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On May 13 2015 02:27 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:15 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases. I'd actually like to see this. I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point. HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common. I've always wished they'd have balanced Protoss around warp-in Storms, since it was in my opinion the most exciting and unique style of Protoss play, but I have no idea about the difficulties involved in doing so. Ultimately I have to trust that game designers know how to do their jobs.
Because it would be like hellbat drops, all the game would be about negating storm drops.
It maybe exciting for protoss players but you have to remember you are playing against someone, the game has to be fun for both attacker and defender.
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On May 13 2015 02:15 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases. I'd actually like to see this. I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point. HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
This actually got me thinking, Blizzard could make it so instead of Warp Gate units having a set Warp-in time of 5 seconds and have a cooldown, which is their (build time,) they could make it so all Warp Gate units have the same cooldown, but different Warp-in times.
So instead of:
Cooldown:
Zealot: 28
Adept: 28 (I think)
Sentry: 32
Stalker: 32
High Templar: 45
Dark Templar: 45
Warp in time: 5
They could make it:
Cooldown:
30
Warp in time:
Zealot: 3
Adept: 3
Sentry: 7
Stalker: 7
High Templar: 13
Dark Templar: 13
This way the units scale more in how immediate they can be of service and you could reintroduce stuff like Khaydarin Amulet, as a 13 second Warp in time would make it not broken.
Just a thought.
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On May 13 2015 02:36 Lexender wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 13 2015 02:27 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:15 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases. I'd actually like to see this. I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point. HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common. I've always wished they'd have balanced Protoss around warp-in Storms, since it was in my opinion the most exciting and unique style of Protoss play, but I have no idea about the difficulties involved in doing so. Ultimately I have to trust that game designers know how to do their jobs. Because it would be like hellbat drops, all the game would be about negating storm drops. It maybe exciting for protoss players but you have to remember you are playing against someone, the game has to be fun for both attacker and defender.
I totally agree with this, and I just want to add that having my probes blown up by widow mines is the most fun I have had in HotS.
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I hate LOTV so much.
Blizzards approach just makes me so sad.
Removing stasis ward manual cast is so moronic.
What it does is punish slopiness but make it 100% useless vs someone who knows the spell exists, since you can just trigger it with a ling.
Mothershit core was a bandaid from the start so why are they adding more bandaids to it.
If they want to avoid deathball play (I don't even mind deathball play in itself) then why make a special unit that's one per customer and is crucial to your race.
I hate how they keep trying to "fill a hole" for terrans, just because something is hard to deal with for one race doesn't make it bad design that should be changed or anything.
If they want SC2 to be a fancy pants game with lots of expansions and shit, then the simplest and most obvious first step HAS to be to nerf harrassment options.
You can take a lot of bases fast when you need 10 turrets to keep each of them safe from mutas, you can't take bases fast when medivacs can fly past turrets and not give a shit, you can't take bases fast when 20 zealots can just appear anywhere on the map.
Bleh don't even have the motivation to write a big ass rant.
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On May 13 2015 03:12 HellHound wrote:
If they want SC2 to be a fancy pants game with lots of expansions and shit, then the simplest and most obvious first step HAS to be to nerf harrassment options.
You can take a lot of bases fast when you need 10 turrets to keep each of them safe from mutas, you can't take bases fast when medivacs can fly past turrets and not give a shit, you can't take bases fast when 20 zealots can just appear anywhere on the map.
Bleh don't even have the motivation to write a big ass rant.
I think they don't even want that. They just use those phrases for pin-up measures. What they want is players quickly getting an army, getting into battle, fighting for a 3rd or 4th base, and then the game should be over in an average of 10mins. 10mins is lategame. 15mins is an epic battle. More than 15 is stale. They rather want many different short games than one game with a longterm strategy.
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On May 13 2015 00:17 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 22:31 DoubleReed wrote:On May 12 2015 15:33 SC2John wrote:On May 12 2015 11:50 Parcelleus wrote:Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best. Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting. Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall. On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine. On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers. That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy. For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about. For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations. But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good. If zealots cant outrun stimmed bio and lings (which they cant with the buff) you can buff them all you want but you won't be able to retreat with them.
I'd rather it was just double the passive speed and immune to concussive with the upgrade. It would make them a microable unit vs now where i suppose you can manually charge/hold position vs terran trying to bait the charge and stutter step
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On May 13 2015 03:59 90ti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 00:17 Teoita wrote:On May 12 2015 22:31 DoubleReed wrote:On May 12 2015 15:33 SC2John wrote:On May 12 2015 11:50 Parcelleus wrote:Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best. Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting. Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall. On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine. On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers. That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy. For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about. For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations. But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good. If zealots cant outrun stimmed bio and lings (which they cant with the buff) you can buff them all you want but you won't be able to retreat with them. I'd rather it was just double the passive speed and immune to concussive with the upgrade. It would make them a microable unit vs now where i suppose you can manually charge/hold position vs terran trying to bait the charge and stutter step
This. Exactly that.
