EPTCommunity Feedback Update - July 31st - Page 6
| Forum Index > Legacy of the Void |
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
With every patch it really looks like they don't give a crap about the macro aspect of Starcraft and just want it to become a MOBA with more units to cast your spells and activate abilities. Hopeless. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Please test thid all the way and see what new strategies could rise. This sounds like such a great step to more stability in the game! | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
but people should be saying whoa look at that _____! that's exciting. more of that is good, remove the cruft having visible macro (such as expanding aggressively on the map as your multitask) is great invisible macro mechanic usage not so much | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:00 mishimaBeef wrote: nobody says whoa look at those injects! whoa look at him drop those mules! whoa look at the chronoboost go! but people should be saying whoa look at that _____! that's exciting. more of that is good, remove the cruft having visible macro (such as expanding aggressively on the map as your multitask) is great invisible macro mechanic usage not so much fuck that sick multitask of placing buildings (wow!), if only there was no automining on workers so you'd actually have to sometimes visit bases to do something and yes there are players who shine through exceptional macro management, but I guess there will be only PartinGs and Marus left now, just like HotS made every Terran GuMiho | ||
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
On August 01 2015 07:48 Roblin wrote: regarding warp gate: it may need some tweaks but I think it will definitely be better than what we have now, is it too much? is it not enough? time will tell. regarding macro mechanics: I know I'm in the minority but I actually like the approach blizz is suggesting, in particular (and I'm saying this as a zerg player) I think inject should definitely be nerfed in terms of larvae output. why? lets do the math: hatcheries produce 1 larvae per 15 seconds and costs 300 minerals + a drone queens produce (with optimal play) 4 larvae per 40 seconds (1 larvae per 10 seconds) and costs 150 minerals + 2 supply. lets say the drone cost and the 2 supply cost even each other out so we just compare the mineral cost : larvae produced ratio. the smallest common denominator for the larvae production is 30 seconds, in 30 seconds queens produce 3 larvae while hatcheries produce 2 larvae, lets divide these by the costs of the units to get larvae produced / (minerals spent * 30 seconds) hatchery = 2 / 300 = 1/150 queen = 3 / 150 = 1/50 i.e. queens are 3 times more efficient at producing larvae than hatcheries, even when ignoring the fact that queens have shorter build times. these numbers comparatively help hatcheries when reducing the larvae production for queens: 3 larvae: 2.25 / 150 = 1/67 2 larvae: 1.5 / 150 = 1/100 so even at 2 larvae it is still beneficial to produce queens rather than macro-hatcheries, even when ignoring the added utility of queens. as for whether it should be auto-cast, I can see that being a contested point, but I think it would be worth it to try it out, I know I'm not flawless on my injects and injecting just to not lose literally more than half of my larvae production (literally 60% of potential larvae production comes from queens, 100% of larvae production comes from queens when saving up larvae) has always been the most tedious part of the game in my opinion and it would be interesting to see how much more accessible the game would be if that was more lenient. I have no opinion regarding MULE and CB. tl.dr. I think the proposed macromechanic approach can be worth exploring and I think it will probably be significantly less detrimental to strategy/skill ceiling than one might initially think. time will tell. Thanks for the analysis. As I said I hope they can make injects more of a choice than a must. Do wish they can try this out. Maybe twerk the number a little bit more to strike a good balance on larva injects vs hatchery. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:03 Ej_ wrote: fuck that sick multitask of placing buildings (wow!), if only there was no automining on workers so you'd actually have to sometimes visit bases to do something and yes there are players who shine through exceptional macro management, but I guess there will be only PartinGs and Marus left now, just like HotS made every Terran GuMiho yeah but telling workers to mine, or "shining through exceptional macro management" are not visible to viewers and are not exciting aspects of the game i mean yeah it is visible after the fact when you realize "damn he must have really hit his injects to have so many units" but the hype is minimal its much more hype to have overlords dropping in the back, nydus wurms popping up, mutas sniping tanks, 4 hatcheries going up on the map... yeah you get the point | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:06 mishimaBeef wrote: yeah but telling workers to mine, or "shining through exceptional macro management" are not visible to viewers and are not exciting aspects of the game i mean yeah it is visible after the fact when you realize "damn he must have really hit his injects to have so many units" but the hype is minimal sorry I actually want games to have depth, not be about HYPE highlights on reddit | ||
