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On September 11 2015 20:06 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 19:55 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:44 KeksX wrote:On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote:
In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. It's possible to introduce other game mechanics that require fast and accurate user input other than injects and make them more important for zerg. I.e. creep spread, overlord placement and things that Protoss/Terran don't have that are already pretty important in HotS. Yes but these things are already in the game and weren't modified (=made more crucial for Z) when auto inject was introduced. IMO if auto inject were to stay, then it would be best to scrap MULES/Chrono and rebalance P/T resource gathering and unit production times. On September 11 2015 19:54 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote:
In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. I didn't say that but bringing one platinum game as proof that something is broken is BS. The beta is supposed to try stuff and see if things can be improved but this whining attitude combined with nothing really worthy as proof leads to nothing. Its basically like reading on riots forums when new champions are introduced. It was my observation, not some sort of indisputable proof. You are free to disagree. But, Blizz surely isn't reverting the changes because of whining, but because it is clear, that things can't stay this way. So your observation in plat was so clear that it can't stay like this. Okay I give up.
How is it that you keep reading things, that I haven't written?
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On September 11 2015 15:49 Yiome wrote:
So after all these testing they still want to revert back to HotS??? Now I really start to feel they have no idea which direction they want to go.
I understand the beta is running out of time and all, but this is not the time to back off...
Please... You already have the courage to test the one thing that changes the core of sc2, at least give yourself some credits and follow it through. Changes everything back to what it is now is definitely not going to give this game any longevity what so ever.
Disappointed...
agree
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If you keep the injects, I much prefer the stacking than auto injects.
If you remove them completely, then what you say is a very good point, just maybe up to 8 larvae per hatcheries maximum.
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On September 11 2015 20:07 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 20:06 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 19:55 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:44 KeksX wrote:On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote:
In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. It's possible to introduce other game mechanics that require fast and accurate user input other than injects and make them more important for zerg. I.e. creep spread, overlord placement and things that Protoss/Terran don't have that are already pretty important in HotS. Yes but these things are already in the game and weren't modified (=made more crucial for Z) when auto inject was introduced. IMO if auto inject were to stay, then it would be best to scrap MULES/Chrono and rebalance P/T resource gathering and unit production times. On September 11 2015 19:54 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote:
In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. I didn't say that but bringing one platinum game as proof that something is broken is BS. The beta is supposed to try stuff and see if things can be improved but this whining attitude combined with nothing really worthy as proof leads to nothing. Its basically like reading on riots forums when new champions are introduced. It was my observation, not some sort of indisputable proof. You are free to disagree. But, Blizz surely isn't reverting the changes because of whining, but because it is clear, that things can't stay this way. So your observation in plat was so clear that it can't stay like this. Okay I give up. How is it that you keep reading things, that I haven't written?
If that is not the point of your post, why would you even bring that up anyway? What do you want to tell us with comparing 3 plat players so that things have to get patched?
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On September 11 2015 20:16 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 20:07 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 20:06 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 19:55 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:44 KeksX wrote:On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote:
In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. It's possible to introduce other game mechanics that require fast and accurate user input other than injects and make them more important for zerg. I.e. creep spread, overlord placement and things that Protoss/Terran don't have that are already pretty important in HotS. Yes but these things are already in the game and weren't modified (=made more crucial for Z) when auto inject was introduced. IMO if auto inject were to stay, then it would be best to scrap MULES/Chrono and rebalance P/T resource gathering and unit production times. On September 11 2015 19:54 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 19:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 19:33 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:42 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 18:40 gTank wrote:On September 11 2015 18:38 CheddarToss wrote:
In all honesty, introducing auto injects was a bad idea from the start. Without the macro mechanic, Zerg macro becomes way too easy. I was watching MC play on a brand new account and wrecking lower level players yesterday. It was interesting to see just how little stuff his platinum league P and T opponents had. Then he played a platinum Zerg and the guy had like twice as much stuff as the P/T players he had played just moments before. You are really comparing MC to platinum leage players? Autoinject is sure OP then. Did you read my post? It wasn't MC, who was playing Zerg, it was the other guy. Edit: and that other guy had much, much, much more stuff, than plat P/T players MC had played before. Oh ok I misread, one guy on a beta server who was plat who he do know nothing else about had way more stuff than other plat players. Now even I think its OP </sarcasm> You are right, it's best to automate the mechanically most demanding part of Z macro, while also automating the least demanding parts of P/T macro and pretend that it doesn't defy logic. I didn't say that but bringing one platinum game as proof that something is broken is BS. The beta is supposed to try stuff and see if things can be improved but this whining attitude combined with nothing really worthy as proof leads to nothing. Its basically like reading on riots forums when new champions are introduced. It was my observation, not some sort of indisputable proof. You are free to disagree. But, Blizz surely isn't reverting the changes because of whining, but because it is clear, that things can't stay this way. So your observation in plat was so clear that it can't stay like this. Okay I give up. How is it that you keep reading things, that I haven't written? If that is not the point of your post, why would you even bring that up anyway? What do you want to tell us with comparing 3 plat players so that things have to get patched?
