On July 20 2015 01:14 Ovid wrote: I vaguely remember DK talking about he wanted more distinct phases to the game, where different races can take map control with particular units and different times. This isn't going to happen if everyone is on a fast track to 200/200.
There's no such thing as a "fast track to 200". All LotV does with regards to maxed timing is shift them slightly forward. You're looking at infrastructure timings but the worker count timings are just as important. In terms of worker count, the down-time gained is closer to 1min20secs. This means that in LotV you have thing between 40 and 80 seconds faster than in HotS, there is no "exponential advantage" or "fast track to 200".
You're also making the argument that 12 worker start reduces the possibility for early aggression and forces the players down a boring fast expand macro route. This is false from a theoretical perspective as well as from a practical one.
If you've played any LotV, you'll know that there isn't less cheese and all-ins than in HotS or WoL. I know, I've been cheesing and all-ining most of my games with a >70% win rate since I have access to LotV (>250 games I believe).
The power of aggression is always more or less constant in every starcraft game, regardless of balance. All macro players will always play as greedily as possible and take anything they can get away with. That means that if cheese becomes less strong, people will start trying to get away with nexus first builds, making cheese naturally stronger.
Sure with 12 worker start you lose things like proxy 2 gate or 9 pool builds. Guess what, that means that players are more likely to start skipping that first zealot or marine, opening up the way for different aggressive builds. You'd be amazed the number of free wins I've gotten just rushing a MSC to a terran base who skipped making marines all together.
The main argument for 12 worker start is the gain in time imo. Games last on average about 7-8 real time minutes (estimate, feel free to correct me if you have concrete data), with the occasional 20 minute macro game. This means that 1-2 minutes less on down times allows you to play 10-20% more games. Seriously, it feels terrible going back to playing HotS economy after you've played enough LotV, like you're literally losing your time making workers.
Thank you for presenting your opinion with actual points. I would have to say that the majority of my "fast track to 200" is from my own experience, I've gone through my replay log and any game macro game I have had has got to a minimum of 15 minutes with the average being around 18 minutes, all of which has got me 200/200 at some point. I have around 400+ games of Lotv, the only effective cheese (has beaten me more than once not just because of a surprise factor or 4 player map scouting) has been in ZvZ and I would say that at least half of those losses I could defend if my ping wasn't hovering around 150ms or more. The games window for cheeses is much slimmer in part due to the economy change and part due to smooth macro build orders having more minerals to throw about. Quick example being if I have 3k minerals using 300 minerals on a hatchery is less of a big decision than if I had 600 minerals it's the same principle with this start because a smooth build has 3/4 more workers you have more minerals coming in so investing in certain infrastructure is less of decision, the other problem is you can use that extra income very quickly on producing army making the scouting window/reacting window much smaller.
I will post again after going through the LOTUS lotv tournament vods with how often a macrogame is achieved and how often all ins are successful or are the go to, I understand the results might be slightly skewed because the game isn't as figured out yet.
On July 20 2015 04:54 Matt` wrote: No good player is going to die to 1 base cheese in LoTV it should be totally non existent. You can easily afford to worker scout instantly because of the 12 worker start and you can react appropriately because of that. In high level games there is no early game, you might aswel give everyone 2 full saturated bases straight away.
Hum, I might be wrong but I think this guy beat a GSL champion runner-up with a one base built. Thoughts ?
Played vs this a decent amount, beat it most of the time lost a couple of times because of bad scouting, adepts are strong (probably too strong) but i dont think this is a reliable build
On July 20 2015 04:54 Matt` wrote: No good player is going to die to 1 base cheese in LoTV it should be totally non existent. You can easily afford to worker scout instantly because of the 12 worker start and you can react appropriately because of that. In high level games there is no early game, you might aswel give everyone 2 full saturated bases straight away.
Hum, I might be wrong but I think this guy beat a GSL champion runner-up with a one base built. Thoughts ?
Played vs this a decent amount, beat it most of the time lost a couple of times because of bad scouting, adepts are strong (probably too strong) but i dont think this is a reliable build
You beat it because people don't know how to execute BO. Any build is good if you practice it enough and have flawless execution. Gawlzy (forgot how to spell it) can beat anyone with a cannon rush, that dude from way back was a 6 pool expert, there was the 3 rax SCV all-in. Everyone's played someone using these builds and won. But when you're playing people who know what they are doing, it's another story.
Next week I'll have my computer again to play some LotV. I'm pretty sure I could beat you using only 1 base builds if you want to give it a shot ?
