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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On September 14 2015 08:30 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 07:47 Klowney wrote:
Archons could use a buff/change. I would give it a passive that creates a storm when it dies but double aoe and duration. Would make it alot more interesting and useful than what it is now. For example when a Protoss army is retreating, leave a Archon at a ramp to zone out the opponent. This isn't MOBA or Diablo 2 though. You can already do that with forcefields but I don't know how viable they're in LotV after the last few months I've not played it.
Forcefields are barely used. Some useful early game while expanding but relatively useless pvp vs adept, relatively useless past the early game against zerg and i don't see much niche to abuse them vs terran
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On September 14 2015 06:55 LSN wrote:
Well there are no real alternatives therefore we all probably gonna buy it. But that doesn't give any information about how long ppl are going to stay and have fun with the game.
If you don't understand what I say about the meta its your problem not mine. Just try to remember how many times on streams you hear that someone is put on a timer for this or that reason. If small disadvantages already put you on a timer due to boosted macro that makes little advantages weigh higher than they should the game gets boring to me. You are free to think what you like tho, I am stating my opinion.
But its not a viable option...
or is it?
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On September 12 2015 19:45 MaximilianKohler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2015 19:15 LDaVinci wrote:On September 12 2015 19:05 MaximilianKohler wrote:On September 11 2015 03:40 -Archangel- wrote:
Oh well this settles it. I will skip LotV just like I did HotS and find better RTS to play. At least they saved me the money. Agreed. I skipped HOTS as well due to the swarm host, widow mine, MSC, lack of zerg answer to forcefields, etc.. There is no way I'm buying LOTV if they don't make some major changes like removing the macro boosters, implementing the Hot mineral economy, implementing "depth of micro" fixes, pathing, etc.. Well I'm going to save you some time. They won't do Hot economy, and they will most probably have some macro mechanic. So you don't have to worry about buying the game and you can move on to another one. Try Dota, apparently from what I read here, it's a very well balanced/designed game. Just hope you like farming creep for 10 minutes. I can't stand MOBAs. One of the things I hate about LOTV is them making it more like MOBAs.
Someone made this thread...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/494688-rts-vs-moba-not-defined-by-macro-mechanics
For you.
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Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol)
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol)
Adepts are not even that great past the early game, They're strong in low number but they're fat, have only 5 range and scale poorly with upgrades. They can't fight stimmed bio very well unless it's low numbers vs low numbers - people tend to build chargelots, templar and disruptors a lot past the early game instead.
The being fat thing is quite important because only a small fraction of them can fire if you make a lot of them without a great concave/flank and you can't stutter step forwards into stimmed bio because that will help the terran army attack more than it will help your army
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On September 14 2015 14:08 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol) Adepts are not even that great past the early game, They're strong in low number but they're fat, have only 5 range and scale poorly with upgrades. They can't fight stimmed bio very well unless it's low numbers vs low numbers - people tend to build chargelots, templar and disruptors a lot past the early game instead. The being fat thing is quite important because only a small fraction of them can fire if you make a lot of them without a great concave/flank and you can't stutter step forwards into stimmed bio because that will help the terran army attack more than it will help your army
Pro players negate these adept problems in the midgame by moving the shades on top of your army, negating any micro that you can do and assuring that all adepts can shoot.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On September 14 2015 14:15 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 14:08 Cyro wrote:On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol) Adepts are not even that great past the early game, They're strong in low number but they're fat, have only 5 range and scale poorly with upgrades. They can't fight stimmed bio very well unless it's low numbers vs low numbers - people tend to build chargelots, templar and disruptors a lot past the early game instead. The being fat thing is quite important because only a small fraction of them can fire if you make a lot of them without a great concave/flank and you can't stutter step forwards into stimmed bio because that will help the terran army attack more than it will help your army Pro players negate these adept problems in the midgame by moving the shades on top of your army, negating any micro that you can do and assuring that all adepts can shoot.
That's not a major problem when you have stim, medivacs (and/or other support) and 100+ supply which isn't that hard to reach considering the insane economy at the moment.
Just don't go poking around with your unsupported bio army and get yourself into a bad position.
Anything starport makes it a pain in the ass for toss to use super-adept-heavy armies - it's not that hard for terrans to make some medivacs and liberators. They're also EXTREMELY vulnerable to ghosts as EMP takes 74% of their health and ghosts deal bonus damage to light.
Straight unsupported bio just doesn't work as well in legacy but bio support is stronger than ever - MMMGL is extremely strong. Just watch pro level PvT (huk is streaming ATM) if you don't believe that comp is any good
EGHuK: pVt
EGHuK: so impossible
EGHuK: right now..
Neaphilim: @EGHuK what do you think of carriers ?
