Hey everyone! We’ve got more updates on the way for the Legacy of the Void Multiplayer beta. However, before we get to the specific changes and what else we’re working on internally, we’d like to talk about a couple things.
First, we’d like to inquire once more on the in-game clock changing to real time. This change is looking positive so far, so we’d like to start thinking about committing to making this change for Legacy of the Void. On our end, we see the advantages and disadvantages of going either way, and we’d really love to rely on you all to make a call in this area that you feel is best. The only thing we must avoid is having an option to go back and forth between the HotS clock and a real-time clock. We are sure that this will be confusing, especially when viewing various events that use different clocks.
The second thing we want to address also relates to time. As you likely know, the StarCraft II development team is currently working on an automated tournament feature. Just as it was in Warcraft 3 automated tournaments, we can’t have two people that play for hours drag out a result for everyone else in the same automated tournament. The solution that we are currently testing for this dilemma is to end every automated tournament game at the 30 min mark (~42 min or so in HoTS time), at which point the winner is determined by whichever player earned more XP in that game. This number itself isn’t final, and we’ll be looking at how the actual tournament games turn out. We can easily tune this as needed when we start testing automated tournaments.
When exploring this specific concept for automated tournaments, we also wondered if every melee game in SC2 should also have a rule like this to prevent long, boring, dragged out games in the future. We believe with the Swarm Host fix, as well as how so many changes in LoTV cater heavily towards aggressive play, the chances of 2-3+ hour games happening in the future is quite low. However, we also know that some dragged out games have happened due to players trolling, or other player behaviors that can’t be controlled. To avoid this, we are considering putting a time limit on standard melee games around the 1.5 hour mark or so since this seems to be beyond the longest a legitimate game could go. We are only beginning to consider this idea, and we wanted to hear your thoughts on this subject in order to make a better decision.
Now, let move on and discuss the specific changes we’re thinking about for the next balance update.
Mothership Core & Mothership
Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy With the resource changes in LotV, we agree that Protoss seems to be struggling the most when it comes to defending bases at various locations. We believe that decreasing the cost of Mass Recall is a good change, in that it will both help Protoss players defend multiple bases easier, and also allow them to play more aggressive throughout the early/mid stages of the game.
Mothership
Movement speed increased from 1.41 to 1.88 to match the Mothership Core Same abilities as Mothership Core + Cloaking Field Previously, we were exploring a lot of new abilities and ideas on this front. For now however, we have decided to make the Mothership simply a much improved version of the Mothership Core. Mothership Core abilities are critical throughout the course of the game, but towards the end of the game, the Mothership Core becomes an extremely fragile unit. Therefore, we’d like to try having the Mothership be just a better version of the Mothership Core that no longer has trade-offs for its increased stats.
Oracle Stasis: Forced Auto-cast
We’re seeing certain strategies with the Oracle’s Stasis ability where players are stacking the ability several times, and then manually detonating them over time to indefinitely leave units in Stasis. With our focus on constant combat, this is obviously something that we have no desire for and this change should effectively end this behavior.
Brood Lord
Range increased to 11 No longer has the frenzied passive We’ve been exploring potential changes to the Brood Lord, and we’ve recently settled on a range increase to differentiate the unit further from other tech options Zerg has at that tier. Additionally, we’re removing the passive ability of Frenzy now since it is not needed. For context, this ability was added back when ZvZ defensive Swarm Host + mass Spore Crawler was an issue, but now that the issue is gone, we no longer see the need for this ability to protect Brood Lords from the Viper’s abduct.
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Lurker damage changed from 30 damage to 20 +10 vs. armored
We feel that the counter to mass Lurkers is too heavily leaning towards mass air. We’d like to try out this change in order to see if we can get more ground based interactions against the Lurker. With the unique way that Lurker’s deal damage, it would be great to see more micro against players using Lurkers.
Disruptor gains unit type: Armored
The Disruptor survives for a bit too long even when caught off guard, and we didn’t want to do a big nerf to the unit yet, so we picked something small in adding that +armored damage units will deal more damage against them. It’s also convenient that the unit looks armored, so this felt like a good change to test out.
Closing
As a final update, we wanted to let you know more about the areas we’re testing internally.
We’re exploring ways to give more power to Terran bio play. We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe. We’re developing the new Terran unit We’re getting comfortable with the air unit we’ve been exploring. Here’s how it currently operates: Two attack modes: Fast movement with spash-damage vs air Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
We’re doing our best to get this unit out to you all as soon as possible. In addition to this new unit, we will be once again splitting apart mech and air upgrades at the Armory. We believe the Starport is more all-around in its capabilities now, and we’re seeing a lot of cool things in internal playtests. With the mech upgrades being split out again, Terran players will need to more fully choose which tech paths they would like to commit to.
As always, please remember that none of this is final since we’re still in the early stages of the beta, and your feedback is always welcome. Please let us know your thoughts on any of the topics discussed above so that together, we can make the decisions that are best for the game. Thank you!
>Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
To avoid this, we are considering putting a time limit on standard melee games around the 1.5 hour mark or so since this seems to be beyond the longest a legitimate game could go.
Brb, looking for my 2:22:13 WoL game that wasn't decided until after the 2 hour mark.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
We’re seeing certain strategies with the Oracle’s Stasis ability where players are stacking the ability several times, and then manually detonating them over time to indefinitely leave units in Stasis. With our focus on constant combat, this is obviously something that we have no desire for and this change should effectively end this behavior.
Blizzard always trying to stomp down on creativity.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
This so much... are they even aware of what they are doing?
Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
I was REALLY hoping Blizzard would remove the mothership/core altogether not buff it and even consider adding more abilities to it. Buffing a bandaid unit doesnt fix the core problem that protoss is just not a well designed race. I know I'm gonna get hate for that but thats just a fact of the matter. I was really hoping they would take the plunge and rework protoss so its a more fun to watch/play in LotV instead of trying to polish the same turd.
pleeeaaase don't add a max game length for ladder and (not ingame) tournaments. The long and goofy games are also the most memorable and tend to get the most viewership, I really dislike the idea of removing them.
Fully understand limiting game length for tournaments though, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a better way
Well, I can definitely get behind those Protoss changes. I didn't even consider the possibility of abusing stasis that way though haha.
While I feel these are overall good changes, I'm a tad disappointed they aren't more...severe? Maybe this is just a tweak patch and we'll get a bigger one later this month. Still hoping Blizzard goes crazy with trying new things.
It also looks like they're pretty set on this silly half-patch economy. I gotta be honest, that might be a big deal breaker for me with LotV, I just hate how it makes games feel =/
Having said all that, the stuff about automated tournaments gets me really excited in my special place! 30 min cap on games for automated tournaments seems TOTALLY reasonable, we'll just have to see if "XP earned" is the best metric or not.
edit: WTF at people shitting on the Recall changes? Protoss sucks right now precisely because it's so friggin' hard to defend multiple bases as early as you need them in LotV. Do you really want Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/robo units to move as fast as stimmed bio/Zerg on creep? I prefer this solution, it's more Protoss-y and doesn't require a pretty big change to all other Protoss ground units.
All the knee-jerk reactions towards David Kim testing things out in a free beta are making me nauseous.
Yes, the Starcraft 2 development team is fully aware that reducing the Recall energy cost to 50 could have detrimental effects - they are testing this out exactly because this is Beta and there are no tournaments or out-comes to influence. LotV does not even have ladder ranks - this is the perfect time to attempt radical changes.
Consider how difficult it is to try and release balance updates in HotS - the performance of many pro-gamers is on the line. We've had to wait many MONTHS in order for the Swarm Host nerf to come out, and even then the change to the Swarm Hosts is not final. (There were further changes made to the Swarm Host in LotV that could potentially be transferred to HotS)
Still nothing about the economy eh, that's a shame. It's too hard to scout openers with the economy being so fast, even with immediate scouting workers on 4 player maps.
Lurker damage reduction is good, may need a health reduction too though.
Hate the MSC and Mothership changes, in fact the units are just crap in the first place, they encourage unit clumping and make for boring games, especially the mothership.
Broodlord change was random, not sure why they did that.
I almost, almost think it's a good sign that they haven't made any economic changes, since they promised heavy changes that aren't anywhere to be seen. Still very nervous.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
I wish they were clearer on the Broodlord change. Is it the broodlord range that goes from 9.5 to 11, or is it the broodling range that changes from 9 to 11. Because if it really is the first, that mainly helps with a-moving and all of that stuff, but isn't really a change to the broodlords range.
On May 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote: Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
They are buffing the speed of two units in one single patch (zealot and mothership). I think your compulsion to critize the game made you miss that.
On May 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote: Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
They are buffing the speed of two units in one single patch (zealot and mothership). I think your compulsion to critize the game made you miss that.
and mothership mothership MOTHERSHIP
you gotta be kidding me that this is your excuse for blizzard giving protoss more mobility...
Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy With the resource changes in LotV, we agree that Protoss seems to be struggling the most when it comes to defending bases at various locations. We believe that decreasing the cost of Mass Recall is a good change, in that it will both help Protoss players defend multiple bases easier, and also allow them to play more aggressive throughout the early/mid stages of the game.
I´m surprised that better positioning + preemptive observers + static D + defensive warp-ins + Photon Overcharge + Emergency Recall already is not enough to deal with aggression.
Range increased to 11 No longer has the frenzied passive We’ve been exploring potential changes to the Brood Lord, and we’ve recently settled on a range increase to differentiate the unit further from other tech options Zerg has at that tier. Additionally, we’re removing the passive ability of Frenzy now since it is not needed. For context, this ability was added back when ZvZ defensive Swarm Host + mass Spore Crawler was an issue, but now that the issue is gone, we no longer see the need for this ability to protect Brood Lords from the Viper’s abduct.
I like the way they are looking in retrospective and understanding the contexts of the changes they previously made, I hope they take this approach and apply it towards on other future changes too.
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
[...] we will be once again splitting apart mech and air upgrades at the Armory. We believe the Starport is more all-around in its capabilities now, and we’re seeing a lot of cool things in internal playtests. With the mech upgrades being split out again, Terran players will need to more fully choose which tech paths they would like to commit to.
I like this a lot, no longer will transitioning from mech into air mech be that easy, it´ll require a rather decent transitioning time, or focusing on both air and ground attack upgrades in that case, sacrificing the armor.
On May 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote: Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
They are buffing the speed of two units in one single patch (zealot and mothership). I think your compulsion to critize the game made you miss that.
and mothership mothership MOTHERSHIP
you gotta be kidding me that this is your excuse for blizzard giving protoss more mobility...
Why are you not talking about the zealot?
The relevant fact is that Blizzard is willing to change the speed of protoss units, as we can see from this patch.
Completely random changes instead of changing things that really need it at the moment? Like mass adept with like 6 gates and warpprism is literally unstoppable as Terran?
On May 12 2015 03:45 padiseal2 wrote: pleeeaaase don't add a max game length for ladder and (not ingame) tournaments. The long and goofy games are also the most memorable and tend to get the most viewership, I really dislike the idea of removing them.
Fully understand limiting game length for tournaments though, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a better way
Completely agree. Also there's unfortunately the possibility that players try to abuse that time limit, playing not to win, but to have more points at cutoff.
On May 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote: Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
They are buffing the speed of two units in one single patch (zealot and mothership). I think your compulsion to critize the game made you miss that.
and mothership mothership MOTHERSHIP
you gotta be kidding me that this is your excuse for blizzard giving protoss more mobility...
Why are you not talking about the zealot?
The relevant fact is that Blizzard is willing to change the speed of protoss units, as we can see from this patch.
yeah. The upgraded zealot. You think you are going to rush out charge, so that you can hold a third base more easily? This is completely besides the issue. The zealot speed buff is done for a completely different (and dumb I might say - what does the strenght of the adept have to do with justifying a zealot buff) reason (though it is a good change).
And I've been hearing this "blizzard is willing to do X" for years now and it is rampant in this beta. I was even part of that chorus. But where are all those big changes they promised time and time again?
On May 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote: Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
They are buffing the speed of two units in one single patch (zealot and mothership). I think your compulsion to critize the game made you miss that.
Eh I just commented on the Zealot speed on Reddit 40 mins ago. (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/35me3r/new_lotv_beta_balance_preview_may_11/).
But the movement speed of Zealots isn't really gonna make any noticeable difference when it comes to defending bases (a small one, but its pretty marginal). What I am thinking about is that protoss gets a relatively cost efficient core army that doens't rely on perfect Forcefields (or other lame abilities) to secure and defend bases and perhaps put light pressure on the enemy.
And what on earth does Mothership have to do with anything here? Maybe you should consider trying to understand what the core issue actually is instead of being so quick to criticize others.
What has become increasingly obvious is that Blizzard intends to balance the game by making protoss very unique from the other races as they don't want it to be a "solid" race. No they want it to use teleports to defend multiple locations at once, which is extremely lame imo. Noone wants that!
We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe.
These are really solid changes. Lets come up with the best way to end stalemate situations, cuz this one could potentially harm an incredibly epic game.
On May 12 2015 03:45 Hider wrote: Such a shame that Blizzard is trying to balance the lack of mobility for protoss through teleports. I think this is almost an issue with Blizzard wanting each race to be as different as possible. I can't see any other reasons for why you wouldn't just give protoss a proper and relatively mobile core army so they could actually move their army around.
So I almost think it comes down to Blizzard overanalyzing the issue here and trying to add unique solutions, rather than just giving the players what they want.
They are buffing the speed of two units in one single patch (zealot and mothership). I think your compulsion to critize the game made you miss that.
and mothership mothership MOTHERSHIP
you gotta be kidding me that this is your excuse for blizzard giving protoss more mobility...
Why are you not talking about the zealot?
The relevant fact is that Blizzard is willing to change the speed of protoss units, as we can see from this patch.
yeah. The upgraded zealot. You think you are going to rush out charge, so that you can hold a third base more easily? This is completely besides the issue. The zealot speed buff is done for a completely different (and dumb I might say - what does the strenght of the adept have to do with justifying a zealot buff) reason (though it is a good change).
And I've been hearing this "blizzard is willing to do X" for years now and it is rampant in this beta. I was even part of that chorus. But where are all those big changes they promised time and time again?
Yeah I agree, just when it looked like they were going to change the core of the race they back up on the WG changes, make no big changes and leave us with these ones that are just gimmicks.
And this time is not about bitching at everything blizzard does, these changes are exactly what the community didn't want, they are not doing what they said they where going to do, wich is really sad.
The zealot movementspeed buff is funny. I have no idea why they dont change existing units NOW instead of LATER. Maybe this speedbuff is what they mean with existing changes? Then its depressing for me.
I feel like all of this hit-or-miss balance changing of Protoss to try to get them out of the early/midgame scuffle is going to end up spiraling out of control when Protoss manage to make it out.
"Are you satisfied with the general direction of the changes" poll pls. Oh yeah too
The only thing we must avoid is having an option to go back and forth between the HotS clock and a real-time clock. We are sure that this will be confusing
Dammit, so apparently, making choices is confusing. I understand so many things about life now !
I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
On May 12 2015 04:04 Aquila- wrote: Completely random changes instead of changing things that really need it at the moment? Like mass adept with like 6 gates and warpprism is literally unstoppable as Terran?
I've been away for about 10 days or so. Is this a legit strat now? 10 days ago adepts seemed gimmicky/weak. Guess I should start watching some streams again...
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote: I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
Agree 100%. Instand, downside-free teleportation should not be an RTS mechanic, but it's all Protoss is about and it just doesn't work no matter how much Blizzard tries to pretend it does. Recall + warp gates is just bad mechanics, and now they've made it even better.
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote: I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
Well put! I think i's more than 4 though, with the energy regeneration I'd say it's close to infinite recalls as long as they use them offensively. They can walk over the map, get surrounded, recall. By the time they repeated that mistake 3 more times, enough energy for 2 or 3 more recalls should be ready. Defensively, when recalling from Nexus to Nexus it's "only" 4 though.
Town Portal didn't cost 350 gold in wc3 for no reason, it's fucking OP. You can run around, snipe bases and port out, no risk. The balance doesn't even matter right now since it's beta, but just the design decision is mind boggling. You can't make a mistake as Protoss, you don't need units in position or scout the opponents army movement and you don't need to worry about being careful when getting aggressive. Nothing can happen.
50 energy for recall means that there's practically no consequence or punishment for protoss screwing up their engagement, other than losing a few units that get killed before recall is cast, or are left behind. So, no, this is a horrible change.
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote: I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
Let's just remove the MSC core from the game and buff Protoss Gateway units.
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote: I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
Well put! I think i's more than 4 though, with the energy regeneration I'd say it's close to infinite recalls as long as they use them offensively. They can walk over the map, get surrounded, recall. By the time they repeated that mistake 3 more times, enough energy for 2 or 3 more recalls should be ready. Defensively, when recalling from Nexus to Nexus it's "only" 4 though.
Town Portal didn't cost 350 gold in wc3 for no reason, it's fucking OP. You can run around, snipe bases and port out, no risk. The balance doesn't even matter right now since it's beta, but just the design decision is mind boggling. You can't make a mistake as Protoss, you don't need units in position or scout the opponents army movement and you don't need to worry about being careful when getting aggressive. Nothing can happen.
But you know what will happen? Since attack-->recall-->attack-->recall ad infinum is very obviously going to be overpowered, especially in combination with forcefields, blinks, shadow walks, disruptors, storms and shields making sure you get the better end of the first seconds of a battle before recalling, the only way to balance will be that Protoss never gets to attack before they have a deathball. NEVER. The moment they can start to attack, they snowball. Basically every Protoss unit becomes a locusts with this change. You think you have broken through to them and can finally start doing damage? HAHAHAHAHA, they aren't even there anymore.
I guess Terran can snipe the MsC with Vikings or EMP it.
I think its clear that even in LotV beta the problems with terran and zerg can be fixed with relatively easy number tweaks to the new/existing units. Protoss has been left poorly designed for so long, problems keeps cropping up with every expansion when they try to add new stuff. Adding more to a really bad foundation just wont cut it.
Protoss more than the other races NEED to make gimmicky spell caster units to cover up the glaring design flaws in the race, this shouldnt be the case, but its sad that it is and Blizzard sees nothing wrong with it.
If protoss wants to make effective use of their 4 recalls if the change goes through, they need to keep the mothership core with their army, which reduces the speed of the army to that of the core. If Blizz wants to give protoss more mobility, maybe not forcing them to have the core with their army would be a start. Or giving the core a speed boost through an upgrade, that invariably no one will get at first. In any case, templar are also slow as molasses, and colossi are not much faster.
Seems to me that the problem is that important protoss units in general are too slow, and giving the core 4 recalls instead of 2 doesn't fix that, if anything, no protoss will ever dare walk out without their core anymore, making them even slower.
The only change I really like is the zealot speed change because it lets zealots match speedlings. Also, the 12 worker start really needs to change... if the mining rate is going back to the Brood War model (haven't kept up with the current decision), set the worker start at 8 or 9
and yet protoss is supposedly weaker than the other races so how is them being more forgiving a bad thing when just about any engagement they make apparently has a higher chance of being a stupid one when compared to terran or zerg?
the mothership core recall change is a bit much...This makes it so that a protoss player can instantly come home multiple times with their full army. There's almost no incentive for a protoss player to leave a couple of units at home because Photon cannons and Overcharge already hit the ground. Adding 50 energy for recall only allows them to deathball even more...
On May 12 2015 04:42 Shinespark wrote: If protoss wants to make effective use of their 4 recalls if the change goes through, they need to keep the mothership core with their army, which reduces the speed of the army to that of the core. If Blizz wants to give protoss more mobility, maybe not forcing them to have the core with their army would be a start. Or giving the core a speed boost through an upgrade, that invariably no one will get at first. In any case, templar are also slow as molasses, and colossi are not much faster.
Seems to me that the problem is that important protoss units in general are too slow, and giving the core 4 recalls instead of 2 doesn't fix that, if anything, no protoss will ever dare walk out without their core anymore, making them even slower.
Very good point, increasing the dependency of the protoss army on the MSC is the worst they can do. Strategies will focus around it, once it gets sniped Protoss is fucked.
David Kim was probably watching Stats vs Maru on Proleague today and thought: "Stats has a base on the other side of the biggest map in the mappool that he cannot defend with his whole army while getting dropped at home. This isn't right!"
New economy force you to expand more. If you expand more you need to defence more. So every race need to be mobile and becomes more similar. But it's opposite to the idea of making races more different. Why not to try new economy model first and then tweaking units towards this model? Or is it final?
On May 12 2015 04:04 Aquila- wrote: Completely random changes instead of changing things that really need it at the moment? Like mass adept with like 6 gates and warpprism is literally unstoppable as Terran?
I figured this out and wrecked my friend with it lol. It's fun!
I had one idea recently for recall. 1. Remove Recall as we know it from the MSC 2. Put a SMALL radius "Mini Recall" as a 25 energy ability on the Nexus. This way, it will strategically compete with Chrono Boost.
For extra versatility: 3. allow Protoss to perform mini recall to any pylon power field somehow, not only to nexi. Great defensively, offensively, and limited by Nexus energy. The more nexi, the more opportunities. Obviously recalling a bunch of units offensively is still dangerous if they're stunned/vulnerable
i think this would make for a better strategy game rather than essentially designing the entire race around the mothership core
People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote: I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
Well put! I think i's more than 4 though, with the energy regeneration I'd say it's close to infinite recalls as long as they use them offensively. They can walk over the map, get surrounded, recall. By the time they repeated that mistake 3 more times, enough energy for 2 or 3 more recalls should be ready. Defensively, when recalling from Nexus to Nexus it's "only" 4 though.
like you said, "They can walk over the map, get surrounded, recall". Is that really a bad thing? if they can't walk over the map with a safe way to retreat they will never do that, instead, they will stay in low base numbers until the army is strong enough to win the game because otherwise they will get surrounded.
I don't know if it is the best solution for protoss, but I think it is worth a shot.
Using the energy from a single unit to defend spread out bases in replacement for core army mobility seems like risky business to me. Rather than simply having a timer expire in tournament play, and XP counted, has Blizzard considered something potentially more exciting such as first to control 3 out of 5 watchtowers spawning on the map at the 25 minute mark as the victory trigger? That would seem much more exciting to me than to watch games end with some turtling when ahead in XP?