On July 20 2015 01:14 Ovid wrote: Blizzards Posts on 12 Worker Count
Starting worker count In order to generally reduce the passive time-periods in the game, we’re increasing the starting worker count from 6 workers to 12 workers. The supply granted by the Command Center, Nexus, and Hatchery are being increased to account for this.
Starting worker count You’ll also notice that the starting worker count has been increased to 12. This change is meant to reduce the downtime at the start of games, since the first few minutes of any game often grant little in the way of choices. So far, 12 feels like a good starting point for us, but we wonder if we can increase this even further without affecting early game choices too much.
Blizzards reasoning for this is to reduce the downtime because the first few minutes grant little in the way of choices, these lines will be what this post is about.
Builds lost because of 12 Workers change
Starting with Zerg the pre 12 worker build orders that have been lost due to this change are: 6 Pool, 8 Pool, 9 Pool, 9 Pool Banes, 10 Pool, 10 Pool Banes. You can also argue about losing other builds (13/12 14/14) because they now hit at a different timings and are either more defensible or less transition able. Protoss have lost: Proxy 2 Gate, Proxy Stalkers, Korean 4gate/builds using a faster gateway for all ins/pressure. Terran has lost: Proxy 2 Rax, Proxy Reaper, Proxy Maruader, 2 Rax Reaper and certain gas first play, not to mention that like I said with zerg all these races are losing some builds that create things after 12 workers just because how all the timings have shifted.
That is not little in the way of choices like posted, there's a lot of options there just because most of these aren't used in all or most BO3 (except the early pools in ZvZ) doesn't mean that you should cut all of them out of the game, oftentimes these builds lead to some of the most exciting games/controversial games.
Time saved from 12 Worker change
On to addressing the time you save with this change, I'm basing my numbers off when you can first build a army unit since this is when the first meaningful interaction could take place. The builds I'm getting the information from are the typical macro builds in Lotv showed in the LOTUS tournament I will then compare this from builds used typical macro builds used in Hots which I will get from Proleague. The timings will then be done on sc2planner just to make sure it's accurate. All the times listed are in realtime/lotv time not hots time.
Zerg LOTV 13 Overlord 17 Hatch 18 Pool. Pool Finishes at 2:00 HOTS 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 16 Pool. Pool Finishes at 2:40
Terran LOTV 14 Depot 16 Rax. Rax Finishes at 1:27 HOTS 9 Depot 12 Rax. Rax Finishes at 1:56 LOTV 14 Depot 17 CC 18 Rax. Rax Finishes at 2:00 HOTS 9 Depot 15 CC 16 Rax. Rax Finishes at 2:46
I didn't include a pool first because in Lotv there is no build that can stop a hatch first without a proper reaction from the Zerg meaning hatch first is the only build you should be doing.
Conclusion Blizzard did what they set out to do, they have reduced downtime but they have impacted other areas of the game to do so. I started off with listing the builds that are directly affected, the reason I did this is because blizzard made the assertion that "the first few minutes of any game often grant little in the way of choices" this is just blatantly false. There are choices and they impact how the macro builds are played this is clearest in ZvZ and other mirror matchups. A 9 pool is a strong build against a 15 hatch and a pool later than 15 since you can deny the hatchery and place your own faster than they can replace theirs which puts you at a advantage, but if they went for a fast gas with that hatch first they now have a window of opportunity to use their quicker speed for aggression/map control to tip the game either into their favour or to even it up. Even though a 9 pool could be said to counter a hatch first, the hatch first player still has options because the other player sacrificed earlygame droning for that play meaning they will be on close to equal drone count. With a 12 worker start everything is accelerated the time for things to happen is contracted making most forms of early aggression completely all in and non-transitional. The second problem with a 12 worker start is how the infrastructure scales with your worker count, the builds I posted above are the smooth timings (Constant worker production and placing the expansion/unit production when the money is available) the problem is you also have 3/4 workers more than the smooth timings in Hots. A single worker mines roughly 30 minerals a minute so you're gaining 90-120 more minerals a minute in your smooth timing build that you would've been doing in Hots. This naturally scales production much faster hurtling you towards the mid/lategame. I vaguely remember DK talking about he wanted more distinct phases to the game, where different races can take map control with particular units and different times. This isn't going to happen if everyone is on a fast track to 200/200. Micro is the key goal for this game, micro is most visible/done at smaller supply counts when you get to higher supply counts micro is becomes less important (since the advantage from the micro is negligible in comparison to army positioning) If you want micro why speed up the path to 200/200 and deathball play? One quick point to touch on is how 12 workers affects Overlord scouting, the first overlord comes at a reasonable time on most 2 player maps (fast enough to see if it's a marine or reaper safely) but the second one is not vs T/P meaning scouting is much harder and since this is a game of information it's a huge detriment to zerg. I'm going to wrap the conclusion up since I feel a bit rambling and incoherent, I'm better at short snappy points rather than long exposition.
