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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18596068245?page=1#0
Hello everyone – we’re back with another community feedback update. We’ve got a number of changes to discuss, so let’s jump into it!
Next step for macro mechanics
Our team’s been a close to a 50-50 split on whether or not we should revert the macro mechanics to be the same as Heart of the Swarm or continue pursuing this direction. After many discussions, we realized that, at the root of it, it boils down to this: Are we chasing the best design for each of these mechanics or is taking away a skill that players have been practicing for years better for the game in the long-term?
Let’s take a look at each of the macro mechanics:
Terran Mule
After testing various versions, we’ve realized that we’re not really making mule macro all that much easier, since it was already fairly easy to execute in HotS. In terms of design, however, we believe losing the energy tension with the Orbital Command spells is not a good thing. Therefore, both in terms of saving clicks and in terms of better design, we believe the HotS one is better, and we’d like to go back to it .
For the late game mule spamming issue, if we were to go back to HotS, we would need to do something about it. The current thought is to not have Mules overlap with other Mules on patches so that the Mule dropping in the later stages of the game doesn’t get so out of hand.
Protoss Chrono Boost
With the version currently in the beta, chronoboost is cast by the Nexus closest to the target, and there are suggestions to change that to other methods. One thing we’re noticing here is there’s really no ideal way to handle how we move the Chrono Boosts around - no matter which rule set we go with, we haven’t found a way to always guarantee an optimal use case. Therefore, we believe it’s best to just increase the cooldown of the ability so that it’s easier to not make a mistake in terms of the same Nexus recasting Chronoboost on multiple things in quick succession.
One other thing to note here is that one of our core design values in StarCraft II is to only make changes that are significant improvements. The reason is that if something is only a slight improvement to an existing thing, we don’t believe it warrants players having to relearn that mechanic. Therefore, for Protoss, it’ll be a question of exactly how much of an improvement this new version would be versus the old one.
Zerg Spawn Larva
This mechanic is the most difficult because, design-wise, the current version is arguably better, however players are losing a skill they’ve been practicing for years, which isn't ideal. Internally, we’re testing a different version for Zerg. We currently have autocast removed, but it is possible to stack Spawn Larva on a Hatchery. E.g. I can cast Spawn Larva three times on the same Hatchery at the same time, and each one will pop one after another. This might be closer to what we’re looking for: For a top-end pro player to gain the maximum effect of Spawn Larva, he’ll need to be as precise with the casts as he needs to be in HotS, but lower-level players who aren’t close to mastering this technique will have a much easier time with this version.
Because this is such a major change, we’ve been going through major iterations during the beta. We’d like to thank you guys once again for the continued discussions, playtesting, and feedback in this area. This really gives a good example of how we iterate and explore various things internally and it’s cool having everyone be a part of this.Please try to focus your feedback on which version is best for the game, and let us know so that we can make a good decision.
Adept
With the stronger Terran and Zerg macro mechanics in the latest patch, we’re not really seeing the same Adept strength that we used to. Also in exploring PvP more, it’s not quite clear to us that mass Adepts are the best composition in the later stages of the game. We will be continuing to test the Adept armored flag change and potential changes to their upgrade internally, but we’d like to continue testing the current version a bit longer in the beta.
We just don’t want to be too quick to judge on the Adept strength at this point, because it’s not uncommon for players to overreact when core units are added. One good example here is when the Marauder was first introduced back in Wings of Liberty, for a very long time, even after the game launched, we were getting so much feedback, especially from Korean players, that Marauders were completely broken and needed to be nerfed. We never did nerf them, but they’ve been seen as well balanced all throughout HotS.
Photon Overcharge
The defensive case with Photon Overcharge in the early to mid -game is too strong right now. It’s too difficult to do both harassment type and frontal type attacks against Protoss in the early game. Obviously, this is not what we want from the new ability, so we’re exploring potential nerfs. We’re thinking of either doing a duration nerf to 10-15 seconds, or a cost nerf to 50. We’re slightly leaning towards a duration nerf at the moment because it is a lot more adjustable going forward as we fine-tune the balance of this ability. Though we currently were not concerned with offensive Pylon rushes, this nerf will weaken this tactic.
Overlord transport upgrade
We’ve explored a few different options here, but your popular suggestion of having an Evolution Chamber requirement looks to have worked out well. It’s an additional investment in order to be able to drop early, doesn’t necessarily reduce the timing at when Zerg can drop, and it’s easier to scout and react against. We would most likely try this out in the next balance update. Thank you for your many suggestions.
Disruptor
We’re playing around with different cost versions of the Disruptor so that it’s not as heavy of a gas investment. The general idea here is to reduce the gas cost needed so that Disruptors can see more play across the board. We’ll try to finalize the numbers for the next balance update.
