EPTCommunity Feedback Update - September 10 - Page 14
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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adwodon
United Kingdom592 Posts
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
On September 11 2015 21:18 LaLuSh wrote: Removing macro mechanics isn't going to make a dent in how many casuals play SC2. If you make a list of the barriers that keep people from getting into 1v1 multiplayer RTS, you can go on for 2 pages listing genre specific barriers before you get to anything directly design related. Do you think most people know what a-move is? Do you think most people can box select effortlessly and accurately their first times playing an RTS? Do you think most people know they can use shift or control to select multiple buildings or box-select-add more units as opposed to just re-boxselecting every. single. time. ? Do you think most people know to use building hotkeys? Would you like to play a game where you had to repeat the same clicking pattern 300 times every game to repeat the same building action? What about using regular assignable hotkeys as opposed to re-boxselecting everything every single time? How many people have ever played a game where they had to regularly screen switch and keep their attention split between different locations on a map? You can play and enjoy a MOBA without ever screen switching, but can you enjoy an RTS without being comfortable at screen-switching? I could list a million of those and they are all more relevant and bigger barriers than any of the bullshit design decisions we discuss in here. If you are capable in the above and the basics of RTS, I only then do you get to the point where any of this matters. We act like tweaking macro mechanics matters for Starcraft 2's broader casual accessability. No, it only matters for those who are already comfortable with the RTS genre but aren't very good at the game. It matters in that it feeds into their delusion, where they believe inside each and every one of them resides a latent but repressed strategical genious. The only reason this genious hasn't emerged, of course, is because the button mashing nature of the game. This is also their main stated reason of hating the game. So we reduce some clicks here, add some "meaningful" clicks there. The casuals find they still suck. And in the end of this exercise I'm going to bet we haven't changed the accessability of Starcraft in any measurable way whatsoever. Please accept that you can't hit injects reliably (as I have accepted) and enjoy the game at your level. It is just for fun after all. | ||
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_Epi_
Germany158 Posts
The Mule hammer was removed by the change, and you had to think more about using scans or supply drop. Suddenly Banshee opener in LotV was viable again. Except for Zerg, that was honestly not well thought out, but in general the direction was really great. I am really disappointed that they removed this, because there is a lot of macro going on in general. | ||
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Powerfusion
10 Posts
When the upgrades for the adept are changed then this unit should be balanced. Also I made the experiences that the high damage per second rate of stimmed Terran bio with Medivac support wins against the slow damage per second rate of adepts. Furthermore the Adept is looking light and not armored. And armored Adepts would overlap with Stalkers. No protoss will ever build an armored adept when they can build instead a stalker which has more attack range, has more mobility and movement speed, deals more damage per second, can shot air units and has the ability to teleport with blinkmicro. Please just keep the adept light armored and viable. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On September 12 2015 02:01 Ingvar wrote: I'll just quote Lalush from the other thread because it is one of the best takes on macro boosters I have read in a while. Please accept that you can't hit injects reliably (as I have accepted) and enjoy the game at your level. It is just for fun after all. I almost didn't post this, but after reading that comment, I feel I must reply with another perspective that addresses all ranges of players of RTS games. Subject: Game Lifetime Truths - How to make a video game live longer: Make picking up an Alt Race a possibility. I think everybody wants LotV to be successful and being the last installment, to really push SC2 closer to perfection. This post will be thoughts on what fans, maybe even pros, will need to consider as time goes on with their beloved Starcraft. 1. The older you get, the less time you will have to play a game. Unless you are a pro with no family, this is universally true 99.999% of the time. Would you like to continue to enjoy playing Starcraft 2, 3, 5 years from now? More? 2. The longer you play a game, the higher chance that you will get burned out and want some change. 3. A great change of pace is to pick up a new alt race in an RTS or a new character in a fighting game. This also makes you better at the game (Korean pros do it in SC2). 4. Once you are at a high enough level with your main, picking an Alt is only tolerable if learning the Alt takes a few months at most, maybe 3-4 months max to be at least competent and semi-close to your old level, assuming other skills transfer. Years to relearn is not acceptable. 