Don't fix what isn't broken revert back to 6 workers.
-edit Made new poll because old one wasn't clear
Poll: 12 Worker Change
Keep at 12 (324)
45%
Back to 6 (285)
39%
Scale back to 8 (76)
10%
Scale back to 10 (42)
6%
727 total votes
Your vote: 12 Worker Change
(Vote): Back to 6 (Vote): Keep at 12 (Vote): Scale back to 10 (Vote): Scale back to 8
Ovid, there are a lot of problems with your post here. This post is pretty much crap. Maybe you can rewrite it so it does not suck and actually supports your point. The first problem is that the game clocks run at different speeds. I have made a post analyzing the changes in the timing.(particularly the appendix at the end of the post. I have found that approximately 1:50 seconds of time skipped in the early game (hots time) . You cannot compare the times directly because the clocks run at different speeds. I did mine by taking hots builds and recreating the same benchmarks into lotv. I found that the 1.38 factor of the clock comes out. So The first problem i have is that your times are not comparable because of the clock.
The second problem i have is that the builds you are using are bad. You said you watched someone do 13 overloard in lotv. You never do 13 overloard because you lose a larvae. It just shows that YOU DID NOT ACTUALLY WATCH LOTUS for this post.
The third thing is I don't really care about having 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pool in the game. In the highest level, 6 pool can win if they play extremely greedy, and 9 pool can give you and advantage sometimes, but for the most part, they early pools are not good and are countered. The frequency of using in my play in comparison with the fact that there is almost 2 minutes less early down time in lotv is worth it to me.
Fourth, Starcraft is not mostly about micro, its a combination of many factors. Micro, scouting, and multitasking, planning, etc. Most PvZ games do not even have a fight for the first 7 minutes of the game in hots. Given the frequency of this, why would i sit and watch that?
Lastly, as far as builds scaling differently. This is very true. In fact you have the minerals to expand sooner and its safer to expand in general, minerals also run out sooner, so 200/200 fights rarely occur in lotv. 200/200 fights happen in hots all the time. I appreciate that you are forced to take more map control and harass more in lotv.
Now I see that you like to cheese and i can appreciate that. There are still many ways to cheese in lotv (13/13 ling drops), cannon rushes, proxy barracks, but if you cheese and it doesn't win the game you cannot transition, in hots there was a chance to. Thus, i don't really feel bad about it. This nuance is not a problem for me.
Please support your claim with LOTV standard play, correct clock timings, and a well thought out complaint.
On July 20 2015 04:54 Matt` wrote: No good player is going to die to 1 base cheese in LoTV it should be totally non existent. You can easily afford to worker scout instantly because of the 12 worker start and you can react appropriately because of that. In high level games there is no early game, you might aswel give everyone 2 full saturated bases straight away.
Hum, I might be wrong but I think this guy beat a GSL champion runner-up with a one base built. Thoughts ?
Played vs this a decent amount, beat it most of the time lost a couple of times because of bad scouting, adepts are strong (probably too strong) but i dont think this is a reliable build
You beat it because people don't know how to execute BO. Any build is good if you practice it enough and have flawless execution. Gawlzy (forgot how to spell it) can beat anyone with a cannon rush, that dude from way back was a 6 pool expert, there was the 3 rax SCV all-in. Everyone's played someone using these builds and won. But when you're playing people who know what they are doing, it's another story.
Next week I'll have my computer again to play some LotV. I'm pretty sure I could beat you using only 1 base builds if you want to give it a shot ?
im playing vs the highest ranked people on the server, but sure i guess.
On July 20 2015 01:14 Ovid wrote: I vaguely remember DK talking about he wanted more distinct phases to the game, where different races can take map control with particular units and different times. This isn't going to happen if everyone is on a fast track to 200/200.
There's no such thing as a "fast track to 200". All LotV does with regards to maxed timing is shift them slightly forward. You're looking at infrastructure timings but the worker count timings are just as important. In terms of worker count, the down-time gained is closer to 1min20secs. This means that in LotV you have thing between 40 and 80 seconds faster than in HotS, there is no "exponential advantage" or "fast track to 200".
You're also making the argument that 12 worker start reduces the possibility for early aggression and forces the players down a boring fast expand macro route. This is false from a theoretical perspective as well as from a practical one.
If you've played any LotV, you'll know that there isn't less cheese and all-ins than in HotS or WoL. I know, I've been cheesing and all-ining most of my games with a >70% win rate since I have access to LotV (>250 games I believe).