Maps in Legacy of the Void
As we’ve done multiple times in the past, we definitely know that if a map isn’t completely standard, a majority of players will initially think it’s a bad map. However, this is one of the areas that we would really like to push back because the positive effects of having a more diverse map pool is just too good for the game. We see this in HotS season 3 and even more so in the various tournaments going on in LotV, in terms of how different each map plays.
Therefore, we will continue pushing a unique and diverse map pool in LotV for now. We’ve clearly seen how stale the game becomes both in terms of playing and watching when we’ve had map pools that everyone agrees is ‘good.’ The matches are all very standard and similar in terms of playstyle, and we want to clearly avoid this from ever happening again. We feel strongly on this point: A truly good map pool for SC2 is one with lots of map diversity, not a map pool that has 7 of the same type of standard maps.
With that said, because we are constantly exploring new things that can potentially be cool for the game, obviously there is a higher chance of making a mistake. Maps such as Daedalus Point are examples of something that we tried that didn’t work out. However, we believe the positives that we gain from pushing map diversity outweigh the negatives. If necessary, it’s easy to remove a map that doesn’t work out mid-season, and we’ve seen from experience this doesn’t happen on a regular basis.
Thank you everyone for the continued help and support during the development of Legacy of the Void. We are looking forward to hearing your constructive thoughts.
Polls
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Terran Mule changeYay (128) 48% Nay (96) 36% Meh (42) 16% 266 total votes Your vote: Terran Mule change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Protoss Chrono Boost changeMeh (126) 60% Nay (43) 20% Yay (41) 20% 210 total votes Your vote: Protoss Chrono Boost change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Zerg Spawn Larva changeNay (128) 47% Yay (106) 39% Meh (37) 14% 271 total votes Your vote: Zerg Spawn Larva change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
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Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
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I guess we're going to get something fairly reasonable in the end. It's like watching a thought process that could be done in twenty seconds being painstakingly extended longer and longer.
Fine tuning, I'm waiting for you. And yeah, warpgate change sucks, split energy and warp-in power.
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RIP no macro mechanics... Removing them was the best thing that ever happened to sc2, and all we needed was some rebalancing... But blizzard too lazy, prob being pushed to release the game too early, and reverting everything back to HotS status.
So disappointed
Also, on the larva stack... Do they not realize people are just going to make a ton of queen and keep infinity stacking larva on the same hatch? How is that ever gonna work lmao... That cannot be balanced
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On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote:
Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
Yeah. Its like... They are using the beta to make tests! How absurd is that?
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Add me to the disappointed list.
Still BS that they claim their going to "handle the late game mule issue" and their fix for not stacking on minerals isn't going to make all that much of a difference. The problem is the fact that players still can be REWARDED for FORGETTING to drop mules... Which makes their whole logic as bringing back mules a silly argument... "Not really making macro that much easier"... of course not! Because mules took very little work to begin with relative to other races, and got the most reward for completely forgetting about their mechanics..
Zerg changes are equally retarded... they ADMIT the new version is better design. So why bring back a badly designed mechanic??? If players need a "skill" to master why not make a skill that contributes to the game strategically??? But no... lets bring back a mechanic that was relatively unbalanced since the beginning, and is admittedly badly designed...
Risk vs reward is still skewed, not to mention the obvious exploits...
Makes no damn sense...
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On September 11 2015 03:15 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I guess we're going to get something fairly reasonable in the end. It's like watching a thought process that could be done in twenty seconds being painstakingly extended longer and longer.
Fine tuning, I'm waiting for you. And yeah, warpgate change sucks, split energy and warp-in power.
I liked how it is now, a lot people do, at the end I think they were just trying, but since a part of the playbase is so hell-bend on the way they think and are against changing what they consider "traditional RTS" they decided to not go through.
Either I hope they come with good solutions instead of being preassured into reverting everything.
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I'm not sure if they have thought the inject suggestion through properly... So if I build 6queens and inject a hatchery 6times, I'm done injecting for 40seconds*6=4mins. And still get 4larva per inject? Well, ok?! So I get perfect injects through building multiple queens... and get to keep the 4 larva per inject?
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On September 11 2015 03:23 ffadicted wrote:
Also, on the larva stack... Do they not realize people are just going to make a ton of queen and keep infinity stacking larva on the same hatch? How is that ever gonna work lmao... That cannot be balanced
My thought exactly. We are going to see like 20 queens per base. Its like building additional barracks that can attack, heal and spawn creep. They can also become invisible (burrow) and move.
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On September 11 2015 03:30 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 03:15 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I guess we're going to get something fairly reasonable in the end. It's like watching a thought process that could be done in twenty seconds being painstakingly extended longer and longer.
