EPT12 Worker start is ultimately bad for the game - Page 7
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jekku
Canada1640 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 21 2015 04:46 tokinho wrote: As far as scaling all the builds so they are equal. I'm not sure if just scaling the builds by time will actually work. For example, protoss has a falloff pretty early in mineral income where as the other two races don't experience this. So if i just did a converstion time to time. using the factor 1.34/1.38 I'm not sure it will actually be accurate. I'm still doing some testing on the builds for two base muta. This is the build DRG and True do. The approximate timing is 5:30. This is still consistent with the linear relationship in timings. I'll put the build order here so you can see it. I still have a pretty good build for this as well as far as follow up, as its my most used build ZvT at the moment. So I feel its good to continue testing things. + Show Spoiler + 2 base muta lotv true, drg http://www.twitch.tv/redbullesports/v/6891715?t=299m00s 14 ovie 17 pool 0:45 17 gas 0:57 17 hatch 1:14 17 queen 1:32 19 ovie 1:39 20 ling speed 1:58 22 second queen 2:08 (start rallying workers back on gas from production) 26 third queen 2:27 30 overloard 2:38 2:50 creep tumor between main and natural 38 Gas 3:06 40 lair 3:20 43 baneling nest 3:30 43 gas 3:35 (put down creep tumor at the natural) 48 2 overloards 3:55 48 start making lings 3:50 52 spire 4:17 5:00 morph 8 banes across map and 5:20 break them 5:00 gas 5:00 2 overloards 5:20 5 workers, 2 for expanding 3 for gas 5:30 build 6 mutas then 7, then back to droning 6:10 start saving gas again 6:15 third base 6:25 centrefugal hooks 6:40 +1 muta glave attack 6:40 start making lings again (about 10 before droning) 7:10 transfer workers to third base 7:40 add 6 more mutas and queens 7:50 take 2 gas at third counter attacks will come 8:15 at the earliest 8:30 start +1 air attacks for mutas 9:00 start making a few banes 9:10 make 2 evos for ground upgrades 9:10 make overloard speed 9:30 take 4th base (start making safety banelings) Again the clocks are different between the two games, and the translation of time where so much is skipped early is the key point. I feel skipping 1:51 hots time more strongly supports your ideas than the current post does (37-40 seconds) or saying 1:21 in lotv time, which is why I took the time to write so much information. One of the best examples of changes is the timing of 2 gas roach vs ling bane allin timings. It feels like you can actually get out roaches and hold most ling bane play, so it seems possible to even skip the baneling nest, unless they gas/pool first and hit you with a 3:10 ling bane timing which is comparable to going 13gas/12pool in hots. Thanks, I will be doing my own look into builds later on and I will be remaking a post like this because I didn't make my point clearly. I also would agree that the huge amount of time skipped (if a regular thing across builds like you say) would highlight the point the games phases have contracted directly because of 12 workers. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
EDIT: a discussion is probably irrelevant at this point as i'm sure 12 worker start is set in stone, as is the eco unfortunately. | ||
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Shortizz
Singapore129 Posts
Even the sc2/bw veterans and elitist will go on and on about a long macro game being the way to play. I guess blizzard listened in a way and now we have this. Dont sweat it though, pretty sure someone will figure out new ways to cheese and infuriate soon enough. | ||
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BiiG-Fr
Canada109 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 21 2015 23:14 BiiG-Fr wrote: To me, the 12 workers start is currently the best improvement in the beta! I see a lot of people saying this line or similar but they don't add any reasons why they think it's a good/valid change. I'm planning on revamping the thread to make my point clearer and I would appreciate all the people who like the changes reasons for liking it. | ||
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BiiG-Fr
Canada109 Posts
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Atokad
United States204 Posts
I'll start with what I dislike - I don't like that the build orders of old are going to be more all-in-ish. a 6 pool? Kill or gg. Now we're looking at a 12pool slowling rush that most likely can be blocked off by p and t due to increased incomes if scouted. T and P rushes might be stronger against Z, but only time will tell (can you get i'm a Z player yet?!?!) Very strong chance 12 is too much and will just become standard that p and t will go nexus/cc first while still being able to hold off pressure. Now onto what I like: Change is a great thing in a game like this. It brings about innovation and meta changes that will forever change the way the game is played (ex. MKP marine splitting or archon toilet), which at the time of those events happening, were the greatest games to watch as it was something new and exciting that we've never seen or thought of before. Proxy rushes might be more common and those proxy buildings can probably be universally accepted as sacked buildings after initial damage/pressure is done after transitioning into the mid game due to a strong starting economy. Let's bring SC2 back to the build order/strategy game instead of an APM micro-fest. Different build orders, different timings, different unit compositions in different times of the game, all of which will make competitive SC2 more interesting to watch what people come up with. With a more rewarding beginning economy, multiple tech paths could be taken to have smoother transitions into different army compositions mid-game (counters+allins). | ||
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nick00bot
326 Posts
On July 22 2015 00:03 Atokad wrote: I can give you my thoughts on why I like the 12 worker start. Although it should be noted that i don't particularly agree that 12 is the right number, more than 6 would be nice. I'll start with what I dislike - I don't like that the build orders of old are going to be more all-in-ish. a 6 pool? Kill or gg. Now we're looking at a 12pool slowling rush that most likely can be blocked off by p and t due to increased incomes if scouted. T and P rushes might be stronger against Z, but only time will tell (can you get i'm a Z player yet?!?!) Very strong chance 12 is too much and will just become standard that p and t will go nexus/cc first while still being able to hold off pressure. Rushes against terran and protoss were already very rare tho. It's always been more common for either terran or protoss to 2 rax, 2 gate, or cannon rush zerg than it has been for zerg to early pool them. You are not looking at the situation holistically, Zergs benefit overall from reduced rushing (im a zerg too). In fact, the types of rush that are available now are better for zerg, because the faster mineral saturation in lotv allows for gas based rushes like bane and ravager rushes. In my experience, one of the biggest detriments to rushing as a zerg in HOTS was that the 4 drones required to make and saturate an extractor HUGELY affects your mineral mining early game. This is why standard play usually involves waiting AT LEAST until full 1 base saturation to take gas, if not later (spanishiwa build anyone?) Furthermore, zerg has always been a race of expenonentially growing economies, and starting off with 12 drones removes the area of the game (6-10 drones) where zergs can only make workers as fast as P and T, thus allowing a zerg to get a very fast economic advantage. | ||