5. Nobody wants to be at level 10 with their main and then have to play level 2 and 3 guys for 9+ months because they need xxxxx hours to be competent with something critical like basic macro mechanics (advanced macro and multitasking can come with time, you understand me I hope). The level 2 and 3 guys don't want to deal with you either, because they don't understand the parts of the game that you do. Nobody is satisfied. 6. Street Fighter 4 was a great example of this at the pro level. One of the best in the world, Daigo, used to only play one main and never an alt (usually Ryu) for years and years. Then SF4 came around, and while he remained at the top most of the time, the game was easier to master than older versions of Street Fighter. Some people were afraid the game was too easy, but the best guys were still the best. He was able to pick up an alt here and there, and eventually switched to a similar but different character. Making macro mechanics less difficult or critical to winning is the way to succeed here. Make the game fun to pick up an alt race, and the game lives twice as long, provides twice as much enjoyment, and even gives insight into the other race's trials and tribulations which creates a better community. | ||
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Ulargg
Netherlands33 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On September 12 2015 03:23 Ulargg wrote: I don't really understand what David Kim's team is doing with putting back the macro mechanics in a simplified form. Starcraft 2 is already one of the hardests games out there. Pleasing the masses generates the revenue for this game; not pleasing the 1% of the game that has already mastered the macro mechanics. The game would be completely dead without a competitive scene so that should always be #1 concern - though it seems obvious enough that we can balance around other difficulty such as strategy, tactics, unit control, multitasking etc to let better players win at the top level. You don't need injects giving 60% of zergs larvae in order to have a clear and large difference between a top 1% zerg from a top 0.1% zerg and in ways it makes the game worse for both the player and the viewer. There are some upsides to such a system but i don't think it's worth it and i'd rather have a game where the #1 zerg in the world uses 4 control groups for his army and very good micro, rather than 1a2a and switching back to base camera to inject because missing a round of injects for 10 seconds would hurt a lot more than pro unit control would help. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On September 12 2015 01:47 Blacklizard wrote: This really is it... all gamers that care about pacing of the game, more diverse plays, and the longevity of SC2 should really think hard on this macro mechanic debate and make their voice known. Going back to HotS macro mechanics is the wrong choice, I am very confident of this. It has been made clear that even the Korean pros by majority want less macro clicking in LotV, which is a very intense game. Do not give up hope, never give up. Ummm hate to break it to you but that part blizzard put in was total bs, they rehashed what the Korean community figures who went to the summit said they then used what they said as a justification for the macro mechanics removal. I've talked to some koreans and they've said that on their message boards all the higher level players are disagreeing with the macro mechanics changes and it's the lower leagues that are in favour, pretty similar to what is happening here. Pretty sure the average current league of people who want the macro mechanics change is gold. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On September 12 2015 04:01 Cyro wrote: The game would be completely dead without a competitive scene so that should always be #1 concern - though it seems obvious enough that we can balance around other difficulty such as strategy, tactics, unit control, multitasking etc to let better players win at the top level. You don't need injects giving 60% of zergs larvae in order to have a clear and large difference between a top 1% zerg from a top 0.1% zerg and in ways it makes the game worse for both the player and the viewer. There are some upsides to such a system but i don't think it's worth it and i'd rather have a game where the #1 zerg in the world uses 4 control groups for his army and very good micro, rather than 1a2a and switching back to base camera to inject because missing a round of injects for 10 seconds would hurt a lot more than pro unit control would help. Agree with that last bit. Did you happen across my Larva Nest idea? On September 12 2015 04:12 Ovid wrote: Ummm hate to break it to you but that part blizzard put in was total bs, they rehashed what the Korean community figures who went to the summit said they then used what they said as a justification for the macro mechanics removal. I've talked to some koreans and they've said that on their message boards all the higher level players are disagreeing with the macro mechanics changes and it's the lower leagues that are in favour, pretty similar to what is happening here. Pretty sure the average current league of people who want the macro mechanics change is gold. Oh boy ... Ha. That's a lot to unpack right there. Let's try: Blizzard is full of shit because