A bit disappointed that the mobility of Terran Mech does not seem to be addressed. I don't see how a single new starport unit will do much for Mech, given the current state of that play style. I would have liked to see a trial of the proposed double harvest economic model, as early as possible, perhaps just for one week to have the community/developers get a feel for it. It feels like if something great is suggested by the community it cannot be considered in its original form (ego, legal issues?). Not quite sure what to think of it.
Well, at least they are giving help to the units that need it. Zealots, brood lords, and motherships are endangered species right now. I'm not sure if those changes actually accomplish anything though. I'd like to see in testing if this enables any new strategies.
On May 12 2015 04:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: I had one idea recently for recall. 1. Remove Recall as we know it from the MSC 2. Put a SMALL radius "Mini Recall" as a 25 energy ability on the Nexus. This way, it will strategically compete with Chrono Boost.
For extra versatility: 3. allow Protoss to perform mini recall to any pylon power field somehow, not only to nexi. Great defensively, offensively, and limited by Nexus energy. The more nexi, the more opportunities. Obviously recalling a bunch of units offensively is still dangerous if they're stunned/vulnerable
i think this would make for a better strategy game rather than essentially designing the entire race around the mothership core
Wow, I actually agree. That sounds way more fun/interesting than having to babysit a stupid Mothership Core.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
This would change instantly from stupid to clever if they instituted a soft cap of 1 Mothership Core per nexus, rather than only one in your entire army. There's such a fine line between stupid and clever. Then again, PO would be even dumber than it is now, and would really have to be moved directly to the Nexus.
On May 12 2015 04:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: I had one idea recently for recall. 1. Remove Recall as we know it from the MSC 2. Put a SMALL radius "Mini Recall" as a 25 energy ability on the Nexus. This way, it will strategically compete with Chrono Boost.
For extra versatility: 3. allow Protoss to perform mini recall to any pylon power field somehow, not only to nexi. Great defensively, offensively, and limited by Nexus energy. The more nexi, the more opportunities. Obviously recalling a bunch of units offensively is still dangerous if they're stunned/vulnerable
i think this would make for a better strategy game rather than essentially designing the entire race around the mothership core
On May 12 2015 04:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: I had one idea recently for recall. 1. Remove Recall as we know it from the MSC 2. Put a SMALL radius "Mini Recall" as a 25 energy ability on the Nexus. This way, it will strategically compete with Chrono Boost.
For extra versatility: 3. allow Protoss to perform mini recall to any pylon power field somehow, not only to nexi. Great defensively, offensively, and limited by Nexus energy. The more nexi, the more opportunities. Obviously recalling a bunch of units offensively is still dangerous if they're stunned/vulnerable
i think this would make for a better strategy game rather than essentially designing the entire race around the mothership core
Snute what you seem to forget is Blizzard doesn't want protoss players to have to make choices. too difficult for them :p
On May 12 2015 04:23 Liquid`Ret wrote: I cannot understand the 50 energy recall change. On a full energy mothership, protoss can make 4 fatal blunders, which would cost teran or zerg the game instantly, without any backlash. Oops, I shouldn't have been here, ahhh, not gonna lose any units anyway, peace.
The fact they have energy based non stop scouting - halluc, combined with instant teleportation just makes it so forgiving compared to terran and zerg who, in a sticky situation, can pretty much lose the game via wrong army movement.
So you are saying that you want protoss to have stronger core units that can defend expansions even without their entire army there? But the protoss player could lose the game if those units are at the wrong place at the wrong time? Sorry, that goes against Blizzard's design goals for protoss.
Since blizzard rly love actionpacked games why dont they introduce a teleport on a spellcaster instead? A fast spellcaster, blizzard would love it iam sure
Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
We’re exploring ways to give more power to Terran bio play. We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe. We’re developing the new Terran unit
YEAHHHHHHHHHHH TERRRRRRRRRRRRRANNNNNNNNNNNNNN
I don't give two shits about rest of the upate but MORE BIOOOOO POWER YEAHHHHH
Isn't there a danger that if they start putting a timer on the game, people in certain situations will start playing for the clock, thus defeating its purpose in the first place?
On May 12 2015 05:13 Nirel wrote: Isn't there a danger that if they start putting a timer on the game, people in certain situations will start playing for the clock, thus defeating its purpose in the first place?
Of course. I mean, given how the game works, some race will just get more XP with a standard playstyle as another. Like Zerg just mines more and produces more, so they get more XP. Or Terran is just more costefficient, hence they get more XP. Or Protoss can trade a lot of energy for XP. Something along those lines will be figured out in a fleshed out game, and the race that has the advantage in the XP of a particular matchup will eventually just start playing to not give the opponent any favorable engagements if it gets towards that point in the game.
On May 12 2015 04:56 Shinespark wrote: Serious question: is SC2 still even in the top 15 most watched esports right now?
I don't know, but I don't think we should care about that anymore. Blizzard should try to make it a good competitive game, but it's pretty clear that its future as an "eSports" has been forfeit since a long time ago.
On May 12 2015 04:56 Liquid`Snute wrote: I had one idea recently for recall. 1. Remove Recall as we know it from the MSC 2. Put a SMALL radius "Mini Recall" as a 25 energy ability on the Nexus. This way, it will strategically compete with Chrono Boost.
For extra versatility: 3. allow Protoss to perform mini recall to any pylon power field somehow, not only to nexi. Great defensively, offensively, and limited by Nexus energy. The more nexi, the more opportunities. Obviously recalling a bunch of units offensively is still dangerous if they're stunned/vulnerable
i think this would make for a better strategy game rather than essentially designing the entire race around the mothership core
Starbow has that. The recall is on the nexus and it has a limit of 5 units. I didn't it that much until they added a longer delay on it. It made reaver and storm drops too low risk imo. I like more it now.
On May 12 2015 04:56 Shinespark wrote: Serious question: is SC2 still even in the top 15 most watched esports right now?
I don't know, but I don't think we should care about that anymore. Blizzard should try to make it a good competitive game, but it's pretty clear that its future as an "eSports" has been forfeit since a long time ago.
Yes, thats why they are pumping Millions into the game. You guys are 100% MMO-Champion. Even asking if Starcraft 2 is even Top 15 is quite mental.
On May 12 2015 04:58 Elendur wrote: Rather than simply having a timer expire in tournament play, and XP counted, has Blizzard considered something potentially more exciting such as first to control 3 out of 5 watchtowers spawning on the map at the 25 minute mark as the victory trigger? That would seem much more exciting to me than to watch games end with some turtling when ahead in XP?
Unfortunately, that could still end up being a bit of a stalemate, especially if neither player feels confident that they can take the 5th tower if they each hold 2. Yes, it would be more exciting. But they're really looking for a hard limit, and that would not necessarily be provided by a space control oriented win condition.
A bit disappointed that the mobility of Terran Mech does not seem to be addressed. I don't see how a single new starport unit will do much for Mech, given the current state of that play style.
The new unit, as far as I remember their statements on it, is not actually intended to address the low mobility of mech. It's more to address some specific holes in mech, such as their issues dealing with Mutas, except when they get some great Thor shots off and just obliterate 60 supply of Mutas in one volley. It's a less binary and hopefully more interesting unit interaction than the current Thor vs Mutalisk relationship. I suspect that it's also intended to be fast enough to chase down unupgraded Warp Prisms. The immobile form that deal single-target damage may be intended to help pick off Zealots that close in on Siege Tanks and approaching Immortals. Keep in mind that high single-target damage is crazy good against Immortals now, if they don't time their barriers correctly. In TvT, it will be better at chasing down Banshees than Vikings are, thus reducing Banshee efficacy in TvT (which is pretty frustrating to play against, imho) until the lategame speed upgrade. In TvZ bio, it may be used in immobile form to help tear down Ultralisks. I thought Widow Mines were already fairly effective in that, but I guess now you'll be able to save your WM shots for big clumps of massed Banelings. It remains to be seen, based on exactly what the numbers are.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
The second thing we want to address also relates to time. As you likely know, the StarCraft II development team is currently working on an automated tournament feature. Just as it was in Warcraft 3 automated tournaments, we can’t have two people that play for hours drag out a result for everyone else in the same automated tournament. The solution that we are currently testing for this dilemma is to end every automated tournament game at the 30 min mark (~42 min or so in HoTS time), at which point the winner is determined by whichever player earned more XP in that game.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
I don't know about the effect of every change they implement for the beta players to test, but it sounds overall very promising.
If I see a theme, it is to flesh out unit roles a bit more. For example, the small Zealot movement speed increase with the leg upgrade seems negligible, but should make it easier to use the Zealots as 'meat shield'.
On May 12 2015 04:47 PinoKotsBeer wrote: The recall change is adding another 2 continues to a protoss player. Made a mistake? just recall, 3 continues left try again.
Over-committed on static defense? let's just salvage and get most of the money back.
Lacks game sense? Just build a sensor tower
Didn't scout an area with a unit? Just scan instantly for instant reveal
Forgot to free up supply? Bring down a depot
Forgot to spend energy of OC? Just save them up for the gold minerals while Z / P suffer late upgrades / worker production economy
On May 12 2015 05:09 Foxxan wrote: Since blizzard rly love actionpacked games why dont they introduce a teleport on a spellcaster instead? A fast spellcaster, blizzard would love it iam sure
Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
This sounds cool.
Meh.... Instead of making viking transformation useful, they just add another instead?
On May 12 2015 04:14 Foxxan wrote: The zealot movementspeed buff is funny. I have no idea why they dont change existing units NOW instead of LATER. Maybe this speedbuff is what they mean with existing changes? Then its depressing for me.
Good thing i always care for the editor tho
I think Blizzard is already trying to consolidate and making changes only in response to balance concerns and for potential issues with the new units. They're not going to redesign protoss and I would bet my life DH is not going to be publically tested.
I'm not sure why they even bothered with the lengthy beta, because it doesn't really seem like they're planning to make use of the extra time available. I suppose they wanted to test the economy changes a bit more just to be sure it wouldn't break the game and that's why they started early?
On May 12 2015 04:14 Foxxan wrote: The zealot movementspeed buff is funny. I have no idea why they dont change existing units NOW instead of LATER. Maybe this speedbuff is what they mean with existing changes? Then its depressing for me.
Good thing i always care for the editor tho
I think Blizzard is already trying to consolidate and making changes only in response to balance concerns and for potential issues with the new units. They're not going to redesign protoss and I would bet my life DH is not going to be publically tested.
I'm not sure why they even bothered with the lengthy beta, because it doesn't really seem like they're planning to make use of the extra time available. I suppose they wanted to test the economy changes a bit more just to be sure it wouldn't break the game and that's why they started early?
Do we even know that the beta is going to be longer than usual? How long was the beta last time? Like 6-8months? Who is to say that this isn't their concept of a long beta anyways. Maybe they will push it out at christmas.
What Protoss needs is a Reaver instead of the Adept and Colossus. Having a mobile-immobile axis of choice for protoss would greatly improve the dynamics of the game. Also, the Widow Mine needs to stop being a hardcounter to Carriers and Chargelots. Literally all the bad dynamics that involve PvT and PvZ arise because the Colossus is such a powerful and mobile unit that begs for accessible hard counters. Disruptor is just too gimmicky to be a good substitute for the other two aoe's. It doesn't feel very rewarding as it simply feels like a win button if the opponents skills is below a certain threshold.
EDIT: Also, I don't know why they don't just make an armored slow-move-attacking high burst valkyrie that is capable of soft countering phoenix and mutalisks with a speed buff in the tech lab? Doesn't need another transformer.
I agree that stacking stasis was pretty stupid but I don't think this is the best way to address it. It could be unstackable, and after units are released they could have a small (3 seconds-ish?) cooldown where they weren't vulnerable to another one. The manual detenation rewarded vigilent play and I don't like that it's gone.
Lurkers were incredibly hard to engage but I like that they're so formidable. The damage change isn't going to affect protoss very much. We want carriers eventually, regardless of composition, lurkers just provide an incentive to start tech switching earlier. I do wonder how it will play out with bio, though.
The recall change isn't my favorite but it's a decent fit assuming they're not going to rework the protoss early game from the ground up.
I'm struggling to get my head around the fact that some people are arguing against it as if protoss mobility and retreat options are on par with the other races. Retreating is too expensive and trading is too ineffecient. Maybe the adept changes that, but for the time being I'm ok with it.
Might just be the people I play but I do think bio might be a little lackluster in tvp right now. Then again walling your natural against adepts seems pretty much necessary unless you open mech and maybe that just needs to be popularized. Better players probably have commentary on that.
I'm actually really enjoying lotv protoss, warpgate notwithstanding. It feels a lot more robust and aggressive than it ever has to me. The economy is the only thing really bothering me, I feel like removing worker pairing is kind of an obvious step when you already have to "pre-expand" to avoid starvation.
The disruptor is gambly, especially against zerg. It feels like you almost never get your value out of it and at times I think building colossi is better just to have reliable damage.
It fucking rocks vs bio though, so many terran tears were drank this weekend.
Edit: spelling
And on PvT, I think the cyclone got the wrong nerf. It's pretty easy to pressure the front with adepts and backstab with disruptor drops and vikings don't seem to come out fast enough to cut the mustard. Even if its AA was like 4 range with a range upgrade later on (I like that it's so late that protoss can still push out carriers without comitting suicide) it seems to me that would help shoo off warp prisms without just being a hard counter. And maybe a health or damage reduction on top of that. Then again, opening mech entirely solves the adept problem. Maybe there are some cool bio mech openings that we haven't seen yet. I dunno, kind of rambling now.
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
I'm more inclined to think what would REALLY piss off those salty, salty Terrans and Zergs?
Personally I think we'd see the real tears flow with some faster A-move skill-less Zealots and dumb, OP, A-move stupid Immortal changes, as well as some changes to Protoss's garbage EZ mode no thought Warpgate mechanic. ;P
Really though, I think Snute's idea is great, what do they NEVER complain about? Thats right! The Nexus... let's change that!
The Protoss army being dictated by the Mothership Core would kind of suck though, I've never really been fond of the MSC, and I'd rather have it's place taken by the Nexus in some form.
I think Blizzard is trying too hard to fix economic/macro mechanic/race design concept problems with unit balance instead...
1. Worker paring means getting an early expansion has no economic advantage unless you make more than 16 workers. The 1 base player on 16 workers has the same economy but much stronger army than the expanding player, therefore the expanding player needs an insane defender's advantage to secure his expansion, which in turn destroys all possible one base builds because they cannot overcome said insane defender's advantage. MSC was designed to give Protoss their defender's advantage, with the game as is, Protoss simply cannot expand without MSC.
2. Larva inject and mules, giving Zerg the ability to make an absurdly large early game army, and Terran the ability to mine a huge mineral income on 1 base with 100% mining efficiency. Once again, Protoss needs MSC's defender's advantage to expand or be stuck on 1 base for a long time, remember the 3 gate sentry expand because Protoss cannot deal with the sheer number of Zerg units that can be made so early?
3. Protoss in bw had a strong gateway core army of zealot/dragoons, supported by templars and arbiters. Protoss army development in SC2 is about replacing weak zealot/stalker/sentry with stronger higher tech units. This is a design concept that encourages/forces Protoss to make a deathball every game, which means very low mobility by race design, which then by necessity requires MSC's recall to defend multiple locations. Without a strong and relatively mobile core gateway army, Protoss needs recalls to move their expansive deathball around.
Issues caused by economy, macro mechanics,and design concepts are simply not fixable with unit balance alone. It may seem easier to "fix" things with fancy units and spells, but in the end these shortcuts only hurts the game.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
All the time.
The problem Protoss has is that it can't retreat. Protoss units are too slow. Stim bio/speedlings/even roaches can run away and be fine.
So it's not that Protoss should never be punished for bad positioning... it's that good positioning is not as easy to guarantee before the fight because you can't reposition your units as well.
So it's not that Protoss should never be punished for bad positioning... it's that good positioning is not as easy to guarantee before the fight because you can't reposition your units as well.
Which indeed is the problem and Recall is the band-aid fix (unfortunately).
adding a max time limit to melee games is just one of the worst ideas I've heard. There is a draw timer for "illegitimate" games if that's even a thing...
I'm all for a broodlord buff but this is the worst possible buff that could be done. increasing the range will make it completely impossible for ground units to attack the broodlords which will lead to very frustrating games where a player just wins when he has broodlords + air superiority. It will be wol all over again. What broodlords need is a speed buff.
On May 12 2015 06:14 w3jjjj wrote: I think Blizzard is trying too hard to fix economic/macro mechanic/race design concept problems with unit balance...
That line pretty much sums up the Beta. I really hope we see real structural changes to SC2. And this new economy isn't what we need.
I really hate the idea of Zealots being a late game unit only. It is the first combat unit Protoss gets access to in their tech tree, the only minerals only combat unit, it just makes no sense.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
All the time.
Please, you're talking about the 10% of game in which some 3rax bio attack against Protoss occurs.
The problem Protoss has is that it can't retreat. Protoss units are too slow. Stim bio/speedlings/even roaches can run away and be fine.
Might want to check out 2base 3-4gate blink openings against Terran or 2base 3-4gate recall attacks against zerg that work with 100energy recall, no need to make it 50. They are just as bad if perfectly deflected as bio before medivac pressure, but seen just as often. And can retreat marvelously.
So it's not that Protoss should never be punished for bad positioning... it's that good positioning is not as easy to guarantee before the fight because you can't reposition your units as well.
But blizzard isn't adressing that problem. They are exactly doing what you are saying should not happen, which is that Protoss is harder to get punished. Their positioning, which I agree can be tough with those slower armies, doesn't change at all.
This is looking really bad, I am glad they are making balance changes but still no ladder? And these balance changes are so extreme / ridiculous, even more so than the current state of the beta...This is not looking good, Blizz will need to do a complete full on fix just like they did right before they released HOTS I think...
I have to recant. I went back and read Snute's suggestion and I actually really like it. I read somewhere a suggestion that oracles should have an upgrade at the fleet beacon to become a "beacon" themselves, recalling small numbers of units to them a la arbiters. I'd love to see something like that.
On May 12 2015 06:36 Charoisaur wrote: I'm all for a broodlord buff but this is the worst possible buff that could be done. increasing the range will make it completely impossible for ground units to attack the broodlords which will lead to very frustrating games where a player just wins when he has broodlords + air superiority. It will be wol over again. What broodlords need is a speed buff.
Their low speed is such an important part of their design and their tech path though. If you want a mobile ground army, at the cost of oafish engagements, you go Ultras. If you want a sluggish air army, at the cost of being vulnerable to being outmaneuvered by the opponent, you go BLs. What I'd rather see is that their initial attack is slightly lowered in damage, and in return, they can spawn up to 3 Broodlings. This would lower their strength when left alone to auto attack with 1 Broodling at a time, but it would increase their ability to create a strong initial engagement. It would also more greatly reward good kiting with BLs, since their Broodling spawning timer is just barely over their attack cooldown. As it stands, you can already stop their attack for a tiny bit in order to attack twice as powerfully just a little bit later. With a maximum of 3 Broodlings, there is more encouragement to kite back out of harms way and respawn a full complement of Broodlings over the course of ~7.5 seconds, and then return to the engagement.
I agree with all the current poll results. Mass recall at 50 energy is probably too strong. I feel like they should maybe be more ambitious about rebalancing the stats of gateway units given that this is such a long beta, instead of trying to find a cute trick to compensate for everything else being weak.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
All the time.
Please, you're talking about the 10% of game in which some 3rax bio attack against Protoss occurs.
The problem Protoss has is that it can't retreat. Protoss units are too slow. Stim bio/speedlings/even roaches can run away and be fine.
Might want to check out 2base 3-4gate blink openings against Terran or 2base 3-4gate recall attacks against zerg that work with 100energy recall, no need to make it 50. They are just as bad if perfectly deflected as bio before medivac pressure, but seen just as often. And can retreat marvelously.
So it's not that Protoss should never be punished for bad positioning... it's that good positioning is not as easy to guarantee before the fight because you can't reposition your units as well.
But blizzard isn't adressing that problem. They are exactly doing what you are saying should not happen, which is that Protoss is harder to get punished. Their positioning, which I agree can be tough with those slower armies, doesn't change at all.
Terran frequently moves out against Protoss and Zerg in the early game pre medivacs. Hellions are fast and can retreat if they need to (they roast the only unit that can keep up with them, excluding a total ambush with overwhelming numbers) and bio with concussive shells can get away from any early game Protoss comp.
I don't mean move out to attack. I just mean "are able to be outside their base" without negative repurcussions. Protoss doesn't have that luxury. So if you're out on the map and get found or forced into a fight, there's no running.
This is madness, I understand protoss is underpowered sure, I understand buffing core units(which is done here with zealots though) is rarely a good idea and therefore you need to buff other areas. But this msc and ms buffs are just bloody insane, its not like the protoss race needs more gimmicks or being able to use their gimicks more often. A Mothership at msc speed just sounds insane OP. Making one in the midgame would always be worth it, zerg having to make many overseers and protoss being able to snipe them, terran would have to scan for every fight. It will always cost the opponent more than protoss investment in the ms.
The new terran unit sounds ridiculous too, a flying "sc1" corsair that can turn itself into a static immortal and switch between.
Many ideas are good but these unit changes and designs just feel totally out of wack.
On May 12 2015 06:51 Doc Daneeka wrote: I agree with all the current poll results. Mass recall at 50 energy is probably too strong. I feel like they should maybe be more ambitious about rebalancing the stats of gateway units given that this is such a long beta, instead of trying to find a cute trick to compensate for everything else being weak.
That's the ideal situation. Imo the zealot speed is going to be a bigger step in that direction than it looks like on paper. I still think there are some weird holes in it though. Like I'd rather the adept had a range upgrade than a health upgrade, or that stalkers had a flat health boost. Gateway armies feel strong in very specific situations now, but in others are just as shitty as before (like anything involving primarily ranged armored units).
