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United States4883 Posts
On May 12 2015 11:50 Parcelleus wrote:Show nested quote +Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best. Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting. Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
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On May 12 2015 15:06 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 11:20 halfaspider wrote:
Would anybody miss them if Blizz just took removed mines, oracles, and SH? I don't mind WoL with LotV economy. TRUE will win any ZvT. Can someone cure my ignorance that why having multiple arbiters in Broodwar with mass recall is not OP?
Too much gas in PvZ, you'll just get run over be Zerglings with the recalls.
In PvT that is exactly what P tries to do lategame. T tries to stop them by planting huge spider mine fields within their bases and at target recall spots, as well as placing science vessels across those paths to use EMP on the arbiters. Also, there are MASS missile turrets across the map to prevent the Arbiters from flying.
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I like the max time ideas. 1.5 hours is perfect for the game to play out, anything longer is just a stalemate.
Broodlord range increase is going to be very strong.
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On May 12 2015 15:13 theRayeGun wrote:
I don't really like the mass recall change. Might as well just add a nydus upgrade to nexus so Protoss can teleport their units one by one to other bases. Solves the problem of mobility between bases and not too overpowered like mass recall. We might even see some proxy nexus in the late late game to bring tier 3 units up front towards the opponent's base.
I can stand behind all other changes especially any nerfs to disrupter. I still don't get that unit.
This reminds me of imperial guard in the original dawn of war :D. the army was slow and the core units were rather weak, so you could transport units through buildings to compensate for that. Setting up for and coming from transport was taking some time (10-20 seconds?), but you could save up units in some kind of buffer and then release them where needed.
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I think blizzard is being dumb. In chess, complexity arises out of simplicity. Right now blizzard is trying to make things complex w/o realizing their game is already complex and needs simple answers.
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Russian Federation104 Posts
so we are not going to get any economy changes, thats the worst thing in my opinion
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haha, this beta is such a joke, and who honestly didnt expect that?
slight tweaking of numbers in a broken game, while introducing ever more potentially broken mechanics
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and the new terran units will be functional in the last week or what?
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In my opinion 30 minutes is a bit short of a hard cap for tournament games. Seems like I regularly have games going at least 20 minutes unless theres alot of early pressure.
All of the other changes I pretty much agree with. Recall change might be a bit much though. Will have to try it out myself.
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I have the feeling zerg will be trash before the game even goes live. Enjoy being balanced while you can friends.
Beside the lurker, I am not sure about the stalemate timer thingy. Long games don't happen that often and when they do happen it's because of mech. Of course mech will always have more XP because of its super cost effective units, so here you got another terran buff.Terran is already strong and they want to make it even stronger (lol spash damage air? Really?)
Protoss will still get shat on once people know how to split against disruptors and again the whole race relies on gimmicky units (mothership core buff, disruptor, stasis) instead of being completely redesigned.
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Italy12246 Posts
I don't like how blizzard isn't just fucking buffing gateway units directly (not properly anyway, the zealot change is silly as sc2john pointed out), like they are all scared of protoss starting to 7gate left and right. It's like they aren't even aware that a) any warpgate timing is massively nerfed by the 12 worker start and b) their economic model is designed specifically to encourage people to attack and transition while massively nerfing all-ins, further making two base all-ins pretty bad at best.
They have a lot of room to finally change protoss from the silly idea of the high tech expensive units being core and gateway units being mostly support, but they aren't doing anything about it. Seriously, get away from the gimmicky stargate or robo tech or whatever, and balance protoss around stalker/zealot/adept+situational support tech units PLEASE
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I don't mind the teleport, it means Protoss can move out and poke around. Currently they only move out when they have a deathball.
The bigger issue is why no economy changes?? Double harvest model??
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On May 12 2015 18:23 Highways wrote:
I don't mind the teleport, it means Protoss can move out and poke around. Currently they only move out when they have a deathball.
The bigger issue is why no economy changes?? Double harvest model??
Why no economy changes? Because DH (or at least the best kind of DH, DH8) is clearly not what they are searching for. LotV is taking the direction of a game whose goal is to have games that are fast-paced, quickly over, not forgiving, featuring big armies and many spells/abilities to make micro exciting (for the viewer), and with constant action from both sides (there's a high chance that these goal won't be reached, but w/e), which implies a lack of asymetry in the way the game plays out (no mobile vs immobile, no cheap units vs expensive units, no many units vs few units, etc). DH, while it can be made more adequate to the LotV idea by tweaking numbers, is at its core a system that favors the opposite : asymetric compositions, more forgiving to mistakes, slower-paced, longer games in general, smaller armies, etc.
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2450 Posts
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
>Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
yeah I hate that too. "Design"...
Toss is really the only race that can push anytime due to Warpgate, where you don't have to worry how your army moves over the map (just warp in the face of the opponent) etc etc.
While other mechanics prevent it from being imba, I still hate it that these basic strategic decisions are not required as toss.
Oh and you finally move out, see the opponent is superior? Just recall.
Oh you catch the opponent off-guard (cause he can't be everywhere), just do ridiculous amounts of damage and then recall.
I hate that a race can be so "cowardy"...
