|
This week, we’ve mostly been focusing on iterating on a few specific topics through various meetings, discussions, playtests, and new idea generation.
Warp Gate changes
In last week’s Protoss update, we brought up some potential changes that we were looking at for Warp Gate. We tried a large number of different changes in this area, and where we are currently at is this:
Units take 2 seconds to warp-in at Pylons that have Warpgates touching their pylon power.
Buff to defensive case.
Units take 16 seconds to warp in at Pylons not “connected” to Warpgates.
Huge nerf to the offensive case.
Warp Prism power fields take 2 seconds.
Players will need to tech to Warp Prisms in order to offensive warp in well.
Due to the smaller warp-radius of the Warp Prism, players may require several to effectively warp-in offensively with their army (this is countered somewhat by the fact that the offensive warp-in case is much stronger than before).
We tried many different designs in this area that have ultimately similar results, but this design seems to be the most clean in terms of added rules. With the offensive early warp-ins being less of a threat, we wanted to buff the defensive case and the Warp Prism case. We also felt that it’s ok to have a much stronger Warp Prism because players have had to commit to that tech in order to have access to its strength.
Disruptor
We still agree with you that the current version in the beta is not good, because just being invulnerable for so long doesn’t have the interesting micro and the potential for cool interactions. With that in mind, we’ve actually been focusing heavily on trying out various community suggestions and also branching off our own ideas from your suggestions. We’ll have a better update for you on the Disruptor next week, since we’re not quite done playtesting the various versions and forming conclusions on this area yet.
Alt control group for 1v1
We noticed some players were asking for the new alt control group feature to be added to 1v1, so we wanted to clear up some confusion and make sure that everybody knew that this feature is not specific to archon mode and can be used in any mode of StarCraft 2!
Macro Mechanics
Macro mechanics are something we’ve absolutely seen the community discuss in the past. With Legacy of the Void becoming more difficult to play due to our main goals - more action, micro on both sides during engagements, less downtime, etc. - we have been exploring areas that we can make easier. For these, we’re trying to locate areas that are difficult to manage but aren’t really easily noticeable. For example, as a player doing larva inject, it’s somewhat difficult for me to tell how well I’m doing in a given game. Further, my opponent really has no idea how well I’m doing it either. In esports matches, this is also something that viewers can’t tell either. Because macro mechanics are an area that’s difficult to do, and not many people can really tell how well someone is doing it, we’ve been exploring potentially cutting them or making them less important.
Currently, we’re looking at two options here.
Option 1:
Spawn larva is autocast by default, but spawn only 3 larva.
Mule efficiency is nerfed by 20% or so.
Chrono boost cost increased to 50, and efficiency not quite doubled.
The thought here is that because efficiency is nerfed overall, it’s not as big of a deal to not do these mechanics spot on all the time.
Option 2:
Cut chrono
Cut mule
Spawn larva is autocast by default, but spawn only 2 larva
The thought here is just do away with these added clicks, we do lose a little bit of strategy and decision making but we wonder if that’s ok, and have a clean version where players don’t need to do the extra clicks.
With that said, keep in mind neither of these versions are final, they’re just one of two potential directions we can go in this area.
Shoutouts
Finally, we also wanted to give a shoutout this week to the various Archon mode tournaments going on, as well as the MSI 2015 WSL tournament.
We saw a lot of excitement around the Redbull Archon tournament especially in the TvT series last weekend. BasetradeTV also had many cool moments, and one that was really memorable to us was the situation where a Korean team lost to a new Terran strategy from a foreign team. Then, in the following series, a different Zerg team countered the same strategy using Ravagers. In truth, seeing the more innovative teams performing better than the more “skilled at HotS” teams was pretty awesome.
For HotS, we really enjoyed the first matches of the MSI 2015 WSL. Although the games weren’t the highest skill like we’re used to seeing these days, the more casual and different type of environment was a cool change of pace and very entertaining to watch. Lastly, we wanted to also shoutout to Hungryapp TV for trying something new and fun.
