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On August 01 2015 08:13 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:10 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On August 01 2015 08:07 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 01 2015 08:07 Ej_ wrote:On August 01 2015 08:06 mishimaBeef wrote:On August 01 2015 08:03 Ej_ wrote:On August 01 2015 08:00 mishimaBeef wrote:
nobody says whoa look at those injects! whoa look at him drop those mules! whoa look at the chronoboost go!
but people should be saying whoa look at that _____! that's exciting.
more of that is good, remove the cruft
having visible macro (such as expanding aggressively on the map as your multitask) is great
invisible macro mechanic usage not so much fuck that sick multitask of placing buildings (wow!), if only there was no automining on workers so you'd actually have to sometimes visit bases to do something and yes there are players who shine through exceptional macro management, but I guess there will be only PartinGs and Marus left now, just like HotS made every Terran GuMiho yeah but telling workers to mine, or "shining through exceptional macro management" are not visible to viewers and are not exciting aspects of the game i mean yeah it is visible after the fact when you realize "damn he must have really hit his injects to have so many units" but the hype is minimal sorry I actually want games to have depth, not be about HYPE highlights on reddit there would be depth... tactical depth... sorry see my edit: "its much more hype to have overlords dropping in the back, nydus wurms popping up, mutas sniping tanks, 4 hatcheries going up on the map... yeah you get the point" The problem with that idea is that there has been no real moves to increase the amount of "tactical depth" in the game. So we're losing macro and gaining nothing else to focus on. that's not true, you are gaining 'attention spending' that can be used to focus on tactical play ... i believe zerg hesitates to commit fully to micro'ing on 3 fronts right now because then they would be missing their injects at home... and if they tried to still hit those injects they are almost certain to mess up one of the engagements and trade poorly... so, they just stick to 1-2 fronts and so they can still safely hit their injects
And that whole idea is part of the decision making of SC2. Do I focus on macro, or do I micro my army better? Removing that makes the whole game shallower and less interesting. Every player having perfect micro on all fronts at all time doesn't make the game more interesting.
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what makes you think every player will have perfect micro on all fronts? that's a silly assumption that oversimplifies the complexity of the game without basis
and by the way, macro is still existing but it will be visible on the map (i.e. bases going up)
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On August 01 2015 05:41 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 05:38 Dodgin wrote:On August 01 2015 05:36 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 01 2015 05:31 Dodgin wrote:
Seems like another case of Blizzard trying to add something that nobody was asking for, who the hell came up with this idea that they need to remove macro mechanics? The game may be harder to play but the people you play against have the same trouble as you do keeping up with all the required actions. Koreans at the california meeting. And most pro players agree... the zerg ones cuz MULE and CHRONO take less to 0 skill Source? The california meeting community update where they said koreans talk about how hard the game is
which isn't a source at all. just random pr from blizzard.
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On August 01 2015 08:20 mishimaBeef wrote:
what makes you think every player will have perfect micro on all fronts? that's a silly assumption that oversimplifies the complexity of the game without basis
and by the way, macro is still existing but it will be visible on the map (i.e. bases going up)
Bases going up is already here, we already have that. Nothing is being gain in the game by removing macro, only a skill is being lost. I'm all for reworking some of these mechanics. Injects are too important and make-or-break zerg players, Mules are too easy to just spam and Chronoboost is plain out boring, but to get rid of these entirely just doesn't feel right to me
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On August 01 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:
Oh and when i say remove the macro mechanics I couldnt care less about the viewers. It's about
a) me as a player not liking them conceptually: singleplayeresque with no decision behind because they are way to strong to not use all the time, in particular injects
b) mechanically: tell me of one zerg who in the midst of mutalisk harass and a combat and a runby went like: "gosh I really would like to inject some hatcheries now and park my mutalisk in this corner for a few seconds" but it's actually true. If you have to make the decision to inject or micro the injections are more important.
c) strategically: inject attacks are ruining ZvZ early game because they generate too many units too fast. Mass mulehammers are often instantwins for terrans if they can acquire a certain xth base in the lategame, while for the other races its a big investment and risk to place another base on location. Also the notion to kill all your workers to have a bigger army size while maintaining the income is stupid when the other races dont have free units as workers.
Chronoboost is actually not bad in any way besides fuelling stupid proxy rushes. But even those could be "saved" simply by tuning the build times.
I hate MULEs and mass larva tech switches as much as everyone else, but they could actually just rework the macro mechanics instead of removing them. I think Starbow got them actually pretty cool, Terran got a chrono for production buildings only and MULE replaced with SCV call down that still costs 50min to make. And then there's also the low energy cap on nexus and CC so you can't stack up energy and use all at once. I think that's a much much more elegant solution than putting autocast (there's a hack that injects for you, it's literally a cheat atm) and scrapping the macro requirements from the other races altogether.
It really feels like Warcraft 4 in space at this point.