On May 12 2015 06:52 Shuffleblade wrote: This is madness, I understand protoss is underpowered sure, I understand buffing core units(which is done here with zealots though) is rarely a good idea and therefore you need to buff other areas. But this msc and ms buffs are just bloody insane, its not like the protoss race needs more gimmicks or being able to use their gimicks more often. A Mothership at msc speed just sounds insane OP. Making one in the midgame would always be worth it, zerg having to make many overseers and protoss being able to snipe them, terran would have to scan for every fight. It will always cost the opponent more than protoss investment in the ms.
The new terran unit sounds ridiculous too, a flying "sc1" corsair that can turn itself into a static immortal and switch between.
Many ideas are good but these unit changes and designs just feel totally out of wack.
You realize a full Mothership costs 400/400 + the tech to get there.
It's only fair that it require SOME response from the other race.
On May 12 2015 06:36 Charoisaur wrote: I'm all for a broodlord buff but this is the worst possible buff that could be done. increasing the range will make it completely impossible for ground units to attack the broodlords which will lead to very frustrating games where a player just wins when he has broodlords + air superiority. It will be wol over again. What broodlords need is a speed buff.
Their low speed is such an important part of their design and their tech path though. If you want a mobile ground army, at the cost of oafish engagements, you go Ultras. If you want a sluggish air army, at the cost of being vulnerable to being outmaneuvered by the opponent, you go BLs. What I'd rather see is that their initial attack is slightly lowered in damage, and in return, they can spawn up to 3 Broodlings. This would lower their strength when left alone to auto attack with 1 Broodling at a time, but it would increase their ability to create a strong initial engagement. It would also more greatly reward good kiting with BLs, since their Broodling spawning timer is just barely over their attack cooldown. As it stands, you can already stop their attack for a tiny bit in order to attack twice as powerfully just a little bit later. With a maximum of 3 Broodlings, there is more encouragement to kite back out of harms way and respawn a full complement of Broodlings over the course of ~7.5 seconds, and then return to the engagement.
Their design right now is that they are extremely slow but strong in direct fights. But who says the design shouldn't be changed if it improves the game? What is more interesting? a nearly invincible army where the opponent can only try to run around and pull the zerg apart while the broodlords slowly crawl across the map and destroy everything in their path (hello wol) or a slightly more mobile army which is still strong but can be dealt with with the right composition and good micro. The thing is that the broodlord now completely zones out any ground units so the toss/terran can only attack them with pure air units. with fungal and the new viper spell I don't see how skyzerg can be beaten.
On May 12 2015 06:52 Shuffleblade wrote: This is madness, I understand protoss is underpowered sure, I understand buffing core units(which is done here with zealots though) is rarely a good idea and therefore you need to buff other areas. But this msc and ms buffs are just bloody insane, its not like the protoss race needs more gimmicks or being able to use their gimicks more often. A Mothership at msc speed just sounds insane OP. Making one in the midgame would always be worth it, zerg having to make many overseers and protoss being able to snipe them, terran would have to scan for every fight. It will always cost the opponent more than protoss investment in the ms.
The new terran unit sounds ridiculous too, a flying "sc1" corsair that can turn itself into a static immortal and switch between.
Many ideas are good but these unit changes and designs just feel totally out of wack.
You realize a full Mothership costs 400/400 + the tech to get there.
It's only fair that it require SOME response from the other race.
You realize that all of Starcraft units need money/gas and tech? Unless we are playing different games here...
Even though i do not like the change, i still want to see what protoss will be able to do with their new buffs.
On May 12 2015 06:14 w3jjjj wrote: I think Blizzard is trying too hard to fix economic/macro mechanic/race design concept problems with unit balance instead...
Isn't that what they ALWAYS did in SC2? If units/concepts A and B are bad/broken, let's change C and D to compensate.
For how long people complained about SH and how many changes to other units were made because of that. That pretty much sums up all patch changes for HotS. Now they reworked SH completly (as they should've done a few years ago) and the trend goes on. Eco problem? let's change the recall cost...
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
All the time.
Please, you're talking about the 10% of game in which some 3rax bio attack against Protoss occurs.
The problem Protoss has is that it can't retreat. Protoss units are too slow. Stim bio/speedlings/even roaches can run away and be fine.
Might want to check out 2base 3-4gate blink openings against Terran or 2base 3-4gate recall attacks against zerg that work with 100energy recall, no need to make it 50. They are just as bad if perfectly deflected as bio before medivac pressure, but seen just as often. And can retreat marvelously.
So it's not that Protoss should never be punished for bad positioning... it's that good positioning is not as easy to guarantee before the fight because you can't reposition your units as well.
But blizzard isn't adressing that problem. They are exactly doing what you are saying should not happen, which is that Protoss is harder to get punished. Their positioning, which I agree can be tough with those slower armies, doesn't change at all.
Terran frequently moves out against Protoss and Zerg in the early game pre medivacs. Hellions are fast and can retreat if they need to (they roast the only unit that can keep up with them, excluding a total ambush with overwhelming numbers) and bio with concussive shells can get away from any early game Protoss comp.
I don't mean move out to attack. I just mean "are able to be outside their base" without negative repurcussions. Protoss doesn't have that luxury. So if you're out on the map and get found or forced into a fight, there's no running.
Protoss has those options in the form of early game stalker pokes before stim is done, or oracle phoenix play. But sure, I fully agree that Protoss is lacking some solid mapcontrol unit, in particular against zerglings. But instead of that, blizzard has given Protoss in those two expansions: - the MsC with recall and PO to make up for mobility issues - the oracle, a flying spellcaster that can kill zerglings but not consistently - the adept, a unit that can combat zerglings somewhat but cannot run because they are again designed around a gimmick, instead of just having ~4movement speed. (HotS value; not so familiar with the LotV ones) On top of the already gimmicky forcefield+cater all maps towards protoss walling solution.
What bothers me with your argumentation is that blizzard is running circles around the Zergling vs Protoss issue, then introduces and buffs gimmicks to make up for that and then you come in and pretend it's "what Protoss needed". No, what Protoss needed is a well-designed adept. No superroach, but some form of a Protoss hellion.
I mean you gotta realize that MsC 50energy recall is not just going to be used to be out on the map with 3stalkers early. People are going to teleport their deathball around all game long if it only takes 64seconds to regain recall energy and you can store up to four of them. How that is a solution to "early game" mobility issues is beyond me. It's a solution to Protoss ever losing a combat when on the offense, which I'm afraid, is just stupid.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
That was the main thing that protoss needed for hots. Moving out early was terrible for prottos, arguably encouraging 4-gates, 2-base all ins, or just late game "death ball" style. Even on small maps you dont have time to move across the map before some 8 stimmed marauders have killed you natural, and key tech. Sure scouting and map awareness comes in here, so a more important example is that without MSC protoss could not move out early without flipping a coin, because if you got into an engagement where you were at a slight deficit/a slightly disadvantageous fight on the other side of the map you had 2 choises:
1) stay and fight and sack your army/trade bad 2) run away, saving your stalkers and let your zealots + sentries die
And how is that different for the other races? How often do you see a zerg attacking you before 10mins in HotS? How often do you see a Terran moving out before medivacs?
It's part of the game, or rather most of the RTS genre, that if you commit to army before economy, you are allin because you can't replace your stuff and move forward in tech/upgrade/base progression if it dies, because you never built up the economy for it.
All the time.
Please, you're talking about the 10% of game in which some 3rax bio attack against Protoss occurs.
The problem Protoss has is that it can't retreat. Protoss units are too slow. Stim bio/speedlings/even roaches can run away and be fine.
Might want to check out 2base 3-4gate blink openings against Terran or 2base 3-4gate recall attacks against zerg that work with 100energy recall, no need to make it 50. They are just as bad if perfectly deflected as bio before medivac pressure, but seen just as often. And can retreat marvelously.
So it's not that Protoss should never be punished for bad positioning... it's that good positioning is not as easy to guarantee before the fight because you can't reposition your units as well.
But blizzard isn't adressing that problem. They are exactly doing what you are saying should not happen, which is that Protoss is harder to get punished. Their positioning, which I agree can be tough with those slower armies, doesn't change at all.
Terran frequently moves out against Protoss and Zerg in the early game pre medivacs. Hellions are fast and can retreat if they need to (they roast the only unit that can keep up with them, excluding a total ambush with overwhelming numbers) and bio with concussive shells can get away from any early game Protoss comp.
I don't mean move out to attack. I just mean "are able to be outside their base" without negative repurcussions. Protoss doesn't have that luxury. So if you're out on the map and get found or forced into a fight, there's no running.
Protoss has those options in the form of early game stalker pokes before stim is done, or oracle phoenix play. But sure, I fully agree that Protoss is lacking some solid mapcontrol unit, in particular against zerglings. But instead of that, blizzard has given Protoss in those two expansions: - the MsC with recall and PO to make up for mobility issues - the oracle, a flying spellcaster that can kill zerglings but not consistently - the adept, a unit that can combat zerglings somewhat but cannot run because they are again designed around a gimmick, instead of just having ~4movement speed. (HotS value; not so familiar with the LotV ones) On top of the already gimmicky forcefield+cater all maps towards protoss walling solution.
What bothers me with your argumentation is that blizzard is running circles around the Zergling vs Protoss issue, then introduces and buffs gimmicks to make up for that and then you come in and pretend it's "what Protoss needed". No, what Protoss needed is a well-designed adept. No superroach, but some form of a Protoss hellion.
I mean you gotta realize that MsC 50energy recall is not just going to be used to be out on the map with 3stalkers early. People are going to teleport their deathball around all game long if it only takes 64seconds to regain recall energy and you can store up to four of them. How that is a solution to "early game" mobility issues is beyond me. It's a solution to Protoss ever losing a combat when on the offense, which I'm afraid, is just stupid.
I agree with Zergling vs. Protoss being a huge issue. I don't want 4 get out of jail free cards (as the MsC recall is being called) but rather just a unit that I can build in response to Zerglings for map control.
50 may be too low. I was thinking decreasing from 100 to 75 might be better.
EDIT - also another issue I jsut realized is that any early game poke by Protoss forces Zerglings instead of drones, but then you have nothing to deal with those same Zerglings when you want to take your 3rd....
So yeah basically some kind of more reliable way of killing/zoning out Zerglings early would be nice.
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
If the units are the problem maybe whats wrong isn't the balance but the design.
You can buff/nerf anything you want, but if the design is bad, the gameplay will always be bad.
Theres more to the game than just balance, its important to have well designed units/races/etc to have good gameplay.
But I'm not surprised you think this way, you were one of the persons that was the most vocal about HotS being perfect the only problems being SH/WM/medivacs boost (big surprise)
There has to be another way to give protoss an easier time defending. Even though i dont see msc energy as so problematic I still dont like it. (recall is good, but retreating units still take damage) think of recall more of a Medivac - boost escape, as soon as you retreat, you will lose things in return.
Im also a little surprised blizzard would introduce a change, that promotes deathball play.
Theres no reason in the msc beeing in the game at all, in a multi expand, less deathball goal game. - defending with MSC, above "balanced", defending without msc "garbage"
Balance changes all seem pretty good, I'm still really hoping we get the ghost rework though
I do understand why automated tournaments would require a time limit for games, but I vehemently object to a universal time limit - it's the very definition of a band-aid fix to a problem. If the players are having boring drawn out games, ideally let them figure out how to fix it, if not incentivize them to shorten games through gameplay mechanics, don't simply force the game to be over - players will exploit it or at the very least be forced to alter their strategies around it.
On May 12 2015 07:33 EleanorRIgby wrote: so negative, maybe wait to play with the new changes before being so overly critical.
What we are criticizing is the overall design. We don't want protoss to be even more dependent on the mothership core. In fact, I don't like the existence of the core at all. People said it countless times during the HOTS beta, but hero units you can only build one of have no place in SC2, those belong in Warcraft.
But if protoss was a race that could move out of their base without forfeiting it altogether, we wouldn't need it.
So, yes, we're being critical, but only because they're not addressing the basic problems, Blizz is treating the symptoms rather than the illness, if that makes it any clearer to you.
As a final update, we wanted to let you know more about the areas we’re testing internally.
We’re exploring ways to give more power to Terran bio play. We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe. We’re developing the new Terran unit We’re getting comfortable with the air unit we’ve been exploring. Here’s how it currently operates: Two attack modes: Fast movement with spash-damage vs air Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
Sure sounds like a Valkryie to me except it can land on the ground like a viking at the same time.
On May 12 2015 08:26 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: As a final update, we wanted to let you know more about the areas we’re testing internally.
We’re exploring ways to give more power to Terran bio play. We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe. We’re developing the new Terran unit We’re getting comfortable with the air unit we’ve been exploring. Here’s how it currently operates: Two attack modes: Fast movement with spash-damage vs air Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
Sure sounds like a Valkryie to me except it can land on the ground like a viking at the same time.
Am I the only one who doesn't think Terran needs another Transforming / Ability unit? It seems like every Terran unit has some kind of clicky ability now. I don't need another mobility killing transformation to deal with in my mech balls.
The modified stalemate detection seems reasonable for automated tournaments. I don't want to see it on ladder however, where games that players have invested an hour and a half into just end because blizzard thinks the game should be over...
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
Lol photon overcharge is irrelevant from mid game to late game. The fact that protoss army needs to be always complete composition to fight is already hard.. Terran and Z can just got drop or muta harass and leave and the protoss army isnt halfway there.
On May 12 2015 08:47 Terranist wrote: The new terran unit sounds exciting.
The modified stalemate detection seems reasonable for automated tournaments. I don't want to see it on ladder however, where games that players have invested an hour and a half into just end because blizzard thinks the game should be over...
Exactly, long games aren't a problem, long AND boring games are though. If you have to battle 2 hours with non stop action all over the map, that's pretty much the most awesome thing which can happen imo
On May 12 2015 09:07 -Kyo- wrote: How have you still not decided to fix cyclones or ravagers?
This is honestly pretty fucking silly at this point.
Well they just took ravagers out of the game, maybe a bit early too put them back. They still want to see more of the other zerg units I guess.
Hey, I would like to try that roach unit. Do you have any experience with that one? I only ever used infestors, swarm hosts and ravagers. I think there is still room to innovate with that unit. Any Vods I can watch to see that one in action?
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
Lol photon overcharge is irrelevant from mid game to late game. The fact that protoss army needs to be always complete composition to fight is already hard.. Terran and Z can just got drop or muta harass and leave and the protoss army isnt halfway there.
Crap! You're right!! If only Protoss had a flying unit that could drop units into other players bases as well!!
On May 12 2015 08:26 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: As a final update, we wanted to let you know more about the areas we’re testing internally.
We’re exploring ways to give more power to Terran bio play. We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe. We’re developing the new Terran unit We’re getting comfortable with the air unit we’ve been exploring. Here’s how it currently operates: Two attack modes: Fast movement with spash-damage vs air Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
Sure sounds like a Valkryie to me except it can land on the ground like a viking at the same time.
Should just add a Viking splash (Valkyrie) upgrade somewhere!
On May 12 2015 04:06 bObA wrote: Sounds like good but I am really not sure about splitting again mech ground and air upgrades for terran.
When you play tanks hellbats thors you need vikings and banshees.
That's absolutely not possible to play mech without air so their idea to play mech ground OR mech air is not viable
I would be fine with this if, and a fucking huge if, I didn't have to tech all the way to fusion core to get my cyclones to help shoot up. Thors are clunky and making one or two vs clumped air is fine, but yes either upgraded vikings or cyclones shooting up are absolutely necessary for mech. So maybe just requiring an armory and making the air upgrade for cyclones take twice as long or something would be more practical. Cause fusion cores are not something a ground meching player is going to want (without combined upgrades).
So they are finay gonna make another StarPort unit? Is this for real? Why do Terran need this? Single Tech tree for AIR? Same as Protoss? I suppose we need to get Medics back instead of Medivacs or make them "heal" only Mech units?
Interesting changes. Glad to see the Mothership not being forgotten. I think there's potential there.
Even the BL is getting some love o.O. Dunno how I feel about that route though, 11 range is pretty nice but I think I'd rather they just make the morph off of the muta combined with a new direction for the corruptor.
On May 12 2015 09:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Interesting changes. Glad to see the Mothership not being forgotten. I think there's potential there.
Even the BL is getting some love o.O. Dunno how I feel about that route though, 11 range is pretty nice but I think I'd rather they just make the morph off of the muta combined with a new direction for the corruptor.
I had this idea in my head of reworking the Corruptor to be anti light, and for corruption to be redesigned as a small splash spell that slowed down all bio units. This would serve as a genuinely reliable method of wresting away air control in ZvZ. Then you could reintroduce something thematically similar to the Devourer as a morph off of the Mutalisk that served as Zerg's anti armored and anti capital ship air-to-air attacker. But I like both the Ravager and the Lurker a lot, so I wouldn't want them to remove one of them in favor of this concept. Granted, the Devourer was a bit lame in BW, but it had an intriguing potential to its acid spores effect, and it looked soooo cool that I always wished it could've had more of a role in high-level gameplay.
On May 12 2015 07:33 EleanorRIgby wrote: so negative, maybe wait to play with the new changes before being so overly critical.
Everytthing sucks, everything is shit, Blizzard doesn't care anymore. *fires up CS:GO*.
To be fair, most people are very constructive. Some are just burned, I think, and want to see "Guys we make BW now again!!" to be happy about Blizzard's approach.
Warp Ins are not even half as close effective as bio drops and mutaballs going back n forth (unlimited times you want) not just 4 times ^_^
Wow calm down on those absolute statements. Way too many variables included to say it like that. You can certainly argue about effectiveness in certain situations, but not generalising like that.
Uhm... why aren't people talking as much about the Chargelot speed boost? That sounds pretty major to the mobility of the protoss army and its effectiveness (considering zealots are melee). And the ability to deal with harassment. And the ability to back away from a fight. And... well... everything.
On May 12 2015 09:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Interesting changes. Glad to see the Mothership not being forgotten. I think there's potential there.
Even the BL is getting some love o.O. Dunno how I feel about that route though, 11 range is pretty nice but I think I'd rather they just make the morph off of the muta combined with a new direction for the corruptor.
I had this idea in my head of reworking the Corruptor to be anti light, and for corruption to be redesigned as a small splash spell that slowed down all bio units. This would serve as a genuinely reliable method of wresting away air control in ZvZ. Then you could reintroduce something thematically similar to the Devourer as a morph off of the Mutalisk that served as Zerg's anti armored and anti capital ship air-to-air attacker. But I like both the Ravager and the Lurker a lot, so I wouldn't want them to remove one of them in favor of this concept. Granted, the Devourer was a bit lame in BW, but it had an intriguing potential to its acid spores effect, and it looked soooo cool that I always wished it could've had more of a role in high-level gameplay.
We're almost totally on the same page, I think they should turn it into a lair tech devourer as well as play up its role as an aerial tank. Mayyybe give it some sort of Hive tech air-to-ground ability (plaguuu?!), but I'd settle for just having them move and shoot with a devastating debuff effect. Additionally, this sounds bizarre, but I think burrow could work on them as well. It'd make them better at evading opponent air superiority and would allow them to ambush quicker air units like mutas provided there's no detection around.
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On May 12 2015 11:29 Lobotomist wrote: So...eco changes?
I'd have more of an opinion about specific unit changes if i had a beta key
Yea for real... Where's my beta key?
And, where's the eco change...
Also for the auto-tourney, I have to say I agree on the time limit... Cause lets be real, who has the time to sit around for hours waiting for one person's game to finish, just so they can continue an already long tourney. I suppose it depends on how long the brackets are, but it's pretty understandable.
Also strats would develop around time and experienced gained, which I think would diversify overall play.
Think chess vs speed chess. Both legit.
I am COMPLETELY AGAINST max game limit for regular melee games on ladder.
Is there any unit in the Z arsenal that does damage vs. the Disruptor? If not, this doesn't help Zerg players
I'm curious to see how the MSC recall buff comes into play. It allows earlier aggression and harass right off the bat with an earlier escape plan. I was thinking having 3 MSCs at one's disposal over time might be OP - then couldn't think of a scenario where that might actually be helpful. Then again, I'm not a P player.
Fairly disappointed with most of these changes, I'm not really understanding the timid approach that Kim and the team are working with, the early parts of the beta should be a time to make bold design changes that could never be made in the middle of a released product, I feel like the last 2 balance updates are more then standard balance patches and not beta design changes.
Specifically buffs to the mothership which with the cloaking is..well it's just a unit that totally promotes death balling so pretty lost on that one, I mean why would you ever spread out away from the Mothership? Why not a buff to Gateway instead? I mean the Zealot thing is nice but Gateway is still undesirable and charge should just be turned into Zealot legs to REALLY help Zealots close in and benefit from micro (i.e. actually be able to micro against mines) O__o
I guess on a more positive note I do appreciate the slow but meaningful Lurker nerf and the updates on the new Terran unit are cool, seems pretty interesting and I'm pretty psyched to see the unit model.
Just praying that the team is spending 10X as much effort on making Protoss the race it should have been and still can be and not making Terran even more well designed then they already are.
Also super surprised the good ol' Ultralisk escaped the nerf bat, I don't want to have to keep playing against mech, I accept it, the 8 armor just isn't working lol or rebuff Marauders idk I'm Zerg and they are a step away from indestructible, a bit comical to see how bad it was in HOTS and how insanely strong it is now xD
On May 12 2015 12:08 FabledIntegral wrote: Lurker change is stupid. The problem is the range, nothing else, unless you consider extreme alterations.
Oh heey <3
edit: True, this might help though, I think more nerfs are on the table for the Lurker, not sure if they are going to mess with the range right away but I can definitely see a hp nerf.
On May 12 2015 12:08 FabledIntegral wrote: Lurker change is stupid. The problem is the range, nothing else, unless you consider extreme alterations.
Oh heey <3
edit: True, this might help though, I think more nerfs are on the table for the Lurker, not sure if they are going to mess with the range right away but I can definitely see a hp nerf.
But man now they are weaker against light, hard counters are the way to go, such fun!! /s
The longer the beta goes the more it seems its going to be hard counter central
On May 12 2015 12:08 FabledIntegral wrote: Lurker change is stupid. The problem is the range, nothing else, unless you consider extreme alterations.
Oh heey <3
edit: True, this might help though, I think more nerfs are on the table for the Lurker, not sure if they are going to mess with the range right away but I can definitely see a hp nerf.
