EPT12 Worker start is ultimately bad for the game - Page 4
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 20 2015 08:02 BisuDagger wrote: What if you start with six but workers mine eight instead of five! Lol. Honestly though, how come no one talks about increased mining amount instead of harvester count? Now that would speed up the game a bunch ;D. People already think there is some kind of "exponential growth" at hand with 12 workers, don't give them a heart attack! | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
On July 20 2015 15:33 ZenithM wrote: Now that would speed up the game a bunch ;D. People already think there is some kind of "exponential growth" at hand with 12 workers, don't give them a heart attack! The best parts is that it would be a huge nero to the mule. Non Terrans have been complaining about that forever. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1422 Posts
meh. | ||
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IceBerrY
Germany220 Posts
How exactly did cheese die out? Instead of a 6 pool there will be another equivalent. I mean, if one goes straight for the expansion and the oponenent puts out 2 barracks next door, isn´t that a cheese as well? Maybe i am wrong, in that case please explain it to me. | ||
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ThunderBum
Australia192 Posts
People who have actually played with the new model seem to like it on the whole. But by all means, keep telling them they're wrong. I'll go get you some more tissues. | ||
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tokinho
United States792 Posts
On July 20 2015 06:13 Ovid wrote: Why am I surprised that you'd disagree with me after our discussion in the other thread? Thank you for making a personal insult on my writing (which I touched upon in my post, long exposition isn't my forte) I will probably collect all the relevant points/information from this thread and make a more streamlined and better explained one at a later date. If you read my post you would realise that I calculated my timings to Lotv/real world timing, Hots runs at 1.34x the speed of Lotv so all I did to my timings is find 72.5% of the Hots time (converted into seconds then converted back) I'm interesting in how you calculated your timings? So your first attempted point is moot, but you didn't read my original correctly otherwise you would realise I accounted for that, too keen to score points. Your second point is also moot, 13 overlord is considered the standard, you say I don't watch the LOTUS tournaments pause the video at the 38m24s. You will see Lambo going 13 overlord. Because you don't care about a build for a race that is not your own doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in the game your assertion that for the most part early pools are not good and are countered is blatantly false. 9 Pool vs 15 Hatch is a very common thing and leads to interesting games that often develop into macro. 6 Pool is not a common play, but if you are a game up in a BoX match and it's likely that your opponent will do a CC first then 6 pool is a valid potential build and it's what keep players honest, you're not going to see a CC first very often vs Hyvaa (when he was playing) or Shine. Your fourth point is invalid, Blizzard have recognised that micro is an aspect of the game that is lacking and have made it a key priority for the expansion. Your point about PvZ holds true in Lotv except it's even more common here since Protoss is much weaker at securing the third and because bases mine out much quicker tech plays or pressure have too tight a timing window. PvZ has matured a lot in Hots, it's not always 7 Gate or an equivalent most games Protoss will make it to 3/4 bases. It's partly how protoss is designed, they struggle to take map control since sitting back defending is often a stronger play. 200/200 fights occur in both, it's not helped by the 12 worker change but that's a different aspect of the game. I personally feel that 200/200 fights will be more common in Lotv when people have figured out the all ins more. I don't like to cheese on ladder because the percentage of it working is an unknown I respect cheese in tournaments, I like to put pressure on my opponent and take control of the game I don't have as many options to do that anymore because passively sitting and getting my economy and army up to a point where I can slow/deny their expansions whilst keeping mine going is the better/stronger play, a three base cap still exists and I can quite comfortably be maxed whilst on 4 bases. Cheese/Transitional aggression are different, I would call a 9 pool a macro build since it shouldn't end the game vs a decent player