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_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:07 Ej_ wrote: sorry I actually want games to have depth, not be about HYPE highlights on reddit there would be depth... tactical depth... sorry see my edit: "its much more hype to have overlords dropping in the back, nydus wurms popping up, mutas sniping tanks, 4 hatcheries going up on the map... yeah you get the point" | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:07 mishimaBeef wrote: there would be depth... tactical depth... sorry see my edit: "its much more hype to have overlords dropping in the back, nydus wurms popping up, mutas sniping tanks, 4 hatcheries going up on the map... yeah you get the point" The problem with that idea is that there has been no real moves to increase the amount of "tactical depth" in the game. So we're losing macro and gaining nothing else to focus on. | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
but please dont dumb down macro requirements too hard, only a bit if really needed | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:06 mishimaBeef wrote: yeah but telling workers to mine, or "shining through exceptional macro management" are not visible to viewers and are not exciting aspects of the game i mean yeah it is visible after the fact when you realize "damn he must have really hit his injects to have so many units" but the hype is minimal its much more hype to have overlords dropping in the back, nydus wurms popping up, mutas sniping tanks, 4 hatcheries going up on the map... yeah you get the point Then let people start with a whole army already and whoever micros the best should win the game. Let's do a pick and ban phase with unit groups before the game so we still have different army compositions and tactics. Damn that would be a nice rts am i right? | ||
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:07 Ej_ wrote: sorry I actually want games to have depth, not be about HYPE highlights on reddit But how about the potential to make the game more Fun to low level/causal players by removing/lowering some of this artificial difficulties, for example if they can make Hatchery closer to the efficiency of Queens? Problem of a game first of foremost should be about the players' experience right? | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:07 _indigo_ wrote: All the ideas in the changes feel great to me, but i'm gonna be sad about the manner mulling gone. Seriously. You can still do the manner sun | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:10 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: The problem with that idea is that there has been no real moves to increase the amount of "tactical depth" in the game. So we're losing macro and gaining nothing else to focus on. that's not true, you are gaining 'attention spending' that can be used to focus on tactical play ... i believe zerg hesitates to commit fully to micro'ing on 3 fronts right now because then they would be missing their injects at home... and if they tried to still hit those injects they are almost certain to mess up one of the engagements and trade poorly... so, they just stick to 1-2 fronts and so they can still safely hit their injects | ||
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:12 The_Red_Viper wrote: Then let people start with a whole army already and whoever micros the best should win the game. Let's do a pick and ban phase with unit groups before the game so we still have different army compositions and tactics. Damn that would be a nice rts am i right? no because strategy and tactics go hand in hand example, i can play a beautiful strategy in chess but if i miss the one key tactic that my superior position gained me then what is the point? yeah my pieces are beautifully positioned but that one key moment i needed to seize with a winning tactic i missed it... strategy and tactics go hand in hand... strategy sets up the tactics | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
On August 01 2015 08:13 mishimaBeef wrote: that's not true, you are gaining 'attention spending' that can be used to focus on tactical play ... i believe zerg hesitates to commit fully to micro'ing on 3 fronts right now because then they would be missing their injects at home... and if they tried to still hit those injects they are almost certain to mess up one of the engagements and trade poorly... so, they just stick to 1-2 fronts and so they can still safely hit their injects well said, totally agree from the zerg perspective | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
a) me as a player not liking them conceptually: singleplayeresque with no decision behind because they are way to strong to not use all the time, in particular injects b) mechanically: tell me of one zerg who in the midst of mutalisk harass and a combat and a runby went like: "gosh I really would like to inject some hatcheries now and park my mutalisk in this corner for a few seconds" but it's actually true. If you have to make the decision to inject or micro the injections are more important. c) strategically: inject attacks are ruining ZvZ early game because they generate too many units too fast. Mass mulehammers are often instantwins for terrans if they can acquire a certain xth base in the lategame, while for the other races its a big investment and risk to place another base on location. Also the notion to kill all your workers to have a bigger army size while maintaining the income is stupid when the other races dont have free units as workers. Chronoboost is actually not bad in any way besides fuelling stupid proxy rushes. But even those could be "saved" simply by tuning the build times. | ||
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