In conclusion, thanks for all the continued feedback on Legacy of the Void. Let us know what you think of these changes and we look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18300016914
|
I hate this focus on action just for action sake. Removing macro mechanics does not mean that players will attack more. Macro for above average players is already too easy.
This does not work well with how fast battles are in SC2. Players need something else to do other than pivoting their deathball for 5 minutes into a battle that ends in a few seconds. Basically, there is not enough longstanding micro (and enough corresponding time to perform such micro) for players to do.
This is a 1v1 game. Both you and your opponent have to keep up with macromechanics, so you end up playing those who are around the same skill level.
I would rather they nerf the effectiveness of macromechanics but keep (or increase) the difficulty of being optimal with them (i.e. more injects/mules/chrono per minute for less larvae/minerals/boost)
Macromechanics are apparent to viewers. Especially with the UI of SC2 and casters to point it out. Both in BW and in SC2, people notice how good players are at pumping out units. Blizzard's proposal dumbs down the playing field even more.
|
If Mule is cutted, will there be a more strategic macromechanic for terran as a replacement? Otherwise you are just gonna mass scans.
A bit surprised Blizzard presents up with this idea without any more specific solutions. That said, I definitely think macromechanics are pretty uninteresting and waste of APM in the game. Not something that I directly dislike, but I think it could improve the experience if you could focus more on unit management.
I hate this focus on action just for action sake. Removing macro mechanics does not mean that players will attack more. Macro for above average players is already too easy.
That's not what he says. He says he doesn't want to have APM-mechanics that aren't visually apparent to viewers.
Players need something else to do other than pivoting their deathball for 5 minutes into a battle that ends in a few seconds.
This is what they are attempting to change with LOTV. More unit vs unit interactions all the time so you never just sit in your base and do nothing (but macro).
|
They can't just remove chronoboost to protoss without any sort of buffs in other areas. Its a huge part in the protoss gameplay. And the different warp-ins time changes seems exagerated, would be better if they were lets say 4 and 8 or something like that. 16 seconds is too much
|
One of the most disappointing community updates as of late.
Protoss is widely regarded as a defensive "deathball" race so they make it weaker offensively and stronger defensively. makes sense.
Also the alt control group feature is terrible, I thought they wanted players to be able to differentiate themselves through their skill and not make the mechanics even more easy than they are now.
Finally they want to tone down/remove the races unique macro mechanics making the races more similar and reducing the required mechanical skill even further.
At this point it wouldn't surprise me if LotV will be a huge failure and kill sc2 as a competitive eSports.
|
On August 01 2015 04:30 IeZaeL wrote:
They can't just remove chronoboost to protoss without any sort of buffs in other areas. Its a huge part in the protoss gameplay. And the different warp-ins time changes seems exagerated, would be better if they were lets say 4 and 8 or something like that. 16 seconds is too much
The macromechanics of the other races receives comparable nerfs, and spawn larva + mule are much more impactful than CB.
Also they are supposed to be "exaggerated" as offensive warpins needs to be nerfed signifciantly. 8 seconds won't accomplish that.
The issue I have with the change is that he isn't really suggesting other changes to protoss and warp prism + adept allins will be further buffed.
|
Some quick polls for these proposed changes:
Poll: Warp-In Nerf ProposalYay (247) 63% Nay (98) 25% Meh (46) 12% 391 total votes Your vote: Warp-In Nerf Proposal (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Macro Mechanic AutoCast Option #1Nay (286) 65% Yay (118) 27% Meh (34) 8% 438 total votes Your vote: Macro Mechanic AutoCast Option #1 (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Macro Mechanic Removal Option #2Nay (299) 67% Yay (127) 28% Meh (22) 5% 448 total votes Your vote: Macro Mechanic Removal Option #2 (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
|
|
|
Full on "yay" for warpgate change, I really like the idea and want to see how it plays out.
As far as macro mechanics go, thats actually something I hear a lot of people complain about. "It's just added clicks" - for the majority of players thats true, but for some players thats pretty much what sets them apart from othes.