But man now they are weaker against light, hard counters are the way to go, such fun!! /s
The longer the beta goes the more it seems its going to be hard counter central
Idk, from what I'm seeing this should just make them slightly less broken vs. bio at least, yea they are weaker against light but from where they were that's a good thing lol
On May 12 2015 12:08 FabledIntegral wrote: Lurker change is stupid. The problem is the range, nothing else, unless you consider extreme alterations.
Oh heey <3
edit: True, this might help though, I think more nerfs are on the table for the Lurker, not sure if they are going to mess with the range right away but I can definitely see a hp nerf.
But man now they are weaker against light, hard counters are the way to go, such fun!! /s
The longer the beta goes the more it seems its going to be hard counter central
Idk, from what I'm seeing this should just make them slightly less broken vs. bio at least, yea they are weaker against light but from where they were that's a good thing lol
Its actually funny tho, zerg is the race with the least +bonus damage of all races, so its not like all this counter mechanic is that necesary.
Its not a bad change it won,t make as much a diference, 20 damage with 9 range and splash is still really good vs light units. But still needs more changes.
Also no talk about the ultra yet, I wonder if they actually plan to carry out the 8 armor ultra.
The lack of economy changes (or even mention of economy changes) is really disappointing. It feels like Blizzard has made up it's mind on the current 100/60 model, which after playing the LotV beta I really don't like.
I have to admit, all of the changes so far are making me like the direction of LotV less and less. I'll undoubtably buy it for the campaign and to try it out for awhile, but at this rate rather than the revolution SC2 needs LotV is looking to be the final nail in it's coffin.
A few more patches to go and everything in this game will have the speed of zerglings on creep and/or tempest range. 'cause clearly, making everything go faster and shoot further is the solution to everything.
I think it's a little early to get too passionate about the changes, it's just one more experiment.
Still, I'm disappointed with their work on Protoss, in terms of general design. But maybe it's just an old BW player talking.
I personally don't like the core and the mothership, they feel like band-aid units for design issues, and I don't like the fact they just keep adding activated ability after activated ability (or spells) to all protoss units. They're just turning them into a "click at the right time blah blah or die". And of course, instead of working on addressing any of those issues, or tweaking units like the immortals without the usual "let's add an activated ability" solution, they're spending more time designing a new unit for terrans, which balance aside is the most complete race by far.
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
I was under the impression that the speed buff was part of charge (as charge increases base movement speed already). But either way, it's in addition to charge. You're acting as if it's either/or.
It literally makes your army faster if its composed of zealots. How anyone could think a small speed buff to a basic unit "makes no difference" is beyond me. It's a serious buff to gateway units and you just dismissed it out of hand.
I don't really like any of this. The zealot speed change is only good if they remove charge I think, but then they should probably go up to 3.25 or 3.375. Lurkers, I don't know about that, lurkers typically 2 shot marines in SC and in SC2 you want them to take three now? I don't like where all this is going. Brood Lord change seems good, I'll say that. Now improve the speed from 1.40625 to either 1.875 like BCs and Carriers or maybe 1.6875 to go a good 60% of the way.
On May 12 2015 13:15 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I don't really like any of this. The zealot speed change is only good if they remove charge I think, but then they should probably go up to 3.25 or 3.375. Lurkers, I don't know about that, lurkers typically 2 shot marines in SC and in SC2 you want them to take three now? I don't like where all this is going. Brood Lord change seems good, I'll say that. Now improve the speed from 1.40625 to either 1.875 like BCs and Carriers or maybe 1.6875 to go a good 60% of the way.
lol. Your post reeks of Zerg bias. Lurkers already shred marines, taking 3 hits will hardly make a difference, Z is already the strong race in the beta.
On May 12 2015 13:15 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I don't really like any of this. The zealot speed change is only good if they remove charge I think, but then they should probably go up to 3.25 or 3.375. Lurkers, I don't know about that, lurkers typically 2 shot marines in SC and in SC2 you want them to take three now? I don't like where all this is going. Brood Lord change seems good, I'll say that. Now improve the speed from 1.40625 to either 1.875 like BCs and Carriers or maybe 1.6875 to go a good 60% of the way.
lol. Your post reeks of Zerg bias. Lurkers already shred marines, taking 3 hits will hardly make a difference, Z is already the strong race in the beta.
How daft of you. I didn't say anything about zerg not being strong in the beta. I didn't say "keep ravagers exactly as they are, nydus worms immortal and buff all these other things". If it were terrible bias, why would I suggest that zealots have MORE of a speed upgrade if charge is removed? I just fear the lurker being brought in only to be nerfed in a way that makes it too weak to one of the key things it has been historically used against (marines). Well micromanaged marines can tear shit up in both games. If you make lurker more expensive than they were in SC1 (they're 150/150 now) but make them take 3 hits to kill marines instead of the 2 in SC1, yes, it's a different game, but I fear bio forces will be too good against lurkers cost for cost. Yes, I'm aware there's little point to go bio RIGHT NOW, I'm rather hoping they'll fix that (cyclones have a long way to go still before they are interesting or balanced). I'll note that Lurkers do also have more life now, but they're zerg units, so who knows, maybe Blizz will decide they shouldn't because it's "not zergish enough".
You actually could maintain the same relationship with the 45 hit points marines of SC2, if SC combat shield were not there, by having lurkers deal 23. --_ SC1/SC2 = hits 40÷20 &45÷23 =2: No upgrades = 2 hits 40÷19 &45÷22 =2: 1 infantry armour = 3 hits 40÷21 &45÷24 =2: 1 infantry armour but 1 missile attack for lurkers = 2 hits --- Fact is, combat shield are there. For the same nice relationship to exist, they'd need to deal 28 to marines (with no upgrades on either side).
taking 3 hits will hardly make a difference
You know marines can split up into small groups? Lurkers are meant to be quite good for defending bases against them. 50% more hits required is pretty fucking massive, though apparently you disagree, but maybe you're only imagining lurkers big engagements where a terran goes Leeroy Jenkins into a possibly more expensive amount of lurkers when there are high numbers of each. Yeah, duh. Of course when you have a lot of them it matters less. Splash that doesn't rely on energy is like that.
On May 12 2015 13:15 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I don't really like any of this. The zealot speed change is only good if they remove charge I think, but then they should probably go up to 3.25 or 3.375. Lurkers, I don't know about that, lurkers typically 2 shot marines in SC and in SC2 you want them to take three now? I don't like where all this is going. Brood Lord change seems good, I'll say that. Now improve the speed from 1.40625 to either 1.875 like BCs and Carriers or maybe 1.6875 to go a good 60% of the way.
lol. Your post reeks of Zerg bias. Lurkers already shred marines, taking 3 hits will hardly make a difference, Z is already the strong race in the beta.
How daft of you. I didn't say anything about zerg not being strong in the beta. I didn't say "keep ravagers exactly as they are, nydus worms immortal and buff all these other things". If it were terrible bias, why would I suggest that zealots have MORE of a speed upgrade if charge is removed? I just fear the lurker being brought in only to be nerfed in a way that makes it too weak to one of the key things it has been historically used against (marines). Well micromanaged marines can tear shit up in both games. If you make lurker more expensive than they were in SC1 (they're 150/150 now) but make them take 3 hits to kill marines instead of the 2 in SC1, yes, it's a different game, but I fear bio forces will be too good against lurkers cost for cost. Yes, I'm aware there's little point to go bio RIGHT NOW, I'm rather hoping they'll fix that (cyclones have a long way to go still before they are interesting or balanced). I'll note that Lurkers do also have more life now, but they're zerg units, so who knows, maybe Blizz will decide they shouldn't because it's "not zergish enough".
You actually could maintain the same relationship with the 45 hit points marines of SC2, if SC combat shield were not there, by having lurkers deal 23. --_ SC1/SC2 = hits 40÷20 &45÷23 =2: No upgrades = 2 hits 40÷19 &45÷22 =2: 1 infantry armour = 3 hits 40÷21 &45÷24 =2: 1 infantry armour but 1 missile attack for lurkers = 2 hits --- Fact is, combat shield are there. For the same nice relationship to exist, they'd need to deal 28 to marines (with no upgrades on either side).
You know marines can split up into small groups? Lurkers are meant to be quite good for defending bases against them. 50% more hits required is pretty fucking massive, though apparently you disagree, but maybe you're only imagining lurkers big engagements where a terran goes Leeroy Jenkins into a possibly more expensive amount of lurkers when there are high numbers of each. Yeah, duh. Of course when you have a lot of them it matters less. Splash that doesn't rely on energy is like that.
Lurkers are above and beyond the most OP unit in the beta. They have 9 range. I'm not sure what world you live in where you say "mell microed marines do well against lurkers." They don't, at all, unless you're talking extremely small engagements.
On May 12 2015 13:15 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: I don't really like any of this. The zealot speed change is only good if they remove charge I think, but then they should probably go up to 3.25 or 3.375. Lurkers, I don't know about that, lurkers typically 2 shot marines in SC and in SC2 you want them to take three now? I don't like where all this is going. Brood Lord change seems good, I'll say that. Now improve the speed from 1.40625 to either 1.875 like BCs and Carriers or maybe 1.6875 to go a good 60% of the way.
lol. Your post reeks of Zerg bias. Lurkers already shred marines, taking 3 hits will hardly make a difference, Z is already the strong race in the beta.
Terran is to. Cyclones really good. In general these changes are kind of silly.
As a protoss i can agree with thre changes to the MSC recall, but 50 energy? that seems abit too little. Perhaps make it 75 ? Also increasing zealot speed? hmm, will it increase the speed at which they charge?
I don't really like the mass recall change. Might as well just add a nydus upgrade to nexus so Protoss can teleport their units one by one to other bases. Solves the problem of mobility between bases and not too overpowered like mass recall. We might even see some proxy nexus in the late late game to bring tier 3 units up front towards the opponent's base.
I can stand behind all other changes especially any nerfs to disrupter. I still don't get that unit.
On May 12 2015 11:20 halfaspider wrote: Would anybody miss them if Blizz just took removed mines, oracles, and SH?
I would definitely miss mines. I wouldn't miss mine drops which are possibly the most annoying thing on this planet but widow mines in general are fine.
Agree with the other two, SH have no place in the game right now. Oracle I would prefer if they just re-worked it so that it was basically a stargate observer with a little bit of utility (i.e. remove attack, reduce costs of other abilities).
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
On May 12 2015 11:20 halfaspider wrote: Would anybody miss them if Blizz just took removed mines, oracles, and SH?
I don't mind WoL with LotV economy. TRUE will win any ZvT.
Can someone cure my ignorance that why having multiple arbiters in Broodwar with mass recall is not OP?
Too much gas in PvZ, you'll just get run over be Zerglings with the recalls.
In PvT that is exactly what P tries to do lategame. T tries to stop them by planting huge spider mine fields within their bases and at target recall spots, as well as placing science vessels across those paths to use EMP on the arbiters. Also, there are MASS missile turrets across the map to prevent the Arbiters from flying.
On May 12 2015 15:13 theRayeGun wrote: I don't really like the mass recall change. Might as well just add a nydus upgrade to nexus so Protoss can teleport their units one by one to other bases. Solves the problem of mobility between bases and not too overpowered like mass recall. We might even see some proxy nexus in the late late game to bring tier 3 units up front towards the opponent's base.
I can stand behind all other changes especially any nerfs to disrupter. I still don't get that unit.
This reminds me of imperial guard in the original dawn of war :D. the army was slow and the core units were rather weak, so you could transport units through buildings to compensate for that. Setting up for and coming from transport was taking some time (10-20 seconds?), but you could save up units in some kind of buffer and then release them where needed.
I think blizzard is being dumb. In chess, complexity arises out of simplicity. Right now blizzard is trying to make things complex w/o realizing their game is already complex and needs simple answers.
In my opinion 30 minutes is a bit short of a hard cap for tournament games. Seems like I regularly have games going at least 20 minutes unless theres alot of early pressure.
All of the other changes I pretty much agree with. Recall change might be a bit much though. Will have to try it out myself.
I have the feeling zerg will be trash before the game even goes live. Enjoy being balanced while you can friends.
Beside the lurker, I am not sure about the stalemate timer thingy. Long games don't happen that often and when they do happen it's because of mech. Of course mech will always have more XP because of its super cost effective units, so here you got another terran buff.Terran is already strong and they want to make it even stronger (lol spash damage air? Really?)
Protoss will still get shat on once people know how to split against disruptors and again the whole race relies on gimmicky units (mothership core buff, disruptor, stasis) instead of being completely redesigned.
I don't like how blizzard isn't just fucking buffing gateway units directly (not properly anyway, the zealot change is silly as sc2john pointed out), like they are all scared of protoss starting to 7gate left and right. It's like they aren't even aware that a) any warpgate timing is massively nerfed by the 12 worker start and b) their economic model is designed specifically to encourage people to attack and transition while massively nerfing all-ins, further making two base all-ins pretty bad at best.
They have a lot of room to finally change protoss from the silly idea of the high tech expensive units being core and gateway units being mostly support, but they aren't doing anything about it. Seriously, get away from the gimmicky stargate or robo tech or whatever, and balance protoss around stalker/zealot/adept+situational support tech units PLEASE
On May 12 2015 18:23 Highways wrote: I don't mind the teleport, it means Protoss can move out and poke around. Currently they only move out when they have a deathball.
The bigger issue is why no economy changes?? Double harvest model??
Why no economy changes? Because DH (or at least the best kind of DH, DH8) is clearly not what they are searching for. LotV is taking the direction of a game whose goal is to have games that are fast-paced, quickly over, not forgiving, featuring big armies and many spells/abilities to make micro exciting (for the viewer), and with constant action from both sides (there's a high chance that these goal won't be reached, but w/e), which implies a lack of asymetry in the way the game plays out (no mobile vs immobile, no cheap units vs expensive units, no many units vs few units, etc). DH, while it can be made more adequate to the LotV idea by tweaking numbers, is at its core a system that favors the opposite : asymetric compositions, more forgiving to mistakes, slower-paced, longer games in general, smaller armies, etc.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
yeah I hate that too. "Design"... Toss is really the only race that can push anytime due to Warpgate, where you don't have to worry how your army moves over the map (just warp in the face of the opponent) etc etc. While other mechanics prevent it from being imba, I still hate it that these basic strategic decisions are not required as toss. Oh and you finally move out, see the opponent is superior? Just recall. Oh you catch the opponent off-guard (cause he can't be everywhere), just do ridiculous amounts of damage and then recall. I hate that a race can be so "cowardy"... Yeah, and I am not complaining about balance here, but about the design
On May 12 2015 19:45 Highways wrote: If Blizzard fixes these 3 things I'll be happy.
Fix economy To encourage expanding
Fix warpgate Design issue. A lot of protoss games they win easily or lose easily. Not much back and forth action.
Remove colossus Boring a-move unit. Protoss needs a skillful AOE unit. Collosus is sooo boring to watch and no skill to play.
1)I think they are trying really hard on this 2) Warpgate, as one of the designs that make the game too volatile. It should either way go back to BW stages, and of course the units out of the warpgate can then be a little stronger again, or it should only work for "light" units or so (for harassement purposes. Like Zealots) 3)couldn't agree more. Especially in deathball-games, colossus and HT is just so damn boring. Additions
I also think the orbital is a stupidly designed unit: can outrun and outmaneuvre everything, has guaranteed kills... I hate that Protoss is so cheesy/full of possible BS builds. I hate that you don't know what to prepare for sometimes, even if you scout like a madman. Some maps are so big you miss hidden stuff and you can't search everywhere. Also some allins aren't really allins and there is way too often an easy transition out of it if it fails - so it should get more punished if it fails.
Terran: Make the old tank again. Remove the Sieged-Tank-Drop-Ability. Or make the Tank +Shield damage, in order to be more effective in TvP Widow Mine.... is a stupidly designed unit. Way too random if it does damage or not. Terran is a race that is all about control, adding a unit that has very random effect if it hits or doesn't is stupid. Give the reaper something that makes him useful in the midgame as well. At this moment its almost a pure scouting unit.
Zerg:make tech paths harder to achieve. Especially in ZvT: when the Terran finally has the right composition or counter to the zergs units, and after a costy trade the zerg morphs in the complete hardcounter of what the terran has on the field. Even though the game before was basically even, this is a "buildorder win" midgame. Especially in TvZ with T playing Mech and Zerg just switching to mutas or whatever. Banelings should get more then 0.5 supply. Remove anything that spawns free units.
In general: remove the volatile design of some units and abilities: they shouldn't just either win you the game (or do lots of damage) or don't do damage at all. Maybe Blizz should reconsider the damage output again. After 10-15 Minutes of constant trading and having a close game with the opponent, sometimes 1 fight that only lasts 2 seconds decides all. These anticlimatic endings are boring to watch (as eSport-Games) and frustrating to play (on ladder).
Nobody is scaired by the description of the new terran unit ? A fast unit that deals AOE dmg, and after deals heavy dmg on the ground ? Why terrans always has the fastest units of the game, and when it's slow, medivac can carry it lol.
Of couse no idea of how it cost, how good is it, but i'm definetly a bit concerned about this annoncement.
On May 12 2015 20:59 Tyrhanius wrote: Nobody is scaired by the description of the new terran unit ? A fast unit that deals AOE dmg, and after deals heavy dmg on the ground ? Why terrans always has the fastest units of the game, and when it's slow, medivac can carry it lol.
Of couse no idea of how it cost, how good is it, but i'm definetly a bit concerned about this annoncement.
Terran having the fastest units in the game? You and your Zerg avatar: did you ever research zergling speed. Because with Zergling speed, thes freaking things can outran CARS (Hellions). Mutas are so fast, that you cannot catch them even when stimmed. The only time Terran is fast is a couple of secs with medivac-boost. But lets hope there is nothing under the medivacs when boost is done or mutas don't follow the medivacs...
Roaches currently almost outrun Terran units WHEN BURROWED.
"Terran always having fastest units" gotta be kidding me.
On May 12 2015 09:55 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Interesting changes. Glad to see the Mothership not being forgotten. I think there's potential there.
Even the BL is getting some love o.O. Dunno how I feel about that route though, 11 range is pretty nice but I think I'd rather they just make the morph off of the muta combined with a new direction for the corruptor.
I had this idea in my head of reworking the Corruptor to be anti light, and for corruption to be redesigned as a small splash spell that slowed down all bio units. This would serve as a genuinely reliable method of wresting away air control in ZvZ. Then you could reintroduce something thematically similar to the Devourer as a morph off of the Mutalisk that served as Zerg's anti armored and anti capital ship air-to-air attacker. But I like both the Ravager and the Lurker a lot, so I wouldn't want them to remove one of them in favor of this concept. Granted, the Devourer was a bit lame in BW, but it had an intriguing potential to its acid spores effect, and it looked soooo cool that I always wished it could've had more of a role in high-level gameplay.
Hive upgrade to make corruption give the following effect: units affected will deal x% of the damage to nearby air units. Viper spell removed. (although this seems quite spammy)
On May 12 2015 20:59 Tyrhanius wrote: Nobody is scaired by the description of the new terran unit ? A fast unit that deals AOE dmg, and after deals heavy dmg on the ground ? Why terrans always has the fastest units of the game, and when it's slow, medivac can carry it lol.
Of couse no idea of how it cost, how good is it, but i'm definetly a bit concerned about this annoncement.
Terran having the fastest units in the game? You and your Zerg avatar: did you ever research zergling speed. Because with Zergling speed, thes freaking things can outran CARS (Hellions). Mutas are so fast, that you cannot catch them even when stimmed. The only time Terran is fast is a couple of secs with medivac-boost. But lets hope there is nothing under the medivacs when boost is done or mutas don't follow the medivacs...
Roaches currently almost outrun Terran units WHEN BURROWED.
"Terran always having fastest units" gotta be kidding me.
Lol, i not really talking about the speed value, but the strategic mobility of Terran army.
Can Zerg be in Terran base ? Nearly never happen except big bust/all-in or a fail when Terran don't rise his depot. Medivac ? Just can go everywhere in zerg base. The only WALL Zerg have against drop is mutas, and any pre-mutas drop is just a paintfull attempt where zerg try with some slow queen/spores to get the fastest thing which fly, can go top/down, load/unload, and do free dmg without risk if well controled.
Make a hard counter to mutas, and you sure T can just be everywhere in zerg base, while zerglings/roach despite their high speed value, never surprised Terran, as they come by the walled door. Sure you have nyndus now, but you have 20s to prepare, while drop is nearly instant and can be the windrop, and you just boost vs static defence, like there is nothing.
Look at Hots at this moment : TvT : doom drop, outposition, TvP : drop/outposition, TvZ fortunatly with the mutas don't have this volatility, and is the most appreciated MU.
You'r trouble with mutas is far less concerning, compared to what Z/P and even T experiment vs drophip. So given a AOE units that could provide the Air suppremacy vs mutas/phoenix/vikings is really scairy considering the strengh of medivac which could bring tank/bio/hellbat anywhere on the map, and give banshee free way to hit.
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about.
For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations.
But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good.
I don't really get it since I don't play protoss. When does the Zealot get the speed boost? Is it after researching the Zealot leg? And isn't the normal zealot's speed 2.25?
On May 12 2015 22:41 bhfberserk wrote: I don't really get it since I don't play protoss. When does the Zealot get the speed boost? Is it after researching the Zealot leg? And isn't the normal zealot's speed 2.25?
Yup, the upgrade gives both the zealot charge and a (smallish) passive speed buff, which should be now not so small.
On May 12 2015 22:41 bhfberserk wrote: I don't really get it since I don't play protoss. When does the Zealot get the speed boost? Is it after researching the Zealot leg? And isn't the normal zealot's speed 2.25?
Yup, the upgrade gives both the zealot charge and a (smallish) passive speed buff, which should be now not so small.
Oh yea, I just checked! I honestly never realize there was a passive buff. But now 2.9 (same as zergling). Seems like an interesting buff and much more significant upgrade. Blizzard is slow, but they are addressing Gateway units. (Which is what the community wants.)
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about.
For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations.
But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good.
If zealots cant outrun stimmed bio and lings (which they cant with the buff) you can buff them all you want but you won't be able to retreat with them.