but should put you in a controlling position to dictate the pace of the game. Please support your retort with correct reading of my original post and less "it doesn't affect me therefore it doesn't matter" Yeah, I'm definitely down to explain things. I think an attempt at constructive criticism will help. First off, your post is crap because the statement that the change in build times is 40 seconds is simply not true, and the actual number in hots time is 1:51 seconds for zerg. If blizzard sees this and reached the same conclusion i did, i cannot possibly understand how they would give you any credibility. Secondly, having inaccurate data, which in turn does not actually help support the idea that losing that 1:51 seconds per game and decreasing the odds of having cheese games is better for the game. The main thing you see when you look at the posts is this data. Thus i would have wanted it rewritten without this data with more of a discussion about how cheese builds are better for the game over having to sit 2 minutes longer for each game. Let me touch on comparison of economic measurements. So 3:40 is when speed finishes in lotv and you have saturated 2 bases at this time + an additional 3 workers on gas in macro play. In hots, @ 6:00 when speed finishes you have 2 saturated gases, but 3 less workers. So timings should hit at 3:40 or at 6:00 for ling rushes. Now we can do this timing adjustment for almost any build in hots. If you extrapolate 6:00 to 8:40 its 2 minutes and 10 seconds hots time. If you extrapolate 3:40 which is when speed finishes off 18 pool 17 gas the the timing of the roach ling bane allin happens at 5:20. The difference is the three workers. Which results in an optimal timing which happens faster for the same army value between the two timings. Thus, the builds are not comparable in time. If you want to compare builds you have to have 18 hatch, 17 gas, 16 pool, since speed finishes at 3:28 with this build. The fact is you have 3 extra larvae if you don't cut corners. So the timings have 3 extra larvae which is money not in the bank. If you didn;t cut those corners, you don't have the larvae and have an economic advantage over what you have in hots. The fact is that relative to the midgame timings, early timings come later not sooner. So a 18 pool that finishes at 2:00 has speed at and the timing on a ling bane allin as executed in hots vs lotv is 8:45 vs 5:20. The protoss oracle into blink allin is 9:05 vs 5:35. The optimal timing on the overloard is 14ovie/14 extractor trick over 13. This is why its more common in builds from drg, true, vibe, and most other zergs. You can test it yourself. Zerg and terran do not experience as severe of the effects of the fallout from the bases mining out at 7:30. Sample roach ling bane allin build + Show Spoiler + 14 ovie 0:17 14 extractor trick 0:23 17 hatchery 0:50 17 pool 1:07 18 gas 1:16 (put on gas 1:35) 19 overloard 1:38 19 lings 1:55/2:00 20 queen 1:55 24 queen 2:05 28 pull 2 off gas 2:16 28 metabolic boost 2:16 31 queen 2:32 34 overloards 2:44 34 2-3 more sets of lings to help take third 36 Overloard 2:56 38 overloard 3:06 42 queen 3:05 44 2nd gas 3:10 44 Roach warren 3:20 ~48 Third Hatchery 3:40 3:40 stop droning, benchmark=38 workers to make 3 sets of lings, then 3 more workers 50 overloard 3:50 50 baneling nest 3:55 49 3 more workers 3:55 52 3 overloards 4:06 52 12 roaches ~4:20-4:40 70 lings lings and lings 4:35 push with roaches across map ~90 supply morph at their base ~10 banelings 5:05 5:20 attack with 2 queens and army ~95 supply Thus the data from your post is not a reliable indicator as the relative timing of the builds and optimal mid game timings are shifted. + Show Spoiler + Zerg LOTV 13 Overlord 17 Hatch 18 Pool. Pool Finishes at 2:00 HOTS 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 16 Pool. Pool Finishes at 2:40 Protoss LOTV 13 Pylon 15 Gate. Gate Finishes at 1:20 HOTS 9 Pylon 13 Gate. Gate Finishes at 1:58 LOTV 13 Pylon 18 Nexus 19 Gateway. Gate Finishes at 2:04 HOTS 9 Pylon 15 Nexus 16 Gateway. Gate Finishes at 2:41 Terran LOTV 14 Depot 16 Rax. Rax Finishes at 1:27 HOTS 9 Depot 12 Rax. Rax Finishes at 1:56 LOTV 14 Depot 17 CC 18 Rax. Rax Finishes at 2:00 HOTS 9 Depot 15 CC 16 Rax. Rax Finishes at 2:46 I didn't include a pool first because in Lotv there is no build that can stop a hatch first without a proper reaction from the Zerg meaning hatch first is the only build you should be doing. Average Time Saved Zerg 40 Seconds Protoss 37.5 Seconds Terran 37.5 Seconds From my time spent on testing build orders for my post about protoss and comparing them to the other races The early timings come later, but the relative early mid-game timings