I remember Nestea saying "If queen energy over 50, you lose".
On the other hand, many players have 100+ energy on their queens and still win conistently. And Brood war didn't have those mechanics as well...
Really don't know how I feel about that. Definitely something interesting to try out.
|
so protoss is the weakest race in lotv right now and were getting nerfed hard, makes sense
edit (to clarifiy): the only thing we could do that allowed us to win just got nerfed to the ground, adept pressure. everything else about this race is putrid right now.
the funny thing is blizzard previously reverted an offensive warpgate change because it hurt protoss too much (the warpin time nerf).. and now they're nerfing offensive warpgates even harder. wheres the logic in that?
|
On August 01 2015 04:31 Charoisaur wrote:
Protoss is widely regarded as a defensive "deathball" race so they make it weaker offensively and stronger defensively. makes sense.
Protoss is also widely regarded as a race that wins off of bullshit timings that are very difficult to scout and prepare for.
So they make it weaker offensively.
Makes sense.
|
On August 01 2015 04:27 Hider wrote:If Mule is cutted, will there be a more strategic macromechanic for terran as a replacement? Otherwise you are just gonna mass scans. A bit surprised Blizzard presents up with this idea without any more specific solutions. That said, I definitely think macromechanics are pretty uninteresting and waste of APM in the game. Not something that I directly dislike, but I think it could improve the experience if you could focus more on unit management. Show nested quote +I hate this focus on action just for action sake. Removing macro mechanics does not mean that players will attack more. Macro for above average players is already too easy. That's not what he says. He says he doesn't want to have APM-mechanics that aren't visually apparent to viewers. Show nested quote + Players need something else to do other than pivoting their deathball for 5 minutes into a battle that ends in a few seconds. This is what they are attempting to change with LOTV. More unit vs unit interactions all the time so you never just sit in your base and do nothing (but macro).
But macro is apparent to viewers. SC2 has the UI and casters to point out good macro. Heck, even BW viewers can see how good Flash's macro was. It was amazing because of how difficult it is to macro well in BW. With this change especially, SC2 players will have even fewer ways to distinguish themselves.
More unit vs unit interactions all the time has nothing to do with just sitting in your base and doing nothing. You can still sit in your base and do nothing.
The goal is good, but they way Blizzard is trying to do it (by removing other things to do) is not. In this case, we may as well have auto macro and players can focus just on managing their army. What makes Starcraft (BW or SC2) Starcraft is the good balance between macro and micro. Blizzard is shifting way too much into terrible, terrible damage.
|
"It's just added clicks" - for the majority of players thats true, but for some players thats pretty much what sets them apart from othes.
I remember Nestea saying "If queen energy over 50, you lose".
In early 2011, maybe inject seperated pro players. But not today.
|
regardless of the terrible impact of the game, the horrible warpin change will just be extremely complicated. there would need to be two different circles for gateways and pylons so it's clear where you can warpin fast and where not.
For DKs philosophy of "the viewer must be entertained, the player experience doesn't matter" this is not good.
|
On August 01 2015 04:41 purakushi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 04:27 Hider wrote:If Mule is cutted, will there be a more strategic macromechanic for terran as a replacement? Otherwise you are just gonna mass scans. A bit surprised Blizzard presents up with this idea without any more specific solutions. That said, I definitely think macromechanics are pretty uninteresting and waste of APM in the game. Not something that I directly dislike, but I think it could improve the experience if you could focus more on unit management. I hate this focus on action just for action sake. Removing macro mechanics does not mean that players will attack more. Macro for above average players is already too easy. That's not what he says. He says he doesn't want to have APM-mechanics that aren't visually apparent to viewers. Players need something else to do other than pivoting their deathball for 5 minutes into a battle that ends in a few seconds. This is what they are attempting to change with LOTV. More unit vs unit interactions all the time so you never just sit in your base and do nothing (but macro). But macro is apparent to viewers. SC2 has the UI and casters to point out good macro. Heck, even BW viewers can see how good Flash's macro was. It was amazing because of how difficult it is to macro well in BW. More unit vs unit interactions all the time has nothing to do with just sitting in your base and doing nothing. You can still sit in your base and do nothing. The goal is good, but they way Blizzard is trying to do it (by removing other things to do) is not.
