EPT[Idea] GEM: New LotV economy model - Page 26
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
- It feels pressuring when you don't have the occasion to expand fast enough (I'm guessing that's like LotV, but I can't play LotV so I can't tell  ), which is good (imho).- there is a display bug with worker counts on the main buildings. I thought I had fixed it, but nope. - Mules mine the low minerals normally. This obviously has to be fixed :D. I tried not to abuse it and throw the mules on high yield minerals. - imo in the 4 games that I've been a part of/witnessed, there wasn't any occasion for either player where they were better off mining the low yield minerals. Of course, if they didn't expand fast enough they could still mine from those bases, that's by design. But the games didn't drag out so long that you had to come back to your remaining dark minerals in your main base for example. - the transition from high economy to low economy is really not brutal at all. Pretty smooth, that's a good point! | ||
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Penev
28535 Posts
- the transition from high economy to low economy is really not brutal at all. Pretty smooth, that's a good point! Like you said; A less cut throat version of LotV eco then maybe | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
Gold bases still have 6 patches, but starting minerals 2000. When minerals reach, 1500, they turn blue, then black when they reach 600. Does that sound good ? | ||
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Penev
28535 Posts
On July 08 2015 06:12 ZenithM wrote: I believe I did not modify the gold minerals, so atm they're pretty OP xD. Geiko probably has a plan for that (and MULEs). Prob 7-4? I'd rather have them removed from the game tbh | ||
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LDaVinci
France130 Posts
I a way, gold bases should be rethought, just slightly. If you have less income, maybe the gold could be a 6 income without low rate. Guess it would be enough | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Edit: Oh yeah Geiko, your idea sounds fine. Edit2: Otherwise I'm with Penev, I don't like gold mines generally :D. | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
-ZennithM is a boss and macroed his way to a 3-0 victory. -GEM mod works as intended apart from minor bugs (MULES, x/16 worker bug) -Black minerals are very spectator friendly. -Minerals don't turn black at the same time. This is good and bad. Bad because it can probably get frustrating to try and micro your workers to good patches. Good because it smoothens the income fall off. -it seems less frustrating to play than lotv. I don't know if it's the psychological effect of still having 8 patches even though they are low rather than 4 but you do feel less pressured to expand. Also less unforgiving if you lose a base. -3 base turtle don't seem very feasible with the reduced economy. The player who had the base advantage always won. Not sure if because of difference in level or because of the mod, but expanding at a good rate is still the way to go. -seems to play like Lotv for the most part in the early to mid game. I think it's a pretty cool start. Some high level games would surely bring more insight though. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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LDaVinci
France130 Posts
Minerals don't turn black at the same time. This is good and bad. Bad because it can probably get frustrating to try and micro your workers to good patches. Good because it smoothens the income fall off. To me, and I showed pretty clearly I was not the best tonight, the fact that the patches turn black one at a time is not a problem. And definitely not a problem of micro. There is the same problem (but only later) in HOTS when one mineral patch is over. And of course, in lotv... plus the fact that they don't turn black at the same time is good, cause you won't have such drastic change in income while transferring your drones. If they are caught, then they don't die all at once. To me, there is only good things here | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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LDaVinci
France130 Posts
On July 08 2015 06:27 ZenithM wrote: Yeah I don't think 3 base turtle is viable with GEM. It lasts longer than LotV at least, but not long enough. I'm personally more than happy with that, but I know people generally think removing this type of play removes diversity. It's true, but at anything less than ultra top level of play, I find turtle strategies very boring, often because it seems difficult to balance: either it seems unfeasible, or it seems super lame to execute. If we look at Mlord vs Firecake game on Coda (both games actually), we see that the 3 bases income allow the Terran for a very boring come back, increasing the number of raven. And the zerg can do almost nothing about it. Not saying it's easy, but the fact that it's possible that way feels good. Here however, even though you'll have the same overall mineral, the income is low enough so it will slow this down. It would then be harder for the Terran to do it. Edit : As for the micro, I have t say I disagree. When a patch disappear, the worker income is really reduced, more than here I guess. So when you finish one patch, if you wanna stay on max income, you need to micro your workers. It felt the same to me. Maybe even better here | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