EGHuK: carriers are ok
EGHuK: but right now
EGHuK: there is no answer
EGHuK: PvT
EGHuK: terran will get nerfed for sure
EGHuK: mules right now are insane
EGHuK: betterthen hots mules even
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First of all, I still think the Economy needs focus while we still have a chance. I understand if many have given up on this, but I won't until the game is released. Mining out bases faster.. what I've noticed, is that this doesn't spread out the battlefield. It requires expanding instead of promoting it, and the income rate plus workers/base doesn't change.
It's not too late to reconsider this direction, which may have a beneficial effect on the game. Think about what removing 2 patches/base would do to the game.. it would reduce the mineral income rate when fully saturated, and require less workers per base. It would also still promote faster expanding, even beyond 3 bases. I've brought this up before and it gets disregarded as being too similar to FRB models.. however, I am seriously trying to ask us to consider that this precise model could work better than what we have now.
Here's why I hope we could try to increase the 6 patches per base to 1600 minerals each. Staying on bases a little longer could become a more interesting dynamic if given the chance to get tested.. expanding will be done once players realize they want to keep making workers, or get a faster income rate.
Losing half of the income rate after mining out half of a base just feels unnatural, and seems like it could confuse a lot of players of previous games upon release. Please consider that they won't notice a difference until it's too late, and even explaining this in a tutorial will still mean many players won't get it.
Beyond that, mining out bases faster means moving onto the next base faster, rather than spreading out bases. If you don't let players sit at a base as long as they did before, they won't spread out.. they'll just move on faster. Reducing the amount of patches per base makes players desire expanding even faster than now.. to make use of workers and get a better income rate. The saturated income rate right now is a little too high on the mineral side, and this could help to even that out.
I know you've heard this before, but even if you don't like to consider alternatives just think of the benefits that could arise, and whether or not it'd be more fun. I see a 6-patch-per-base economy being the best way to get games to play out more like they did in Brood War. More spread out armies, less deathballs, less full saturation mineral rate, risk of losing 22 workers in a few seconds cut down to 18 instead, more room for mapmakers to create more base locations, etc.
Beyond that, macro mechanics are on the right track. Here's some ideas to arrive at a compromise, since I know Blizz is 50-50 on it at the moment. Chrono should activate right after Cyber Core is built. It should have a cooldown of 20 seconds before you can move it. It should still remain on a building until it is moved, but should provide the same efficiency boost it does now for about 10 seconds, then decrease in efficency after that to where it is now.
Terran MULEs should stay the same as before.. but only allow one MULE per mineral patch. Zerg Injects should remain similar as they were before, but allow a Zerg to pre-Spawn another round of Larvae before the current round has been spawned. This means they can queue it up one time during a cycle. I wouldn't mind trying it at 20 Energy instead, and only spawning 3 larvae instead of 4.
Adept upgrade should cut the duration of Psionic Transfer in half. This creates a lot more interesting micro situations in lategame. I've noticed most Protoss don't Transfer in larger battles, because it takes too long and it's actually better to just tank with them and move back. Replacing the Shield upgrade with a Psionic Transfer upgrade makes more sense from a lategame micro perspective, and makes them a little less tanky.
Liberator should do less damage.. vs both Ground and Air. However, they could automatically get AG mode once a Fusion Core is built. No upgrade required. The fact this unit can do Splash vs Air and target a pretty large Ground area already makes it a great unit when supported.. for that reason, it doesn't need a high damage rate. It's got great utility instead.
Cyclone should instead increase it's damage rate over time when Locked-On. This means you'll have to micro it, but it gives the other player time to run away before the lock-on damage increases. That seems like it'd be a very unique and fun style to have for the unit.
Disruptor should be able to micro itself backwards after firing it's shot. I think with that change alone, it wouldn't need a cost decrease at all. Maybe make it a Robo Bay upgrade. Interceptors might need a little more time before they blow up, and Tempests could use a Speed Boost upgrade on Fleet Beacon that wears off after a few seconds. Tempest should also fire less often, but do more damage.
I'm glad we're trying Overlord Drops on Evolution Chamber. That has always felt like the right place to me.. but what about making it into a unique evolution from the Overlord, on par with the Overseer? I recommend calling them Overtakers, and giving them a slightly different unit model that requires detection from the opponent to see.
I really like the direction we're headed here.. but I ask that you please take these ideas into serious consideration. This is well thought-out over many months of watching and playing, and I ask you to not disregard the possibility of still changing the model until release. We should want this game to be as fun as it can be, and I want you to ask yourself if the LotV economy feels fun, or tedious. If this isn't what you want, how can we improve it? Now is the time to ask this question.. if we can do this with macro mechanics, we can ask about the economy as well.