Macro is not apparent to viewers.
It took soO making it to two consecutive GSL finals for people to start realizing that his success wasn't based off of flukes, but flawless macro. How often do you remember Tastosis saying "wow look at his macro, no other Zerg would have macroed this well!"
Brilliant macro only becomes evident to professional casters after they rewatch and study the games they cast. What hope do casuals have of noticing it?
|
I agree with the macro mechanics.
People dont know how hard is to Inject on 5-6 bases.
LotV is way harder, terran and protoss have easiest marco.... but zerg is way more complex by far.
I think the Koreans ask them this because it really is hard to do it, some pro players cant even have injects perfectly !
You can always use MULES and CHRONO, Inject is not the same.
|
On August 01 2015 04:44 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 04:41 purakushi wrote:On August 01 2015 04:27 Hider wrote:If Mule is cutted, will there be a more strategic macromechanic for terran as a replacement? Otherwise you are just gonna mass scans. A bit surprised Blizzard presents up with this idea without any more specific solutions. That said, I definitely think macromechanics are pretty uninteresting and waste of APM in the game. Not something that I directly dislike, but I think it could improve the experience if you could focus more on unit management. I hate this focus on action just for action sake. Removing macro mechanics does not mean that players will attack more. Macro for above average players is already too easy. That's not what he says. He says he doesn't want to have APM-mechanics that aren't visually apparent to viewers. Players need something else to do other than pivoting their deathball for 5 minutes into a battle that ends in a few seconds. This is what they are attempting to change with LOTV. More unit vs unit interactions all the time so you never just sit in your base and do nothing (but macro). But macro is apparent to viewers. SC2 has the UI and casters to point out good macro. Heck, even BW viewers can see how good Flash's macro was. It was amazing because of how difficult it is to macro well in BW. More unit vs unit interactions all the time has nothing to do with just sitting in your base and doing nothing. You can still sit in your base and do nothing. The goal is good, but they way Blizzard is trying to do it (by removing other things to do) is not. Macro is not apparent to viewers. It took soO making it to two consecutive GSL finals for people to start realizing that his success wasn't based off of flukes, but flawless macro. How often do you remember Tastosis saying "wow look at his macro, no other Zerg would have macroed this well!" Brilliant macro only becomes evident to professional casters after they rewatch and study the games they cast. What hope do casuals have of noticing it?
Removing things to do in the hopes that players will do something else (that is actually not really related) is not effective. Players do not attack not because macro is too difficult. Players do not attack because they want to build up a bigger army, or they do not feel like an attack will be effective, or that they are down on supply/tech. Having bad macro does not prevent players from attacking.
Sure, noticing macro is more difficult than seeing marine splits or whatever, but what I am talking about is more differentiation between players. Like I said before, SC2 macro is already pretty straightforward. Remember that your opponent has to do macromechanics, too.
|
On August 01 2015 04:47 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
I agree with the macro mechanics.
People dont know how hard is to Inject on 5-6 bases.
LotV is way harder, terran and protoss have easiest marco.... but zerg is way more complex by far.
I think the Koreans ask them this because it really is hard to do it, some pro players cant even injects perfectly !
You can always use MULES and CHRONO, Inject is not the same.
if you're in gold league, then yea
|
im kinda on board with all these changes, id rather test them out too.
I dont think macro mechanics are very beneficial to the game.
A zerg without good larva injects is barely playable. That goes through to the bronze league, where it hurts players the most.
Whos to say that "skilled plays" shouldnt be found elsewhere in the game. Clever decision making, positioning and factors like that should decide the outcome of a game more.
|
With this warpin speed of 2 seconds, you can actually warp in a flank for a whole army. Thats pretty sick.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