On May 13 2015 00:00 PVJ wrote: Can someone get Blizzard to swap BW & SC2 tanks as mentioned in the flash interview?
For that you need to put an end to the game of mass resources/production, weaken creep speed bonus/alter Zerg mobility so that Zerg ground armies can engage offcreep normally, kill hardcounters, tone down total maneuvarability somehow, bash Medivac boost, most likely restore overkill—all of that while convincing the angry mob that you're simply trying to improve SC2. Vast program!
recall? 50 thats like an insta turret in itself, just quickly bring them back, warp in EVEN MORE and go again a minute later . . dont worry ull probably have 2 nexi cannons ready at home as well if u really dont want to lose anything at all
as for the zealot, ye make em stronger, not game ending at all when they warp in 12 at a time . . now they just get their even faster and just as cheap
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
Lol photon overcharge is irrelevant from mid game to late game. The fact that protoss army needs to be always complete composition to fight is already hard.. Terran and Z can just got drop or muta harass and leave and the protoss army isnt halfway there.
Crap! You're right!! If only Protoss had a flying unit that could drop units into other players bases as well!!
On May 12 2015 08:26 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: As a final update, we wanted to let you know more about the areas we’re testing internally.
We’re exploring ways to give more power to Terran bio play. We’re trying new ability ideas for the Raven’s PDD and Ghost’s Snipe. We’re developing the new Terran unit We’re getting comfortable with the air unit we’ve been exploring. Here’s how it currently operates: Two attack modes: Fast movement with spash-damage vs air Can enter a stationary-mode where it changes to attack vs ground. This attack targets an area where any units within that area receive high single-target damage.
Sure sounds like a Valkryie to me except it can land on the ground like a viking at the same time.
Should just add a Viking splash (Valkyrie) upgrade somewhere!
That's blasphemy, you're thinking like an intelligent individual that wants to see balance and Brood War'ish aspects, that is not what Blizzard wants
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about.
For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations.
But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good.
If zealots cant outrun stimmed bio and lings (which they cant with the buff) you can buff them all you want but you won't be able to retreat with them.
Everything isn't black or white, so even if they are still slower, they will have a somewhat easier time escaping.
More relevant, are you taking into account that faster movement speed is an indirect nerf to kitiing? Thus, Zealots will perform better during engagements.
The zealot buff is badly needed. With the introduction of lurkers, LOTV is going to be an even more hostile environment for zealots, which are already really weak in HOTS which added widow mines and hellbats. But those aren't even needed, because upgraded barracks and hatchery tech are enough to dominate upgraded protoss gateway tech. Hopefully, this will make zealots stronger against marauders (kiting with stim and slow) and roaches (with this buff, they are roughly the same speed after upgrades). Ideally zealot-based armies could be spammed in much the same way marine/marauder or roach/hydra can be.
I don't find the disruptor to be very appealing compared to reavers but at least it's better than the colossus. It does seem like it could be rendered useless by splitting, and disruptor drops look like they could be broken even worse than hellbat drops. Those issues aside, I feel like if psi storm was nudged up in damage to the point where it could reliably kill widow mines and hydralisks I'd be pretty happy with protoss.
This mothership buff makes no sense what so ever. Buffing zealot upgrade to improve the gateway units isn´t solving any early game difficulties. I don´t like the focus on the Mc, it´s such an important unit, that it´s hit or miss, nothing inbetween. The possibilty of teleporting up to 4 times is making it even more important and resulting in even less strategic decisions for the player. Plus: - no ladder ( great, so nobody is even playing) - no words on economy changes
Well at least they know how to praise the incredible and time consuming process of changing the timer after a bunch of years. :D "we’d like to inquire once more on the in-game clock changing to real time" ,
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about.
For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations.
But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good.
I'm a Zerg player kthxbye.
My "points" are basically thoughts on why I think the change may or may not be good, I was never trying to prove any points. Please read. The issue I have with buffing zealot move speed after charge is that (again, in HotS terms since I have no frame of reference in the LotV format) they are becoming a situational unit mostly for harassment; at that point, the zealots are either just warping in directly from a warp prism or moving across the map opposite to the main army. A small buff to movement speed does nothing to support that role.
On the other hand, if the game is stuck in the mid game with the LotV economy, a buff to move speed might be quite significant. I still think it's an incorrect fix (targeting the incorrect problem), but I'm not saying that it has no potential for helping Protoss.
On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases.
I'd actually like to see this.
I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point.
HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases.
I'd actually like to see this.
I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point.
HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
I've always wished they'd have balanced Protoss around warp-in Storms, since it was in my opinion the most exciting and unique style of Protoss play, but I have no idea about the difficulties involved in doing so. Ultimately I have to trust that game designers know how to do their jobs.
On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases.
I'd actually like to see this.
I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point.
HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
I've always wished they'd have balanced Protoss around warp-in Storms, since it was in my opinion the most exciting and unique style of Protoss play, but I have no idea about the difficulties involved in doing so. Ultimately I have to trust that game designers know how to do their jobs.
Because it would be like hellbat drops, all the game would be about negating storm drops.
It maybe exciting for protoss players but you have to remember you are playing against someone, the game has to be fun for both attacker and defender.
On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases.
I'd actually like to see this.
I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point.
HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
This actually got me thinking, Blizzard could make it so instead of Warp Gate units having a set Warp-in time of 5 seconds and have a cooldown, which is their (build time,) they could make it so all Warp Gate units have the same cooldown, but different Warp-in times.
So instead of: Cooldown: Zealot: 28 Adept: 28 (I think) Sentry: 32 Stalker: 32 High Templar: 45 Dark Templar: 45 Warp in time: 5
They could make it: Cooldown: 30 Warp in time: Zealot: 3 Adept: 3 Sentry: 7 Stalker: 7 High Templar: 13 Dark Templar: 13
This way the units scale more in how immediate they can be of service and you could reintroduce stuff like Khaydarin Amulet, as a 13 second Warp in time would make it not broken.
On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases.
I'd actually like to see this.
I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point.
HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
I've always wished they'd have balanced Protoss around warp-in Storms, since it was in my opinion the most exciting and unique style of Protoss play, but I have no idea about the difficulties involved in doing so. Ultimately I have to trust that game designers know how to do their jobs.
Because it would be like hellbat drops, all the game would be about negating storm drops.
It maybe exciting for protoss players but you have to remember you are playing against someone, the game has to be fun for both attacker and defender.
I totally agree with this, and I just want to add that having my probes blown up by widow mines is the most fun I have had in HotS.
Blizzards approach just makes me so sad. Removing stasis ward manual cast is so moronic. What it does is punish slopiness but make it 100% useless vs someone who knows the spell exists, since you can just trigger it with a ling. Mothershit core was a bandaid from the start so why are they adding more bandaids to it. If they want to avoid deathball play (I don't even mind deathball play in itself) then why make a special unit that's one per customer and is crucial to your race. I hate how they keep trying to "fill a hole" for terrans, just because something is hard to deal with for one race doesn't make it bad design that should be changed or anything. If they want SC2 to be a fancy pants game with lots of expansions and shit, then the simplest and most obvious first step HAS to be to nerf harrassment options. You can take a lot of bases fast when you need 10 turrets to keep each of them safe from mutas, you can't take bases fast when medivacs can fly past turrets and not give a shit, you can't take bases fast when 20 zealots can just appear anywhere on the map. Bleh don't even have the motivation to write a big ass rant.
On May 13 2015 03:12 HellHound wrote: If they want SC2 to be a fancy pants game with lots of expansions and shit, then the simplest and most obvious first step HAS to be to nerf harrassment options. You can take a lot of bases fast when you need 10 turrets to keep each of them safe from mutas, you can't take bases fast when medivacs can fly past turrets and not give a shit, you can't take bases fast when 20 zealots can just appear anywhere on the map. Bleh don't even have the motivation to write a big ass rant.
I think they don't even want that. They just use those phrases for pin-up measures. What they want is players quickly getting an army, getting into battle, fighting for a 3rd or 4th base, and then the game should be over in an average of 10mins. 10mins is lategame. 15mins is an epic battle. More than 15 is stale. They rather want many different short games than one game with a longterm strategy.
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about.
For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations.
But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good.
If zealots cant outrun stimmed bio and lings (which they cant with the buff) you can buff them all you want but you won't be able to retreat with them.
I'd rather it was just double the passive speed and immune to concussive with the upgrade. It would make them a microable unit vs now where i suppose you can manually charge/hold position vs terran trying to bait the charge and stutter step
Upgraded Zealot speed increased from 2.75 to 2.953
With the addition of the Adept, the Zealots role has been reduced in the later stages game. To adjust for this, we decided to make a mid/late game buff to Zealots that makes the Zealots be a more ideal choice in certain situations compared to the Adept. Alternatively, we could have toned down the effectiveness of the Adept, but overall we agree with the community opinion that Protoss isn’t as powerful as the other two races currently, so we felt this change was best.
Well by mid-late game Protoss usually has charge, so this change with their reasoning makes no sense. Charge is better for mid-late game than using this minor speed buff. Furthermore, this small speed buff makes no difference to someone who has good kiting.
Idea for you Blizz (free of charge this 1): Buff warpgate units and nerf warp-gate (both must happen together). I think you have heard from the community that we rather micro units (gateway units) , than rely on MSC or recall.
On face value, I do not value this change at all. Design-wise, it feels counterintuitive to buff the speed that zealots move after charge because 1) they have charge now, and 2) they are slowly becoming less and less effective as a main army unit and more useful for harassment by the time you research it (though this is admittedly not based on the LotV economy). It's a nonsensical change that buffs something that was already doing fine.
On the flip side, I think it can be seen as an extremely positive thing. First of all, higher movement speed means that they will stick better after charge against kiting comps, meaning that they WILL do more damage by getting in an extra few swipes per zealot. That's a big deal, and will make zealots substantially better at dealing with bio or roach/hydra/ravager on equal upgrades. Secondly, in the LotV economy (according to what I've seen and heard), the mid game continues on for quite a while with scrappy fights, so a buff to the zealot which would allow it more mobility and stickiness is actually quite good since zealots do very well in middlish numbers.
That said, it could go either way. I'm inclined to believe it's an unneeded buff which doesn't patch up core Protoss weaknesses (reminds me of the oracle changes in a way), but it could very well be a positive and dynamic change in LotV, especially with the changes to economy.
For your first point, if zealots are primarily for harassment (and defending harassment), then that's exactly what the movement speed would enhance. That's like what movement speed is all about.
For your second point, they will also be able to disengage from fights better if they have better movement speed. Being overall faster means a lot more than just some numbers in specific combat situations.
But then I'm a zerg player, so I understand that unit speed is a valuable asset. Apparently protoss players just want big clunky units that fight good.
If zealots cant outrun stimmed bio and lings (which they cant with the buff) you can buff them all you want but you won't be able to retreat with them.
I'd rather it was just double the passive speed and immune to concussive with the upgrade. It would make them a microable unit vs now where i suppose you can manually charge/hold position vs terran trying to bait the charge and stutter step
This. Exactly that.
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
The problema is a bout concussive shells and its use. Charge and Concussive Shells are meant to be "reciprocal" counters, but the true fact is that Concussive shells > Charge any day. Bio can stutterstep for days.
So if you buff Zealots vs Bio, you have to give bio something in exchange. THat's the problematic.
For the MSC change, I think that it is one of Blizzard's best ideas for SC2 to date. Recall has been massively underused for a long time and now it might see more use. I just wish that they nerf photon overcharge a little or put it on the nexus so Protoss can use if they wanna use chrono or that.
This mothership speed boost is one of the worst changes Blizzard has made since they removed vortex. It is already too strong. The mothership already makes Protoss incredibly imba as is. Why break the game with this buff? I say bring back Vortex so we can have more games like Mvp vs Squirtle Game 6.
Again about breaking the game, the Oracle Stasis forced auto cast will make Protoss essentially win the game as soon as they get out an oracle.
Oh look, first Blizzard wanted to get rid of Infestor-Broodlord and now they are trying to revive it. Broodlords were already imbalanced as all hell...I mean what units spawns free and unlimited free units? They should make it like the new swarm host.
Zealots are now faster? LOL Blizzard, what are you thinking? Do you want them to be more broken than they already are? They easily rip apart marines and Zerglings as is. Now they can walk faster which eliminates micro potential from the other tier 1 units.
Okay, why is Blizzard nerfing the Lurker? This is an unacceptable change? They were already pretty damn bad before, why make them into something unplayable?
Wow another unit for the Immortal to kill ~.~
Every single change on this patch makes no sense except for the mothership core one.
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge).
Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases.
its really due to the way blizz designed terran vs the other races. I think its a fix that they've needed for some time, and I prefer a consistent speed for lots vs the a move charge that exists now. I see it as an equivalent change, so I don't believe bio needs a buff to compensate.
While we've on the topic of micro possibilities, a manually activated charge for ultras would be nice so they're not so clunky to use and can actually close in. Blizz of course, decided to nerf the maurauder instead.
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge).
Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases.
It's excellent for establishing a punishment in that it nearly guarantees unit loss if a weaker army is caught out in a bad position by a superior bio force. There is micro involved with targeting Marauders on multiple different enemy units, in order to slow as many as possible and guarantee their death. Or you could be just sprinting one forward with some Marines to destroy a single enemy unit. It's silly to claim it doesn't add anything positive to the game, though it does indeed remove micro opportunities from the opponent.
That having been said, I believe it was originally unveiled in WoL alpha as intended to slow down approaching units, rather than prevent units from retreating. In general, a redesign that makes it easier to break off engagements without losing everything is probably going to be good for the game. A role that would better fit their original intention for the effect would be an upgrade that gives the concussion effect to Siege Tank shots, and allow its effects to target multiple units via splash. Mech has an issue with how easily units close the distance with tank lines, and this would greatly help against Chargelots, as well as Roaches. It would help a little bit against Archons and Immortals too, as well as Hydras, but those are less of the issue here. And of course, if the effect maintained its lack of effect on massive targets, then Archons wouldn't be affected at all.
gm 6x Terran player here chiming in on the economy. I'm at a loss for all the distaste from the community with blizzards approach to the economy. I've seen the arguments, but I can't agree with them. I think the 100/60% mineral is correct at the moment. I see the argument, (punished for not expanding) but I also believe that this sets a paradigm that forces a player to take a disadvantage when they opt for aggressive strategies, or risky play.
As players expand more, vulnerabilities open up in their base(s) as they try to spread them selves thin. Players have to have a greater understanding of what can happen at any given time and adapt to mitigate damage as more information from the opponent comes in ( scouting ). This is a good thing, the better players are able to adapt better than the lesser, and games will come to a conclusion much quicker when the skill gap is larger.
As a result of the economy change, strategies will become more distinguished in how they relate to a players economy. Aggressive strategies will feel the pain of opting for the extra units/tech to hurt their opponents by not having as many mineral fields in the coming minutes. A successful hold from a defensive player will have a stronger advantage ( in comparison to hots/wings) when they hold.
On May 13 2015 01:39 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If they reinstated Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss wouldn't need to teleport their deathball to defend their bases.
I'd actually like to see this.
I think all gateway units should be able to be produced from gateways but only a few should be able to be warped in. It won't completely fix everything, but I do think it's a good starting point.
HT being one of the gateway exclusive units with the amulet back for compensation. It'd be harder to reinforce offensively and spread them out on the map for storm flanks, but they'd be way better for defense and storm drops would be more common.
This actually got me thinking, Blizzard could make it so instead of Warp Gate units having a set Warp-in time of 5 seconds and have a cooldown, which is their (build time,) they could make it so all Warp Gate units have the same cooldown, but different Warp-in times.
So instead of: Cooldown: Zealot: 28 Adept: 28 (I think) Sentry: 32 Stalker: 32 High Templar: 45 Dark Templar: 45 Warp in time: 5
They could make it: Cooldown: 30 Warp in time: Zealot: 3 Adept: 3 Sentry: 7 Stalker: 7 High Templar: 13 Dark Templar: 13
This way the units scale more in how immediate they can be of service and you could reintroduce stuff like Khaydarin Amulet, as a 13 second Warp in time would make it not broken.
Just a thought.
I like part of this. I still think they need to have gateway exclusive units but having a flat cooldown while having the warp-in period vary with each unit is interesting. Perhaps that could be a softer alternative to having them take additional damage when warping in.
I think only Zealots, Stalkers, DTs, and Adepts should be allowed to be warped in with these warp-in times:
Of those 4 I think stalkers are the deadliest in terms of potential all-ins what with the range, speed, and especially blink. Therefore, they deserve the longest warp-in time. Zealots in contrast are a bit more manageable and could be made better for warp-in defense and harassment with warp prisms.
HT even with a 13s warp-in would probably still be too deadly with the amulet. It'd still be easy to spread them out on the map before engagements and flank with storm imo.
There is micro involved with targeting Marauders on multiple different enemy units, in order to slow as many as possible and guarantee their death.
Noone does that with the exception of very rare cases where you have one very guaranteed kill that is very close and instead opt to target a unit that is further away with the Mauruader. But that's a rare case.
And even then, it's not an interesting form of micro. IMO real micro is related to movement of units and abilities work great when they have an impact on how you move your units but when its just random spam clicks, it's absolute pointless. Concussive removes real micro from the game as it makes it less rewarded for the enemy to move untis around.
On May 13 2015 04:49 swag_bro wrote: I like some of the changes.
For the MSC change, I think that it is one of Blizzard's best ideas for SC2 to date. Recall has been massively underused for a long time and now it might see more use. I just wish that they nerf photon overcharge a little or put it on the nexus so Protoss can use if they wanna use chrono or that.
This mothership speed boost is one of the worst changes Blizzard has made since they removed vortex. It is already too strong. The mothership already makes Protoss incredibly imba as is. Why break the game with this buff? I say bring back Vortex so we can have more games like Mvp vs Squirtle Game 6.
Again about breaking the game, the Oracle Stasis forced auto cast will make Protoss essentially win the game as soon as they get out an oracle.
Oh look, first Blizzard wanted to get rid of Infestor-Broodlord and now they are trying to revive it. Broodlords were already imbalanced as all hell...I mean what units spawns free and unlimited free units? They should make it like the new swarm host.
Zealots are now faster? LOL Blizzard, what are you thinking? Do you want them to be more broken than they already are? They easily rip apart marines and Zerglings as is. Now they can walk faster which eliminates micro potential from the other tier 1 units.
Okay, why is Blizzard nerfing the Lurker? This is an unacceptable change? They were already pretty damn bad before, why make them into something unplayable?
Wow another unit for the Immortal to kill ~.~
Every single change on this patch makes no sense except for the mothership core one.
Get rid of concussive shells and give Protoss something that can deal with Zerglings. I think this opens up all sorts of new map types, unit types and interactions etc.
Zergling speed and Concussive shells are the reason Protoss can't be out on the map early in the same way the other races can. They limit our ability to retreat.
On May 13 2015 06:41 DinoMight wrote: Get rid of concussive shells and give Protoss something that can deal with Zerglings. I think this opens up all sorts of new map types, unit types and interactions etc.
Zergling speed and Concussive shells are the reason Protoss can't be out on the map early in the same way the other races can. They limit our ability to retreat.
You can adjust stats to rebalance afterwards.
I think giving back the sentry the single point of damage might give protoss what it needs to be able to combat speedlings.
Just unimpressed overall. Serious lack of imagination coming from the team so far
Also, their new air unit sounds like a Viking. Why not just make the Viking better in ground mode? There have been community suggestions already for this, even just speeding up transformation.
For the automated tournaments just disable mineral collection after X amount of time with a hard cut-off y minutes later. Forces players into fighting or else and doesn't punish eco advantages nearly as much.
Its sad that all the game and terran and zergs, have to be sacrificed for the reason of a bad designed race like Protoss since WoL, tryed to fix that bad design in HoTS with warping tech, and result worst, and now tryed to refix to LotV, is just more simple redesign protoss with competent people, and not still trying to fix that bad design sacrificing all the game to it. Blizzard should take the development seriously, and not just drop a bad product bcoz they want to sell it to christmas.
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post.
The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter.
First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough.
Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb.
I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro.
Remove Guardian Shield and give the Sentry an ability that encourages a Protoss to pay attention to his Zealots' position on the battlefield/shields/HP and manually target individual ones and move them around. Then, force a Protoss to cast it not once but 5 times over the course of an engagement just to be on par with another race. Then buff the Zealot's movement speed, which will be instrumental in using the Sentry's ability effectively. Players who can't micro and multitask will be appropriately screwed, players who can will be rewarded with another consistent way to get wins that doesn't rely on any surprises or gambles.
With one deft stroke, we've rebalanced the game, made Gateway compositions stronger, and introduced more micro/multitasking to Protoss units that previously had none.
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post.
The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter.
First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough.
Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb.
I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro.
Remove Guardian Shield and give the Sentry an ability that encourages a Protoss to pay attention to his Zealots' position on the battlefield/shields/HP and manually target individual ones and move them around. Then, force a Protoss to cast it not once but 5 times over the course of an engagement just to be on par with another race.Then buff the Zealot's movement speed, which will be instrumental in using the Sentry's ability effectively. Players who can't micro and multitask will be appropriately screwed, players who can will be rewarded with another consistent way to get wins that doesn't rely on any surprises or gambles.
With one deft stroke, we've rebalanced the game, made Gateway compositions stronger, and introduced more micro/multitasking to Protoss units that previously had none.
You mean like, replace Guardian Shield with a Shield Battery-esque ability?
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post.
The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter.
First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough.
Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb.
I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro.
Remove Guardian Shield and give the Sentry an ability that encourages a Protoss to pay attention to his Zealots' position on the battlefield/shields/HP and manually target individual ones and move them around. Then, force a Protoss to cast it not once but 5 times over the course of an engagement just to be on par with another race.Then buff the Zealot's movement speed, which will be instrumental in using the Sentry's ability effectively. Players who can't micro and multitask will be appropriately screwed, players who can will be rewarded with another consistent way to get wins that doesn't rely on any surprises or gambles.
With one deft stroke, we've rebalanced the game, made Gateway compositions stronger, and introduced more micro/multitasking to Protoss units that previously had none.
You mean like, replace Guardian Shield with a Shield Battery-esque ability?