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u gain attention spending...
consider that u need 9.8/10 micro (near impossible) on 3 fronts to yield more valuable attention spending than hitting injects and attacking only on 1-2 fronts with 8/10 micro (because injects give you that much power)
then consider that if you didn't have to hit injects, you can do better micro'ing 8/10 effectiveness on 3 fronts (because of how your strategy/timing works) vs 10/10 micro on 2 fronts... suddenly it's more feasible to be micro'ing on 3 fronts...
it's a human attention limit...
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Inject becomes spawn 8 Broodlings on your hatchery, ready to ATTACK!
Chrono becomes, I need shield on that unit, this unit, this building.
Mule becomes, SUPER repair.
More defenders advantage is needed, but Queens also need a reason to stay at home and I kind of like M.U.L.E theme, where Terran come to this new planet and just freaking dries it from all resources in matter of seconds.
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Nerfing macro mechanics is one of the most important changes they can make to the economy, and we're screaming about not having more buttons to press?
This stuff breaks the economy, so much to the point where people play late-game by replacing their workers with...more command centers. Do you not see how dead 1 base builds are? There are so many options that have been killed because you simply can't touch 3 base eco without going allin because of queens and mules.
Do you see how fast games go to max supply? I'm seriously going crazy here, this is the biggest economy fix they could have done. argh
Please don't kill this.
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On August 01 2015 08:03 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:00 mishimaBeef wrote:
nobody says whoa look at those injects! whoa look at him drop those mules! whoa look at the chronoboost go!
but people should be saying whoa look at that _____! that's exciting.
more of that is good, remove the cruft
having visible macro (such as expanding aggressively on the map as your multitask) is great
invisible macro mechanic usage not so much fuck that sick multitask of placing buildings (wow!), if only there was no automining on workers so you'd actually have to sometimes visit bases to do something and yes there are players who shine through exceptional macro management, but I guess there will be only PartinGs and Marus left now, just like HotS made every Terran GuMiho
I second this, I've said this before in this thread but no one responded. If these changes go through, as a player, you can't choose to focus your practice on macro specifically. You can't elect to become a player who wins off of macro-based play as much as before (this is especially relevant for zerg.) You can't choose to play like SoO because SoO will no longer have the same advantages in skill that he has now.
Edit: I also think that zergs should have to do something to inject. It shoudn't be an autocast. If these changes go through (which they absolutely should not) then inject should just be less relevant, but still require an action. Otherwise, terran is still left with a very unforgiving macro setup (supply block) but zerg's unforgiving mechanic is totally gone. That simply isn't fair, punishing one race for sloppy macro but not another.
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I dno I'm pretty torn. On one hand I love players like Maru, Parting, Life a lot more than Innovation, Rain and SoO, but on the other hand if everyone plays like Maru, Parting and Life are these players then still special?
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On August 01 2015 08:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:
Oh and when i say remove the macro mechanics I couldnt care less about the viewers. It's about
a) me as a player not liking them conceptually: singleplayeresque with no decision behind because they are way to strong to not use all the time, in particular injects
b) mechanically: tell me of one zerg who in the midst of mutalisk harass and a combat and a runby went like: "gosh I really would like to inject some hatcheries now and park my mutalisk in this corner for a few seconds" but it's actually true. If you have to make the decision to inject or micro the injections are more important.
c) strategically: inject attacks are ruining ZvZ early game because they generate too many units too fast. Mass mulehammers are often instantwins for terrans if they can acquire a certain xth base in the lategame, while for the other races its a big investment and risk to place another base on location. Also the notion to kill all your workers to have a bigger army size while maintaining the income is stupid when the other races dont have free units as workers.
Chronoboost is actually not bad in any way besides fuelling stupid proxy rushes. But even those could be "saved" simply by tuning the build times. I hate MULEs and mass larva tech switches as much as everyone else, but they could actually just rework the macro mechanics instead of removing them. I think Starbow got them actually pretty cool, Terran got a chrono for production buildings only and MULE replaced with SCV call down that still costs 50min to make. And then there's also the low energy cap on nexus and CC so you can't stack up energy and use all at once. I think that's a much much more elegant solution than putting autocast (there's a hack that injects for you, it's literally a cheat atm) and scrapping the macro requirements from the other races altogether. It really feels like Warcraft 4 in space at this point.
I always thought Starbows solutions for macro mechanics felt very forced but I havent played it for a long time. Dunno their current status.
I generally despise the idea of macromechanics. I dont see any gain from having to switch to your base to make your stuff build at the speed the game means it to build. If they wanted that they could just make production/mining more complicated to begin with.
Why would I ever want to switch my screen to the part of the game where no player-interaction is taking place? Thats a singleplayer experience that belongs in a museum.
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On August 01 2015 08:28 mishimaBeef wrote:
u gain attention spending...
consider that u need 9.8/10 micro (near impossible) on 3 fronts to yield more valuable attention spending than hitting injects and attacking only on 1-2 fronts with 8/10 micro (because injects give you that much power)
then consider that if you didn't have to hit injects, you can do better micro'ing 8/10 effectiveness on 3 fronts (because of how your strategy/timing works) vs 10/10 micro on 2 fronts... suddenly it's more feasible to be micro'ing on 3 fronts...
it's a human attention limit...