Just remember, this game should still be fun to play above all else.. not deliberately daunting. I hope you can see this suggestion to reduce patches to 6 per base at 1600 each achieves the goals we have of faster expanding and spread out battles. I strongly believe now is the time to make this change.. once and for all, the community could enjoy an economic model with 18 workers per base and a lower saturated mineral income. It's easy for new players to understand, and it makes the game more fun for old players in a multitude of ways. Please consider that this is the last chance to implement this. I am not asking us to abandon our goals, but to build upon them. In time, we will be glad we did.
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After playing a good bit of Starbow I completely disagree that the presence of macro boosters makes SC2 harder. I think it makes it easier.
With macro boosters you have a much longer period of time where you don't need to be making units. You can go back and inject every 40 seconds or so and make your wave of units. If your injects are slightly off it doesn't make that big of a difference because percentage-wise, you won't be missing that many units since we're dealing with much higher numbers of units overall.
However, in Starbow, with the 3 larva max, it REALLY hurts you if you're not constantly producing units. I found it much harder to spend all my money in Starbow. A 1000 mineral bank in SC2 can be spent quite quickly. Not so much in Starbow.
On September 14 2015 10:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2015 19:45 MaximilianKohler wrote:On September 12 2015 19:15 LDaVinci wrote:On September 12 2015 19:05 MaximilianKohler wrote:On September 11 2015 03:40 -Archangel- wrote:
Oh well this settles it. I will skip LotV just like I did HotS and find better RTS to play. At least they saved me the money. Agreed. I skipped HOTS as well due to the swarm host, widow mine, MSC, lack of zerg answer to forcefields, etc.. There is no way I'm buying LOTV if they don't make some major changes like removing the macro boosters, implementing the Hot mineral economy, implementing "depth of micro" fixes, pathing, etc.. Well I'm going to save you some time. They won't do Hot economy, and they will most probably have some macro mechanic. So you don't have to worry about buying the game and you can move on to another one. Try Dota, apparently from what I read here, it's a very well balanced/designed game. Just hope you like farming creep for 10 minutes. I can't stand MOBAs. One of the things I hate about LOTV is them making it more like MOBAs. Someone made this thread... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/494688-rts-vs-moba-not-defined-by-macro-mechanicsFor you.
No, you misunderstood me. I'm in favor of macro booster removal.
On September 14 2015 17:54 frostalgia wrote:
First of all, I still think the Economy needs focus while we still have a chance.
I absolutely agree. But they're completely ignoring us on this.
They ignore the Hot mineral economy, and they ignore posts like this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18705072378#20
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As a zerg i hate that we are going back to injecting, i love the time you have to do all the "fun" parts of the game, insted of useing most of the time with the inject cycle
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Will they ever fix the viper? I just watched some games on Avilo's stream, that unit just wrecks vikings its supposed counter. Broodlord viper is literally unstoppable.
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On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol)
terrans are not doing "ok" they're literally shitting on protoss, adepts aren't doing nearly as much damage since the mule is back
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On September 15 2015 07:08 woopr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol) Liberators are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason protoss is doing ok right now are Adepts but as soon as they nerf Adepts Protoss are going to get shit on by liberators, bio and mines (lol)
Geez, that is not how countering an argument works. You may as well go the Donald Trump route and call him a moron, a loser etc.
The fact is that Adepts are overly strong early game and especially so when paired with the Warp Prism as a follow up. The fact that Liberator is also very strong does not bear on this argument. The Adept needs weakening early game, and strengthening later game.
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On September 15 2015 03:43 Loccstana wrote:
Will they ever fix the viper? I just watched some games on Avilo's stream, that unit just wrecks vikings its supposed counter. Broodlord viper is literally unstoppable.
protip, don't watch avilo for objective analysis on balance.
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Man, Mules and Chronoboost just need to go. Just remove them and balance it from there. This is getting ridiculous.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On September 15 2015 07:14 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol) terrans are not doing "ok" they're literally shitting on protoss, adepts aren't doing nearly as much damage since the mule is back
What do you think is the best way to deal with a terran who gets to midgame safely and builds ~marine marauder medivac ghost liberator?
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I can't believe they ignore economical ideas... I feel like it would tremendously help the game. No need to explain as lot of people already did.
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On September 15 2015 07:14 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 11:24 Lexender wrote:
Adepts are so ridiculous right now, I'm amazed by the fact that they think they are ok, the only reason terran is doing ok right now are liberators but as soon as they nerf liberators terrans are going to get shit on by adepts, warp prism and pylons (lol) terrans are not doing "ok" they're literally shitting on protoss, adepts aren't doing nearly as much damage since the mule is back
Yeah they are, they're both ridiculous, diference is liberators are ridiculous in a way that they counter adepts ridiculousness, both need heavy nerfs
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EPT