Sure. "Recharge target unit's shields to full" with a set mana cost that punishes miscasting. That's one option.
Before LOTV was announced, I actually suggested an ability that turned Protoss units into mini-Disruptors, detonating a unit's shields to deal shields x1.5?2?3? damage. The unit might glow bright blue for a second or two first, giving T/Z time to counterplay to run away or bring down its shields. AOE on a core unit (split between two, actually), requiring micro, and allowing for counterplay.
Unfortunately, instead we got a high-tier Colossus replacement that does everything in its power to limit counterplay.
Why can't they just bring back the old seige tanks? That would solve some of the issues with Terran. Heck, even bring back the seige upgrade if necessary. I'd be willing to even let them increase the seige / unseige time.
On May 12 2015 03:50 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Well, I can definitely get behind those Protoss changes. I didn't even consider the possibility of abusing stasis that way though haha.
While I feel these are overall good changes, I'm a tad disappointed they aren't more...severe? Maybe this is just a tweak patch and we'll get a bigger one later this month. Still hoping Blizzard goes crazy with trying new things.
It also looks like they're pretty set on this silly half-patch economy. I gotta be honest, that might be a big deal breaker for me with LotV, I just hate how it makes games feel =/
Having said all that, the stuff about automated tournaments gets me really excited in my special place! 30 min cap on games for automated tournaments seems TOTALLY reasonable, we'll just have to see if "XP earned" is the best metric or not.
edit: WTF at people shitting on the Recall changes? Protoss sucks right now precisely because it's so friggin' hard to defend multiple bases as early as you need them in LotV. Do you really want Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/robo units to move as fast as stimmed bio/Zerg on creep? I prefer this solution, it's more Protoss-y and doesn't require a pretty big change to all other Protoss ground units.
This. Toss have fat units. Fat, lumbering units. They can't be expected to defend multiple bases at the same time with those units without the mamacore. If you don't want toss to tyrtle up every game and launch a deathball in your face every game then these changes should make you happy not the other way round. The changes here are a welcome addition to be honest.
In regards to the time cap Blizzard is considering to implement, God please do. Bye bye Terrans floating their buildings into dead airspace to force a draw in a game they should've lost e.g. THAT HerO game vs Polt owh the humanityyy.
I really am still not onvinced that these changes would help toss become at least on par with the other two races especially zerg but at least it is indeed a step in the right direction. Adept and Disruptors are still...somewhat unfulfilling...I mean this is the final expansion to the trilogy, the expansion for the Golden Armada...and all toss gets are a clunky one hit miss too expensive to even bother unit and a cool looking but a bit unpractical unit in the Adept. Maybe remove Colossus altogether and give Toss a new AoE unit? One can wish ^^ Anyways these are mostly welcomed changes...looking forward to the next update!^^
On May 12 2015 03:50 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Well, I can definitely get behind those Protoss changes. I didn't even consider the possibility of abusing stasis that way though haha.
While I feel these are overall good changes, I'm a tad disappointed they aren't more...severe? Maybe this is just a tweak patch and we'll get a bigger one later this month. Still hoping Blizzard goes crazy with trying new things.
It also looks like they're pretty set on this silly half-patch economy. I gotta be honest, that might be a big deal breaker for me with LotV, I just hate how it makes games feel =/
Having said all that, the stuff about automated tournaments gets me really excited in my special place! 30 min cap on games for automated tournaments seems TOTALLY reasonable, we'll just have to see if "XP earned" is the best metric or not.
edit: WTF at people shitting on the Recall changes? Protoss sucks right now precisely because it's so friggin' hard to defend multiple bases as early as you need them in LotV. Do you really want Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/robo units to move as fast as stimmed bio/Zerg on creep? I prefer this solution, it's more Protoss-y and doesn't require a pretty big change to all other Protoss ground units.
This. Toss have fat units. Fat, lumbering units. They can't be expected to defend multiple bases at the same time with those units without the mamacore. If you don't want toss to tyrtle up every game and launch a deathball in your face every game then these changes should make you happy not the other way round. The changes here are a welcome addition to be honest.
In regards to the time cap Blizzard is considering to implement, God please do. Bye bye Terrans floating their buildings into dead airspace to force a draw in a game they should've lost e.g. THAT HerO game vs Polt owh the humanityyy.
I really am still not onvinced that these changes would help toss become at least on par with the other two races especially zerg but at least it is indeed a step in the right direction. Adept and Disruptors are still...somewhat unfulfilling...I mean this is the final expansion to the trilogy, the expansion for the Golden Armada...and all toss gets are a clunky one hit miss too expensive to even bother unit and a cool looking but a bit unpractical unit in the Adept. Maybe remove Colossus altogether and give Toss a new AoE unit? One can wish ^^ Anyways these are mostly welcomed changes...looking forward to the next update!^^
Increase the Stalker hit radius by 1 while also increasing the blink cool time by 10 seconds. Change Zealot charge to movement speed increase by x2 at all times. Get rid of Colossus and bring in Reavers (make them heavy so phoenix cannot lift them). Problem fixed.
On May 12 2015 03:50 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Well, I can definitely get behind those Protoss changes. I didn't even consider the possibility of abusing stasis that way though haha.
While I feel these are overall good changes, I'm a tad disappointed they aren't more...severe? Maybe this is just a tweak patch and we'll get a bigger one later this month. Still hoping Blizzard goes crazy with trying new things.
It also looks like they're pretty set on this silly half-patch economy. I gotta be honest, that might be a big deal breaker for me with LotV, I just hate how it makes games feel =/
Having said all that, the stuff about automated tournaments gets me really excited in my special place! 30 min cap on games for automated tournaments seems TOTALLY reasonable, we'll just have to see if "XP earned" is the best metric or not.
edit: WTF at people shitting on the Recall changes? Protoss sucks right now precisely because it's so friggin' hard to defend multiple bases as early as you need them in LotV. Do you really want Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/robo units to move as fast as stimmed bio/Zerg on creep? I prefer this solution, it's more Protoss-y and doesn't require a pretty big change to all other Protoss ground units.
This. Toss have fat units. Fat, lumbering units. They can't be expected to defend multiple bases at the same time with those units without the mamacore. If you don't want toss to tyrtle up every game and launch a deathball in your face every game then these changes should make you happy not the other way round. The changes here are a welcome addition to be honest.
In regards to the time cap Blizzard is considering to implement, God please do. Bye bye Terrans floating their buildings into dead airspace to force a draw in a game they should've lost e.g. THAT HerO game vs Polt owh the humanityyy.
I really am still not onvinced that these changes would help toss become at least on par with the other two races especially zerg but at least it is indeed a step in the right direction. Adept and Disruptors are still...somewhat unfulfilling...I mean this is the final expansion to the trilogy, the expansion for the Golden Armada...and all toss gets are a clunky one hit miss too expensive to even bother unit and a cool looking but a bit unpractical unit in the Adept. Maybe remove Colossus altogether and give Toss a new AoE unit? One can wish ^^ Anyways these are mostly welcomed changes...looking forward to the next update!^^
Increase the Stalker hit radius by 1 while also increasing the blink cool time by 10 seconds. Change Zealot charge to movement speed increase by x2 at all times. Get rid of Colossus and bring in Reavers (make them heavy so phoenix cannot lift them). Problem fixed.
Seriously couldn't agree more with this, make blink less of an "in combat" ability, compensate with perhaps a damage or +1 range upgrade at twilight along with the hit radius change. Make zealots faster to able to spread out and defend multiple bases easier, and work the Adept in somewhere in there, let Protoss be mobile without some damn teleportation gimmick.
Reavers aren't going to happen, they put Disruptors in because they aren't putting Reavers in, Colossus should just be removed at this point and the Disruptor tuned appropriately.
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous!
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous!
Ladder doesnt matter
You say this. Many people say this.
And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage.
NOt only Zealots having the same speed than Bio would be really interesting, it would be a very big buff, and making battles more interesting.
I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge).
Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases.
Like I have suggested since WoL add a cooldown to Concussive Shell not something extreme but just enough to give the zealots a chance. It would make terrans stutter step micro less effective if they wasted all their shots on say the first 6-8 zealots leaving the other zealots to get more swipes in. I think this would be something neat to add to the game or test around with.
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous!
Ladder doesnt matter
You say this. Many people say this.
And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage.
Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player.
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous!
Ladder doesnt matter
You say this. Many people say this.
And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage.
Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player.
you don't need to be good, you can just randomly draw Jaedong and get rekt too.
I feel that I am getting to the point where I don't know what to believe in anymore with LotV. I don't think that being rushed to expand is fun. Protoss is still not being redesigned. There are certainly some things that i think are very fun, but there's a whole race and economy that makes me sad.
Perhaps I'd have better luck asking for an official starbow ladder? =/
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous!
Ladder doesnt matter
You say this. Many people say this.
And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage.
Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player.
you don't need to be good, you can just randomly draw Jaedong and get rekt too.
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous!
Ladder doesnt matter
You say this. Many people say this.
And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage.
Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player.
Wait, when people said "there is no ladder in LotV", I always assumed that there was no matchmaking. But they're complaining that they only got Unranked matchmaking and not ranked, is that it? If so, I'm a bit disappointed in the community. That's like a new level of ladder anxiety right there :D
Like I have suggested since WoL add a cooldown to Concussive Shell not something extreme but just enough to give the zealots a chance. It would make terrans stutter step micro less effective if they wasted all their shots on say the first 6-8 zealots leaving the other zealots to get more swipes in. I think this would be something neat to add to the game or test around with.
it's still bad though. Imagine scenarios where you target fire an Immortal wtih Concussive. Zero counterplay due to slow. Just scrap this and compensate the Maurauder in a different way if needed.
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post.
The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter.
First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough.
Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb.
I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro.
Remove Guardian Shield and give the Sentry an ability that encourages a Protoss to pay attention to his Zealots' position on the battlefield/shields/HP and manually target individual ones and move them around. Then, force a Protoss to cast it not once but 5 times over the course of an engagement just to be on par with another race.Then buff the Zealot's movement speed, which will be instrumental in using the Sentry's ability effectively. Players who can't micro and multitask will be appropriately screwed, players who can will be rewarded with another consistent way to get wins that doesn't rely on any surprises or gambles.
With one deft stroke, we've rebalanced the game, made Gateway compositions stronger, and introduced more micro/multitasking to Protoss units that previously had none.
You mean like, replace Guardian Shield with a Shield Battery-esque ability?
Sure. "Recharge target unit's shields to full" with a set mana cost that punishes miscasting. That's one option.
Before LOTV was announced, I actually suggested an ability that turned Protoss units into mini-Disruptors, detonating a unit's shields to deal shields x1.5?2?3? damage. The unit might glow bright blue for a second or two first, giving T/Z time to counterplay to run away or bring down its shields. AOE on a core unit (split between two, actually), requiring micro, and allowing for counterplay.
Unfortunately, instead we got a high-tier Colossus replacement that does everything in its power to limit counterplay.
While we don't want more a-move units nor buffs to them, I suspect protosses in general don't want even more typical click and re-use abilities like blink, force fields, storm etc. if they could instead have some passive buff that forces different movement or something else more interesting than button->click unit/area, button-click unit/area.
That said, if you go for a passive speed buff for zealots instead of charge (I agree with the idea, for more micro), I don't think you can go too high with it, certainly not double (4.5). If you bring it above stim speed AND by that much when zealots already have so many hit points, I believe stutter-stepping doesn't do so much to the zealots. Zerglings die a lot faster to marines than zealots do. . Could test it, but I doubt it'd be fair on the terran, cost-for-cost or effort-wise.
There is micro involved with targeting Marauders on multiple different enemy units, in order to slow as many as possible and guarantee their death.
Noone does that with the exception of very rare cases where you have one very guaranteed kill that is very close and instead opt to target a unit that is further away with the Mauruader. But that's a rare case.
And even then, it's not an interesting form of micro. IMO real micro is related to movement of units and abilities work great when they have an impact on how you move your units but when its just random spam clicks, it's absolute pointless. Concussive removes real micro from the game as it makes it less rewarded for the enemy to move untis around.
Dryads had the Slow Poison ability in WC3. They were almost the fastest unit in the game, but had relatively low damage. The poison also did not stack. I liked the unit a lot since you were encouraged to stack the poison on multiple units, which is very difficult micro and you could do hit and run attacks together with your hero. There was a lot of counterplay because it was weak to ranged units and to ensnare from raiders, and the damage was low enough you could often scare off dryads before they killed anything or even use a scroll of town portal to escape. (though note that dryads used to be completely broken before the nerf and that every player would mass the unit at the exclusion of everything else, so it shows how dangerous such an ability is).
Marauders are a lot different. You never divide the targeting like you said, so that micro is non-existent. And building marauders doesn't impact your army strength negatively, so the power of the slow is not counteracted by a decrease in damage output. And units die quickly in SC2 so that even a short slow on a ranged unit is significant (maybe a crippling attack on a melee unit like the ultralisk is interesting for the game though?). In practice concussive shell mainly exists to punish protoss players from trying to take map control and it's one of the culprits that made Blizzard recall as a protoss core ability. It should be removed from the game, since it doesn't even do a good job in differentiating the marauder and marine units.
I think this is another example of Blizzard adapting abilities from other games without really understanding the underlying structural issues that make abilities function properly.
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment.
Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another.
There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate:
Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??)
Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay.
But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors.
Think about it......
The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post.
The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter.
First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough.
Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb.
I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro. .
That shows a serious misconception from your game perception.
Every unit with limited mobility and microability (responsiveness) or very limited micro is doomed to be an "A-move". By giving speed and responsiveness you get Kiting and dynamic splitting, but they are still "A-moves" that only move and shot. For example, TvP when the Protoss has no splash is an A-move game from Terran (I can beat you, I press T and A-move into you). ZvP Roach Hydra is about positioning and A-moving Roaches, Lings and Hydras, Hellbats are about A-moving too, and maxed Toss with 5 colossus is A-moving too. A big part of the game is positioning and A-moving one army into another, as in many RTS games. You don't need fancy abilities for micro to happen; this is not a MOBA.
Every Meele/Short range unit is a false "A-move unit" Zerglings, banelings, Zealots, Ultralisks, but also Hellbats and Archons, since you need to maximize their potential mobility for the engage. In order to get them to be effective at max, you have to pre-split them before engaging, increasing the effectivity of the units as they will get more area surface than just A-moving them in a deathball, as the AI would make them to trip each other.
If you build up and move a ball of units, it is much less effective than pre-spliting for the concave or the sourround, and maximizing DPS density. And that applies to almost all units except air units. For ranged units, the smaller they are, the more "A-move" they become because they maintain a good DPS density in the "ball" (marines, adepts).
Throwing Zealots at Bio is 90% the same than throwing Zerglings and Banelings. You maximize damage by pre-splits, good positioning, and forcing the Bio to counter-micro. So "A-moving" Zealots is very similar to "A-moving" lingbane. In both cases, getting good trades is very difficult to achieve. In both cases, getting good surface area is relatively hard. Zealots are hardly cost efficient in that cases. So yes, they might need buffs.
The problem of Zealots is that they are balanced around Charge. And Charge is a mechanic that removes control from your Zealots, as they auto-engage. But Charge is there to compensate for Concussive Shells effect. You need to tune both to achieve a good usability of Zealots in PvT. Concussive Shells completely negates any possible micro from Zealots, both in attack and retreat.
BW Zealots were amazing because Zealots were faster than many units, ensuring that it was relatively easier to get into engagements, but also because the engine splitted units as they moved. Making them relatively useful, and with good micro they could somewhat force the nature of the movement engine at their favor (kiting -> auto unit spread) The nature of the SC2 engine makes Zealots weaker by default, and if Zealots had the same mobility as they had back in BW, they would be much more microable than actual Zealots, forcing to get good pres-plits in order to be effective against the clumps of units.
BTW, for all that Terrans saying "Protoss A-move" Managing an army of 5 types of different units is more complex than stuttersteping 2 units that have exactly the same micro.
Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV.
With a low movement speed and high damage point, Marines would also be the ultimate a-move unit. The point here is that solid mobility and responsiveness is essential for units to be microable.
The primitive tension between melee and ranged units is that ranged units have the initiative (thanks to their range), but should obviously be weaker in “face to face” combat when melee units manage to successfully close the distance. Hence ranged units tend towards hit & run behaviour to maximize their advantage, while melee units obviously charge to use their own advantage. What makes Charge Zealots and Cyclones so terrible is that they're the pure automation of the archetypal behaviour of their respective category. Charge is the dream of any melee unit, while infinite hit & run is the dream of any ranged unit. And that's why they should never have access to it (at least not without heavy costs/counterparties created through various barriers in the game-user architecture, e. g. monopolizing the attention through micro, having a minor impact on the grand scheme of things, etc.). That's also why burrowed Charge Ultralisks would have been a huge joke, or why automating their “melee approach” by forcing zero collision size with Zerglings would be terribad. But none of this is an accident; it's perfectly representative of the “completeness mindset” in SC2. + Show Spoiler +
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: Completeness is the natural consequence of the intrusive creationist design. Players are dispossessed from their own creative potential and only have to apply the instruction manual. But players, whatever they might say out of bad faith after defeat, do not want to apply the instructions of a manual. They want to find their own solutions within the given frame. They don't want the game to be created “solved,” they want to solve the game themselves. SC2 suffered because the “completeness of the circle of the counters” is inherently an inflationnary process leaving less and less room for the player.
Completeness is toxic for the game. Structural holes are what makes things interesting. For instance, Terran would stop being Terran if they received some metaphysical horror like the “tech reactors” from the campaign or static defence (or more brainless melee units). Having those structural holes within the architecture of the race is what defines it. Working around structural holes is players' job.
You don't play, you simply execute the automated, prepared script.
On May 13 2015 21:48 TheDwf wrote: The primitive tension between melee and ranged units is that ranged units have the initiative (thanks to their range), but should obviously be weaker in “face to face” combat when melee units manage to successfully close the distance. Hence ranged units tend towards hit & run behaviour to maximize their advantage, while melee units obviously charge to use their own advantage. What makes Charge Zealots and Cyclones so terrible is that they're the pure automation of the archetypal behaviour of their respective category. Charge is the dream of any melee unit, while infinite hit & run is the dream of any ranged unit. And that's why they should never have access to it (at least not without heavy costs/counterparties created through various barriers in the game-user architecture, e. g. monopolizing the attention through micro, having a minor impact on the grand scheme of things, etc.). That's also why burrowed Charge Ultralisks would have been a huge joke, or why automating their “melee approach” by forcing zero collision size with Zerglings would be terribad. But none of this is an accident; it's perfectly representative of the “completeness mindset” in SC2. + Show Spoiler +
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: Completeness is the natural consequence of the intrusive creationist design. Players are dispossessed from their own creative potential and only have to apply the instruction manual. But players, whatever they might say out of bad faith after defeat, do not want to apply the instructions of a manual. They want to find their own solutions within the given frame. They don't want the game to be created “solved,” they want to solve the game themselves. SC2 suffered because the “completeness of the circle of the counters” is inherently an inflationnary process leaving less and less room for the player.
Completeness is toxic for the game. Structural holes are what makes things interesting. For instance, Terran would stop being Terran if they received some metaphysical horror like the “tech reactors” from the campaign or static defence (or more brainless melee units). Having those structural holes within the architecture of the race is what defines it. Working around structural holes is players' job.
You don't play, you simply execute the automated, prepared script.
This comes down to: How important should be the strategy/tactic in comparison to the execution. There is no right answer to this i am afraid
Maybe it would be helpful to gateway comps if widow mines used energy? That way, at least protoss could use feedback and give zealots a chance to trade with some units before getting deleted.
On May 13 2015 22:49 BaronVonOwn wrote: Maybe it would be helpful to gateway comps if widow mines used energy? That way, at least protoss could use feedback and give zealots a chance to trade with some units before getting deleted.
If WidowMines didn't hardcounter HT/Zealot so hard and if Colossus tech wasn't an easy solution. I think there would be a cool interaction between Zealots and Widow Mines the same way it is in TvZ I would really love that. Could be that in 5 years some Protoss player called ZealotKing comes along and shows us how PvT is supposed to be played though
On May 13 2015 22:49 BaronVonOwn wrote: Maybe it would be helpful to gateway comps if widow mines used energy? That way, at least protoss could use feedback and give zealots a chance to trade with some units before getting deleted.
If WidowMines didn't hardcounter HT/Zealot so hard and if Colossus tech wasn't an easy solution. I think there would be a cool interaction between Zealots and Widow Mines the same way it is in TvZ I would really love that. Could be that in 5 years some Protoss player called ZealotKing comes along and shows us how PvT is supposed to be played though
Well actually they added 2 hard counters for zealots in HOTS, widow mines and hellbats. Where's the hard counter for marines? Oh that's right, colossus. Seems like you need colossus for everything. Anyway, problem with colossus is that it's easily sniped. Once your colossus are dead, marines walk all over you. Meanwhile, there's no way to snipe widow mines or hellbats. You just can't build zealots anymore. Same can be said with tempests vs. brood lords. Once 4-5 tempests are out, forget about building brood lords for the rest of the game. Muta harass in the ZvT matchup was also devastated by this wonderful zero-effort widow mine unit. Maybe we should take autocast away from widow mines in addition to making them use energy.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, I've realized what a terrible expansion HOTS is. They added a few hard-counters meant to be band-aids, and also blessed us with swarm hosts. They may as well have removed zealots and brood lords from the game.
On May 12 2015 03:38 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: >Mass Recall cost reduced from 100 energy to 50 energy
Because why should a protoss player ever have to worry about good army positioning and movement? Let's just make it so they can have all their units anywhere they want at any time with no consequence! With recall and photon overcharge, there's no need to ever have defensive units at all and you can always move out without worry of being punished ever.
They say they want to discourage deathball play, then they make units like the mothership core encourage it in every way. I'm at a loss for words at how dumb this is.
This first post wins the Thread no competition. Its spot on how they put no thoughts in their ideas and it lets you question their decisions once again.
Really disappointing patchnotes in general. Just experiment, the beta is still kept pretty private. Do something about Tanks and Thors. MediTank out, BW Tanks like someone said here. Better Tanks would solve a lot of problems. Maybe bring back Siege Mode to compensate or make Factorys 200M 100G like in BW. Of course do something for the other races too. Make Zerg more swarm like , too many Units have too many supply and make Protoss strong and durable like they should not be... dumb like some of them are.