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
The problema is a bout concussive shells and its use. Charge and Concussive Shells are meant to be "reciprocal" counters, but the true fact is that Concussive shells > Charge any day. Bio can stutterstep for days.
So if you buff Zealots vs Bio, you have to give bio something in exchange. THat's the problematic.
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NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge).
Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases.
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I like some of the changes.
For the MSC change, I think that it is one of Blizzard's best ideas for SC2 to date. Recall has been massively underused for a long time and now it might see more use. I just wish that they nerf photon overcharge a little or put it on the nexus so Protoss can use if they wanna use chrono or that.
This mothership speed boost is one of the worst changes Blizzard has made since they removed vortex. It is already too strong. The mothership already makes Protoss incredibly imba as is. Why break the game with this buff? I say bring back Vortex so we can have more games like Mvp vs Squirtle Game 6.
Again about breaking the game, the Oracle Stasis forced auto cast will make Protoss essentially win the game as soon as they get out an oracle.
Oh look, first Blizzard wanted to get rid of Infestor-Broodlord and now they are trying to revive it. Broodlords were already imbalanced as all hell...I mean what units spawns free and unlimited free units? They should make it like the new swarm host.
Zealots are now faster? LOL Blizzard, what are you thinking? Do you want them to be more broken than they already are? They easily rip apart marines and Zerglings as is. Now they can walk faster which eliminates micro potential from the other tier 1 units.
Okay, why is Blizzard nerfing the Lurker? This is an unacceptable change? They were already pretty damn bad before, why make them into something unplayable?
Wow another unit for the Immortal to kill ~.~
Every single change on this patch makes no sense except for the mothership core one.
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On May 13 2015 04:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge). Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases.
its really due to the way blizz designed terran vs the other races. I think its a fix that they've needed for some time, and I prefer a consistent speed for lots vs the a move charge that exists now. I see it as an equivalent change, so I don't believe bio needs a buff to compensate.
While we've on the topic of micro possibilities, a manually activated charge for ultras would be nice so they're not so clunky to use and can actually close in. Blizz of course, decided to nerf the maurauder instead.
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On May 13 2015 04:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge). Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases.
It's excellent for establishing a punishment in that it nearly guarantees unit loss if a weaker army is caught out in a bad position by a superior bio force. There is micro involved with targeting Marauders on multiple different enemy units, in order to slow as many as possible and guarantee their death. Or you could be just sprinting one forward with some Marines to destroy a single enemy unit. It's silly to claim it doesn't add anything positive to the game, though it does indeed remove micro opportunities from the opponent.
That having been said, I believe it was originally unveiled in WoL alpha as intended to slow down approaching units, rather than prevent units from retreating. In general, a redesign that makes it easier to break off engagements without losing everything is probably going to be good for the game. A role that would better fit their original intention for the effect would be an upgrade that gives the concussion effect to Siege Tank shots, and allow its effects to target multiple units via splash. Mech has an issue with how easily units close the distance with tank lines, and this would greatly help against Chargelots, as well as Roaches. It would help a little bit against Archons and Immortals too, as well as Hydras, but those are less of the issue here. And of course, if the effect maintained its lack of effect on massive targets, then Archons wouldn't be affected at all.
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gm 6x Terran player here chiming in on the economy. I'm at a loss for all the distaste from the community with blizzards approach to the economy. I've seen the arguments, but I can't agree with them. I think the 100/60% mineral is correct at the moment. I see the argument, (punished for not expanding) but I also believe that this sets a paradigm that forces a player to take a disadvantage when they opt for aggressive strategies, or risky play.
As players expand more, vulnerabilities open up in their base(s) as they try to spread them selves thin. Players have to have a greater understanding of what can happen at any given time and adapt to mitigate damage as more information from the opponent comes in ( scouting ). This is a good thing, the better players are able to adapt better than the lesser, and games will come to a conclusion much quicker when the skill gap is larger.
As a result of the economy change, strategies will become more distinguished in how they relate to a players economy. Aggressive strategies will feel the pain of opting for the extra units/tech to hurt their opponents by not having as many mineral fields in the coming minutes. A successful hold from a defensive player will have a stronger advantage ( in comparison to hots/wings) when they hold.
just my 2cents
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On May 13 2015 02:37 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2015 02:15 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases. I'd actually like to see this. I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point. HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common. + Show Spoiler +This actually got me thinking, Blizzard could make it so instead of Warp Gate units having a set Warp-in time of 5 seconds and have a cooldown, which is their (build time,) they could make it so all Warp Gate units have the same cooldown, but different Warp-in times.