The point is, that Blizzard's dev team has analysed the numbers and looked at the games, and has come to the conclusion that auto inject is bad for the game. And I happen to agree based on more than one observation. The one MC game was, at least to me, just one of those glaring examples that auto inject is terrible.
As I've said previously, I don't expect you to agree, and that is fine by me if you don't.
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On September 11 2015 20:03 FLuE wrote:
The part of the macro mechanic discussion that was frustrating was when people kept saying "zerg macro too easy!"
This is part of why zerg has been a nightmare to balance. Zerg macro SHOULD be easy. Getting rid of injects and letting Zerg have the "easier" macro would have allowed for more consistent production from zerg(probably a higher amount of units for most players) and therefor the relative strength of the units could have been adjusted accordingly. Zerg is suppose to be weak units streaming across the map trying to flood the other races. The other races have either stronger units or better positional opportunities that are more cost effective to counter.
I was hoping we'd head back that direction, then what would have made a good vs. bad zerg would have been decision making, scouting, flanking, swarming, use of units like viper/infestor(if they were ever fixed right) etc.
Now we will just go back to "good zerg he click hatchery every 20 seconds" "bad zerg he forget!" Then they have to keep making zerg units stronger since lower players miss injects and can't produce as much, then higher level players are too strong because they don't miss injects.
I don't get why it is so hard to just get rid of inject, reduce hatchery cost to 250 minerals, allow for larva at a hatchery up to 5 larva, adjust spawn times on larva as needed, let zergs make macro hatches as needed, and let the queen be a defensive / creep spread unit as the creep spread is interesting to watch and a better strategic addition than inject.
If Zerg macro is too easy or easier, than why do they need a macro mechanic that makes macro harder just for the sake of making it harder? Let Terran and Toss, which the "harder" macro get the mechanics that help make macro a bit more forgiving. Zerg doesn't need a macro mechanic, its OK for zerg to not have it and focus on creep spread and defending any number of early game harass and let T and P have the mechanic that helps.
Well said, sir!
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I feel they should really try to minimize the impact of the macro mechanics. Make it so that you can still achieve a minor advantage by doing all these things, but don't have them be a core part of the macro aspect of the game (keep minerals low, always be producing, etc).
Larva inject provides a single larva, instead of multiple.
Mules are just a temporary extra scv with normal mining. Could also be used on gas. Perhaps this mule can be converted into a Terran building like a drone.
A minimal chronoboost that matches the power of the above two mechanics.
Just... don't revert back to HotS. The explosive macro really doesn't work for LotV.
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On September 11 2015 20:31 a_flayer wrote:
I feel they should really try to minimize the impact of the macro mechanics. Make it so that you can still achieve a minor advantage by doing all these things, but don't have them be a core part of the macro aspect of the game (keep minerals low, always be producing, etc).
Larva inject provides a single larva, instead of multiple.
Mules are just a temporary extra scv with normal mining. Could also be used on gas. Perhaps this mule can be converted into a Terran building like a drone.
A minimal chronoboost that matches the power of the above two mechanics.
Just... don't revert back to HotS. The explosive macro really doesn't work for LotV.
That would be even better than the current MULE.
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On September 11 2015 20:34 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 20:31 a_flayer wrote:
I feel they should really try to minimize the impact of the macro mechanics. Make it so that you can still achieve a minor advantage by doing all these things, but don't have them be a core part of the macro aspect of the game (keep minerals low, always be producing, etc).
Larva inject provides a single larva, instead of multiple.
Mules are just a temporary extra scv with normal mining. Could also be used on gas. Perhaps this mule can be converted into a Terran building like a drone.