The power of aggression is always more or less constant in every starcraft game, regardless of balance. All macro players will always play as greedily as possible and take anything they can get away with. That means that if cheese becomes less strong, people will start trying to get away with nexus first builds, making cheese naturally stronger.
Sure with 12 worker start you lose things like proxy 2 gate or 9 pool builds. Guess what, that means that players are more likely to start skipping that first zealot or marine, opening up the way for different aggressive builds. You'd be amazed the number of free wins I've gotten just rushing a MSC to a terran base who skipped making marines all together.
The main argument for 12 worker start is the gain in time imo. Games last on average about 7-8 real time minutes (estimate, feel free to correct me if you have concrete data), with the occasional 20 minute macro game. This means that 1-2 minutes less on down times allows you to play 10-20% more games. Seriously, it feels terrible going back to playing HotS economy after you've played enough LotV, like you're literally losing your time making workers.
Thank you for presenting your opinion with actual points. I would have to say that the majority of my "fast track to 200" is from my own experience, I've gone through my replay log and any game macro game I have had has got to a minimum of 15 minutes with the average being around 18 minutes, all of which has got me 200/200 at some point. I have around 400+ games of Lotv, the only effective cheese (has beaten me more than once not just because of a surprise factor or 4 player map scouting) has been in ZvZ and I would say that at least half of those losses I could defend if my ping wasn't hovering around 150ms or more. The games window for cheeses is much slimmer in part due to the economy change and part due to smooth macro build orders having more minerals to throw about. Quick example being if I have 3k minerals using 300 minerals on a hatchery is less of a big decision than if I had 600 minerals it's the same principle with this start because a smooth build has 3/4 more workers you have more minerals coming in so investing in certain infrastructure is less of decision, the other problem is you can use that extra income very quickly on producing army making the scouting window/reacting window much smaller.
I will post again after going through the LOTUS lotv tournament vods with how often a macrogame is achieved and how often all ins are successful or are the go to, I understand the results might be slightly skewed because the game isn't as figured out yet.
Results will be skewed in favor of cheesing, as is always the case with Beta tournaments.
Your argument regarding "more resources with less infrastructure" is correct up to a certain point, but that point is nowhere near "I have 3000 minerals instead of 600". I've done 4 gate builds, and you're still mineral starved very fast. To the point that taking an expansion is not an option. You mustn't have played a lot of PvP because you'd see that PvP is still expand early = you lose. You have to realize that once you've made 2 extra zealots and have basic tech up, the timings are then identical to HotS, no more mineral advantage for anyone.
Regarding game length, I'll admit that my opinion is skewed in favor of short games. For people like me who like aggressive low econ games, 12 worker start is a blessing. For macro oriented players, you might not care as much for 2 minutes less downtime in 20 minute games (although it's still 10% wasted time imo)
On July 20 2015 01:14 Ovid wrote: I vaguely remember DK talking about he wanted more distinct phases to the game, where different races can take map control with particular units and different times. This isn't going to happen if everyone is on a fast track to 200/200.
There's no such thing as a "fast track to 200". All LotV does with regards to maxed timing is shift them slightly forward. You're looking at infrastructure timings but the worker count timings are just as important. In terms of worker count, the down-time gained is closer to 1min20secs. This means that in LotV you have thing between 40 and 80 seconds faster than in HotS, there is no "exponential advantage" or "fast track to 200".
You're also making the argument that 12 worker start reduces the possibility for early aggression and forces the players down a boring fast expand macro route. This is false from a theoretical perspective as well as from a practical one.
If you've played any LotV, you'll know that there isn't less cheese and all-ins than in HotS or WoL. I know, I've been cheesing and all-ining most of my games with a >70% win rate since I have access to LotV (>250 games I believe).
The power of aggression is always more or less constant in every starcraft game, regardless of balance. All macro players will always play as greedily as possible and take anything they can get away with. That means that if cheese becomes less strong, people will start trying to get away with nexus first builds, making cheese naturally stronger.
Sure with 12 worker start you lose things like proxy 2 gate or 9 pool builds. Guess what, that means that players are more likely to start skipping that first zealot or marine, opening up the way for different aggressive builds. You'd be amazed the number of free wins I've gotten just rushing a MSC to a terran base who skipped making marines all together.
The main argument for 12 worker start is the gain in time imo. Games last on average about 7-8 real time minutes (estimate, feel free to correct me if you have concrete data), with the occasional 20 minute macro game. This means that 1-2 minutes less on down times allows you to play 10-20% more games. Seriously, it feels terrible going back to playing HotS economy after you've played enough LotV, like you're literally losing your time making workers.