come relatively the same for all three races. In my post i mentioned this approximation of how the timing affects the both mining out and the changes in game play that have resulted from the economic changes in lotv. + Show Spoiler + 1. Key Economy changes- Surprisingly after much testing of comparable builds from hots to lotv and the builds that are used on streams like Crank, Vibe, or Nightend. There are a big set of patterns, which result in similar timings as would happen in hots up to a point(see supplementary data of my timings tables) Disclaimer, I make most of my build orders with time, supply, and worker counts, then i build decision trees on top of the build orders to understand the major styles of gameplay. With that in mind, I've looked at the timings for Zerg, Protoss, and terran. I've found that the timings for Zerg and terran rarely change much, but Protoss changes once the game hits around the 8 minute mark of lotv. There is a fallout, the army value is not as high as it should be. This fallout changes a little bit when it happens so I've been trying to identify exactly why. My conclusion is that the mineral patches start to mine out much faster and much of the Protoss play is based of the mineral patches being consistent. So, a definition I make is called mineral fallout. Its the point when the mineral income begins to decrease from a base. Main base and natural base mineral fallout occurs at ~7:20 and ~11:20 respectively in Legacy of the void. I use an approximation when i'm doing testing with build orders. Its a linear formula. I take the time in hots, subtract 1 minute and 20 seconds, convert the time to seconds, divide the time by 1.38 then convert back to an in game time. so 11:15 hots ~ ((11:15-1:20)/1.38) ~7:20 lotv. This works fairly well to estimate builds. In other words, the initial 12 worker start gives about 1:21 seconds boost using hots time or about 60 seconds using LOTV time for builds that use the 3:55 nexus hots, 2:05 nexus lotv. Fallout occurs at about 17 minutes in hots vs (10:05+1:21) ~11:15 in hots, before maxing out and about 22 minutes from the natural. (this is similar in timing to when Protoss take a third in pvp. So in lotv taking a third at 12 minutes comparable build time to hots, is almost optimal for worker transfer. The end result is that 3 base saturation in pvp, I think will be nearly non-existent because of a loss of income. In terms of PvZ and PvT, if you don't have a third by 7:20 hots time, you are starting to lose mineral income and going to 66 workers doesn't make as much sense as stopping at 60. Zerg and terran on the other hand still have similar optimal worker saturation. ~60 for terran ~74 for Zerg. I provide a sample build for comparable builds between hots and lotv I'm working on as well as in the supplementary the effective timings table I'm working on. + Show Spoiler + Sample timing of most common opener in hots- Example build order 1: WCS 06/25/2015 Lilbow vs Marinelord game 1 wcs premier season 2 LilBow wins 6 gate oracle blink allin Chronos 12 prb,14prb,16prb,18prb,21 msc,oracle, 1xprob, 2x blink, rest gates 9 pylon 0:48 13 gate 1:41 15 assim 2:02 16 pylon 2:19 18 cybercore 2:46 18 assim 2:51 (put only 2 on when it finishes, third on @ 26 supply while building pylon (4:30) 21 Msc 3:38 rally worker to take nexus. 23 nexus 3:55 (scout with this worker) 24 stargate 4:18 (cut worker) 25/26 pylon 4:36 26 warp gate 4:40 29 oracle 5:18 (arrives in base at 6:20) 31 hidden pylon 5:20 33 stalker 5:30 38 twilight council 6:02 42 2 gates 6:40 45 4th/5th gate way 7:05. 7:15 45 blink 7:10 (chrono) 47 gate 7:40 make 3 pylons along path starting at 7:40 (47/52) 7:50 push out with single stalker and start making pylons Benchmark 9:05 40 workers, 11 stalkers, oracle, msc, blink finished, warp gates ready 8 pylons 9:20 blink into main 9:40 make 6 more workers/ 3rd and 4th gases Comparable build in LOTV- + Show Spoiler + Chronos 4x probes, 1x msc, 1x oracle, 1xprob, 2x blink, rest gates 4 chronos nexus, 1 oracle, 2 blink Lotv build order 13 pylon 0:13 15 gate 0:32 17 assim 0:48 18 pylon 1:06 20 Cybercore 1:20 20 assim 1:24 23 msc 1:58 25 nexus 2:05 25 stargate 2:12 26 Warpgate 2:27 26 proxy pylon 2:28 28 oracle 2:58 stalker twilight ~3:20 2 gates blink ~3:57 3 gates 4:20 start pylon trail 4:40 push out Benchmark 5:35 40 workers, 11 stalkers, oracle, msc, blink finished, warp gates ready 8 pylons Even with all the information about how timings were calculated, I decided to compile them into the format used on imbabuilds. Thus, I created the additional build timings table- The purpose was to benchmark armies at times in the game and run a build several times with the relative same opener