Fine tuning, I'm waiting for you. And yeah, warpgate change sucks, split energy and warp-in power. I liked how it is now, a lot people do, at the end I think they were just trying, but since a part of the playbase is so hell-bend on the way they think and are against changing what they consider "traditional RTS" they decided to not go through. Either I hope they come with good solutions instead of being preassured into reverting everything.
It's not the pressure or the rush that is wrong, it's the damn fact they tried to remove something as game changing as the macro mechanics 5 months into the beta. You'd think those people would have some insight, and try those huge magnitude changes in the early stages. But no, we wasted 5 months, add 3 weeks to that now... And yeah they're going to rush it to still get a post Blizzcon release.
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There is still a limit to larva per hatchery ~ 19. So 20 queens on one base won't work. But 3 could work.
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On September 11 2015 03:37 Tuczniak wrote:
There is still a limit to larva per hatchery ~ 19. So 20 queens on one base won't work. But 3 could work.
The injects pop one after another. As I understand it, you just inject 20times and then produce as usual whenever one inject pops and the next timer begins.
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Oh well this settles it. I will skip LotV just like I did HotS and find better RTS to play. At least they saved me the money.
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Didn't notice they still want to have overcharge on pylons. Meh.
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Noo, i started playing again soon as inject larva was removed and will absolutely stop again if i have to inject larva!  (!!!
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On September 11 2015 03:23 ffadicted wrote:
RIP no macro mechanics... Removing them was the best thing that ever happened to sc2, and all we needed was some rebalancing... But blizzard too lazy, prob being pushed to release the game too early, and reverting everything back to HotS status.
So disappointed
Also, on the larva stack... Do they not realize people are just going to make a ton of queen and keep infinity stacking larva on the same hatch? How is that ever gonna work lmao... That cannot be balanced
I'm sure it will be balanced accordingly just like Spawn Larvae was.
Kind of uh, disappointed? There is still sooooo many issues going on with the game for all races and these updates just seem to be focusing on reverting changes that were excellent for the game which in and of itself is a huge disappointment.
Zerg
- Infestors are still unviable i don't care what the trolls say, this unit is crap especially compared to the mighty Templar, fungal Growth is shit for how hard it is to land and how much risk it puts your Infestors in and NP is just wtf still in the game 4 years later.
- Ultralisks are still a move/bad pathing and now they are just OP in ZvZ and vs. bio end game
- Overlord drop is still stupid and should be moved to Overseer
- Zerg anti air is still shit Corruptors barely edge out over Liberators
- Corruptor ability is still thoughtless and lazy
Terran
- Cylone is still a complete garbage no skill unit that should just be changed to the damn Goliath
- The Thor is still in the game even though Liberators shit on Mutalisks plenty good on their own
- Tanks are still awful
- Medivac tank pick up is probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen besides the Cyclone/warhound and only signifies David Kim's infatuation with "fancy micro plays" instead of actual solid unit roles.
- What the fuck is up with the Ghost right now? The new ability is really dumb
- Why are Marauders still nerfed? They were never OP to begin with, removing Concussive would have been WAY smarter for balance/design.
- Why has the Liberator not been nerfed appropriately? It's role totally overlaps with the Thor and Viking it's just really really stupid to have a unit that is so damn good at everything. Even if there are ways to deal with it, why not just remove the Thor and Viking and have the Liberator be the de facto Starport unit in that case?
Protoss
- Adepts are still OP in the early game especially vs. Terran and still fall off hard past the midgame
- Immortal active is probably the laziest change I've seen ever
- Warp Prisms are STUPID strong especially on maps with lots of air space
- Disruptors seem like half way balanced but the cool down is kind of wtf during bigger fights
- Voidray is still a noob a move unit that either gets shut down or highlights how bad Zerg anti air can truly be
- MSC is still a hero unit in a complex RTS = bad
There is alot of things that need to be done and all this update said to me was "We have no clue what we are doing at this point so we are just trying to make everything viable and make every unit at least semi usable and uh, well good luck have fun please keep testing because we are lost".
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at least they try to make big changes (mechanics) in the game, but like Wire said, they should have tested it at the beginning of the beta.
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iam disappointed.. plz blizzard team from 1998 come back to future ;/
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On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote:
Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
Agreed. I'm generally a Blizzard cheerleader compared to most TL posters but this just screams "We'd like to but it will be too much work." I was genuinely excited to see macro mechanics gone. It should reveal the player with better army movement, army micro, army positioning and all those user-apparent reasons to win. But now since they're just going back to HotS mechanics we're back to the same old boat where 9/10 the person with simple better raw mechanics will win. This is lazy.
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none of this matters if the econ is still the trash it is, maybe, if they have realized the mistake theyve made with macro mechanics they now should realize that the new econ is hated by a lot of current players. so even if we were 50-50 theyd have to revert it or tune it to something that we all can find decent
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EPT