Yeah, and I am not complaining about balance here, but about the design
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If Blizzard fixes these 3 things I'll be happy.
Fix economy
To encourage expanding
Fix warpgate
Design issue. A lot of protoss games they win easily or lose easily. Not much back and forth action.
Remove colossus
Boring a-move unit. Protoss needs a skillful AOE unit. Collosus is sooo boring to watch and no skill to play.
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2450 Posts
On May 12 2015 19:45 Highways wrote:
If Blizzard fixes these 3 things I'll be happy.
Fix economy
To encourage expanding
Fix warpgate
Design issue. A lot of protoss games they win easily or lose easily. Not much back and forth action.
Remove colossus
Boring a-move unit. Protoss needs a skillful AOE unit. Collosus is sooo boring to watch and no skill to play.
1)I think they are trying really hard on this
2) Warpgate, as one of the designs that make the game too volatile. It should either way go back to BW stages, and of course the units out of the warpgate can then be a little stronger again, or it should only work for "light" units or so (for harassement purposes. Like Zealots)
3)couldn't agree more. Especially in deathball-games, colossus and HT is just so damn boring.
Additions
I also think the orbital is a stupidly designed unit: can outrun and outmaneuvre everything, has guaranteed kills...
I hate that Protoss is so cheesy/full of possible BS builds. I hate that you don't know what to prepare for sometimes, even if you scout like a madman. Some maps are so big you miss hidden stuff and you can't search everywhere. Also some allins aren't really allins and there is way too often an easy transition out of it if it fails - so it should get more punished if it fails.
Terran:
Make the old tank again. Remove the Sieged-Tank-Drop-Ability. Or make the Tank +Shield damage, in order to be more effective in TvP
Widow Mine.... is a stupidly designed unit. Way too random if it does damage or not. Terran is a race that is all about control, adding a unit that has very random effect if it hits or doesn't is stupid.
Give the reaper something that makes him useful in the midgame as well. At this moment its almost a pure scouting unit.
Zerg:make tech paths harder to achieve. Especially in ZvT: when the Terran finally has the right composition or counter to the zergs units, and after a costy trade the zerg morphs in the complete hardcounter of what the terran has on the field. Even though the game before was basically even, this is a "buildorder win" midgame. Especially in TvZ with T playing Mech and Zerg just switching to mutas or whatever.
Banelings should get more then 0.5 supply.
Remove anything that spawns free units.
In general: remove the volatile design of some units and abilities: they shouldn't just either win you the game (or do lots of damage) or don't do damage at all.
Maybe Blizz should reconsider the damage output again. After 10-15 Minutes of constant trading and having a close game with the opponent, sometimes 1 fight that only lasts 2 seconds decides all. These anticlimatic endings are boring to watch (as eSport-Games) and frustrating to play (on ladder).
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50 energy recall and 1.5hr as a time limit for games are absolutely laughable. Ridiculous.
The rest I can get behind.
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Nobody is scaired by the description of the new terran unit ? A fast unit that deals AOE dmg, and after deals heavy dmg on the ground ?
Why terrans always has the fastest units of the game, and when it's slow, medivac can carry it lol.
Of couse no idea of how it cost, how good is it, but i'm definetly a bit concerned about this annoncement.
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2450 Posts
On May 12 2015 20:59 Tyrhanius wrote:
Nobody is scaired by the description of the new terran unit ? A fast unit that deals AOE dmg, and after deals heavy dmg on the ground ?
Why terrans always has the fastest units of the game, and when it's slow, medivac can carry it lol.
Of couse no idea of how it cost, how good is it, but i'm definetly a bit concerned about this annoncement.
Terran having the fastest units in the game?
You and your Zerg avatar: did you ever research zergling speed. Because with Zergling speed, thes freaking things can outran CARS (Hellions).
Mutas are so fast, that you cannot catch them even when stimmed.
The only time Terran is fast is a couple of secs with medivac-boost. But lets hope there is nothing under the medivacs when boost is done or mutas don't follow the medivacs...
Roaches currently almost outrun Terran units WHEN BURROWED.
"Terran always having fastest units" gotta be kidding me.
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On May 12 2015 10:06 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2015 09:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Interesting changes. Glad to see the Mothership not being forgotten. I think there's potential there.
Even the BL is getting some love o.O. Dunno how I feel about that route though, 11 range is pretty nice but I think I'd rather they just make the morph off of the muta combined with a new direction for the corruptor. I had this idea in my head of reworking the Corruptor to be anti light, and for corruption to be redesigned as a small splash spell that slowed down all bio units. This would serve as a genuinely reliable method of wresting away air control in ZvZ. Then you could reintroduce something thematically similar to the Devourer as a morph off of the Mutalisk that served as Zerg's anti armored and anti capital ship air-to-air attacker. But I like both the Ravager and the Lurker a lot, so I wouldn't want them to remove one of them in favor of this concept. Granted, the Devourer was a bit lame in BW, but it had an intriguing potential to its acid spores effect, and it looked soooo cool that I always wished it could've had more of a role in high-level gameplay.
Hive upgrade to make corruption give the following effect: units affected will deal x% of the damage to nearby air units. Viper spell removed. (although this seems quite spammy)
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EPT
