EPT12 Worker start is ultimately bad for the game - Page 8
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Hexe1
18 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16588 Posts
On July 23 2015 02:40 Ovid wrote: That's why the average gametime in the largest game in the world (League of Legends) is averaged at 35 minutes? Speeding up the start (and therefore everything after it) speeds the game up but not the potential length of the game anyway also often people forget that their 30 minute game in Hots is 22 minutes in Lotv time. Blizzard made the conscious decision to have Heroes of the Storm game play times substantially below LoL game time. Before doing so.. they did their homework. Morhaime didn't just wake up one day and say "hey .. lets make a 15 minute MOBA guys". Blizzard has tonnes of data based on WoW, D3, SC2 , Hearthstone etc. They did a study or 2 or more on PC players outside their games. Blizzard did some kind of analysis of their player base and general PC players on the lines of this... did some predictive analysis of the future...etc. http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~swc/pub/wow_player_game_hours.html using info like this Blizzard decided to have Heroes of the Storm have much shorter play sessions than LoL. and i think they're doing the same thing with SC2. Don't expect Blizzard to cater to the very specialized mature LoL player base... they didn't even do so with Heroes so they damn sure won't let LoL players behaviour impact decision making for WoW, D3, SC2 or Hearthstone. "largest game In the world" is really vague ATVI is here to make money so this is how they measure games... in terms of money. http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/jagged85/lists/highest-grossing-games-of-all-time-inflation-adjus/89416/ LoL is #27. .which is not bad.. ( nothing i'd base a decision about game length on). Blizzard probably did get a lot of data from the game that is #4 on that list though. I think Blizzard is aiming for shorter game times... we'll see whether or not they succeed. with a 12 worker start its possible to have a really fun , fast, fluid and action packed 6 minute game of SC2 that doesn't feel like it was a cheese-fest... a lot can happen in 6 minutes with a 12 worker start. Previously, a really fun 6 minute RTS game was really only possible with C&C type games. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:29 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Blizzard made the conscious decision to have Heroes of the Storm game play times substantially below LoL game time. Before doing so.. they did their homework. Morhaime didn't just wake up one day and say "hey .. lets make a 15 minute MOBA guys". Blizzard has tonnes of data based on WoW, D3, SC2 , Hearthstone etc. They did a study or 2 or more on PC players outside their games. Blizzard did some kind of analysis of their player base and general PC players on the lines of this... did some predictive analysis of the future...etc. http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~swc/pub/wow_player_game_hours.html using info like this Blizzard decided to have Heroes of the Storm have much shorter play sessions than LoL. and i think they're doing the same thing with SC2. Don't expect Blizzard to cater to the very specialized mature LoL player base... they didn't even do so with Heroes so they damn sure won't let LoL players behaviour impact decision making for WoW, D3, SC2 or Hearthstone. "largest game In the world" is really vague ATVI is here to make money so this is how they measure games... in terms of money. http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/jagged85/lists/highest-grossing-games-of-all-time-inflation-adjus/89416/ LoL is #27. .which is not bad.. ( nothing i'd base a decision about game length on). Blizzard probably did get a lot of data from the game that is #4 on that list though. I think Blizzard is aiming for shorter game times... we'll see whether or not they succeed. The point I am/was making is that gametime has nothing to do with how many people play. Design choices shouldn't be made around a perceived increase in playerbase because of a shorter gametime. Over this weekend I will be rewriting/gathering all the negative aspects and counter arguments for the 12 workers, so anyone with any positive reasons (that haven't been said) for the 12 worker change I'm all ears. edit- currently it is a cheese fest, now that's normal for betas/early stages of the games so it's too early to tell if it will continue, but I think it will but that point will be made in greater detail in the rewrite. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16588 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:41 Ovid wrote:Design choices shouldn't be made around a perceived increase in playerbase because of a shorter gametime. that is what Blizzard did with Heroes of the Storm.... they decided to go with a shorter game by design... MOBA's are not my thing though. Until the 12 worker start i was unable to really have an action packed. multi-battle. multi-turning point game with SC2 that was less than 7 minutes long. It was possible though with previous C&C games like RA2, Generals, Kane's Wrath, and RA3. And, if i have more time.. i just hit "find match" and play again. With guys like Morten, Black, and Browder on the SC2 RTS team its no surprise they're taking a hard turn towards C&C style of play. The Blizzard manifesto is to make games they themselves like to play. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:47 JimmyJRaynor wrote: that is what Blizzard did with Heroes of the Storm.... they decided to go with a shorter game by design... MOBA's are not my thing though. Until the 12 worker start i was unable to really have an action packed. multi-battle. multi-turning point game with SC2 that was less than 7 minutes long. It was possible though with previous C&C games like RA2, Generals, Kane's Wrath, and RA3. And, if i have more time.. i just hit "find match" and play again. With guys like Morten, Black, and Browder on the SC2 RTS team its no surprise they're taking a hard turn towards C&C style of play. The Blizzard manifesto is to make games they themselves like to play. I am yet to experience a equal skilled game that went back and forth that was less than 7 minutes long in LOTV, I've found that comebacks are much harder since denying expansions and starving you out quickly is a real thing. I think your first base drys up at around 7 mins IIRC. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