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phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
On July 22 2015 00:03 Atokad wrote: Proxy rushes might be more common and those proxy buildings can probably be universally accepted as sacked buildings after initial damage/pressure is done after transitioning into the mid game due to a strong starting economy. Good point, an interesting thought. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 21 2015 23:30 Ovid wrote: I see a lot of people saying this line or similar but they don't add any reasons why they think it's a good/valid change. I'm planning on revamping the thread to make my point clearer and I would appreciate all the people who like the changes reasons for liking it. People say they like it, I don't know what else they can say. Why they would like it is obvious. The game starts, by definition of this change, faster, that's all there is to it... People think the early game is less boring, they feel like they're not wasting their time, etc... There is no grand reasons to be given or deep philosophy about it. On July 21 2015 18:25 jekku wrote: The game feels VERY different with 12 workers. Everything seems so rushed (that with all the new units added harassment potential). I'm a bit of a traditionalist, I like having 6 workers and seeing the game develop like a fine work of art. However, I think we need to give it a bit more time to see how it works. I really would prefer a scale back to maybe 10 or 8 to see how it works. What is so fascinating exactly between 6 and 12 workers that each game you like to see that developing? At this point, I know I'm just boxing workers or alt-tabbing to read mails... I'm litterally doing nothing, I don't even scout that early. | ||
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Demon_Hunter
2 Posts
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cordellb
United States19 Posts
p.s. yes you can get a DUI on a horse, it happened to my dad | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
It opens gates to new opening, extremely fast aggression and more multifront management. it is also quite good for macro players since they can get into what they like quickly. Really can't complain, I can't two rax anymore ? Not a big deal here i can double facto cyclone rush ! Liberator marine all in ! I really refreshes the game. People complaining really lack of creativity imo. | ||
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BiiG-Fr
Canada109 Posts
On July 22 2015 23:39 Demon_Hunter wrote: I really hope we will have a 6 worker start in LotV. I played like 50 games or more with the new economy model and it just feels very weird. None of my Openings is really working as before and there is also a lot less oportunity to cheese. I also dont like how quickly the game starts, because i dont have enough time to think about my opening and stuff You can not use hots opener, you have to tweak them a bit to make them fit the new 12 workers start, for example a reaper expand into facto become a reaper expand into 2nd rax + facto, or a tvz proxy 2 rax become a proxy 3 rax. And yes, believe me, there is still a lot of cheese to do, again, it is not just Hots cheese, you have to adapt them, maybe more cheese comes after 2 bases but it doesnt really matter For the last point, yes you have to think about your build on the loading screen, it takes a bit of time to be used to it but again it is not a big deal! | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17990 Posts
No longer does a guy sit in a dark room with only his desktop PC for hours on end.. those days are over ... I think Blizz did their surveys and focus groups and from that they learned PC players want shorter gaming sessions. Heroes of the Storm is oriented towards shorter play sessions. Blizzard is changing SC2 to create shorter games. In a shorter game you can't have the slow build up that goes with a 6 worker start. I like starting with substantially more workers than in HotS ... its more fun. | ||
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Aenur
Germany66 Posts
Now that part of the game is pretty much gone and I feel it is another step to make the game more dull. I would be happy if they test an 8 worker start in the Beta - with that i might become friends with. But in this state Hots is much more fun for me. | ||
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coolman123123
146 Posts
On July 23 2015 01:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: PC users are mixing up their time between their smart phone, Giant Screen TV, and tablet. No longer does a guy sit in a dark room with only his desktop PC for hours on end.. those days are over ... Speak for yourself mate. I do precisely this. Anyway, I do like 12 worker start. I can see why some might miss the downtime, but I don't at all and I think those who do will get over it in the end. | ||
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 01:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: PC users are mixing up their time between their smart phone, Giant Screen TV, and tablet. No longer does a guy sit in a dark room with only his desktop PC for hours on end.. those days are over ... I think Blizz did their surveys and focus groups and from that they learned PC players want shorter gaming sessions. Heroes of the Storm is oriented towards shorter play sessions. Blizzard is changing SC2 to create shorter games. In a shorter game you can't have the slow build up that goes with a 6 worker start. I like starting with substantially more workers than in HotS ... its more fun. That's why the average gametime in the largest game in the world (League of Legends) is averaged at 35 minutes? Speeding up the start (and therefore everything after it) speeds the game up but not the potential length of the game anyway also often people forget that their 30 minute game in Hots is 22 minutes in Lotv time. | ||
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