A minimal chronoboost that matches the power of the above two mechanics.
Just... don't revert back to HotS. The explosive macro really doesn't work for LotV. That would be even better than the current MULE.
How is that? Buildings don't take longer than the MULE's duration to make, do they? It would just be like sending an SCV to make it, except you use the mule (energy) to make the building instead of mining time from an SCV. You would still pay minerals and gas for the building, obviously.
Anyway I'm just throwing out random stuff because I desperately want something other than WoL/HotS "macro mechanics".
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I love all the people whining about how no matter what Blizzard does people bitch.
Did anyone bitch when they made tank turrets track? Nope, and in fact that whole patch was well received. How many people would bitch if they fixed the game's econ?
Was anyone upset about Lurkers being added? Nope, it's a great unit.
Are a lot of people annoyed with Cyclones and Liberators (a flying version of what the siege tank should be, but isn't - a unit that can control space)? You bet. Because they the Cyclone is a shit unit and the Liberator overlaps with the tank, and is abusable as hell (fending off Liberators at the mineral line early game is fun, right?).
Were a lot of people annoyed with the macro mechanic removal patch? Yep. Was it a horrible patch? Yep. Do I think that the game would be better off without macro mechanics? Yes I do. But the fact remains that the patch itself was horrible. It broke the game, they needed to test it more internally and then make more sweeping chances to unit costs, build times, etc... Otherwise you end up with a shit patch.
This whole beta has been a mess. The initial design of the Cyclone was so stupid that my mom wouldn't have green lit it. The unit is still junk. The Herc was a joke. The econ is a band-aid. The Mothership Core is still in the game. The Adept is effectively a Roach with an awkward teleport. And recently, they wasted a huge amount of the beta testing a change that anyone with a brain knew the result of before it ever got implemented (shockingly, removing one of the games core mechanics would force drastic changes that Blizzard doesn't want to deal with).
People are vocal because these patches suck and the beta isn't living up to their unrealistic expectations (seems some people were expecting something other than more of the same). LotV is the follow up to an expansion that has had nearly every change removed from the game or heavily reworked since its release. Makes a man pessimistic.
I just hope they have done with it and buff DT speed like they tired to a couple of years ago. Is LotV going to be better than HotS? Maybe, time will tell. Wouldn't take much to make the game better than the Swarm Host days. But Blizzard clearly has missed a huge opportunity while floundering around making stupid changes that end up reverted and adding units that are so bad on paper it boggles the mind they got implemented.
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On September 11 2015 20:39 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 20:34 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 20:31 a_flayer wrote:
I feel they should really try to minimize the impact of the macro mechanics. Make it so that you can still achieve a minor advantage by doing all these things, but don't have them be a core part of the macro aspect of the game (keep minerals low, always be producing, etc).
Larva inject provides a single larva, instead of multiple.
Mules are just a temporary extra scv with normal mining. Could also be used on gas. Perhaps this mule can be converted into a Terran building like a drone.
A minimal chronoboost that matches the power of the above two mechanics.
Just... don't revert back to HotS. The explosive macro really doesn't work for LotV. That would be even better than the current MULE. How is that? Buildings don't take longer than the MULE's duration to make, do they? It would just be like sending an SCV to make it, except you use the mule (energy) to make the building instead of mining time from an SCV. You would still pay minerals and gas for the building, obviously. Anyway I'm just throwing out random stuff because I desperately want something other than WoL/HotS "macro mechanics".
Well you did write that it could be "converted into a Terran building like a drone", which made me assume that the building wouldn't cost anything, since the MULE is free. It would be OK if the "call down SCV" could build buildings just like a regular SCV. However I doubt anyone would use that SCV in such a fashion, because it is less of a hassle to let it mine and use a normal SCV for making buildings, because it can't expire in the middle of construction. 
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On September 11 2015 20:46 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 20:39 a_flayer wrote:On September 11 2015 20:34 CheddarToss wrote:On September 11 2015 20:31 a_flayer wrote:
I feel they should really try to minimize the impact of the macro mechanics. Make it so that you can still achieve a minor advantage by doing all these things, but don't have them be a core part of the macro aspect of the game (keep minerals low, always be producing, etc).
Larva inject provides a single larva, instead of multiple.
Mules are just a temporary extra scv with normal mining. Could also be used on gas. Perhaps this mule can be converted into a Terran building like a drone.