But im hyped for the new Terran Unit, how it looks what attributes it will have,name, gender etc.
On May 13 2015 21:48 TheDwf wrote: The primitive tension between melee and ranged units is that ranged units have the initiative (thanks to their range), but should obviously be weaker in “face to face” combat when melee units manage to successfully close the distance. Hence ranged units tend towards hit & run behaviour to maximize their advantage, while melee units obviously charge to use their own advantage. What makes Charge Zealots and Cyclones so terrible is that they're the pure automation of the archetypal behaviour of their respective category. Charge is the dream of any melee unit, while infinite hit & run is the dream of any ranged unit. And that's why they should never have access to it (at least not without heavy costs/counterparties created through various barriers in the game-user architecture, e. g. monopolizing the attention through micro, having a minor impact on the grand scheme of things, etc.). That's also why burrowed Charge Ultralisks would have been a huge joke, or why automating their “melee approach” by forcing zero collision size with Zerglings would be terribad. But none of this is an accident; it's perfectly representative of the “completeness mindset” in SC2. + Show Spoiler +
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: Completeness is the natural consequence of the intrusive creationist design. Players are dispossessed from their own creative potential and only have to apply the instruction manual. But players, whatever they might say out of bad faith after defeat, do not want to apply the instructions of a manual. They want to find their own solutions within the given frame. They don't want the game to be created “solved,” they want to solve the game themselves. SC2 suffered because the “completeness of the circle of the counters” is inherently an inflationnary process leaving less and less room for the player.
Completeness is toxic for the game. Structural holes are what makes things interesting. For instance, Terran would stop being Terran if they received some metaphysical horror like the “tech reactors” from the campaign or static defence (or more brainless melee units). Having those structural holes within the architecture of the race is what defines it. Working around structural holes is players' job.
You don't play, you simply execute the automated, prepared script.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge, or ultra without fungal/some charge mecanism, the "yeah terran micro", while spamming A /right click behind your unit is not that hard, and everyone can perform, while whoever you are, if you have the zealot, you can't get the MM without charge. You ask for a strategic game, but if it's just : Take terran, master hit and run, and you can't be defeated, it's not a strategic game, but more like a "can you do that ?" "Good you win", and the Z/P is a bit like an A.I. vs you on an arcade game".
You can't say, just it's bad design, and ignore T can infinite hit and run easily if these units have not some way to catch them, they become totally useless and not worth being played. Sure making it too strong will be a mistake, but aslo too weak, that's why it's call "balance".
On May 13 2015 21:48 TheDwf wrote: The primitive tension between melee and ranged units is that ranged units have the initiative (thanks to their range), but should obviously be weaker in “face to face” combat when melee units manage to successfully close the distance. Hence ranged units tend towards hit & run behaviour to maximize their advantage, while melee units obviously charge to use their own advantage. What makes Charge Zealots and Cyclones so terrible is that they're the pure automation of the archetypal behaviour of their respective category. Charge is the dream of any melee unit, while infinite hit & run is the dream of any ranged unit. And that's why they should never have access to it (at least not without heavy costs/counterparties created through various barriers in the game-user architecture, e. g. monopolizing the attention through micro, having a minor impact on the grand scheme of things, etc.). That's also why burrowed Charge Ultralisks would have been a huge joke, or why automating their “melee approach” by forcing zero collision size with Zerglings would be terribad. But none of this is an accident; it's perfectly representative of the “completeness mindset” in SC2. + Show Spoiler +
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: Completeness is the natural consequence of the intrusive creationist design. Players are dispossessed from their own creative potential and only have to apply the instruction manual. But players, whatever they might say out of bad faith after defeat, do not want to apply the instructions of a manual. They want to find their own solutions within the given frame. They don't want the game to be created “solved,” they want to solve the game themselves. SC2 suffered because the “completeness of the circle of the counters” is inherently an inflationnary process leaving less and less room for the player.
Completeness is toxic for the game. Structural holes are what makes things interesting. For instance, Terran would stop being Terran if they received some metaphysical horror like the “tech reactors” from the campaign or static defence (or more brainless melee units). Having those structural holes within the architecture of the race is what defines it. Working around structural holes is players' job.
You don't play, you simply execute the automated, prepared script.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge, or ultra without fungal/some charge mecanism, the "yeah terran micro", while spamming A /right click behind your unit is not that hard, and everyone can perform, while whoever you are, if you have the zealot, you can't get the MM without charge. You ask for a strategic game, but if it's just : Take terran, master hit and run, and you can't be defeated, it's not a strategic game, but more like a "can you do that ?" "Good you win", and the Z/P is a bit like an A.I. vs you on an arcade game".
You can't say, just it's bad design, and ignore T can infinite hit and run easily if these units have not some way to catch them, they become totally useless and not worth being played. Sure making it too strong will be a mistake, but aslo too weak, that's why it's call "balance".
Zealots passive speed can be faster than stimmed marauders/marines. Zealots/and/or other melee units can use a charge type ability manually with resources/energy. With some skills. Or some other ability.
There are so many things do be done in this regard, yet here we are with a autocboringcharge. No clue why blizzard didnt make the game more about micro.
On May 14 2015 02:27 Tyrhanius wrote: Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge, or ultra without fungal/some charge mecanism, the "yeah terran micro", while spamming A /right click behind your unit is not that hard, and everyone can perform, while whoever you are, if you have the zealot, you can't get the MM without charge. You ask for a strategic game, but if it's just : Take terran, master hit and run, and you can't be defeated, it's not a strategic game, but more like a "can you do that ?" "Good you win", and the Z/P is a bit like an A.I. vs you on an arcade game".
You can't say, just it's bad design, and ignore T can infinite hit and run easily if these units have not some way to catch them, they become totally useless and not worth being played. Sure making it too strong will be a mistake, but aslo too weak, that's why it's call "balance".
I was thinking maybe give concussive shells a cooldown like a spell? Maybe give it a heavier/longer slow to compensate for this. You'd probably would want it to be at or around the cooldown of charge/blink. That way you could use it to help escape but you can't use it to kite for days. Honestly though I don't even know why this ability is in the game.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
At about 1:38:00 - 1:39:00 6(!) Thors get destroyed by 20-30 Mutas with minimal losses. Something is wrong there.
When are they going to fix carriers? Right now mass carriers are unstoppable. The release interceptor ability is broken.
Also marauders are pretty much useless in late game TvZ. I suggest the following changes:
1) Make marauders do 10+5 armor damage. Reduce cooldown to 1 second. 2) Have the marauders alternate firing between arms again. :D
This makes them less weak against light units like zealots, and not as strong against armored units, without completely nerfing the unit to uselessness.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply..
Yeah to protect the flanks of Mech... like when you go Marine/Marauder/Medivac that kind of Mech...
Blizzard did a real number on SC2 with the Widow Mine, and I've railed against it since I go the HOTS Beta. Back then I feel like people were so awed by the new units and build orders that they thought the early game was coming back and loved it.
Now people are seeing through what Blizzard is feeding them, and realize it is just more gimmicks that don't strategic depth, they actually subtract from it.
Things like Widow Mines reduce strategic variation because your opponent, knowing Widow Mines could be an option as they are so easily accessible, is going to reduce the number of times he splits his forces because he needs to pay attention and watch for Widow Mines. They are incredibly unforgiving unlike Lurkers, where you can react to them after you've taken some damage (unless your opponent has a massive group of Lurkers, but that is a huge investment and whole different strategy). By the time you react versus Widow Mines you've already lost units unless you are carefully watching your units move across the map.
On May 14 2015 05:03 Loccstana wrote: When are they going to fix carriers? Right now mass carriers are unstoppable. The release interceptor ability is broken.
On May 14 2015 02:27 Tyrhanius wrote: Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge, or ultra without fungal/some charge mecanism, the "yeah terran micro", while spamming A /right click behind your unit is not that hard, and everyone can perform, while whoever you are, if you have the zealot, you can't get the MM without charge. You ask for a strategic game, but if it's just : Take terran, master hit and run, and you can't be defeated, it's not a strategic game, but more like a "can you do that ?" "Good you win", and the Z/P is a bit like an A.I. vs you on an arcade game".
You can't say, just it's bad design, and ignore T can infinite hit and run easily if these units have not some way to catch them, they become totally useless and not worth being played. Sure making it too strong will be a mistake, but aslo too weak, that's why it's call "balance".
I was thinking maybe give concussive shells a cooldown like a spell? Maybe give it a heavier/longer slow to compensate for this. You'd probably would want it to be at or around the cooldown of charge/blink. That way you could use it to help escape but you can't use it to kite for days. Honestly though I don't even know why this ability is in the game.
Or just, you know, remove it altogether.
We always complain about anti micro abilities, and concusive shells does just that.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply..
Yeah to protect the flanks of Mech... like when you go Marine/Marauder/Medivac that kind of Mech...
Blizzard did a real number on SC2 with the Widow Mine, and I've railed against it since I go the HOTS Beta. Back then I feel like people were so awed by the new units and build orders that they thought the early game was coming back and loved it.
Now people are seeing through what Blizzard is feeding them, and realize it is just more gimmicks that don't strategic depth, they actually subtract from it.
Things like Widow Mines reduce strategic variation because your opponent, knowing Widow Mines could be an option as they are so easily accessible, is going to reduce the number of times he splits his forces because he needs to pay attention and watch for Widow Mines. They are incredibly unforgiving unlike Lurkers, where you can react to them after you've taken some damage (unless your opponent has a massive group of Lurkers, but that is a huge investment and whole different strategy). By the time you react versus Widow Mines you've already lost units unless you are carefully watching your units move across the map.
I actually really like WM, it gives bio AoE and allows them to have a certain amount of map control, also it forces micro for the oponents.
But I have to agree, its too unforgiving and too much random variance, but its one of those things that are hard to change because its chained to other stuff (for example its tied to muta regen, wich is then tied to medivac speed boost).
Its just one of the things Blizzard didn't implement well and instead of solving it simple put band aids on top of other band aids.
On May 14 2015 05:03 Loccstana wrote: When are they going to fix carriers? Right now mass carriers are unstoppable. The release interceptor ability is broken.
Doesn't widow mines kill interceptors?
Yes and from what I've seen mass Widow Mines + Cyclones have very very cost-efficient trades against Carriers. I think Morrow was complaining about mass Carriers and then Desrow told him to try this composition and Morrow was pretty impressed that it works since nothing else does.
On May 13 2015 21:48 TheDwf wrote: The primitive tension between melee and ranged units is that ranged units have the initiative (thanks to their range), but should obviously be weaker in “face to face” combat when melee units manage to successfully close the distance. Hence ranged units tend towards hit & run behaviour to maximize their advantage, while melee units obviously charge to use their own advantage. What makes Charge Zealots and Cyclones so terrible is that they're the pure automation of the archetypal behaviour of their respective category. Charge is the dream of any melee unit, while infinite hit & run is the dream of any ranged unit. And that's why they should never have access to it (at least not without heavy costs/counterparties created through various barriers in the game-user architecture, e. g. monopolizing the attention through micro, having a minor impact on the grand scheme of things, etc.). That's also why burrowed Charge Ultralisks would have been a huge joke, or why automating their “melee approach” by forcing zero collision size with Zerglings would be terribad. But none of this is an accident; it's perfectly representative of the “completeness mindset” in SC2. + Show Spoiler +
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: Completeness is the natural consequence of the intrusive creationist design. Players are dispossessed from their own creative potential and only have to apply the instruction manual. But players, whatever they might say out of bad faith after defeat, do not want to apply the instructions of a manual. They want to find their own solutions within the given frame. They don't want the game to be created “solved,” they want to solve the game themselves. SC2 suffered because the “completeness of the circle of the counters” is inherently an inflationnary process leaving less and less room for the player.
Completeness is toxic for the game. Structural holes are what makes things interesting. For instance, Terran would stop being Terran if they received some metaphysical horror like the “tech reactors” from the campaign or static defence (or more brainless melee units). Having those structural holes within the architecture of the race is what defines it. Working around structural holes is players' job.
You don't play, you simply execute the automated, prepared script.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge, or ultra without fungal/some charge mecanism, the "yeah terran micro", while spamming A /right click behind your unit is not that hard, and everyone can perform, while whoever you are, if you have the zealot, you can't get the MM without charge. You ask for a strategic game, but if it's just : Take terran, master hit and run, and you can't be defeated, it's not a strategic game, but more like a "can you do that ?" "Good you win", and the Z/P is a bit like an A.I. vs you on an arcade game".
You can't say, just it's bad design, and ignore T can infinite hit and run easily if these units have not some way to catch them, they become totally useless and not worth being played. Sure making it too strong will be a mistake, but aslo too weak, that's why it's call "balance".
Many of you have wrote it. As long as Concussive shells exists, Zealots are going to be in a very bad position, unless you give some type of counterplay to it when in relative close distances; if not, it's just infinite stuttersteping. Concussive shells = remove micro. You cannot presplit or try to position like you do vs forcefields, which are btw quite discussable.
I think that many changes regarding this could be applied. First, obviously, increasing Zealot speed to a good point and maybe, giving some type of long CD, manual charge mechanic to initiate engagements by flanking or so, or just fleeing when caught off guard. Some adjustements to concussive shells would be also interesting.
Also rethinking Sentries a bit, replacing Forcefields with mini-Time Warps, reworking a bit Guardian shield to be spammed on non-massive units and giving slow-immunity, or something like that to combine with the Protoss army.
IMAO, the Sentry is a wasted opportunity to have interesting movement on casters. It's 99% the same story like HTs. You build them in a significant number, they move slow, keep them protected. It could have a bit more movement synergy with a more mobile Protoss army.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
No, it doesn't. Try with 10 - 15 Thors, then tell me how it goes and if Mutas have a chance...
Thor's role is countering light anti-air units or zoning them out if you have short ranged units like Marines that can't deal with them quite well, and Thor certainly doesn't suck at those roles.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply..
Yeah to protect the flanks of Mech... like when you go Marine/Marauder/Medivac that kind of Mech...
Blizzard did a real number on SC2 with the Widow Mine, and I've railed against it since I go the HOTS Beta. Back then I feel like people were so awed by the new units and build orders that they thought the early game was coming back and loved it.
Now people are seeing through what Blizzard is feeding them, and realize it is just more gimmicks that don't strategic depth, they actually subtract from it.
Things like Widow Mines reduce strategic variation because your opponent, knowing Widow Mines could be an option as they are so easily accessible, is going to reduce the number of times he splits his forces because he needs to pay attention and watch for Widow Mines. They are incredibly unforgiving unlike Lurkers, where you can react to them after you've taken some damage (unless your opponent has a massive group of Lurkers, but that is a huge investment and whole different strategy). By the time you react versus Widow Mines you've already lost units unless you are carefully watching your units move across the map.
I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
On May 14 2015 07:45 Tresher wrote: I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
This is a large part of why people say this real-time "strategy" game lacks any strategic depth. At this point, for the majority of matchups there's only one viable "strategy" and the whole game is about finding out who has the better mechanics to execute it better. Nothing differentiates Starcraft as a "strategy" game compared to LoL, DOTA, CSGO etc. right now. All of these games have choices involving positioning and map objectives. In fact it could be argued that LoL and CSGO are probably more strategic right now because they offer you meaningful and viable choices with regard to weapons, champions, team comps etc.
In Brood War there was a working model. Terran going bio? No problem, build some reavers and high templar and make them cry. Going mech? Work your way up to the dreaded carrier switch, and wipe their vultures and tanks from the field, and terran will react by mass producing goliaths. Once a lot of goliaths are out and the vultures are gone, zealots become really strong but carriers are weaker. These are the dynamics I expect from Starcraft.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply..
Yeah to protect the flanks of Mech... like when you go Marine/Marauder/Medivac that kind of Mech...
Blizzard did a real number on SC2 with the Widow Mine, and I've railed against it since I go the HOTS Beta. Back then I feel like people were so awed by the new units and build orders that they thought the early game was coming back and loved it.
Now people are seeing through what Blizzard is feeding them, and realize it is just more gimmicks that don't strategic depth, they actually subtract from it.
Things like Widow Mines reduce strategic variation because your opponent, knowing Widow Mines could be an option as they are so easily accessible, is going to reduce the number of times he splits his forces because he needs to pay attention and watch for Widow Mines. They are incredibly unforgiving unlike Lurkers, where you can react to them after you've taken some damage (unless your opponent has a massive group of Lurkers, but that is a huge investment and whole different strategy). By the time you react versus Widow Mines you've already lost units unless you are carefully watching your units move across the map.
I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
Pure Mech is more than viable in TvZ and TvT. Problem is that it takes time to start, so going blindly into Reaper/Hellion/Banshee harass into Mech is quite vulnerable to all-ins and so, and recently Zergs have adapted to it quite well.
It doesn't compeltely work in TvP though. However, BioMech had been strong for a while in WoL and has been attempted from time to time with decent results (more as an opener though), as HotS seems to be more greedy and macro-heavy in openings.
A week ago Gumiho showed that BioMech (TankRaven) put PartinG, one of the best Protosses when it comes to PvT, in big problems on macro maps, and if Gumiho had teched to Ghosts earlier, it could have been really devastating in many engagements. So hybrid mech is quite effective in TvP, as it is a compositional nightmare for Protosses.. as it is for Terrans. Styles that involve a ton of upgrades and different units are difficult to be played for both players. I'd say that mixedstyle is a relatively unexplored area on TvP since it is very hard to pull off and neeed a ton of dedication and good playing.
On May 12 2015 03:58 Big J wrote: I wish they were clearer on the Broodlord change. Is it the broodlord range that goes from 9.5 to 11, or is it the broodling range that changes from 9 to 11. Because if it really is the first, that mainly helps with a-moving and all of that stuff, but isn't really a change to the broodlords range.
I dont understand your question really. am I missing something here? The broodLing range? Its a melee unit. Are you confusing this with locusts? or are you interpreting broodLing range as how long it stays alive? and then I dont even get what you say next.
On May 12 2015 03:58 Big J wrote: I wish they were clearer on the Broodlord change. Is it the broodlord range that goes from 9.5 to 11, or is it the broodling range that changes from 9 to 11. Because if it really is the first, that mainly helps with a-moving and all of that stuff, but isn't really a change to the broodlords range.
I dont understand your question really. am I missing something here? The broodLing range? Its a melee unit. Are you confusing this with locusts? or are you interpreting broodLing range as how long it stays alive? and then I dont even get what you say next.
I think he means the range at which Broodlords can launch broodlings. That doesnt have to be the same as the range broodlords deal their 35 damage.
On May 14 2015 07:45 Tresher wrote: I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
This is a large part of why people say this real-time "strategy" game lacks any strategic depth. At this point, for the majority of matchups there's only one viable "strategy" and the whole game is about finding out who has the better mechanics to execute it better. Nothing differentiates Starcraft as a "strategy" game compared to LoL, DOTA, CSGO etc. right now. All of these games have choices involving positioning and map objectives. In fact it could be argued that LoL and CSGO are probably more strategic right now because they offer you meaningful and viable choices with regard to weapons, champions, team comps etc.
In Brood War there was a working model. Terran going bio? No problem, build some reavers and high templar and make them cry. Going mech? Work your way up to the dreaded carrier switch, and wipe their vultures and tanks from the field, and terran will react by mass producing goliaths. Once a lot of goliaths are out and the vultures are gone, zealots become really strong but carriers are weaker. These are the dynamics I expect from Starcraft.
Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
I really hope they get around to really changing at least some of the core issues with protoss.
Trying to steer away from deathball play and going to multiple expands - yet then the defensive unit is a 1 of - doesnt make sense to me. Recall should really be on a massable support unit, so we could see some cool split plays.
The forced autocast on stasis trap removes a lot of strategic play from the mine. I dislike the change in terms of taking away the choice of when to activate it - though i agree that units shouldnt be removeable from combat for that long.
On May 14 2015 07:45 Tresher wrote: I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
This is a large part of why people say this real-time "strategy" game lacks any strategic depth. At this point, for the majority of matchups there's only one viable "strategy" and the whole game is about finding out who has the better mechanics to execute it better. Nothing differentiates Starcraft as a "strategy" game compared to LoL, DOTA, CSGO etc. right now. All of these games have choices involving positioning and map objectives. In fact it could be argued that LoL and CSGO are probably more strategic right now because they offer you meaningful and viable choices with regard to weapons, champions, team comps etc.
In Brood War there was a working model. Terran going bio? No problem, build some reavers and high templar and make them cry. Going mech? Work your way up to the dreaded carrier switch, and wipe their vultures and tanks from the field, and terran will react by mass producing goliaths. Once a lot of goliaths are out and the vultures are gone, zealots become really strong but carriers are weaker. These are the dynamics I expect from Starcraft.
Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
Thank you. One of the best parts of the game is how everyone has their own style. Even two players using the same units can play in such a different way that you can tell who it is without seeing their name.
On May 14 2015 14:16 weikor wrote: Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
If that's what makes a game strategic, then Mario 3 is the greatest strategy game of all time. You've gotta time when to jump over those pipe plants, cannonballs, lava bursts, etc. Execute a jump poorly and you fall off the map. Every game has elements of execution and timing and it's not special. What makes strategy games different from every other game is that you build and control an army, and make resource investments, and that your choices in these areas will be a huge if not deciding factor in the game. I can't believe I need to explain all this. Anyway my complaint is that Starcraft 2 presents a series of false choices in the majority of matchups and the only skill is doing everything faster and more optimally than other players. If I wanted that I'd go play Mario Kart, it does a much better job at that kind of gameplay.
As for Brood War. It's not "nostalgia" because I still play the game.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Lol, and you imagine 30 mutas is free ? Zerg plants spire, and 30 mutas appears ? Then you can make millions lings (of zerg have infinite free larvas too, after paying 30 larvas you have again 50larvas for 100zerglings), and then free tech mass ultra (cause mutas are so free, you have again 3000/2000 for 10 ultras after/uprgrade infestpit/hive/ultraden/amorupgrade)...
If it's happened it's you totally outmacroed,and you deserve to lose.