 especially the money list for games, that was quite interesting | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16588 Posts
On July 23 2015 05:01 Ovid wrote: I am yet to experience a equal skilled game that went back and forth that was less than 7 minutes long in LOTV, I've found that comebacks are much harder since denying expansions and starving you out quickly is a real thing. I think your first base drys up at around 7 mins IIRC. also, let us just imagine that the ultimate competitive experience were to be in video game whose average game length was 2.5 hours. a lot less people would play... even though this 2.5 hour game is a more thorough test of their skill and strategy... people have other things to do besides play video games. the longer the average game the more people you exclude from being able to partake in the game. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 05:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: a 6 minute game of RA3 or Kane's Wrath has a lot more fun and intense action packed into it than any 6 minute game of SC2:HotS or SC2:WoL.. the 12 worker start helps improve the short game experience for SC2. also, let us just imagine that the ultimate competitive experience were to be in video game whose average game length was 2.5 hours. a lot less people would play... even though this 2.5 hour game is a more thorough test of their skill and strategy... people have other things to do besides play video games. the longer the average game the more people you exclude from being able to partake in the game. The average game time in the GSL is 18.6 minutes according to this source http://vizual-statistix.tumblr.com/post/94161477131/i-recently-watched-several-of-the-international-4 I also think that his stats are wrong and on the higher end, I think the guy didn't actually convert the ingame time to realtime. SC2 has the shortest gametime of all the competitive games there's no need to make it shorter the game already appeals to the market of time strapped competitive players. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
on the other hand, they are more likely to know how to block cheese/aggro... i am very happy for the reduced downtime in pro matches and the faster pace... hyyyyyype | ||
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Atokad
United States204 Posts
On July 23 2015 01:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote: LoL is #27. .which is not bad.. ( nothing i'd base a decision about game length on). Blizzard probably did get a lot of data from the game that is #4 on that list though. I don't want to jump into this argument, but it should be noted LoL has been popular for like 3 years? as opposed to the other games on this list which have had much longer windows to catch cash. Just by the news/streams it's pretty easy to see LoL is by far the leader in eSports currently. Although SC2 might have made eSports what it is today, LoL is driving the bus now. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16588 Posts
i'd rather play 5 games in 1 hour than 3 games in 1 hour. Its more fun. i find LotV more fun than HotS and the 12 worker start is part of the reason why. If the vast majority of the community wanted Blizzard to go back to the 6 workers start they would've done so. But, that's not what is happening... and your poll reflects this as well. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 05:54 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Blizzard went with shorter game times for Heroes and if they wish to do so for SC2 .... i say.. let em. i'd rather play 5 games in 1 hour than 3 games in 1 hour. Its more fun. i find LotV more fun than HotS and the 12 worker start is part of the reason why. If the vast majority of the community wanted Blizzard to go back to the 6 workers start they would've done so. But, that's not what is happening... and your poll reflects this as well. Yes, but I think that is in part due to my post not clearly representing the downsides, I would also say a lot of people who don't have Lotv have voted. Also if you include the people who want it scaled back as people who are not happy with 12 workers then there's actually more people who don't like it than who do. Secondly, there's downtime in all the games shortening the games and making you able to play more games actually could increase the amount of downtime in your gaming time. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
sorry what? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16588 Posts