A minimal chronoboost that matches the power of the above two mechanics.
Just... don't revert back to HotS. The explosive macro really doesn't work for LotV. That would be even better than the current MULE. How is that? Buildings don't take longer than the MULE's duration to make, do they? It would just be like sending an SCV to make it, except you use the mule (energy) to make the building instead of mining time from an SCV. You would still pay minerals and gas for the building, obviously. Anyway I'm just throwing out random stuff because I desperately want something other than WoL/HotS "macro mechanics". Well you did write that it could be "converted into a Terran building like a drone", which made me assume that the building wouldn't cost anything, since the MULE is free. It would be OK if the "call down SCV" could build buildings just like a regular SCV. However I doubt anyone would use that SCV in such a fashion, because it is less of a hassle to let it mine and use a normal SCV for making buildings, because it can't expire in the middle of construction.
It would convert into the building like a drone does, so it would basically make the MULE vanish as soon as you start the building and automate the construction of the buildings. Like a drone. There wouldn't be a unit to harass while the building is constructing and it would always complete the building. There is no timing out. I dont know how to make it any clearer.
Edit: it occurs to me that it would then be optimal to let it mine a bunch before converting it into a building, which is even more clicks. Perhaps this is desirable, but probably not. Still, hopefully the original point of reducing the impact of macro mechanics stands. I saw a suggestion for removing inject entirely and reducing the cost of hatcheries to compensate slightly. I like that one and considered it myself when Blizzard first started messing with it, but felt that - well something about Queens, anyway.
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Huh... guess they got cold feet on stirring the pot of the e-sports scene.
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If they removed them entirely and rebalanced the game I think it would have been the right decision.
I feel like the next best option to simplify them is to make Inject / Mule / Chrono queue-able by keyboard hotkey .
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I am really feeling good about LOTV after this community update. I believe reverting the macro mechanics as proposed is the best way to go. They are just too fun and unique to the game to remove - and there are other ways of fixing some key issues such as chrono boost chaining, etc. I do believe in easy to learn, hard to master, but in a game like SC2 you need to keep the complexities of multi-tasking and macro since that it what draws everyone to want to even play a good RTS. HOTS had that bang on !
I also love the willingness for Blizzard to test some huge ideas, and completely revert and try something else if it does not feel good. Now is the time to feel out different models to improve the game. Later on, there will be plenty of time to adjust balance and individual unit design/armor/dps, etc.
Thank you David Kim !
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I am also in agreement with the posters that indicated that keeping all HOTS macro mechanics would be great, but Blizzard could consider toning them down instead. I feel that this is the best option.
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On September 11 2015 04:30 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 04:16 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2015 04:07 Tenks wrote:On September 11 2015 03:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2015 03:50 Lexender wrote:On September 11 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2015 03:44 Tenks wrote:On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote:
Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?! we're back to the same old boat where 9/10 the person with simple better raw mechanics will win And isn't that... great ? Strategy should only be the distinguishing factor between people of the same mechanical level. We should rename the genre to RTM real time mechanical game I have zero interest in people with great strategic thinking but no mechanics to back it up. I'm very happy with SC2 being a mechanically demanding game. If you disagree with that point of view that's absolutely fine, that's just a personal opinion, nothing to get upset about. The problem, outside of making the game almost impossible to get into, is that it rewards only one style of play. Outside of some lucky un scouted timing attacks and cheese the mechanically superior player will just outright win all the time. Lets take the below radar chart. The person (since I was lazy aka "Series 1") will will a disproportionate amount of times compared to the other two players simply because he is superior at one facet of the game. The game should strive to reward all aptitudes not just simply muscle memory. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5nEgdFs.jpg) Why would it reward only one style of play ? A mechanically sound player can still choose to go defensive (Rain vs Maru) or craft the perfect all-in to dismantle his opponent's predictable build (Polt vs Classic on Overgrowth). What I don't want to see is some 100 APM Protoss taking out games of INnoVation because he so obviously outsmarted him with his delayed oracle into delayed DTs. Your paranoid statement about Innovation losing to some 100 APM Protoss will not happen even in macro-less LotV. Because LotV should, in theory, reward the player who has fast decision making and very strong multi-task. And yes you still have macro in LotV because you need to constantly move workers around and expand out. It is there it is just less important. But I'll also circle around and ask this -- why not? Is it the worst thing in the world when the Dolphins (sorry American Football) busted out the never-before-seen Wildcat formation against the Patriots and beat them? Is it terrible that Virginia Tech used a exotic defensive formation to beat Ohio State last year? No. Just because you cannot adapt to a situation in a game means you didn't deserve to win the game. Now your previous statement is comparing two top level pro gamers. This is a problem I've been having lately with TL in regards to macro-less and LotV direction in general. You are comparing two people who are already nearly perfect in the mechanics department. Starcraft should not be a game you are only allowed to play if you've already put in 1000 hours to perfect your mechanics. That is not a viable game for the future. People are trying to perserve this sacred ground that is the pro gamer scene at the cost of the actual longevity of the game. The game needs to be accessible from the very first instance you load it up and play around with it. At the moment it is not. You can only start to worry about practicing and working on your micro and build variance once you've secured enough hours into the game to have at least passable mechanics. The game needs to be fun at all skill levels not just the highest. The game needs to reward players for player versus player interactions not just player versus mechanics interactions. Take any Diamond replay and you could point out 100 mechanical mistakes they made that if they didn't they could have won the game regardless of any micro failings. How many times can you load up a Diamond vs Diamond replay and try and boil something down to a player versus player interaction as the true cause of a loss? Probably less than half.