into the same transition, as was shown from the sample build above. The time is when the benchmarks hit. Supplementary timing conversion tables- + Show Spoiler + **Note i've tested a little over half of these and felt confident enough to post them. --------------------------------------------------- Timings Conversion tables. Hots Table from imba builds 3:40 – Unit-less 1gate FE starts Nexus (PvX) 4:00 5:00 5:05 – Earliest Proxy Oracle can hit your base (PvP/PvT) 5:30 – 2 Stalker + Mothership Core pressure hits your base (PvT) 5:30 – Trap’s 3gate All-in hits your base (PvP) 5:35-6:30 – Mothership Core can first scout your base (PvP/PvT) 6:00 6:00 – 4gate can hit your base (PvX) 6:30 – Gate Expand into 5gate pressure hits your base (PvZ) 6:45 – Early Dark Shrine finishes (PvP/PvT) 7:00 7:00 – 2 Base Oracle finishes (PvT/PvZ) 7:22 – Earliest DT Drop (PvT/PvZ) 7:30 – Warpgate will finish after a Forge Fast Expand (PvZ) 7:35 – Early Warp Prism attacks hit your base (PvP/PvT) 7:40 – 1 Base Blink All-in hits your base (PvP/PvT) 8:00 8:30 – 2 Base Blink hits your base (PvT) 9:00 9:30 – 1st Colossus will finish in standard play (PvT) 9:30 – Storm will first finish in standard play (PvT) 3rd base will try to be taken (PvZ) 10:00 10:30 – 1st Colossus will finish after Phoenix opener (PvZ) 11:00 Chargelot/Archon Timings can first hit (PvT) 3rd base will try to be taken (PvP/PvT) 12:00 2 Base Colossus Timings can hit (PvT) 13:00 Storm after Colossus-First can be finished (PvT) 3 Base Colossus Timings can hit (PvZ) Lotv Version with numbers 1:58 – Unit-less 1gate FE starts Nexus (PvX) 2:45 – Earliest Proxy Oracle can hit your base (PvP/PvT) 3:00 – 2 Stalker + Mothership Core pressure hits your base (PvT) 3:00 – Trap’s 3gate All-in hits your base (PvP) 3:00 - 3:45 – Mothership Core can first scout your base (PvP/PvT) 3:22 – 4gate can hit your base (PvX) 3:45 – Gate Expand into 5gate pressure hits your base (PvZ) 3:55 – Early Dark Shrine finishes (PvP/PvT) 4:05 – 2 Base Oracle finishes (PvT/PvZ) 4:20 – Earliest DT Drop (PvT/PvZ) 4:30 – Warpgate will finish after a Forge Fast Expand (PvZ) 4:30 – Early Warp Prism attacks hit your base (PvP/PvT) 4:35 – 1 Base Blink All-in hits your base (PvP/PvT) 5:10 – 2 Base Blink hits your base (PvT) 6:00 – 1st Colossus/disruptor will finish in standard play (PvT) 6:00 – Storm will first finish in standard play (PvT) 5:10 - 6:15 3rd base will try to be taken (PvZ) 6:40 – 1st Colossus will finish after Phoenix opener (PvZ) 6:40 Chargelot/Archon Timings can first hit (PvT) 6:16-7:40 3rd base will try to be taken (PvP/PvT) 7:50 2 Base Colossus Timings can hit (PvT) 8:50 Storm after Colossus-First can be finished (PvT) 8:50 3 Base Colossus Timings can hit (PvZ) ----------------------------------------------------- Comprehensive List of Terran Timings by In-Game Clock 2:00 2:20 – CC First is initially planted (TvZ/TvP) 2:42 – 12 Barracks finishes (TvX) 3:00 3:05 – Gas First Factory starts (TvT) 3:10 – First Marine finishes after standard Barracks (TvX) 3:15 – First Reaper finishes after 8-8-8 Proxy Reaper (TvZ/TvT) 3:20 – First Bunker goes down with Proxy 2rax starts (TvZ) 3:35 – First Reaper finishes after standard Barracks (TvX) 4:00 4:40 – First Proxy Widow Mine finishes (TvP) 5:00 5:30 – 3rd CC can be started (TvZ) 6:00 6:10 – Gas First Banshee finishes (TvT) 6:20 – 1 Base Widow Mine Drop can hit your base (TvT/TvP) 6:30 – Barracks First Banshee finishes (TvT) 6:45 – First Hellions after CC First will reach your base (TvT/TvZ) 6:45 – First Proxy Thor finishes (TvT) 7:00 7:00 – First Hellions after Reaper opener will reach your base (TvZ) 7:40 – 2 Base Widow Mine Drop can hit your base (TvT/TvP) 7:50 – 2 Base Hellbat Drop can hit your base (TvZ) 8:00 8:00 – 1 Base Marine/Tank All-in can first hit your base (TvT) 9:00 9:30 – 2 Base Marine/Hellion timings can hit your 3rd (TvZ) 10:00 10:00 – 2 Base Bio pushes can first hit your base (TvX) 10:30 – 2 Base Bio pushes after Widow Mine Drop can first hit your base (TvT/TvP) 11:00 12:00 3 Base Marine/Medivac/Widow Mine pushes can first hit your 3rd (TvZ) 13:00 Ghost production can begin after standard Bio opener (TvP) 14:00 Bio+SCV Pull All-in (TvP) ------------------------------ Comprehensive List of Terran Timings by In-Game Clock LOTV (untested) 0:56 – CC First is initially planted (TvZ/TvP) 1:05 – 14 Barracks finishes (TvX) 3:00 1:16 – Gas First Factory starts (TvT) 1:20 – First Marine finishes after standard Barracks (TvX) 1:20 – First Reaper finishes after 8-8-8 Proxy Reaper (TvZ/TvT) 1:25 – First Bunker goes down with Proxy 2rax starts (TvZ) 1:40 – First Reaper finishes after standard Barracks (TvX) 2:25 – First Proxy Widow Mine finishes (TvP) 3:00 – 3rd CC can be