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On August 01 2015 06:00 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 05:57 cabal] wrote:
Removing or automating the macro mechanics will only make the game worse. You cannot remove the skill based abilities and the most severe being the auto cast spawn larva. Just because sc1 did not have those ablities does not mean sc2 does not need them. Sc1 had different ways of showing skill mainly no MBS and 12 unit limit. you have unlimited unit selection in sc2 and mbs. you can make units and f2 your army. That is why macro mechanics are needed to differentiate fast players from slow players. Sure MULES and chrono boost are not that punishing if you miss them since you bank the energy but spawn larva is a different story. At the end of the day that is the problem Injects skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chrono >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mules. And its not fair at all.
It's a trade off, Zerg armies don't need as much micro as Terran does in ZvT but they need more actions(creep, injects) to match the Terran macro. Whether or not its a good trade off is up for discussion, but you would need to rebalance around these changes.
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I'm very surprised at the macro mechanics thing. Unless major changes are made along that, it goes against the "20-minute game" goal that they seem to try to achieve with LotV.
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There's good, and there's not good. This is not good.
Seriously, that community update sucked every last glimmer of hope I had for LotV. Focusing on warpgate nerfs instead of really trying to make Protoss interesting as a race, those idiotic considerations on macro mechanics (needless to say they need to stay the way they are) confirming they think the viewer should be the dictator and the player the slave, their insistance on making warp prism play retardedly broken and frustrating for the opponent... I'm speechless.
Go take some holidays LotV development team, you're doing no good atm.
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On August 01 2015 06:16 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 06:00 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 01 2015 05:57 cabal] wrote:
Removing or automating the macro mechanics will only make the game worse. You cannot remove the skill based abilities and the most severe being the auto cast spawn larva. Just because sc1 did not have those ablities does not mean sc2 does not need them. Sc1 had different ways of showing skill mainly no MBS and 12 unit limit. you have unlimited unit selection in sc2 and mbs. you can make units and f2 your army. That is why macro mechanics are needed to differentiate fast players from slow players. Sure MULES and chrono boost are not that punishing if you miss them since you bank the energy but spawn larva is a different story. At the end of the day that is the problem Injects skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chrono >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mules. And its not fair at all. It's a trade off, Zerg armies don't need as much micro as Terran does in ZvT but they need more actions(creep, injects) to match the Terran macro. Whether or not its a good trade off is up for discussion, but you would need to rebalance around these changes.
Wut ? LBM takes alot of Micro, you think a-moving into WM is possible. In fact Bio vs LBM is the most intensive micro play.
Yes and their option was to take 1 larva out while nerfing MULES a bit and CHRONO as well.
We still have to SPREAD CREEP if you forgot that part.
Units can be tweaked if its a need.
I could also say that against mech its going to be harder to play since you cant just play straight up with vs mech.
Put the bias aside this changes are good for the game that should be focused more on micro and smaller battles then just macro until 200/200 and lets battle.
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On August 01 2015 04:54 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 04:50 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:On August 01 2015 04:48 TT1 wrote:On August 01 2015 04:47 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I agree with the macro mechanics.
People dont know how hard is to Inject on 5-6 bases.
LotV is way harder, terran and protoss have easiest marco.... but zerg is way more complex by far.
I think the Koreans ask them this because it really is hard to do it, some pro players cant even injects perfectly !
You can always use MULES and CHRONO, Inject is not the same. if you're in gold league, then yea WUT ? Even GM cant inject perfectly, even Life had this thing in most of his replays where he forgets queens. Your out of your mind to think Injects are easy. by that time zerg has 5-6 hatches, you dont need perfect larva injects to stay maxed (alot of zergs even add their queens to their army in that stage of the game).. if you dont know what you're talking pls dont spread misinformation.
I agree with TT1, zerglingshephard being one of the most vocal yet the least knowledgeable. Please be more careful saying things you don't know. LIFE IS NOT KNOWN FOR MISSING INJECTS FORGETTING QUEENS OR NOT HAVING LARVAE TO KEEP HIS RESOURCES LOW. You can find a game or two where its spikes a little. But seriously you are just turning to bash the highest level players who do not have problems with injects.
This topic has been explored thoroughly on korean forums like playxp and the consensus is that no more injects than 4 queens are ever necessary even with 5 bases mining and gases on them going. Also, most koreans have excess larvae at the 4 base phase. That's one of the reasons why the remax you see from zergs is so powerful. Removing inject powers is a nerf to zerg.
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I've got it! I know why they are touching on the macro mechanics.
They've watched Archon Mode and think the games are much more fun. That must be because one player is dedicated to army movement and microing. Remove macro and every game will be like Archon mode. Ofc. this would suck for Archon Mode, but you know..
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inject larvae is one of the main features to know what player is good wtf!
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On August 01 2015 05:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 05:22 nottapro wrote:
These changes are really cool direction for the game, they are addressing warp-gates and they are recognizing that the game should be less of a chore.
The game needs to be fun to play, it can't always be tailored towards making it as hard as possible for the sake of it. When you always design it for people who play as a full time job, then the game takes on the same qualities as a full time job, the same level of stress, frustration and feelings of being overworked. It's not fun.
That is not to say the game should be dumbed down, but what they are suggesting; change the focus of the difficulty from areas which are hard for the sake of it, into areas that are still just as hard but also engaging and fun. Except that something like inject is a really great way that a player can distinguish themselves on a macro level. It's one of the actual "busy work" mechanics that truly makes a difference, imo.
