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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
right now i have that awful feeling i had back in the wc3 beta when after going in the right direction for one patch they completely reverted directions and from there on just made the game worse and worse it took tft to fix wc3. there wont be another chance to fix lotv im afraid. all my hope is in mods at this point. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
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gTank
Austria2559 Posts
On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote: In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote: You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. | ||
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
On September 11 2015 18:26 Thouhastmail wrote: "Marauder was first introduced back in Wings of Liberty, for a very long time, even after the game launched, we were getting so much feedback, especially from Korean players, that Marauders were completely broken and needed to be nerfed. We never did nerf them, but they’ve been seen as well balanced all throughout HotS." Just letme tell you what they`ve done to Marauders; Concussive Shell requires upgrade Archons become Massive When Zealot Charges, it must give damage at least once well, it is true that they never nerfed Marauder itself, but it sounds quite cherry-picking. Yep, they're full of crap these days. Maybe always... Also, Marauders have bad interactions with a lot of units (Stalkers come to mind) and are getting major nerfs in LotV directly and indirectly, so they're kinda not helping themselves here. | ||
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dust7
199 Posts
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fenix404
United States305 Posts
1. miss chance uphill. Brood War had it. DotA 2 has it. it is %25 chance as it should be. this causes a DISadvantage to the low ground attacking position. DotA 2 went so far as to make wards un-missable, so supports could be more active on the map. this was one-line in the patch notes and it clearly defined its merit. they are not suffering in player numbers or viewer numbers. since the inception of all the WoL all-ins i have felt that the iteration of miss chance uphill would be a blanket nerf to offense and a buff to defense. of course, this would all be due to map terrain. 2. more of the roles from brood war are still missing. look at what was added in HotS, i spoilered for length.:+ Show Spoiler + hellbat: firebat, it's even biological for some odd reason widow mine: spider mine, but they didn't limit them to 3... swarm host: supposed to be zerg's "siege" unit, so they didn't have to add in the lurker, so they wouldn't have to be like brood war. viper: consume and blinding cloud, which is clearly the defiler with dark swarm. unfortunately, without miss chance, blinding cloud becomes the inferior spell. by nature it does not protect the ally and causes the enemy to naturally attempt to escape the cloud by moving into melee range, instead of just standing there and missing at range. tempest: this is for some reason, a zerg guardian given to protoss with the intention of killing brood lords which have another hated element of the whole game: free units. i know i'm not the only one to remember the ZvZ final WoL finals with the brood vs brood battle on daybreak. so this was a band-aid for that issue, instead of reverting zerg's air siege unit to something that didn't create melee units. my point here is that now we see the lurker, and the valkyrie, and the goliath in the game. we should not cut corners and leave out the shield battery, the scourge, the dark archon... where is maelstrom? lockdown? ghost too strong to tweak right? it used to have lockdown not EMP. EMP used to be high up on the tech, well and so did the ghost. these are all things that had specific roles that the races needed to utilize, and there are more missing that would solve a large amount of our current issues. 3. we still have not seen a modification to the mineral curve situation as has been clearly defined by the community. the issue here is not that we don't get DH. the issue is that we said that the solution was to build a curve into the income increase rate graph. it is still a straight line. they indentified a symptom here, again, not the larger disease. they saw the 3-active-base cap symptom and decided that they would simply make that a point that was much harder to reach, thereby mitigating the effects of the 3-base cap. it still exists. their only economic changes have been to move the starting point, and reduce the time spent at each base. full saturation of workers is still the maximum efficiency, even if it will be gone faster. maybe what i'm saying is wrong, but i want to test it myself instead of hearing that they did not like that in internal testing. that is a large enough change that it should have been publicly tested. 4: this part: One other thing to note here is that one of our core design values in StarCraft II is to only make changes that are significant improvements. i also grabbed this one: Like we mentioned in another post, one of the most core philosophies for our SC2 design team is that if the change isn't completely awesome, we don't change it source: + Show Spoiler +http://www.pcgamesn.com/starcraft/starcraft-2-senior-game-designer-not-comfortable-making-big-changes the issue with this is that it is limiting. again, this is my opinion. the game doesn't have to be tedious. we don't need all of brood war's only 12 unit selection and only 1 building per control group. we do need miss chance. we do need maelstrom. and lockdown. and irratdiate. and the shield battery in some form. we need these to not be bastardizations like blinding cloud, and now irradiate for some reason given to zerg, or even fungal growth (basically plague + ensnare). they don't need to be clones, and they don't need to be bound to their old units, like EMP, to work or be easier to use or be exciting. there is a purpose to all of the old starcraft things. we need some changes that might not be the most michael bay to the viewers. all of the races should have their AA AoE units. valk, corsair (phoenix is in a good spot, but the muta switch is still too stronk) and devourer (acid spore, a whole mechanic that is missing, and an awesome one at that). shield battery and the arbiter are both missing. we have all been wanting the mothership to either be a good arbiter or deleted. the mothership core isn't something we need. forcefield is interesting i guess, but we haven't seen any attention to that except for the ravager, yet another band-aid symptom fix. make the big changes. make them now before we can't. miss chance first. after miss chance we can perhaps do some economy RATE work, macro boosters or not seems fine. then we can set our sights on ANY remaining missing Brood War mechanics that were so very starcraft. irradiate, stasis (aoe spell), lockdown, maelstrom, dark swarm, real recall... this is the final game, so we should make sure nothing is missing, even if it means adding more than 2 units to for each race. even if it takes mroe time. most of the models i want are already there, as the lurker has been since WoL beta. blizzard, remember the lurker. we have come full circle. give the universe the starcraft it deserves. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