started (TvZ) 3:30 – Gas First Banshee finishes (TvT) 3:35 – 1 Base Widow Mine Drop can hit your base (TvT/TvP) 3:45 – Barracks First Banshee finishes (TvT) 3:55 – First Hellions after CC First will reach your base (TvT/TvZ) 3:55 – First Proxy Thor finishes (TvT) 4:00 – First Hellions after Reaper opener will reach your base (TvZ) 4:35 – 2 Base Widow Mine Drop can hit your base (TvT/TvP) 4:35 - Tank drops can hit your base. 4:40 – 2 Base Hellbat Drop can hit your base (TvZ) 4:50 – 1 Base Marine/Tank All-in can first hit your base (TvT) 5:50 – 2 Base Marine/Hellion timings can hit your 3rd (TvZ) 6:10 – 2 Base Bio pushes can first hit your base (TvX) 6:35 – 2 Base Bio pushes after Widow Mine Drop can first hit your base (TvT/TvP) 7:40 3 Base Marine/Medivac/Widow Mine pushes can first hit your 3rd (TvZ) 8:30 Ghost production can begin after standard Bio opener (TvP) 9:00 Bio+SCV Pull All-in (TvP) ---------------------------------- Comprehensive List of Zerg Timings by In-Game Clock 2:00 2:00 – 7pool finishes (ZvX) 2:10 – Hatchery First placed (ZvX) 2:17 – 10pool finishes (ZvX) 2:55 – 14pool finishes (ZvP/ZvZ) 3:00 3:10 – 3rd Hatchery started if going for a 3 Hatch before Pool (ZvT/ZvP) 3:12 – 7pool reaches your base (ZvX) 3:30 – 10pool reaches your base (ZvX) 3:55 – Earliest a 3rd Hatchery can go down when opening 14 Pool (ZvP) 4:00 4:45 – Metabolic Boost finishes in Speedling All-in (ZvP) 4:55 – Metabolic Boost finishes after 14gas/14pool (ZvP/ZvZ) 5:00 5:20 – Standard 3rd Hatchery Timing after gasless 15 Hatchery (ZvT) 6:00 6:30 – 2base Baneling Bust (ZvX) 6:45 – Metabolic Boost finishes after Hatchery First (ZvX) 7:00 8:00 8:00 – 2base Roach/Ling All-in can hit your base (ZvT/ZvZ) 8:45 – 2base Roach/Bane All-in can hit your base (ZvT/ZvZ) 9:00 9:00 – 2base Spire will finish (ZvX) 9:15 – Earliest a 2base Swarm Host/Queen Nydus can hit your base (ZvP) 10:00 10:00 – +1/+1 Roach Timing can hit your base (ZvT/ZvZ) 11:00 3base Speed Roach/Baneling Timing can hit your base (ZvT) 3base Spire will finish (ZvP/ZvT) 12:00+ Depending on the amount of aggression in the game, Zerg can finish Hive research around this time (ZvX) Comprehensive List of Zerg Timings by In-Game Clock (LOTV) 2:00 1:20 – 12 pool finishes (ZvX) 0:56 – Hatchery First placed (ZvX) 1:14 – 3rd Hatchery started if going for a 3 Hatch before Pool (ZvT/ZvP) 1:54 – 12pool reaches your base (ZvX) 1:55 – Earliest a 3rd Hatchery can go down when opening 16 Pool (ZvP) 2:50 – Metabolic Boost finishes in Speedling All-in (ZvP) 2:55 – Metabolic Boost finishes after 14gas/14pool (ZvP/ZvZ) 3:05 – Standard 3rd Hatchery Timing after gasless 17 Hatchery (ZvT) 3:45 – 2base Baneling Bust (ZvX) 3:55 – Metabolic Boost finishes after Hatchery First (ZvX) 4:10 - 3 ravager timing 4:40 – 2base Roach/Ling All-in can hit your base (ZvT/ZvZ) 5:20 – 2base Roach/Bane All-in can hit your base (ZvT/ZvZ) 9:00 – 2base Spire will finish (ZvX) 5:35 – Earliest a 2base Swarm Host/Queen Nydus can hit your base (ZvP) 6:05 – +1/+1 Roach Timing can hit your base (ZvT/ZvZ) 6:50 3base Speed Roach/Baneling Timing can hit your base (ZvT) 6:50 3base Spire will finish (ZvP/ZvT) When you fit the core timings The formula comes out at lotv_time_zerg=(hots_time_zerg-111.8s)/1.378 Thus the approximate amount of time lost in the early game due to the 12 worker start is 1 minute 51 seconds. The curves are slightly different and zerg has the most advantage. Thus, i see why you want to have the 9 worker start, but i feel like the fact that 9 worker opener comes out less than 15% of zerg games globally that the amount of time saved from dropping 1:51 each game that would not have had that start against the choice of having a pressure build which blindly gives a player which may in fact be worse a larger advantage and a better chance to beat the better player of less interest to me. ------------------------------------------------- Please feel free to test this yourself to convince yourself whether or not I am right. I have only done this for about 30 builds with about 6-12 iterations on each one to reach what I consider the optimal timing in comparing the WCS season 2 replays with lotv economic changes. It took me about 4-5 hours a day for a few weeks to do this. ------------------------------------------------- Again, the problem I have with the post is that I prefer faster starts by 1:50 and the increase in the likelihood of a high level player not being cheesed out of the game over having realistically a very small number of increased openers both claims I feel that you do not like. The 37.5 seconds and 40 seconds comparison is not a good one to state that you think that the 9 pool is an important strategic aspect of the game and its the only data supplied in the original post. If in fact it is good for the game, blizzard i don't think would take your post seriously if they have reached the same conclusion i have about how the build timings have changed. Thus, I would appreciate that this data be removed from the original post in favor of a more focused discussion on the usage of 9 pool and other cheese openers from the other races and how they improve both the player and viewer experience. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