Why not remove having to build supply units as well then? Why not automate worker production? Even more time to micro. Might as well go full company of heroes and remove macro as a whole. Macro is part of this game and should not be removed in favor of micro. Micro is a way to increase the value of your macroed units. It should not be the endgoal of the game.
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i'm confident this change will bring more action and we will still (inevitably) see a diversity in playstyles (especially due to the new units/tweaks and their battle interactions)
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On August 01 2015 08:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
i'm confident this change will bring more action and we will still (inevitably) see a diversity in playstyles (especially due to the new units/tweaks and their battle interactions)
How can there be a diversity in playstyles when you effectively remove an entire playstyle from the game?
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On August 01 2015 08:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:28 mishimaBeef wrote:
u gain attention spending...
consider that u need 9.8/10 micro (near impossible) on 3 fronts to yield more valuable attention spending than hitting injects and attacking only on 1-2 fronts with 8/10 micro (because injects give you that much power)
then consider that if you didn't have to hit injects, you can do better micro'ing 8/10 effectiveness on 3 fronts (because of how your strategy/timing works) vs 10/10 micro on 2 fronts... suddenly it's more feasible to be micro'ing on 3 fronts...
it's a human attention limit... Why not remove having to build supply units as well then? Why not automate worker production? Even more time to micro. Might as well go full company of heroes and remove macro as a whole. Macro is part of this game and should not be removed in favor of micro. Micro is a way to increase the value of your macroed units. It should not be the endgoal of the game.
yes but inevitably it is the end goal of the game. u must micro an army to win the game.
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On August 01 2015 08:16 Big J wrote:
Oh and when i say remove the macro mechanics I couldnt care less about the viewers. It's about
a) me as a player not liking them conceptually: singleplayeresque with no decision behind because they are way to strong to not use all the time, in particular injects
b) mechanically: tell me of one zerg who in the midst of mutalisk harass and a combat and a runby went like: "gosh I really would like to inject some hatcheries now and park my mutalisk in this corner for a few seconds" but it's actually true. If you have to make the decision to inject or micro the injections are more important.
c) strategically: inject attacks are ruining ZvZ early game because they generate too many units too fast. Mass mulehammers are often instantwins for terrans if they can acquire a certain xth base in the lategame, while for the other races its a big investment and risk to place another base on location. Also the notion to kill all your workers to have a bigger army size while maintaining the income is stupid when the other races dont have free units as workers.
Chronoboost is actually not bad in any way besides fuelling stupid proxy rushes. But even those could be "saved" simply by tuning the build times.
This best answer,
I cant belive people are against this.
You wanted big changes remember ! People wake the huck up !
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On August 01 2015 08:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
i'm confident this change will bring more action and we will still (inevitably) see a diversity in playstyles (especially due to the new units/tweaks and their battle interactions) How can there be a diversity in playstyles when you effectively remove an entire playstyle from the game?
you don't remove the playstyle you just change it. if soo is really a macro player then he will exploit the new macro opportunities that are available (i.e. not injects)
is soo an inject player or a macro player?
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On August 01 2015 08:42 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 01 2015 08:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
i'm confident this change will bring more action and we will still (inevitably) see a diversity in playstyles (especially due to the new units/tweaks and their battle interactions) How can there be a diversity in playstyles when you effectively remove an entire playstyle from the game? you don't remove the playstyle you just change it. if soo is really a macro player then he will exploit the new macro opportunities that are available (i.e. not injects) is soo an inject player or a macro player?
There are no new macro opportunities though, they've basically straight nerfed/removed them
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On August 01 2015 08:42 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 08:41 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On August 01 2015 08:39 mishimaBeef wrote:
i'm confident this change will bring more action and we will still (inevitably) see a diversity in playstyles (especially due to the new units/tweaks and their battle interactions) How can there be a diversity in playstyles when you effectively remove an entire playstyle from the game? you don't remove the playstyle you just change it. if soo is really a macro player then he will exploit the new macro opportunities that are available (i.e. not injects)
SoO won so much because his macro was perfect. Literally. Like almost completely optimal. He won so much off of this because his injects were just that much crisper than the macro of every other player. SoO can't win off of superior injects anymore if injects stop being so important, and there isn't really any macro skill to replace them.
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Warp gate changes are just silly and desperate, we don't need a frontal push nerf and a defensive buff, we need there to be some type of advantage to using Gateways vs. making them all warp gates.
Nerf warp gate with the Pylon idea (the upgrade pylon) that alone should more then suffice and give Gateways a production advantage, stop with these silly gimmicky changes around warp gate I really don't understand the timid approach here, it's like David wants soooo bad for WG to be good.
Also, I'm fine with macro boosters being eliminated or greatly reduced, they suck, not because they don't take skill to use, because they contribute to larger army fights, if you want smaller army fights, you need to not have something that lets you stack 80 larvae or not spam 10 super workers or...well Chronoboost is just lame so any good idea around that I'd be fine with.
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EPT