I can appreciate they need time to balance the game without old macro mechanics and are afraid of that, but seriously they can't revert to old macro mechanics and waste time on that. We know removing macro mechanics was the healthiest thing for SC2 that has happened. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On September 11 2015 11:37 Little-Chimp wrote: Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm almost positive mass terran bitching got mules put back, which caused the automation of everything, which caused even more backlash, which caused Blizz to say fuck it. Who are you blaming here? It sure wasn't the Terran player's fault - try playing ladder when you go 1-10 against opponents and see how much fun it is. I find it incredible that some players have zero understanding of the plight of other players when their race gets almost deleted from the game. The thing I find most incredible though is that Blizzard do not seem to have anyone capable of making a detailed statistical analysis of the impact of changes, and also someone who can look at proposed changes and imagine what might happen if they were abused to the limit (mass Adept). This trial and error approach seems to have too much error in it. | ||
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gTank
Austria2559 Posts
On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote: Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
The vocal minority ruined it for everyone... Again. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote: Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote: You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. It's possible to introduce other game mechanics that require fast and accurate user input other than injects and make them more important for zerg. I.e. creep spread, overlord placement and things that Protoss/Terran don't have that are already pretty important in HotS. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On September 11 2015 18:26 Thouhastmail wrote: "Marauder was first introduced back in Wings of Liberty, for a very long time, even after the game launched, we were getting so much feedback, especially from Korean players, that Marauders were completely broken and needed to be nerfed. We never did nerf them, but they’ve been seen as well balanced all throughout HotS." Just letme tell you what they`ve done to Marauders; Concussive Shell requires upgrade Archons become Massive When Zealot Charges, it must give damage at least once well, it is true that they never nerfed Marauder itself, but it sounds quite cherry-picking. Ultras got buffed. Structures received more HP. All indirect consequences of the Maurauder. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
On September 11 2015 17:15 gTank wrote: Every community feedback update people only whine only to whine against something it seems. Great changes are announced and tried in the beta (its a beta ffs) and people whine. Blizzard responds to the whiners and revert the changes and people whine again. Hell, people where whining about mules/Inject/CB since WoL. People that have not even played the beta should not have a voice to talk about this game, or vote in the polls, or post on blizzard forums about LotV. Couldnt agree more. I am also a little worried that people focus too much on mechanics. I would love to see more strategical depth. The last changes enabled this really well. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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gTank
Austria2559 Posts
On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote: You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. I didn't say that but bringing one platinum game as proof that something is broken is BS. The beta is supposed to try stuff and see if things can be improved but this whining attitude combined with nothing really worthy as proof leads to nothing. Its basically like reading on riots forums when new champions are introduced. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 11 2015 19:44 KeksX wrote: It's possible to introduce other game mechanics that require fast and accurate user input other than injects and make them more important for zerg. I.e. creep spread, overlord placement and things that Protoss/Terran don't have that are already pretty important in HotS. Yes but these things are already in the game and weren't modified (=made more crucial for Z) when auto inject was introduced. IMO if auto inject were to stay, then it would be best to scrap MULES/Chrono and rebalance P/T resource gathering and unit production times. On September 11 2015 19:54 gTank wrote: I didn't say that but bringing one platinum game as proof that something is broken is BS. The beta is supposed to try stuff and see if things can be improved but this whining attitude combined with nothing really worthy as proof leads to nothing. Its basically like reading on riots forums when new champions are introduced. It was my observation, not some sort of indisputable proof. You are free to disagree. But, Blizz surely isn't reverting the changes because of whining, but because it is clear, that things can't stay this way. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
This is part of why zerg has been a nightmare to balance. Zerg macro SHOULD be easy. Getting rid of injects and letting Zerg have the "easier" macro would have allowed for more consistent production from zerg(probably a higher amount of units for most players) and therefor the relative strength of the units could have been adjusted accordingly. Zerg is suppose to be weak units streaming across the map trying to flood the other races. The other races have either stronger units or better positional opportunities that are more cost effective to counter. I was hoping we'd head back that direction, then what would have made a good vs. bad zerg would have been decision making, scouting, flanking, swarming, use of units like viper/infestor(if they were ever fixed right) etc. Now we will just go back to "good zerg he click hatchery every 20 seconds" "bad zerg he forget!" Then they have to keep making zerg units stronger since lower players miss injects and can't produce as much, then higher level players are too strong because they don't miss injects. I don't get why it is so hard to just get rid of inject, reduce hatchery cost to 250 minerals, allow for larva at a hatchery up to 5 larva, adjust spawn times on larva as needed, let zergs make macro hatches as needed, and let the queen be a defensive / creep spread unit as the creep spread is interesting to watch and a better strategic addition than inject. If Zerg macro is too easy or easier, than why do they need a macro mechanic that makes macro harder just for the sake of making it harder? Let Terran and Toss, which the "harder" macro get the mechanics that help make macro a bit more forgiving. Zerg doesn't need a macro mechanic, its OK for zerg to not have it and focus on creep spread and defending any number of early game harass and let T and P have the mechanic that helps. Also this new solution with multiple injects is dumb and you can already see the issues that can come up. It also doesn't really help players that forget to inject, it just means late game you can inject 3 times in a row and then move your queen away from your hatches and help fight, spread creep faster, etc. /Rant. | ||
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gTank
Austria2559 Posts
On September 11 2015 19:55 CheddarToss wrote: Yes but these things are already in the game and weren't modified (=made more crucial for Z) when auto inject was introduced. IMO if auto inject were to stay, then it would be best to scrap MULES/Chrono and rebalance P/T resource gathering and unit production times. It was my observation, not some sort of indisputable proof. You are free to disagree. But, Blizz surely isn't reverting the changes because of whining, but because it is clear, that things can't stay this way. So your observation in plat was so clear that it can't stay like this. Okay I give up. | ||
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