of some Korean dudes I talk to say their message boards are a lot like ours here. These dudes are not full of shit. Trust me, some guy on the Internet. And, to pull something out of my ass, I'm going to make a broad generalization about the average current league of posters here on TL, with heavy pejorative undertones. Those are some good lulz, Ovid. You're better than this! | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On September 12 2015 02:01 Ingvar wrote: I'll just quote Lalush from the other thread because it is one of the best takes on macro boosters I have read in a while. Please accept that you can't hit injects reliably (as I have accepted) and enjoy the game at your level. It is just for fun after all. I think many of us are under this disillusion where we think that the macro changes were to make the game more "accessible" Perhaps this is a side effect but if you read anything blizzard posted in the past its that the macro mechanics were too many clicks to expend on something that isn't visible and made the game (lotv, not hots) too complicated due to the new units, spells, and interactions. Idc if my injects are perfect. I do care that a terran player can spend energy on mules all at once and protoss can dump all their chrono onto gateways while I'm stuck banking energy I can't spend bc I got into a micro battle with a couple liberators harassing my mineral lines while an army is knocking at my front door. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Agree with that last bit. Did you happen across my Larva Nest idea? I did not | ||
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Magnifico
1958 Posts
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quillian
United States318 Posts
I can cast Spawn Larva three times on the same Hatchery at the same time, and each one will pop one after another. and what happens when players start building multiple queens per hatchery, spamming 3 sets of injects for insane larvae quantities? Do they think for 15 seconds before implementing these changes? | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 12 2015 01:47 Blacklizard wrote: This really is it... all gamers that care about pacing of the game, more diverse plays, and the longevity of SC2 should really think hard on this macro mechanic debate and make their voice known. Going back to HotS macro mechanics is the wrong choice, I am very confident of this. It has been made clear that even the Korean pros by majority want less macro clicking in LotV, which is a very intense game. Do not give up hope, never give up. No thats not what they said and it is not clear. | ||
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Haighstrom
United Kingdom197 Posts
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On September 12 2015 01:47 Blacklizard wrote: This really is it... all gamers that care about pacing of the game, more diverse plays, and the longevity of SC2 should really think hard on this macro mechanic debate and make their voice known. Going back to HotS macro mechanics is the wrong choice, I am very confident of this. It has been made clear that even the Korean pros by majority want less macro clicking in LotV, which is a very intense game. Do not give up hope, never give up. Agree. On September 12 2015 02:01 Ingvar wrote: I'll just quote Lalush from the other thread because it is one of the best takes on macro boosters I have read in a while. Please accept that you can't hit injects reliably (as I have accepted) and enjoy the game at your level. It is just for fun after all. This is a good point for the OPPOSITE of what you (and maybe he) intended. This is basically stating that bad player will still be bad players, good players will still be good players, and the macro mechanics do not make a difference in that. Which means we should be supporting the BEST DESIGN DECISION. And even Blizzard admits going back to HotS manual is an inferior design in their post. | ||
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DJZest
Germany16 Posts
On September 11 2015 03:15 [PkF] Wire wrote: I guess we're going to get something fairly reasonable in the end. It's like watching a thought process that could be done in twenty seconds being painstakingly extended longer and longer. Fine tuning, I'm waiting for you. And yeah, warpgate change sucks, split energy and warp-in power. I cannot understand how someone like you is allowed to keep spouting out shit on TL. Get banned. Stupid idiot. User was warned for this post | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
You can't predict exactly how initial design decisions will play out in an established e-sports scene. You can't change design after the e-sports scene establishes itself around the initial design decisions. ¯\_(-_-)_/¯ | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On September 11 2015 19:44 KeksX wrote: you're talking about map control and every race has that, zerg just has the cheapest one, let's face it, zerg is currently way easier everything-wise than its protoss and terran counterpartsIt's possible to introduce other game mechanics that require fast and accurate user input other than injects and make them more important for zerg. I.e. creep spread, overlord placement and things that Protoss/Terran don't have that are already pretty important in HotS. | ||
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