So you're saying that you didn't play/enjoy hots because of it having 6 workers? How on earth did you get to that conclusion. 1 issue with a game =/ bad game. The whole concept of a casual is flawed, people list casuals as time limited simple minded drones and say that games like LoL have a lot of casuals, a game where average gametime is much longer than SC2 and gameplay on a basic level is much less intuitive than the simple core concepts of playing SC2. You design a game that is fun for the target group = Game design 101. Games do not become succesful if they are not fun to play. Who is to decide what is fun? If you only value feedback from master+ players and their opinions (hypothetically speaking) aren't shared by the 98%, then you are unlikely to create a succesful game. And the esport-part won't be succesful if you don't have a large playerbase behind it. That's not to say that the skillcap of the game doesn't matter either, hence why you should try to strive for easy-to-learn/hard to master. That said, I don't think there is a significant disprepancy between what master+ players value and gold league players value. But my point is that league don't matters when it comes to feedback to design/aka what is fun or not. Imagine you are Mike Morhaime and you are hiring a game designer, one of them has extensive knowledge of how the game functions and how it plays out when executed correctly the other knows nothing about the game but thinks his changes would be fun. Who are you going to hire? Please understand that the gold league player isn't responsible for designing the game. What we are talking about is feedback. Examples of feedback: - Forcefields are boring to play against. - Game is too unforgiving - Early game is boring. The game designer should then listen to the feedback and try to create improvements based on the feedback. That's how ever succesful business work. Ease of playing isn't a prerequisite for what makes a good spectator sport, what makes a good spectator sports is consistency and clear indicators of skill at different aspects of the game When did I sat that was the case?? But a fun game is mandatory to get people to play the game in the first place. So if the player-to-viewer ratio is unchanged, a more fun game will make the game more succesful as an esport as well. | ||
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fenix404
United States305 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 19:08 Hider wrote: How on earth did you get to that conclusion. Pretty big strawman. One issue with a game =/ bad game. You design a game that is fun for the target group = Game design 101. Games do not become succesful if they are not fun to play. Who is to decide what is fun? If you only value feedback from master+ players and their opinions (hypothetically speaking) aren't shared by the 98%, then you are unlikely to create a succesful game. And the esport-part won't be succesful if you don't have a large playerbase behind it. That's not to say that the skillcap of the game doesn't matter either, hence why you should try to strive for easy-to-learn/hard to master. That said, I don't think there is a significant disprepancy between what master+ players value and gold league players value. But my point is that league don't matters when it comes to feedback to design/aka what is fun or not. And once again again you are comparing apples to oranges. Please understand that the gold league player isn't responsible for designing the game. What we are talking about is feedback. Examples of feedback: - Forcefields are boring to play against. - Game is too unforgiving - Early game is boring. The game designer should then listen to the feedback and try to create improvements based on the feedback. That's how ever succesful business work. When did I sat that was the case. Another strawman? But a fun game is mandatory to get people to play the game in the first place. So if the player-to-viewer ratio is unchanged, a more fun game will make the game more succesful as an esport as well. Initial point you quoted was rhetorical, it was to highlight the exact conclusion you came to. This change will not affect