I find it hilarious when people compare the tactical depth of pro sports to the one of STARCRAFT TWO LOL.
Pro collective sports are endlessly more complicated.
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Nerfing late game mules is simple, make command center only able to summon mules to the mineral field it occupies. NO distant summoning. done.
I think zerg inject fine as is in hots.
Chrono boost is fine as it is. However, I think nexus can accommodate more abilities such as recall.
I think it is hardest with zerg to macro because of injects but so what? Races should be different, remember?
What really disappointed me with this update is Blizzard's dogmatic belief that Marauder is a good unit!!!!! Marauder's concessive shell, sentries force fields together with roaches' rediculus healt what made sc2 inferior to Brood War. First 2 units made you, as an opponent, unable to do respond which has been frustrating as HELL, and roaches change the Zerg as a race and also negatively affected protoss since their gateway units are all weak against it. I think they should at least brought immortal to gateway with appropriate balancing, of course. SC2 is a mess, compared to Brood War, because of these three basic units, Marauder, Sentries and Roaches. We should just cut our loses and get rid of the with Legacy of the Void.
Alas, it is toooooooo logical.
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Would have preferred to see mule completely removed from the game (obviously with terran gaining something to make up for it, like adjusted unit costs etc.), but as ong as Zerg has to manually inject again I'm fine. Even when having to go broodlord infestor or swarm host every game, it has never been so unenjoyable for me to play Zerg. Without inject, it's way too easy to macro and zvz is pretty disgusting as everyone is gonna have the same amount of larvae, besides differences in hatch timings. I really wish they would have explored more ways to remove mule and adjust chrono, but autoinject is literally the most disgusting thing I have ever seen in starcraft 2, so I'm fine with their proposal. Not sure how I feel about this stacking thing though, but I'll take any form of manual inject over this autocasted bullshit. Glad I can go back to playing again whenever this patch drops.
Also they should just move pylon overcharge to nexi. No offensive bs anymore and it would be a great start to removing the mothership core. Hero units have no place in starcraft.
Also lol @ their marauder example. It wasn't as much the marauder's impact on balance as the marauders design. Terran bio does not need a dragoon that slows and it changed the game for the worse. SC2's problem has rarely been balance, but most of the time design. Stuff like forcefields, roaches, marauders, warpgates and being able to stockpile enough larvae to insta-remax in the lategame are issues that will continue to plague this game until starcraft 3 comes out...
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On September 11 2015 18:26 Thouhastmail wrote:
"Marauder was first introduced back in Wings of Liberty, for a very long time, even after the game launched, we were getting so much feedback, especially from Korean players, that Marauders were completely broken and needed to be nerfed. We never did nerf them, but they’ve been seen as well balanced all throughout HotS."
Just letme tell you what they`ve done to Marauders;
Concussive Shell requires upgrade
Archons become Massive
When Zealot Charges, it must give damage at least once
well, it is true that they never nerfed Marauder itself, but it sounds quite cherry-picking.
They also buffed immortal range and changed other timings to allow protoss/zerg to more easily stay on equal footing econonically etc.
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EPT