Plus, you can hit the "play again" button against the guy you just played to lower downtime. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 06:03 mishimaBeef wrote: "Secondly, there's downtime in all the games shortening the games and making you able to play more games actually could increase the amount of downtime in your gaming time." sorry what? It was badly worded, let me rephrase. Lets say in HOTS a average game takes 10 minutes with 2 minutes of downtime, now lets say the average LOTV game takes 5 minutes with 1 minute of downtime. Technically the amount of downtime in your playing time is the same. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:29 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Blizzard made the conscious decision to have Heroes of the Storm game play times substantially below LoL game time. Before doing so.. they did their homework. Morhaime didn't just wake up one day and say "hey .. lets make a 15 minute MOBA guys". Blizzard has tonnes of data based on WoW, D3, SC2 , Hearthstone etc. They did a study or 2 or more on PC players outside their games. Blizzard did some kind of analysis of their player base and general PC players on the lines of this... did some predictive analysis of the future...etc. http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~swc/pub/wow_player_game_hours.html using info like this Blizzard decided to have Heroes of the Storm have much shorter play sessions than LoL. and i think they're doing the same thing with SC2. Don't expect Blizzard to cater to the very specialized mature LoL player base... they didn't even do so with Heroes so they damn sure won't let LoL players behaviour impact decision making for WoW, D3, SC2 or Hearthstone. "largest game In the world" is really vague ATVI is here to make money so this is how they measure games... in terms of money. http://www.giantbomb.com/profile/jagged85/lists/highest-grossing-games-of-all-time-inflation-adjus/89416/ LoL is #27. .which is not bad.. ( nothing i'd base a decision about game length on). Blizzard probably did get a lot of data from the game that is #4 on that list though. I think Blizzard is aiming for shorter game times... we'll see whether or not they succeed. with a 12 worker start its possible to have a really fun , fast, fluid and action packed 6 minute game of SC2 that doesn't feel like it was a cheese-fest... a lot can happen in 6 minutes with a 12 worker start. Previously, a really fun 6 minute RTS game was really only possible with C&C type games. To be fair, LoL is a free game haha. And quite a bit younger than a lot of those games on the list. In all of my experience so far with this beta and the HotS beta, I think I've come to the conclusion that Blizzard wants to make a fast-paced game that is very different from Brood War, and that's fine. It's not what I want, but that doesn't mean it's not a viable idea. Still, I think they could do a lot better in other areas like community feedback (*definitely making progress here though), improved UI, more intuitive gameplay (while still retaining useful details like the fact that you can hold position -_-), and microtransactions AKA actually adding to and updating the game consistently. I don't agree with the 12 worker start because it excludes a lot of early game interaction and takes out a considerable chunk of decisions, but it is fine IF there is an interesting and varied mid game which opens up as much choices and interactions as they are cutting out with the faster economy. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On July 20 2015 01:14 Ovid wrote: Time saved from 12 Worker change You list the builds lost. You did not list the builds gained. I like to play some Lotv versus one of my colleagues (who recently beat me 3-2 in a series) and really like to have the fast game start. It just feels right to have more to do than only build workers and an overlord every now and then. I still have to build a lot of drones, but I am also able to build other stuff. The game is insanely quick (or at least it feels that way.) While it is stressful, it is also good. Cutting some traditional builds forces me to rethink my very game plans and even unit roles. It feels really good to have the quick action early on. | ||
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
On July 23 2015 06:13 [F_]aths wrote: You list the builds lost. You did not list the builds gained. I like to play some Lotv versus one of my colleagues (who recently beat me 3-2 in a series) and really like to have the fast game start. It just feels right to have more to do than only build workers and an overlord every now and then. I still have to build a lot of drones, but I am also able to build other stuff. The game is insanely quick (or at least it feels that way.) While it is stressful, it is also good. Cutting some traditional builds forces me to rethink my very game plans and even unit roles. It feels really good to have the quick action early on. It's difficult to list builds gained because knowing what works/doesn't at a high level and years down the line is pretty impossible. It's safe to say that it's a net loss though but more on that in the rethread. You still have downtime, you're not saving a massive amount of time and the amount of meaningful decisions you can make in the early-midgame is diminished because of how the infrastructure ramps up in accordance to your workers. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 23 2015 05:52 Atokad wrote: I don't want to jump into this argument, but it should be noted LoL has been popular for like 3 years? as opposed to the other games on this list which have had much longer windows to catch cash. Just by the news/streams it's pretty easy to see LoL is by far the leader in eSports currently. Although SC2 might have made eSports what it is today, LoL is driving the bus now. Halo 2, Unreal, Q3 Arena, CoD4, and BW made ESPORTS what it is today. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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