Thank you for presenting your opinion with actual points. I would have to say that the majority of my "fast track to 200" is from my own experience, I've gone through my replay log and any game macro game I have had has got to a minimum of 15 minutes with the average being around 18 minutes, all of which has got me 200/200 at some point. I have around 400+ games of Lotv, the only effective cheese (has beaten me more than once not just because of a surprise factor or 4 player map scouting) has been in ZvZ and I would say that at least half of those losses I could defend if my ping wasn't hovering around 150ms or more. The games window for cheeses is much slimmer in part due to the economy change and part due to smooth macro build orders having more minerals to throw about. Quick example being if I have 3k minerals using 300 minerals on a hatchery is less of a big decision than if I had 600 minerals it's the same principle with this start because a smooth build has 3/4 more workers you have more minerals coming in so investing in certain infrastructure is less of decision, the other problem is you can use that extra income very quickly on producing army making the scouting window/reacting window much smaller.
I will post again after going through the LOTUS lotv tournament vods with how often a macrogame is achieved and how often all ins are successful or are the go to, I understand the results might be slightly skewed because the game isn't as figured out yet.
Results will be skewed in favor of cheesing, as is always the case with Beta tournaments.
Your argument regarding "more resources with less infrastructure" is correct up to a certain point, but that point is nowhere near "I have 3000 minerals instead of 600". I've done 4 gate builds, and you're still mineral starved very fast. To the point that taking an expansion is not an option. You mustn't have played a lot of PvP because you'd see that PvP is still expand early = you lose. You have to realize that once you've made 2 extra zealots and have basic tech up, the timings are then identical to HotS, no more mineral advantage for anyone.
Regarding game length, I'll admit that my opinion is skewed in favor of short games. For people like me who like aggressive low econ games, 12 worker start is a blessing. For macro oriented players, you might not care as much for 2 minutes less downtime in 20 minute games (although it's still 10% wasted time imo)
I just went through the most recent LOTUS tournaments like I said, but all the data is unusable because every single game featured early/midgame all ins. The one series I would like to bring up is
The firstgame Lambo loses, the next two he crushes the same/similar build the last game Lambo all ins.
The results are not skewed in favour of cheesing it's more in favour with macro player after the surprise factor has been taken away, all the PvP's I watched were 4 gate vs 4 gate so the data isn't really usable. The 3000 minerals instead of 600 was stated as an example, not as something that happens because of the 12 worker change I was highlighting that you do end up with more minerals roughly 120 more per minute and the fact of having more minerals makes infrastructure choices less meaningful. I love aggressive low econ games, but 12 worker start doesn't bring that at least in my experience if I am doing a macro build my economy and infrastructure ramps up so quickly that you can't call it a low economy game, and if If I don't keep pace I will be forced to all in because I will fall behind too quickly.
On July 20 2015 01:14 Ovid wrote: Blizzards Posts on 12 Worker Count
Starting worker count In order to generally reduce the passive time-periods in the game, we’re increasing the starting worker count from 6 workers to 12 workers. The supply granted by the Command Center, Nexus, and Hatchery are being increased to account for this.
Starting worker count You’ll also notice that the starting worker count has been increased to 12. This change is meant to reduce the downtime at the start of games, since the first few minutes of any game often grant little in the way of choices. So far, 12 feels like a good starting point for us, but we wonder if we can increase this even further without affecting early game choices too much.
Blizzards reasoning for this is to reduce the downtime because the first few minutes grant little in the way of choices, these lines will be what this post is about.
Builds lost because of 12 Workers change
Starting with Zerg the pre 12 worker build orders that have been lost due to this change are: 6 Pool, 8 Pool, 9 Pool, 9 Pool Banes, 10 Pool, 10 Pool Banes. You can also argue about losing other builds (13/12 14/14) because they now hit at a different timings and are either more defensible or less transition able. Protoss have lost: Proxy 2 Gate, Proxy Stalkers, Korean 4gate/builds using a faster gateway for all ins/pressure. Terran has lost: Proxy 2 Rax, Proxy Reaper, Proxy Maruader, 2 Rax Reaper and certain gas first play, not to mention that like I said with zerg all these races are losing some builds that create things after 12 workers just because how all the timings have shifted.
That is not little in the way of choices like posted, there's a lot of options there just because most of these aren't used in all or most BO3 (except the early pools in ZvZ) doesn't mean that you should cut all of them out of the game, oftentimes these builds lead to some of the most exciting games/controversial games.
