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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:56 BisuDagger wrote: On that note, I'm not a high league player, but I've watched a decade of SC1 and 5 years of SC2 so I think my feedback still holds some ground. Bisu, the question isn't about whether it holds ground or not, it's whether it's as relevant as that of a higher league player. | ||
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flipstar
226 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:54 Ovid wrote: 12 Workers doesn't affect the balance of the game? Strawman, ignoring that the poll is shit. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Of course your question will be answered with "My feedback is the most important". | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19295 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:57 Ovid wrote: Bisu, the question isn't about whether it holds ground or not, it's whether it's as relevant as that of a higher league player. Why are you nit picking at what I said and the way ZenithM said his post too lol. I'll make it clearer for you. Yes, I think my feedback is as relevant as a higher league player. Veteran Pros and Personalities of SC I would put ahead of mine some cases as they are more involved then I am. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Or, hell, just say that you refuse to listen to anyone until they beat you 1v1. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
heck, all the defensive and offensive coordinators... they can't execute shit... but they know how to design the strategy... | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:18 DoubleReed wrote: Wow, Ovid. Just have the discussion and stop trying to outright dismiss people who disagree with you. Or, hell, just say that you refuse to listen to anyone until they beat you 1v1. Besides Tokinho no one has tried to have a discussion on the point with actual evidence, I responded to his point asking for some clarification on the timings so we could better discuss it. The people I am dismissing are due to baseless assertions that I am wrong whilst providing no figures to prove that. I've admitted multiple times in this thread the initial post isn't the clearest at clarifying my point and I also said I would redo it to a much higher standard after I've gathered some more points from this thread. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:54 Ovid wrote: 12 Workers doesn't affect the balance of the game? My point, as BisuDagger explained, is that your poll might be answered differently than you think it should be :D. But anyway, great question. No, I do not think the 12 worker start is much related to balance. Of course the beta is imbalanced, it's a beta, and it may be in part due to the 12 worker start, but it is a design choice, not a balance fix. Shit will get rebalanced around that. So in this case, I do think every opinion is welcome about the 12 worker start. Anyway, I implied earlier than lower league players had no say in balance questions, but that was bullshit, I realize now, any opinion is valid, as long as it's well argumented. It's just that we in general accept that expert players have less need to argument, because their elite status and their deep experience are arguments in itself, an argument from authority if you will. | ||
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flipstar
226 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:15 Ovid wrote: At no point in the poll does it even give the indication that's about you the poster. It's about a higher level player and a lower level player in a vacuum, and you are to decide if you value the lower level players feedback as much than the higher level player. I'm not sure you're reading what people are saying... I don't want to call you stupid, or intellectually dishonest, but one could begin to wonder. I'm sure many gold \ platinum players feedback are more interesting & relevant than mine balancewise even though I'm mid master eu. I rarely watch\study high level starcraft or study replays, so I have never really taken an analytical & dry 'by the numbers and by the books' approach to the game, and get along mostly based on intuition and mechanics. I think about what went wrong after games, think about possible adjustments for a minute, and move on to the next game. I have little knowledge of what others are doing outside of the shallow "Gets muta ling bling vs T". It's not the best approach (I'm lazy and just want to play a game) but I'm sure that there's plenty like me who shouldn't really feel too entitled to have an opinion that carries more weight than other lower league players. You don't have to be a simple minded drone just because you're in gold league, just as you don't have to be Sun Tzu to be in master league. Now go on and make another straw man. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:26 Ovid wrote: Besides Tokinho no one has tried to have a discussion on the point with actual evidence, I responded to his point asking for some clarification on the timings so we could better discuss it. The people I am dismissing are due to baseless assertions that I am wrong whilst providing no figures to prove that. I've admitted multiple times in this thread the initial post isn't the clearest at clarifying my point and I also said I would redo it to a much higher standard after I've gathered some more points from this thread. Err... what does having data have to do with whether they are a high-tier player or not? Obviously two completely unrelated things. I think people would much more enjoy your insufferable attitude if you started challenging people to showmatches. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:20 mishimaBeef wrote: do you value john madden's football strategy over peyton manning's? heck, all the defensive and offensive coordinators... they can't execute shit... but they know how to design the strategy... Not sure how this relates to anything or even proves a point? I know very little about "football" but John madden is an ex pro player who has kept himself immersed in the pro scene ever since. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:31 DoubleReed wrote: Err... what does having data have to do with whether they are a high-tier player or not? Obviously two completely unrelated things. I think people would much more enjoy the insufferable attitude if you starting challenging people to showmatches. Err.. I'm talking data about 12 workers (IE the point of this thread) not them being a high tier player? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:33 Ovid wrote: Err.. I'm talking data about 12 workers (IE the point of this thread) not them being a high tier player? lol says the person who made a poll directly telling low-tier players to STFU. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 22:27 flipstar wrote: I'm not sure you're reading what people are saying... I don't want to call you stupid, or intellectually dishonest, but one could begin to wonder. I'm sure many gold \ platinum players feedback are more interesting & relevant than mine balancewise even though I'm mid master eu. I rarely watch\study high level starcraft or study replays, so I have never really taken an analytical & dry 'by the numbers and by the books' approach to the game, and get along mostly based on intuition and mechanics. I think about what went wrong after games, think about possible adjustments for a minute, and move on to the next game. I have little knowledge of what others are doing outside of the shallow "Gets muta ling bling vs T". It's not the best approach (I'm lazy and just want to play a game) but I'm sure that there's plenty like me who shouldn't really feel too entitled to have an opinion that carries more weight than other lower league players. You don't have to be a simple minded drone just because you're in gold league, just as you don't have to be Sun Tzu to be in master league. Now go on and make another straw man. I think you are doing yourself a disservice, mechanical ability is probably enough to get you to masters but I'm willing to bet you would have more game knowledge than your average gold league player. On July 20 2015 22:34 DoubleReed wrote: lol says the person who made a poll directly telling low-tier players to STFU. Yes a poll on the 4th page of the thread after Hider and I managed to derail it into purely a discussion about whether certain peoples opinions are as valid as others is indicative of what I intended for this thread. On July 20 2015 22:35 mishimaBeef wrote: right... so if one can execute a few builds at pro tier, but lack the consistency or complete playbook of an actual pro, and one immerses themselves in the pro scene, then their feedback should be valued as much as a pro, if not more, despite their current league being possibly gold, or w/e If they can execute a few builds at pro tier and have proper game knowledge why would they be in gold? You're trying to make a point but failing to make the connection that the knowledge/execution would have an impact upon their ranking in the ladder system... | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16905 Posts
However, a substantial increase in the # of starting workers makes the first 2 minutes of LotV more fun than HotS. past minute 2 i feel LotV is just as much fun or more fun than HotS. Whether the perfect starting # is 9,10,11,12,13.. i have no idea. EDIT: i've been in the LotV beta since week 2. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:59 flipstar wrote: Strawman, ignoring that the poll is !@#$%^&*. The problem with the poll is also that it doesn't specify what type of feedback it is, which is pretty relevant. In this context it came as a response to me stating that I don't find the decision between a 13 vs 17 supply build order interesting (any of the builds lost aren't really something I will be missing and the OP also doesn't discuss if any new builds have been "won" - It seems unlikely to me that this only goes one way). Apparently my feedback here is less valuable according to Ovid because he assumed I had to be a low-level player in order to say that (?) One could easily think that the poll would be about gamebalance or dynamics. Honestly if I just looked at that poll without knowing the context, I would probably have voted that high level player feedback matters more. This is just another example of Ovid misleading people with his posts. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Now I understand your argument, but as someone who didn't use much of early cheese at all, nor liked playing against them, I won't miss at all the builds we lost that way. And of course, different builds will pop up anyway, I don't see what's alarming with that. As for the rest of what this change brings, as I said earlier, the game will get fine-tuned around it, like it always has been. And I'm also sure that a lot of players play like me: not using too much hard cheese themselves (proxy 2 gating a random player on the ladder, like really?) and not enjoying much playing against them either. | ||
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