Yeah GEM nerfs 3 base turtle play for sure, but not as hard as LotV (more minerals in total and slightly higher income). I like it like that honestly. Turtles are pretty boring. edit: What zennith meant was that in LotV, worker micro is straightforward. Remove workers from your base until you reach either 2x patches left or 3x patches left, your choice. In GEM the micro is more tedious, you have to guide individual workers to good patches. It definitely rewards taking the time to babysit your workers, but it's not the most fun use of apm. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On July 08 2015 06:33 LDaVinci wrote: If we look at Mlord vs Firecake game on Coda (both games actually), we see that the 3 bases income allow the Terran for a very boring come back, increasing the number of raven. And the zerg can do almost nothing about it. Not saying it's easy, but the fact that it's possible that way feels good. Here however, even though you'll have the same overall mineral, the income is low enough so it will slow this down. It would then be harder for the Terran to do it. Edit : As for the micro, I have t say I disagree. When a patch disappear, the worker income is really reduced, more than here I guess. So when you finish one patch, if you wanna stay on max income, you need to micro your workers. It felt the same to me. Maybe even better here Yes, you're right. But the only thing you have to do in LotV is leave 8 guys when the minerals start to dry out. From there on it scales pretty well and it's efficient, for a low amount of APM. In GEM I'm not exactly sure what's the best way to go about it. I saw BlackLilium leave 8 guys in his main so that it doesn't dry out so fast. It seems like a good idea if you expand really fast. Obviously all of this could be anticipated, the only thing I didn't think about is that there can really be individual mineral patches that mine out really late compared to others, due to the fact that it's really hard to conserve 16 workers on mineral patches at all times (think: zerg using drones to build stuff, terran workers currently building in main base, random worker losses to harass...) | ||
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Geiko
France2012 Posts
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Penev
28535 Posts
Maybe there's a way to change the worker AI so they always favor high patches with <2 workers on them. But I'm still not sold on the idea. If people want to spend some apm microing their workers, they can get a slight econ boost, it's probably good as it is. I agree, I'd keep things as simple as possible. And on that note, if there have to be gold bases I'd just make them 7-3. Edit: Has Blizzard done anything with gold bases in LotV btw? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On June 29 2015 17:27 BlackLilium wrote: Finally, I would argue that rules changing over time are harder to grasp that rules which are persistant and constant in time. Your approach is the former: through the first X minutes workers mine at full efficiency, and then it drops. It's a situation that changes in time. I think I agree with the general principle, and I must say, in this regard, LotV really lacks visual feedback for noobs. Is there anywhere indicated that half the starting minerals contain less? Clicking to check if they have different amounts at the start of the game seems really obscure. With GEM, I like that there is direct visual feedback for a mineral patch that is less efficient at some point. It's not explicit in-game what the dark skin means, but it's pretty intuitive, and helpful, akin to minerals skins which change with the amount in the base game (which btw, are bugged in the current version of the MOD, I know :D). HMH would probably also benefit from some type of visual feedback. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On July 08 2015 07:07 ZenithM wrote: I remember a good point brought up by BlackLilium: I think I agree with the general principle, but I must say, LotV really lacks visual feedback for noobs. Is there anywhere indicated that half the starting minerals contain less? Clicking to check if they have different amounts at the start of the game seems really obscure. With GEM, I like that there is direct visual feedback for a mineral patch that is less efficient at some point. It's not explicit in-game what the dark skin means, but it's pretty intuitive, and helpful, akin to minerals skins which change with the amount in the base game (which btw, are bugged in the current version of the MOD, I know :D). HMH would probably also benefit from some type of visual feedback. LotV lacks visual feedback because they don't actually care for the Casual. They just use him as an excuse for for implementing or not implementing game design ideas. | ||
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