Time saved from 12 Worker change
On to addressing the time you save with this change, I'm basing my numbers off when you can first build a army unit since this is when the first meaningful interaction could take place. The builds I'm getting the information from are the typical macro builds in Lotv showed in the LOTUS tournament I will then compare this from builds used typical macro builds used in Hots which I will get from Proleague. The timings will then be done on sc2planner just to make sure it's accurate. All the times listed are in realtime/lotv time not hots time.
Zerg LOTV 13 Overlord 17 Hatch 18 Pool. Pool Finishes at 2:00 HOTS 9 Overlord 15 Hatch 16 Pool. Pool Finishes at 2:40
Terran LOTV 14 Depot 16 Rax. Rax Finishes at 1:27 HOTS 9 Depot 12 Rax. Rax Finishes at 1:56 LOTV 14 Depot 17 CC 18 Rax. Rax Finishes at 2:00 HOTS 9 Depot 15 CC 16 Rax. Rax Finishes at 2:46
I didn't include a pool first because in Lotv there is no build that can stop a hatch first without a proper reaction from the Zerg meaning hatch first is the only build you should be doing.
Conclusion Blizzard did what they set out to do, they have reduced downtime but they have impacted other areas of the game to do so. I started off with listing the builds that are directly affected, the reason I did this is because blizzard made the assertion that "the first few minutes of any game often grant little in the way of choices" this is just blatantly false. There are choices and they impact how the macro builds are played this is clearest in ZvZ and other mirror matchups. A 9 pool is a strong build against a 15 hatch and a pool later than 15 since you can deny the hatchery and place your own faster than they can replace theirs which puts you at a advantage, but if they went for a fast gas with that hatch first they now have a window of opportunity to use their quicker speed for aggression/map control to tip the game either into their favour or to even it up. Even though a 9 pool could be said to counter a hatch first, the hatch first player still has options because the other player sacrificed earlygame droning for that play meaning they will be on close to equal drone count. With a 12 worker start everything is accelerated the time for things to happen is contracted making most forms of early aggression completely all in and non-transitional. The second problem with a 12 worker start is how the infrastructure scales with your worker count, the builds I posted above are the smooth timings (Constant worker production and placing the expansion/unit production when the money is available) the problem is you also have 3/4 workers more than the smooth timings in Hots. A single worker mines roughly 30 minerals a minute so you're gaining 90-120 more minerals a minute in your smooth timing build that you would've been doing in Hots. This naturally scales production much faster hurtling you towards the mid/lategame. I vaguely remember DK talking about he wanted more distinct phases to the game, where different races can take map control with particular units and different times. This isn't going to happen if everyone is on a fast track to 200/200. Micro is the key goal for this game, micro is most visible/done at smaller supply counts when you get to higher supply counts micro is becomes less important (since the advantage from the micro is negligible in comparison to army positioning) If you want micro why speed up the path to 200/200 and deathball play? One quick point to touch on is how 12 workers affects Overlord scouting, the first overlord comes at a reasonable time on most 2 player maps (fast enough to see if it's a marine or reaper safely) but the second one is not vs T/P meaning scouting is much harder and since this is a game of information it's a huge detriment to zerg. I'm going to wrap the conclusion up since I feel a bit rambling and incoherent, I'm better at short snappy points rather than long exposition.
Don't fix what isn't broken revert back to 6 workers.
-edit Made new poll because old one wasn't clear
Poll: 12 Worker Change
Keep at 12 (324)
45%
Back to 6 (285)
39%
Scale back to 8 (76)
10%
Scale back to 10 (42)
6%
727 total votes
Your vote: 12 Worker Change
(Vote): Back to 6 (Vote): Keep at 12 (Vote): Scale back to 10 (Vote): Scale back to 8
Ovid, there are a lot of problems with your post here. This post is pretty much crap. Maybe you can rewrite it so it does not suck and actually supports your point. The first problem is that the game clocks run at different speeds. I have made a post analyzing the changes in the timing.(particularly the appendix at the end of the post. I have found that approximately 1:50 seconds of time skipped in the early game (hots time) . You cannot compare the times directly because the clocks run at different speeds. I did mine by taking hots builds and recreating the same benchmarks into lotv. I found that the 1.38 factor of the clock comes out. So The first problem i have is that your times are not comparable because of the clock.
The second problem i have is that the builds you are using are bad. You said you watched someone do 13 overloard in lotv. You never do 13 overloard because you lose a larvae. It just shows that YOU DID NOT ACTUALLY WATCH LOTUS for this post.
The third thing is I don't really care about having 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pool in the game. In the highest level, 6 pool can win if they play extremely greedy, and 9 pool can give you and advantage sometimes, but for the most part, they early pools are not good and are countered. The frequency of using in my play in comparison with the fact that there is almost 2 minutes less early down time in lotv is worth it to me.
