On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote: Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
we're back to the same old boat where 9/10 the person with simple better raw mechanics will win
And isn't that... great ? Strategy should only be the distinguishing factor between people of the same mechanical level.
We should rename the genre to RTM real time mechanical game
I have zero interest in people with great strategic thinking but no mechanics to back it up. I'm very happy with SC2 being a mechanically demanding game. If you disagree with that point of view that's absolutely fine, that's just a personal opinion, nothing to get upset about.
The problem, outside of making the game almost impossible to get into, is that it rewards only one style of play. Outside of some lucky un scouted timing attacks and cheese the mechanically superior player will just outright win all the time. Lets take the below radar chart. The person (since I was lazy aka "Series 1") will will a disproportionate amount of times compared to the other two players simply because he is superior at one facet of the game. The game should strive to reward all aptitudes not just simply muscle memory.
Why would it reward only one style of play ? A mechanically sound player can still choose to go defensive (Rain vs Maru) or craft the perfect all-in to dismantle his opponent's predictable build (Polt vs Classic on Overgrowth). What I don't want to see is some 100 APM Protoss taking out games of INnoVation because he so obviously outsmarted him with his delayed oracle into delayed DTs.
Therefore, we believe it’s best to just increase the cooldown of the ability so that it’s easier to not make a mistake in terms of the same Nexus recasting Chronoboost on multiple things in quick succession.
Another change that makes it even harder to use for people with decent mechanics and maybe for new/infrequent players too. Oh i put it on the wrong thing? nvm can't move it
So is Protoss the only race left with an automated macro mechanic? I'm not sure how that will go over when people are already complaining about HotS Protoss being too easy.
On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote: Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
I don't think you understand that they are actually balancing it. They balanced mules for lategame, they are working on a chrono fix, and they found a middle ground for injects.
But we have to face it, they are in crunch time for release and they all know they can't stay in MM limbo for another couple of weeks because it delays valuable development time. With the release of the new cinematic a couple days away I'm sure the higher-ups are pressuring the balance team non-stop. I honestly like these changes and I want to see where they go, and I hope most of the people here would agree to be open to all the changes blizz are making.
On September 11 2015 04:21 jalstar wrote: So is Protoss the only race left with an automated macro mechanic? I'm not sure how that will go over when people are already complaining about HotS Protoss being too easy.
I understand the last sentence of the paragraph about overcharge that they're willing to come back to the HotS version for CB too.
On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote: Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
we're back to the same old boat where 9/10 the person with simple better raw mechanics will win
And isn't that... great ? Strategy should only be the distinguishing factor between people of the same mechanical level.
We should rename the genre to RTM real time mechanical game
I have zero interest in people with great strategic thinking but no mechanics to back it up. I'm very happy with SC2 being a mechanically demanding game. If you disagree with that point of view that's absolutely fine, that's just a personal opinion, nothing to get upset about.
The problem, outside of making the game almost impossible to get into, is that it rewards only one style of play. Outside of some lucky un scouted timing attacks and cheese the mechanically superior player will just outright win all the time. Lets take the below radar chart. The person (since I was lazy aka "Series 1") will will a disproportionate amount of times compared to the other two players simply because he is superior at one facet of the game. The game should strive to reward all aptitudes not just simply muscle memory.
Why would it reward only one style of play ? A mechanically sound player can still choose to go defensive (Rain vs Maru) or craft the perfect all-in to dismantle his opponent's predictable build (Polt vs Classic on Overgrowth). What I don't want to see is some 100 APM Protoss taking out games of INnoVation because he so obviously outsmarted him with his delayed oracle into delayed DTs.
Your paranoid statement about Innovation losing to some 100 APM Protoss will not happen even in macro-less LotV. Because LotV should, in theory, reward the player who has fast decision making and very strong multi-task. And yes you still have macro in LotV because you need to constantly move workers around and expand out. It is there it is just less important. But I'll also circle around and ask this -- why not? Is it the worst thing in the world when the Dolphins (sorry American Football) busted out the never-before-seen Wildcat formation against the Patriots and beat them? Is it terrible that Virginia Tech used a exotic defensive formation to beat Ohio State last year? No. Just because you cannot adapt to a situation in a game means you didn't deserve to win the game.
Now your previous statement is comparing two top level pro gamers. This is a problem I've been having lately with TL in regards to macro-less and LotV direction in general. You are comparing two people who are already nearly perfect in the mechanics department. Starcraft should not be a game you are only allowed to play if you've already put in 1000 hours to perfect your mechanics. That is not a viable game for the future. People are trying to perserve this sacred ground that is the pro gamer scene at the cost of the actual longevity of the game. The game needs to be accessible from the very first instance you load it up and play around with it. At the moment it is not. You can only start to worry about practicing and working on your micro and build variance once you've secured enough hours into the game to have at least passable mechanics. The game needs to be fun at all skill levels not just the highest. The game needs to reward players for player versus player interactions not just player versus mechanics interactions. Take any Diamond replay and you could point out 100 mechanical mistakes they made that if they didn't they could have won the game regardless of any micro failings. How many times can you load up a Diamond vs Diamond replay and try and boil something down to a player versus player interaction as the true cause of a loss? Probably less than half.
Not fine of their idea though, what I'll suggest to them is the following proposition :
When you inject, every 25 energy above 50 energy gives you one extra larva. So a 100 energy queen would gives you 5 larvas (and consume all its energy), which is less than one queen that inject every 50 energy (6 larvas) so good player gain something while it's less punishing for lesser player.
On September 11 2015 03:44 Schakal111 wrote: iam disappointed.. plz blizzard team from 1998 come back to future ;/
adding 1 more zero to Pardo's pay rate for working on Brood War will not be enough to buy his interest. SC2 is currently the #4 franchise in the company and being the top designer does not pay well ( in relative terms) which is why its gone from Pardo to Browder to Kim.