viewership or player base negatively but will affect the games structure/pace positively. This is the only successful RTS, even if they created a steaming pile of excrement it would still have very large initial sales, the game needs to be balanced around the top level because that's going to be the theoretical limits of what people can do. No point in making something fun/balanced for the gold leagues but imbalanced for the top level. Yes this is feedback but there's useful feedback and less useful feedback, I feel if I say more here we're just going to be going round in circles. You can read some of the other peoples opinion on this pretty sure most people are going to say that the higher level players feedback should be/is more valued. | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
You're talking about game design but the important aspect of game design is in master league. If anything 12 worker start will reduce the overall amount of frustrating all-ins (hidden proxies) and make the game more fun for lower leagues. And those who like cheesing can still do it. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
My timings are correct for what I tested which was when the first army production could take place. You completely gloss over the statements you made about me that were false. Your timings are actually very interesting and it's a good way of setting about, it also highlights my point of the game contracting in time much more rapidly losing the distinct phases of the game. I would just like to clarify about your timings post, you listed 2 base spire in the LOTV section at 9:00 which is obviously incorrect. Secondly for clarity why haven't you converted the HOTS timings into LOTV timing so you can distinctly see the differences in times? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 20 2015 19:51 Geiko wrote: As I've said before, the whole "sc2 needs to be designed for gold leaguers' fun" isn't valid with regards to 12 worker start. 12 worker start doesn't take away any "fun" elements for gold leaguers. You can still happilly proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, 3 rax and 12 pool all you want in gold league, and when you'll get good enough at doing that, you'll be laddering yourself up to master league where it'll stop working but where the game will be correctly balanced. You're talking about game design but the important aspect of game design is in master league. If anything 12 worker start will reduce the overall amount of frustrating all-ins (hidden proxies) and make the game more fun for lower leagues. And those who like cheesing can still do it. Well said, you can pretty much learn to execute any build well enough that it's successful in lower leagues. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On July 20 2015 19:51 Geiko wrote: As I've said before, the whole "sc2 needs to be designed for gold leaguers' fun" isn't valid with regards to 12 worker start. 12 worker start doesn't take away any "fun" elements for gold leaguers. You can still happilly proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, 3 rax and 12 pool all you want in gold league, and when you'll get good enough at doing that, you'll be laddering yourself up to master league where it'll stop working but where the game will be correctly balanced. I think so too, and the discussion about rank seems pointless for the 12-worker discussion. This was just Ovid who brought it up as a response to my comments because I wrote that the difference between 17 and 13 supply build orders isn't very interesting (or I don't what else led him to incorrectly believe that I had to be below masters). The value of that feedback doesn't depend on whether it comes from a gold leaguer or a master+ player. In fact, I might value the feedback from a gold league more since he (perhaps) represents a larger percentage of the target group. You're talking about game design but the important aspect of game design is in master league. When it comes to how the gamedynamic/microinteractions function when the gameplay is closer to be "figured out", you would obviously look at higher level of play to see whether that's satisfactory or not. But that's not really related to whether you find something interesting or not. This is the only successful RTS, even if they created a steaming pile of excrement it would still have very large initial sales, the game needs to be balanced around the top level because that's going to be the theoretical limits of what people can do. No point in making something fun/balanced for the gold leagues but imbalanced for the top level. Okay I am done responding to you. You have consistently showed that you are uncapable