Fourth, Starcraft is not mostly about micro, its a combination of many factors. Micro, scouting, and multitasking, planning, etc. Most PvZ games do not even have a fight for the first 7 minutes of the game in hots. Given the frequency of this, why would i sit and watch that?
Lastly, as far as builds scaling differently. This is very true. In fact you have the minerals to expand sooner and its safer to expand in general, minerals also run out sooner, so 200/200 fights rarely occur in lotv. 200/200 fights happen in hots all the time. I appreciate that you are forced to take more map control and harass more in lotv.
Now I see that you like to cheese and i can appreciate that. There are still many ways to cheese in lotv (13/13 ling drops), cannon rushes, proxy barracks, but if you cheese and it doesn't win the game you cannot transition, in hots there was a chance to. Thus, i don't really feel bad about it. This nuance is not a problem for me.
Please support your claim with LOTV standard play, correct clock timings, and a well thought out complaint.
Why am I surprised that you'd disagree with me after our discussion in the other thread? Thank you for making a personal insult on my writing (which I touched upon in my post, long exposition isn't my forte) I will probably collect all the relevant points/information from this thread and make a more streamlined and better explained one at a later date.
If you read my post you would realise that I calculated my timings to Lotv/real world timing, Hots runs at 1.34x the speed of Lotv so all I did to my timings is find 72.5% of the Hots time (converted into seconds then converted back) I'm interesting in how you calculated your timings? So your first attempted point is moot, but you didn't read my original correctly otherwise you would realise I accounted for that, too keen to score points.
Your second point is also moot, 13 overlord is considered the standard, you say I don't watch the LOTUS tournaments pause the video at the 38m24s. You will see Lambo going 13 overlord.
Because you don't care about a build for a race that is not your own doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in the game your assertion that for the most part early pools are not good and are countered is blatantly false. 9 Pool vs 15 Hatch is a very common thing and leads to interesting games that often develop into macro. 6 Pool is not a common play, but if you are a game up in a BoX match and it's likely that your opponent will do a CC first then 6 pool is a valid potential build and it's what keep players honest, you're not going to see a CC first very often vs Hyvaa (when he was playing) or Shine.
Your fourth point is invalid, Blizzard have recognised that micro is an aspect of the game that is lacking and have made it a key priority for the expansion.
Your point about PvZ holds true in Lotv except it's even more common here since Protoss is much weaker at securing the third and because bases mine out much quicker tech plays or pressure have too tight a timing window. PvZ has matured a lot in Hots, it's not always 7 Gate or an equivalent most games Protoss will make it to 3/4 bases. It's partly how protoss is designed, they struggle to take map control since sitting back defending is often a stronger play.
200/200 fights occur in both, it's not helped by the 12 worker change but that's a different aspect of the game. I personally feel that 200/200 fights will be more common in Lotv when people have figured out the all ins more.
I don't like to cheese on ladder because the percentage of it working is an unknown I respect cheese in tournaments, I like to put pressure on my opponent and take control of the game I don't have as many options to do that anymore because passively sitting and getting my economy and army up to a point where I can slow/deny their expansions whilst keeping mine going is the better/stronger play, a three base cap still exists and I can quite comfortably be maxed whilst on 4 bases. Cheese/Transitional aggression are different, I would call a 9 pool a macro build since it shouldn't end the game vs a decent player but should put you in a controlling position to dictate the pace of the game.
Please support your retort with correct reading of my original post and less "it doesn't affect me therefore it doesn't matter"
Most pools before 10 are complete crap and only work if your opponent doesn't scout or is extremely greedy. I like it being at 12. It makes the game more action paced early on instead of just sitting there cycling through hotkeys on 7 drones.
I am not sure what I prefeer... that honestly is because I am still learning about LotV, but after you get used, I think the opens and builds will standarize a lot, and it will be easier for all.
Right now it feels really hard sometomes or even weird because while you are thinking "What do I do?" and you have no a good plan or macro adapted to LotV, you will find yourself suddenly behind your enemy or unprepared for lots of things.
I think 8-10 Workers could "feel" better, but I don't think the 12 Workers start is bad TBH.
So I was on the Legacy grind this weekend and after playing about 20 or so games so far... I quite like the new economy. My friend wanted to play some HotS last night so I hopped back in and going from 12 > 6 felt so bad. We literally spent the first few mins chatting about how the weekend went lol.