So instead of:
Cooldown:
Zealot: 28
Adept: 28 (I think)
Sentry: 32
Stalker: 32
High Templar: 45
Dark Templar: 45
Warp in time: 5
They could make it:
Cooldown:
30
Warp in time:
Zealot: 3
Adept: 3
Sentry: 7
Stalker: 7
High Templar: 13
Dark Templar: 13
This way the units scale more in how immediate they can be of service and you could reintroduce stuff like Khaydarin Amulet, as a 13 second Warp in time would make it not broken.
Just a thought.
I like part of this. I still think they need to have gateway exclusive units but having a flat cooldown while having the warp-in period vary with each unit is interesting. Perhaps that could be a softer alternative to having them take additional damage when warping in.
I think only Zealots, Stalkers, DTs, and Adepts should be allowed to be warped in with these warp-in times:
Zealots: 2 sec
Adept: 5 sec
DT: 5 sec
Stalker: 10 sec
Of those 4 I think stalkers are the deadliest in terms of potential all-ins what with the range, speed, and especially blink. Therefore, they deserve the longest warp-in time. Zealots in contrast are a bit more manageable and could be made better for warp-in defense and harassment with warp prisms.
HT even with a 13s warp-in would probably still be too deadly with the amulet. It'd still be easy to spread them out on the map before engagements and flank with storm imo.
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There is micro involved with targeting Marauders on multiple different enemy units, in order to slow as many as possible and guarantee their death.
Noone does that with the exception of very rare cases where you have one very guaranteed kill that is very close and instead opt to target a unit that is further away with the Mauruader. But that's a rare case.
And even then, it's not an interesting form of micro. IMO real micro is related to movement of units and abilities work great when they have an impact on how you move your units but when its just random spam clicks, it's absolute pointless. Concussive removes real micro from the game as it makes it less rewarded for the enemy to move untis around.
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On May 13 2015 04:49 swag_bro wrote:
I like some of the changes.
For the MSC change, I think that it is one of Blizzard's best ideas for SC2 to date. Recall has been massively underused for a long time and now it might see more use. I just wish that they nerf photon overcharge a little or put it on the nexus so Protoss can use if they wanna use chrono or that.
This mothership speed boost is one of the worst changes Blizzard has made since they removed vortex. It is already too strong. The mothership already makes Protoss incredibly imba as is. Why break the game with this buff? I say bring back Vortex so we can have more games like Mvp vs Squirtle Game 6.
Again about breaking the game, the Oracle Stasis forced auto cast will make Protoss essentially win the game as soon as they get out an oracle.
Oh look, first Blizzard wanted to get rid of Infestor-Broodlord and now they are trying to revive it. Broodlords were already imbalanced as all hell...I mean what units spawns free and unlimited free units? They should make it like the new swarm host.
Zealots are now faster? LOL Blizzard, what are you thinking? Do you want them to be more broken than they already are? They easily rip apart marines and Zerglings as is. Now they can walk faster which eliminates micro potential from the other tier 1 units.
Okay, why is Blizzard nerfing the Lurker? This is an unacceptable change? They were already pretty damn bad before, why make them into something unplayable?
Wow another unit for the Immortal to kill ~.~
Every single change on this patch makes no sense except for the mothership core one.
I lol'd.
User was warned for this post
Edit: My apologies, I assumed it was satirical 
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Get rid of concussive shells and give Protoss something that can deal with Zerglings. I think this opens up all sorts of new map types, unit types and interactions etc.
Zergling speed and Concussive shells are the reason Protoss can't be out on the map early in the same way the other races can. They limit our ability to retreat.
You can adjust stats to rebalance afterwards.
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On May 13 2015 06:41 DinoMight wrote:
Get rid of concussive shells and give Protoss something that can deal with Zerglings. I think this opens up all sorts of new map types, unit types and interactions etc.
Zergling speed and Concussive shells are the reason Protoss can't be out on the map early in the same way the other races can. They limit our ability to retreat.
You can adjust stats to rebalance afterwards.
I think giving back the sentry the single point of damage might give protoss what it needs to be able to combat speedlings.
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Just unimpressed overall. Serious lack of imagination coming from the team so far 
Also, their new air unit sounds like a Viking. Why not just make the Viking better in ground mode? There have been community suggestions already for this, even just speeding up transformation.
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For the automated tournaments just disable mineral collection after X amount of time with a hard cut-off y minutes later. Forces players into fighting or else and doesn't punish eco advantages nearly as much.
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Its sad that all the game and terran and zergs, have to be sacrificed for the reason of a bad designed race like Protoss since WoL, tryed to fix that bad design in HoTS with warping tech, and result worst, and now tryed to refix to LotV, is just more simple redesign protoss with competent people, and not still trying to fix that bad design sacrificing all the game to it. Blizzard should take the development seriously, and not just drop a bad product bcoz they want to sell it to christmas.
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EPT