On September 11 2015 03:40 -Archangel- wrote: Oh well this settles it. I will skip LotV just like I did HotS and find better RTS to play. At least they saved me the money.
As a random player I'm pre-ordering two copies of LOTV because Blizzard is willing to revert the macro mechanics
Such a good patch . Chrono Boost still sounds a bit awkward though, they should just make it so the last X buildings you chrono will be chrono boosted -- which Nexus does the boosing isn't very important and if a Nexus dies it should be up to the Protoss to see what got un-chronoed and fix it if they want. Queuing larva injects should have some sort of limit I think, being able to queue 8 injects off a full energy Queen just sounds wrong.
On September 11 2015 04:31 Vanadiel wrote: Inject is back. <3
Not fine of their idea though, what I'll suggest to them is the following proposition :
When you inject, every 25 energy above 50 energy gives you one extra larva. So a 100 energy queen would gives you 5 larvas (and consume all its energy), which is less than one queen that inject every 50 energy (6 larvas) so good player gain something while it's less punishing for lesser player.
I think they would have an issue with variable energy for spells in Starcraft. They usually try to make it as predictable as possible without any variations and having something possibly cast for a variable amount may cause some unwanted interactions.
While I personally have no strong opinion one way or the other, do people prefer the SC2 (not WoL) macro mechanics compared to how it was in BW?? I think it's okay to have macro mechanics in the game, but they do not need to be as influential as they are in HotS. Right now (HotS), the macro mechanics are pretty big game-changers. I think it'd be interesting to see how pros would prioritize them if they were only a tiny boost.
I don't mind the larva change, and I think it's alright to have a lot of mechanics in the game, but make them so that they do not have a huge impact. Perhaps there will be some pros who are able to skip out on doing the macro mechanics perfectly, simply because their decision making is better, but the top player will probably have both mastered.
On September 11 2015 04:31 Vanadiel wrote: Inject is back. <3
Not fine of their idea though, what I'll suggest to them is the following proposition :
When you inject, every 25 energy above 50 energy gives you one extra larva. So a 100 energy queen would gives you 5 larvas (and consume all its energy), which is less than one queen that inject every 50 energy (6 larvas) so good player gain something while it's less punishing for lesser player.
Although I like the idea, it seems a little too wordy and complicated. I would suggest something I saw on the reddit thread:
One idea to reward perfect injects: Maybe make it so that for every stacked inject you get one less larva than usual. So if you suddenly bank 50 energy and inject twice you get 4 larva from the first one but only 3 from the second one. That way it would be an acceptable mistake to make but you would get some reward for doing it perfectly.
On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote: Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?!
we're back to the same old boat where 9/10 the person with simple better raw mechanics will win
And isn't that... great ? Strategy should only be the distinguishing factor between people of the same mechanical level.
We should rename the genre to RTM real time mechanical game
I have zero interest in people with great strategic thinking but no mechanics to back it up. I'm very happy with SC2 being a mechanically demanding game. If you disagree with that point of view that's absolutely fine, that's just a personal opinion, nothing to get upset about.
The problem, outside of making the game almost impossible to get into, is that it rewards only one style of play. Outside of some lucky un scouted timing attacks and cheese the mechanically superior player will just outright win all the time. Lets take the below radar chart. The person (since I was lazy aka "Series 1") will will a disproportionate amount of times compared to the other two players simply because he is superior at one facet of the game. The game should strive to reward all aptitudes not just simply muscle memory.
Why would it reward only one style of play ? A mechanically sound player can still choose to go defensive (Rain vs Maru) or craft the perfect all-in to dismantle his opponent's predictable build (Polt vs Classic on Overgrowth). What I don't want to see is some 100 APM Protoss taking out games of INnoVation because he so obviously outsmarted him with his delayed oracle into delayed DTs.
Starcraft should not be a game you are only allowed to play if you've already put in 1000 hours to perfect your mechanics. That is not a viable game for the future.
As long as you don't tone down the mechanics to the point we're playing tic-tac-toe, you'll always needs those countless hours to be able to play competitively. And currently, you don't need 1000 hours to play and have fun. I remember having awesome times when I was playing in silver with zero hotkeys and 20 APM. People just can't deal with the fact they can't invest enough time in the game to learn it properly and think everyone is going to get diamond overnight. Otherwise, you don't need to know how to inject to have fun.
On September 11 2015 04:31 Vanadiel wrote: Inject is back. <3
Not fine of their idea though, what I'll suggest to them is the following proposition :
When you inject, every 25 energy above 50 energy gives you one extra larva. So a 100 energy queen would gives you 5 larvas (and consume all its energy), which is less than one queen that inject every 50 energy (6 larvas) so good player gain something while it's less punishing for lesser player.
How do you control that? I have a 50energy queen, but I don't want to buy 1 larva for 25energy, fuck me? It's essentially a noob-trap and a punishment more than a help to anybody. You don't want to buy 2more larva 33seconds from now for a transfuse or 2 creep tumors.
On September 11 2015 04:35 ZAiNs wrote: Such a good patch . Chrono Boost still sounds a bit awkward though, they should just make it so the last X buildings you chrono will be chrono boosted -- which Nexus does the boosing isn't very important and if a Nexus dies it should be up to the Protoss to see what got un-chronoed and fix it if they want. Queuing larva injects should have some sort of limit I think, being able to queue 8 injects off a full energy Queen just sounds wrong.
I think HotS Chronoboost is just a hundred times better. Just make it less strong so that missing them is more forgiving.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5nEgdFs.jpg)