Honestly I agree with you there, it's one of the better busywork mechanics, but something has to give. The community tends to argue the game should be as mentally and physically exhausting design as possible, they rally for it out of nostalgia then go home and play less chore-like games.
There is a deep seated conservatism that over-values old systems / mechanics regardless of merit, to the point that people will even passionately argue for 25 year old glitch-ridden path-finding algorithms. These changes today are another example, people hated inject / mules / chronoboost just 5 years ago when they learnt about it, begged for it to be removed, but now its on the chopping block... its become coveted.
If the game is going to move forward, the community will have to recognize this tendency to conserve old systems even if they don't like them and start being more forward thinking. Start to put old ideas on the chopping block and look for more progressive ways to emphasize of difficulty than retaining mechanics they don't even like.
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On August 01 2015 06:28 ejozl wrote:
I've got it! I know why they are touching on the macro mechanics.
They've watched Archon Mode and think the games are much more fun. That must be because one player is dedicated to army movement and microing. Remove macro and every game will be like Archon mode. Ofc. this would suck for Archon Mode, but you know..
SC2 is a game of macro and micro, and, IMO, primarily macro and decisions. Micro should make the difference only at the highest level. I don't think trying to put the emphasis so heavily on "action everywhere yeah viewers blaaaaah" is a good direction for the game.
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@ All the people complaining about this nerfing Protoss and Protoss being really weak atm. Please try and use an ounce of common sense and realize that everyone knows this as well. Warp-gate nerfs should be something Protoss players celebrate because it opens the door for Gateway unit buffs. And Gateway unit buffs might mean that Protoss Gateway armies can trade at least reasonably efficiently with other armies.
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Sorry guys, but where do I change unit production hotkey? :\
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unexpected changes... i'm very hype for them though... goes well with the new direction of creating more visible micro
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 01 2015 06:30 Bohemond wrote:
@ All the people complaining about this nerfing Protoss and Protoss being really weak atm. Please try and use an ounce of common sense and realize that everyone knows this as well. Warp-gate nerfs should be something Protoss players celebrate because it opens the door for Gateway unit buffs. And Gateway unit buffs might mean that Protoss Gateway armies can trade at least reasonably efficiently with other armies.
Not really. If you really think about it this is only a minor nerf to offensive strategies. The moment you start warping in a unit the warpgate goes on cooldown so you're still seeing the same stream of units at the same frequency. While the warping in units are more vulnerable, a lot of aggressive games aren't decided around a player shutting down additional warp ins (and often when they are capable of doing that the strategy is already lost). The change essentially means if you scout it early enough you're more likely to hold it.
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That "pylon connected to a warpgate" thing makes really little sense to me. I liked far more their idea to separate pylon power and warp-in power, with warp-in power being provided by warp prisms, gateways and Nexi for instance.
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I hate the removal of macro mechanics, and I hate the proposed warpgate changes. I hope none of these make it into the end product.
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I hope Blizzard has enough common sense to see that most people screaming "Yay" at the warp-in nerf would scream "yay" at any warp-in nerf just because they had frustrating experiences against P and that there must be better ways to improve warpgate design. This is not even a nerf to offensive strats IMO, 2 sec warp-ins would be soooo retarded, I can see horrible things spawning from that... Aren't there already really broken adept all-ins vs T with a warp prism in their main ?
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I feel like Blizzard, for whatever reason, wants to remove the passive, macro-based kind of player that can thrive, especially as Zerg or Terran, in WoL and HotS. I'm talking about Flash, Bomber, SoO, Cure, Bunny, Major, Hydra, etc. I don't know if this is a bad thing, but I think it's definitely taking place.
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Warp gate change is acceptable. Brings good design changes while maintaining racial macro diversity
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Hi!
I just made an account in TeamLiquid and this is my first write even though I have been reading TL for 1.5 years.
I just wanted to say that I have lost almost all hope In David Kim and LOTV. It seems like the Dev Team and specially DK does not give a damn about whatever complaints and issues the community comes up with. This may be wrong but after seeing all the feedback that is being provided and watching David Kims reaction to it im really beginning to question if he is the man that can make Starcraft great again (even though I think its great right already). Since the Beta started I have seen no effort from Blizzard in order to make changes that really make the game more enjoyable and fun to play. In my opinion, this approach of making sc2 more action packed and fast paced is not what we need, a lot of HOTS players simply are not willing to play with the current LOTV econ system, potential new ones wont play the game because its even more difficult which is a synonim for non-entertaining, non-entertaining meaning dead game.
Furthermore, I feel like the only thing Blizzard is actually achieving with all these changes is dividing the whole sc2 community in two or more parts. Right now TL is like a long angry rant where users just fight each other trying to impose their view on things. And even though I like Drama I think it has reached the point where its just unbearable. Im getting tired of LOTV, im getting tired of this Beta and im getting tired of sc2 if Blizzard does not start working towards a good, well balanced and fun game to play and watch.
As a final thought, I really think that Blizzard does not know how big is exactly the number of people that are disagreeing with them and I think its time for them to really start working with the community (more than they are doing now). I wish they did some kind of referendum in which they can put their changes to the test and see how people want Starcraft to be.
Sorry for the long writeup and for the grammar errors. English is not my native language.
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EPT