of comparing apples to apples and making strawman after strawman. You start the discussion of whether ranks matter and apparently don't even wanna discuss the actual topic (since you now twice have ignored my criticism of the arguments you bring in OP). So why the are you bringing up balance here? Didn't I directly say that balance discussions is a completely differnet discussion. This is the biggest fucking strawman you can possibly make. For god sake, just read what I actually write: The opinion of one single gold leaguer matters just as much as the opinion of a single master league player when it comes to whether they find something enjoyable or not. When it comes to strategy or balance analysis, this ofc differes. Over the last 1-2 years on TL I can't remember ever being so frustrated about discussing with someone as you. Disagreeing is one thing. Misreading once or twice is another thing (I done this admittely). A bad analysis (like comparing apples to oranges) is a 3rd thing. But ever single one of your sentences contain these this. It's impossible to have any type of discussion with you. And to end the discussion: Last time I played over 30 ladder games in a season (about a year ago), I topped at an MMR that put me inside the top 700 in NA region. (http://www.rankedftw.com/team/1207119/#td=region&ty=c&tyz=0&tx=a&tl=1) (http://www.rankedftw.com/team/702025/#td=region&ty=c&tyz=0&tx=a&tl=1) (diamond rank in the end is a result of me afking one season, and only played a couple of games in the season afterwards. Never actually been below masters in a season where I played more than 60 games over the entirety of my Sc2 career. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
Also, we lost 6 pool, but we gain 12 pool as the most aggressive build. Of course if you make drastic changes, some things will be lost. But new things will be gained | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:18 Hider wrote: I think so too, and the discussion about rank seems pointless for the 12-worker discussion. This was just Ovid who brought it up as a response to my comments because I wrote that the difference between 17 and 13 supply build orders isn't very interesting (or I don't what else led him to incorrectly believe that I had to be below masters). The value of that feedback doesn't depend on whether it comes from a gold leaguer or a master+ player. In fact, I might value the feedback from a gold league more since he (perhaps) represents a larger percentage of the target group. When it comes to how the gamedynamic/microinteractions function when the gameplay is closer to be "figured out", you would obviously look at higher level of play to see whether that's satisfactory or not. But that's not really related to whether you find something interesting or not. Okay I am done responding to you. You have consistently showed that you are uncapable of comparing apples to apples and you are repediately making strawmans. Why the fuck are you bringing up balance here? Didn't I directly say that balance discussions is a completely differnet discussion. You are a bad joke. I'm 90% sure that post by Geiko was directed at you saying a lower level players feedback on the game is as relevant as a higher level player. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Geiko. Is a lower league players feedback as useful/relevant as a higher league players? I'm glad you're done responding to me, I hope this poll can clarify peoples opinions. The accounts you listed as far as I can see have 3 games of Hots total in 2015. If you noticed how I mentioned that consistent playing was also relevant? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:52 ZenithM wrote: Lower league player feedback isn't as relevant for balance only. For everything else it's always welcome (like, for how fun the game is, what features are lacking, what units seem bland, etc...), so that poll may be a bit skewed. 12 Workers doesn't affect the balance of the game? | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:52 ZenithM wrote: Lower league player feedback isn't as relevant for balance only. For everything else it's always welcome (like, for how fun the game is, what features are lacking, what units seem bland, etc...), so that poll may be a bit skewed. On that note, I'm not a high league player, but I've watched a decade of SC1 and 5 years of SC2 so I think my feedback still holds some ground. EDIT: On July 20 2015 21:54 Ovid wrote: 12 Workers doesn't affect the balance of the game? It doesn't look like he was saying it doesn't affect balance. ZenithM was just commenting on the accuracy of the poll itself. | ||
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