In the eyes of a casual player - that's what I view myself as because I sporadically play 1v1 (I much prefer team games) - I find the game a lot more engaging and the pace has definitely picked up especially in those first few minutes. I'm still trying to work out what build orders to use (I play random) and pretty much go CC, Nexus or Hatch first every game. The only match up I don't is pvp because pvp lol.
With regards to the cheeses... I actually enjoy not being cheesed as much as I got cheesed in HotS. And, admittedly I definitely find it easier to hold off and get ahead but I think, as Geiko mentioned, execution of said cheese has a lot to do with it.
Personally, I think less down time is good for 1v1 and even after the novelty wears off. As I play team games more, I'm probably more curious to see the impact on those games more than 1v1. Here's a few assumptions I think though - In terms of 3v3 and 4v4...at a diamond+ level...pretty much every game is rushed based anyway so I don't think there's much that will change there. However 2v2 should be the interesting match up and I think maps will influence the decision making there more than the 12 worker start.
What if you start with six but workers mine eight instead of five! Lol. Honestly though, how come no one talks about increased mining amount instead of harvester count?
I normally check out the map in the downtime - look for rocks, back doors, dead space for air etc. I feel this time is lost now and I feel much more pressured. As a casual player I don't want to have to study the maps beforehand. I also used to choose a strategy in the downtime.
I would love to see 9 workers given a try. I also used to enjoy the early game commentary when casters would talk about random crap before the game got interesting - it helped to personally connect with the game and casters.
Personnally, I prefer 12 workers at start. It is false to say that we only gain 30 secs or so vs hots (at 2 mins) because we now have almost twice the workers which speed up the game from this point. My average game on Lotv last 8 minutes vs 14 or more in hots and in both case I feel the game went pretty much to the same point. So same fun for half the length, I buy that.
On July 20 2015 02:16 ffadicted wrote: Did anyone REALLY enjoy a "9 pylon, 13 gate, 15 this and that" cookie cutter first 5 minutes of a game where people would just literally memorize what they're supposed to do every second of the game
you realize that the same thing will happen in lotv right?
12 worker start is complete crap. I would much rather have it reverted back to the 6 worker change. Sure I like the idea of blizzard trying new ideas and attempting to bring changes but this isn't it. It ruins the game more than improving it.
12 worker start gets rid every early game dynamics in each of the races. It pretty much forces the player to expand to the natural regardless of race. The 40 seconds that you take away from the early game voids numerous early game strategies and cheeses(and yes this matters whether or not you hate cheese, its still part of the game) And to whoever said that league doesn't matter when it comes to game design discussion, it certainly does matter. A grandmaster/master league has an overall better understanding of the game than a gold league and therefore their corresponding feedback should have more weight in terms of suggestions.
Edit: Good post OP, pretty much agree with everything you mentioned.
On July 20 2015 02:16 ffadicted wrote: Did anyone REALLY enjoy a "9 pylon, 13 gate, 15 this and that" cookie cutter first 5 minutes of a game where people would just literally memorize what they're supposed to do every second of the game
you realize that the same thing will happen in lotv right?
Except all of that will happen ~40 seconds faster and you'll get into the more intesting part of the game, which was the point of the change.
On July 20 2015 02:57 Ovid wrote: Can I politely ask for your rank in Hots/Lotv and how often you've played Hots/Lotv in the past month?
if we're going down this road.. let's go all the way. can i politely ask you how many RTS games you've been the head game designer for.
whether its C&C Gens, CoH1, RA2, BW, or WC3.. the top 5 best RTS games ever made (not including the 1 in question) were designed by really good game designers who were mediocre players at best.
You are silver league and sporadically play, I know you're all to eager to jump down my throat based on our previous discussions in this forum.
ad hominem read my comment about my play frequency completely. i was #1 in platinum 3 weeks ago and range from Silver to Diamond depending on how much i play. and i've played thousands of games over the last 5+ years since March 2010 because i was in the beta from day 1.
and u don't really deal with my point... and you've now demonstrated that you do not read posts in their entirety. you cherry pick what you want to see.
teh biggest determining factor in how good a person's game design views are ... rests on how good a game designer he is not how good a player he is.
and characterizing my simple objective comment as "eagar to jump down your throat" makes you post unnecessarily confrontational.
On July 20 2015 02:16 ffadicted wrote: Did anyone REALLY enjoy a "9 pylon, 13 gate, 15 this and that" cookie cutter first 5 minutes of a game where people would just literally memorize what they're supposed to do every second of the game
you realize that the same thing will happen in lotv right?
Except all of that will happen ~40 seconds faster and you'll get into the more intesting part of the game, which was the point of the change.
I was meaning that 12 worker wont stop cookie cutter builds; I don't really have an opinion either way on this subject.
EPT