But maybe your point is just : T must never lose, even outmacroed, less army value, less economy, if not it's design issue and T need more heavy cheap hard counter that can kill thousands of Zerg units...
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Lol, and you imagine 30 mutas is free ? Zerg plants spire, and 30 mutas appears ? Then you can make millions lings (of zerg have infinite free larvas too, after paying 30 larvas you have again 50larvas for 100zerglings), and then free tech mass ultra (cause mutas are so free, you have again 2000/3000 for 10 ultras after/uprgrade infestpit/hive/ultraden/amorupgrade)...
If it's happened it's you totally outmacroed,and you deserve to lose.
But maybe your point is just : T must never lose, even outmacroed, less army value, less economy, if not it's design issue and T need more heavy cheap hard counter that can kill thousands of Zerg units...
Can you stop derailing good discussions and intelligent posts with your vindictive racial warfare mindset? This is the LotV beta forum, the goal is to build a better game, not to rehash irrelevant rancors. Thanks.
On May 14 2015 14:16 weikor wrote: Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
If that's what makes a game strategic, then Mario 3 is the greatest strategy game of all time. You've gotta time when to jump over those pipe plants, cannonballs, lava bursts, etc. Execute a jump poorly and you fall off the map. Every game has elements of execution and timing and it's not special. What makes strategy games different from every other game is that you build and control an army, and make resource investments, and that your choices in these areas will be a huge if not deciding factor in the game. I can't believe I need to explain all this. Anyway my complaint is that Starcraft 2 presents a series of false choices in the majority of matchups and the only skill is doing everything faster and more optimally than other players. If I wanted that I'd go play Mario Kart, it does a much better job at that kind of gameplay.
As for Brood War. It's not "nostalgia" because I still play the game.
Do you even play sc2? Do the same things against me every game and I'll beat you every time after the first. There is no optimal way to play each match up.
On May 15 2015 02:11 knOxStarcraft wrote: Do you even play sc2? Do the same things against me every game and I'll beat you every time after the first. There is no optimal way to play each match up.
SC2 is played in a Bo1 format on the ladder, and I am not a GSL contestant. So I don't see how that's relevant.
On May 14 2015 14:16 weikor wrote: Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
If that's what makes a game strategic, then Mario 3 is the greatest strategy game of all time. You've gotta time when to jump over those pipe plants, cannonballs, lava bursts, etc. Execute a jump poorly and you fall off the map. Every game has elements of execution and timing and it's not special. What makes strategy games different from every other game is that you build and control an army, and make resource investments, and that your choices in these areas will be a huge if not deciding factor in the game. I can't believe I need to explain all this. Anyway my complaint is that Starcraft 2 presents a series of false choices in the majority of matchups and the only skill is doing everything faster and more optimally than other players. If I wanted that I'd go play Mario Kart, it does a much better job at that kind of gameplay.
As for Brood War. It's not "nostalgia" because I still play the game.
Do you even play sc2? Do the same things against me every game and I'll beat you every time after the first. There is no optimal way to play each match up.
The definition of standard play is that you are capable of being able to play vs anything with it. Reaper expand is the most common, if you Reaper FE-> 3 rax in TvP, you should be able to hold any all ins and also not be too behind against greedy players.
In Starcraft 2 you can play the same build every game and still win,, no variance needed.
I don't understand why they do update previews since the updates go through every time without any tweak. Everyone is yelling at them that 50 energy recall is a terrible idea, and we get it.
On May 14 2015 04:39 BaronVonOwn wrote: [quote] That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Lol, and you imagine 30 mutas is free ? Zerg plants spire, and 30 mutas appears ? Then you can make millions lings (of zerg have infinite free larvas too, after paying 30 larvas you have again 50larvas for 100zerglings), and then free tech mass ultra (cause mutas are so free, you have again 2000/3000 for 10 ultras after/uprgrade infestpit/hive/ultraden/amorupgrade)...
If it's happened it's you totally outmacroed,and you deserve to lose.
But maybe your point is just : T must never lose, even outmacroed, less army value, less economy, if not it's design issue and T need more heavy cheap hard counter that can kill thousands of Zerg units...
Can you stop derailing good discussions and intelligent posts with your vindictive racial warfare mindset? This is the LotV beta forum, the goal is to build a better game, not to rehash irrelevant rancors. Thanks.
Mutas is exactly what this game need : strenght and weakness, expansive, low range, bad in frontal assault, punish mistake really hard, but fast, microable, can be heavy reward with good position, map awareness. Just asking for a unit that will make them useless, arguing : 30 mutalisks should beat 6 thors out position, cause what ? Zerg shouldn't win ? Is what kills the game.
Just watch the relation between hellbat, and zergling : Hellbat makes the units useless. So what a clever man will do ? Just add the hard counter : Hellbat (zergling dead), + tank : ground dead, oh man you need too much thor vs mutas, give me a hard counter to mutalisk. I can add it to my deathball and no threat anymore.
Thor sure isn't a very good design unit, but vs mutas, it's a very decent soft counter, we don't need hard counter everywhere, or what will happen if they really a mutas hard counter : Tank drop >zerg need mutas to defend it ->T make the anti-mutas. Now the unit protect them each other, and this become an invincible composition, just like deathball.
It's exactly why mech is so awful : mech is really strong on frontal assault but slow, so you could try to exploit it with some speed unit/outposition. But now HOTS give medivac boost/hellbat to lose his weakness of mobility, The siege tank have research before : Oh no, we can be killed before the research completed. Make it free The siege tank force mech to move tank slowly, so you can say : OK tank could be good if he take some position, but i can counter it to prevent him getting the position. Medivac again allow tank to be everywhere on the map, and now on LOTV you can't prevent them to get some position, you force to accept the bad fight.
Banshee could do a lot of dmg, + cloak vs the ground, but die if caught by mutas : allow them to escape. Mech bad vs protoss : make them good with cyclon : mobility/range/highdmg/tanky : weakness ? No thx.
Mutas could counter it as medivac/tank don't shot ground :" give me a unit wich can kill mutas, so then no weakness".
The main goal of mech is : be invincible have no weakness, and only strengh...Silly...
I fully agree with the spirit of your argument. The “completeness mindset” is terrible indeed. Now, Thors should be replaced with a lighter unit anyway, and Terran should reasonably suffer against mutas (whether they go bio or mech). That's why I am against the revamped Valkyrie they want to implement. Mech/air upgrades should be separate again, and mech should retain a certain weakness to air (= exactly the contrary of HotS Vikings/Ravens). Any excessive synergy between the Medivac and mech should be axed too, the Hellbat has no business being a dedicated anti-melee 1a unit, Tanks in Siege Mode should not be pickable, etc. For Banshees, I advocated simple cost reductions instead of the speed upgrade. Mines should also be reworked on a weaker 1 supply variant acting as a support unit (not a core one like in HotS). Cyclones have simply no business being in the game.
With this recall buff even though I am zerg play I might player toss now haha. I really don't care too much just gonna play what I like xD I am so excited to try recalls tonight make proxy nexus and recall there. If they can't see that I will put 400 minerals (so much more worth than 4 zelot run by) for base snipe and recall back to my base. I hate walking xD!!!!!!!!
On May 14 2015 04:58 Tresher wrote: [quote] Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Lol, and you imagine 30 mutas is free ? Zerg plants spire, and 30 mutas appears ? Then you can make millions lings (of zerg have infinite free larvas too, after paying 30 larvas you have again 50larvas for 100zerglings), and then free tech mass ultra (cause mutas are so free, you have again 2000/3000 for 10 ultras after/uprgrade infestpit/hive/ultraden/amorupgrade)...
If it's happened it's you totally outmacroed,and you deserve to lose.
But maybe your point is just : T must never lose, even outmacroed, less army value, less economy, if not it's design issue and T need more heavy cheap hard counter that can kill thousands of Zerg units...
Can you stop derailing good discussions and intelligent posts with your vindictive racial warfare mindset? This is the LotV beta forum, the goal is to build a better game, not to rehash irrelevant rancors. Thanks.
Mutas is exactly what this game need : strenght and weakness, expansive, low range, bad in frontal assault, punish mistake really hard, but fast, microable, can be heavy reward with good position, map awareness. Just asking for a unit that will make them useless, arguing : 30 mutalisks should beat 6 thors out position, cause what ? Zerg shouldn't win ? Is what kills the game.
Just watch the relation between hellbat, and zergling : Hellbat makes the units useless. So what a clever man will do ? Just add the hard counter : Hellbat (zergling dead), + tank : ground dead, oh man you need too much thor vs mutas, give me a hard counter to mutalisk. I can add it to my deathball and no threat anymore.
Thor sure isn't a very good design unit, but vs mutas, it's a very decent soft counter, we don't need hard counter everywhere, or what will happen if they really a mutas hard counter : Tank drop >zerg need mutas to defend it ->T make the anti-mutas. Now the unit protect them each other, and this become an invincible composition, just like deathball.
It's exactly why mech is so awful : mech is really strong on frontal assault but slow, so you could try to exploit it with some speed unit/outposition. But now HOTS give medivac boost/hellbat to lose his weakness of mobility, The siege tank have research before : Oh no, we can be killed before the research completed. Make it free The siege tank force mech to move tank slowly, so you can say : OK tank could be good if he take some position, but i can counter it to prevent him getting the position. Medivac again allow tank to be everywhere on the map, and now on LOTV you can't prevent them to get some position, you force to accept the bad fight.
Banshee could do a lot of dmg, + cloak vs the ground, but die if caught by mutas : allow them to escape. Mech bad vs protoss : make them good with cyclon : mobility/range/highdmg/tanky : weakness ? No thx.
Mutas could counter it as medivac/tank don't shot ground :" give me a unit wich can kill mutas, so then no weakness".
The main goal of mech is : be invincible have no weakness, and only strengh...Silly...
which is fine. Nowhere in my post did I say thors should be invincible, or advocating that Terran needs to win every game. It was an explanation of why 10 thors vs 30 muta doesn't speak to the effectiveness of the units involved. Thors are insanely expensive have only one role in the match up, and have a myriad of weakness. I don't want it to be the best unit in the game, just maybe be more useful. Or get rid of it and give something else. Hell the Cyclone in my opinion is already too much and the wrong way to go with the anti air mech business, but Terran does need a viable mobile anti air unit that can deal with mass air. Especially with lotv focusing on harass and expanding and having to deal with defending multiple bases at a time with super immobile units.
At the end of the day all we're saying is that the Thor sucks for what it is. Give us a better unit or make the Thor work for something other than Vs Mass muta anti air.
On May 15 2015 05:19 TheDwf wrote: I fully agree with the spirit of your argument. The “completeness mindset” is terrible indeed. Now, Thors should be replaced with a lighter unit anyway, and Terran should reasonably suffer against mutas (whether they go bio or mech). That's why I am against the revamped Valkyrie they want to implement. Mech/air upgrades should be separate again, and mech should retain a certain weakness to air (= exactly the contrary of HotS Vikings/Ravens). Any excessive synergy between the Medivac and mech should be axed too, the Hellbat has no business being a dedicated anti-melee 1a unit, Tanks in Siege Mode should not be pickable, etc. For Banshees, I advocated simple cost reductions instead of the speed upgrade. Mines should also be reworked on a weaker 1 supply variant acting as a support unit (not a core one like in HotS). Cyclones have simply no business being in the game.
Er... but couldn't the cyclone be the lighter unit you're referring to?
On May 14 2015 14:16 weikor wrote: Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
If that's what makes a game strategic, then Mario 3 is the greatest strategy game of all time. You've gotta time when to jump over those pipe plants, cannonballs, lava bursts, etc. Execute a jump poorly and you fall off the map. Every game has elements of execution and timing and it's not special. What makes strategy games different from every other game is that you build and control an army, and make resource investments, and that your choices in these areas will be a huge if not deciding factor in the game. I can't believe I need to explain all this. Anyway my complaint is that Starcraft 2 presents a series of false choices in the majority of matchups and the only skill is doing everything faster and more optimally than other players. If I wanted that I'd go play Mario Kart, it does a much better job at that kind of gameplay.
As for Brood War. It's not "nostalgia" because I still play the game.
I agree with everyone else, you're totally wrong here. SC2 has huuuge amounts of strategy to it in terms of how you open, what your composition looks like etc. It may seem like just bio vs robo bay but in reality there are heaps of little decisions in those comps. When do you add in vikings and ghosts, is more marauder-heavy better, how many medivacs is too many in this game, how many widow mines should I have, if any at all. On the protoss side, there are decisions about when to tech to HTs, whether you want to go HTs or collosi first, how many stalkers are needed to deal with vikings etc. There are strategic decisions about when to attack, where to put units, how much production to add, when to take additional bases.
I mean seriously, are you going to argue that these decisions are any less strategic than the completely binary decision of whether to make factory units or barracks units? It's just a silly argument. Not to mention that at anything beneath pro level of play, you can win with just about anything, just like in BW.
On May 14 2015 14:16 weikor wrote: Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
If that's what makes a game strategic, then Mario 3 is the greatest strategy game of all time. You've gotta time when to jump over those pipe plants, cannonballs, lava bursts, etc. Execute a jump poorly and you fall off the map. Every game has elements of execution and timing and it's not special. What makes strategy games different from every other game is that you build and control an army, and make resource investments, and that your choices in these areas will be a huge if not deciding factor in the game. I can't believe I need to explain all this. Anyway my complaint is that Starcraft 2 presents a series of false choices in the majority of matchups and the only skill is doing everything faster and more optimally than other players. If I wanted that I'd go play Mario Kart, it does a much better job at that kind of gameplay.
As for Brood War. It's not "nostalgia" because I still play the game.
I agree with everyone else, you're totally wrong here. SC2 has huuuge amounts of strategy to it in terms of how you open, what your composition looks like etc. It may seem like just bio vs robo bay but in reality there are heaps of little decisions in those comps. When do you add in vikings and ghosts, is more marauder-heavy better, how many medivacs is too many in this game, how many widow mines should I have, if any at all. On the protoss side, there are decisions about when to tech to HTs, whether you want to go HTs or collosi first, how many stalkers are needed to deal with vikings etc. There are strategic decisions about when to attack, where to put units, how much production to add, when to take additional bases.
I mean seriously, are you going to argue that these decisions are any less strategic than the completely binary decision of whether to make factory units or barracks units? It's just a silly argument. Not to mention that at anything beneath pro level of play, you can win with just about anything, just like in BW.
Diferent type of compositions have different strenghts and weaknesess, thus they add to the dept of strategy that exists in the game, not in the action of chosing but in the fact that the units are different between themselves.
The factory vs barrack of terran is simply given by a design characteristic of the race, zergs only need 1 building plus some upgradesto open tech choices so they are capable of creating any combination in their compositions, protoss are tied by the act of teching, so they choose 1 tech path and complement with lower tech units creating an army of power units and buffer units, terran are tied by their production and upgrades, in a way combination of the 2 above, so they are given this duality in compositions.
The binary between bio and mech exist as a racial characteristic trait, not as an arbitrary choice.
Also to the choices =/= strategy argument, indeed is true that you don't need explicit choices to have strategy however having more choices do add more strategy to the one that already exists. This is because each choice has strategic dept on its own.
To make an example using the bio and mech argument, the existing of both bio and mech adds more strategic dept to the game, not for the sole choice that exist between them, but because at their core they are fundamentaly different and thus both have a unique dept of strategy on their own.
On May 15 2015 05:19 TheDwf wrote: I fully agree with the spirit of your argument. The “completeness mindset” is terrible indeed. Now, Thors should be replaced with a lighter unit anyway, and Terran should reasonably suffer against mutas (whether they go bio or mech). That's why I am against the revamped Valkyrie they want to implement. Mech/air upgrades should be separate again, and mech should retain a certain weakness to air (= exactly the contrary of HotS Vikings/Ravens). Any excessive synergy between the Medivac and mech should be axed too, the Hellbat has no business being a dedicated anti-melee 1a unit, Tanks in Siege Mode should not be pickable, etc. For Banshees, I advocated simple cost reductions instead of the speed upgrade. Mines should also be reworked on a weaker 1 supply variant acting as a support unit (not a core one like in HotS). Cyclones have simply no business being in the game.
Er... but couldn't the cyclone be the lighter unit you're referring to?
Theoretically it could, yes. But reworking the Thor towards the Goliath would be much simpler, rather than add a Warhound 2.0 that Terran still does not need.
On May 15 2015 14:13 StalkerFang wrote: I agree with everyone else, you're totally wrong here. SC2 has huuuge amounts of strategy to it in terms of how you open, what your composition looks like etc. It may seem like just bio vs robo bay but in reality there are heaps of little decisions in those comps. When do you add in vikings and ghosts, is more marauder-heavy better, how many medivacs is too many in this game, how many widow mines should I have, if any at all.
Some of those are examples of how I think Starcraft should work. For example adding vikings if colossus or ghosts if HT. The problem is that once you have a healthy viking+ghost count and the production set up there's no reason to build any other units because there's nothing protoss can do to counter that comp. So the strategic choices you are describing amount to plotting the optimal path to reaching your race's respective deathball.
That's not how I think Starcraft should work, I think every unit or comp ought to have a counter unit or comp. A unit comp with no weaknesses just sounds broken to me. It's pretty fundamental to video games that every boss or unit has a weakness that can be exploited and I think SC2 is failing in this basic measure.
On May 15 2015 05:19 TheDwf wrote: I fully agree with the spirit of your argument. The “completeness mindset” is terrible indeed. Now, Thors should be replaced with a lighter unit anyway, and Terran should reasonably suffer against mutas (whether they go bio or mech). That's why I am against the revamped Valkyrie they want to implement. Mech/air upgrades should be separate again, and mech should retain a certain weakness to air (= exactly the contrary of HotS Vikings/Ravens). Any excessive synergy between the Medivac and mech should be axed too, the Hellbat has no business being a dedicated anti-melee 1a unit, Tanks in Siege Mode should not be pickable, etc. For Banshees, I advocated simple cost reductions instead of the speed upgrade. Mines should also be reworked on a weaker 1 supply variant acting as a support unit (not a core one like in HotS). Cyclones have simply no business being in the game.
Er... but couldn't the cyclone be the lighter unit you're referring to?
Theoretically it could, yes. But reworking the Thor towards the Goliath would be much simpler, rather than add a Warhound 2.0 that Terran still does not need.
I think the Thor does work, but it just requires support of smaller units. Marine/Thor is quite effective against mutas because the Thors provide kind of an anchor for the marines to move around (because they move and attack slow but they have such powerful splash). So if the idea was that the Cyclones replace the Marines that way to make it pure mech that would still make design sense.
But I guess that would be where the Cyclone was more like the Goliath.
Zealots are already incredibly strong and difficult to deal with, from a warp prism a couple of seconds and you can spawn an army with 1000+ hit points that hits very hard and can charge for guaranteed damage but toss is definitely suffering in the Beta. Although to be honest, its about time i think. It needs to be tweaked and buffed, but after being steamrolled a billion times by undeserved protoss wins - unscouted DT, blink, seven gate, immortal sentry, etc any of the dozens of ways toss gets free wins its about time they got a taste of their own medicine.
Broodlord range is a nice idea, but the major problem with broodlords is not the range or the damage. It is that they are so incredibly slow. If you see broodlords you have two options, both of which can work very well. Immediately go around the army and go for a base trade. Broodlords hit hard and build up broodlings to block pathing, but they can never catch up to medivacs, speed roaches, blink stalkers, warp prisms, etc anything. Distract with counter attacks while building up vikings, tempests, void rays, etc and its quite easy to deal with broodlords and unless the zerg devotes to pure air, the broodlords become flying paper weights once any of the counters come into play
I think a better idea would be to address the mobility problems of brood lords, a late game speed buff or a new kind of functionality. Maybe something like recall with the ability to tunnel itself anywhere on creep but with a quite long cooldown, something like the tunnelling swarm hosts in the heart of the swarm campaign to allow for instant repositions. Protoss has the ability to recall to a nexus at any time, how about something with a similar functionality to let broodlords be aggressive, kill a base, then burrow themselves back to creep safely to maybe keep them around instead of just automatically losing them when you need to abandon a position since they are so slow they always trail behind and are easy pickings. I dunno how that would look or work for a flying unit, but I think broodlords will be more fun and more useful all around if they have SOME way to get around besides moving at the speed of a snail on valium.
Also with the recent swarm host nerf and the supply dump of swarm hosts that are totally useless for defense, maybe think about instituting some brood lord changes in Heart of the Swarm as well. Zerg needs some kind of late game, getting stuck on lair tech is too easy and protoss and mech just demolish zerg lair tech armies at high supply.
Just my thoughts. Very excited to see how LotV develops.
On May 15 2015 05:19 TheDwf wrote: I fully agree with the spirit of your argument. The “completeness mindset” is terrible indeed. Now, Thors should be replaced with a lighter unit anyway, and Terran should reasonably suffer against mutas (whether they go bio or mech). That's why I am against the revamped Valkyrie they want to implement. Mech/air upgrades should be separate again, and mech should retain a certain weakness to air (= exactly the contrary of HotS Vikings/Ravens). Any excessive synergy between the Medivac and mech should be axed too, the Hellbat has no business being a dedicated anti-melee 1a unit, Tanks in Siege Mode should not be pickable, etc. For Banshees, I advocated simple cost reductions instead of the speed upgrade. Mines should also be reworked on a weaker 1 supply variant acting as a support unit (not a core one like in HotS). Cyclones have simply no business being in the game.
Commenters keep calling it a revamped Valkyrie, but this is a bad comparison. Is it just because it's a Terran unit? Splash, AA, high attack rate, maneuverable... sounds much more like a Corsair than a Valkyrie. Corsair + mini Tempest, once it's transformed into its immobile form.
On May 18 2015 08:38 Jwrath wrote: Zealots are already incredibly strong and difficult to deal with, from a warp prism a couple of seconds and you can spawn an army with 1000+ hit points that hits very hard and can charge for guaranteed damage but toss is definitely suffering in the Beta. Although to be honest, its about time i think. It needs to be tweaked and buffed, but after being steamrolled a billion times by undeserved protoss wins - unscouted DT, blink, seven gate, immortal sentry, etc any of the dozens of ways toss gets free wins its about time they got a taste of their own medicine.
Broodlord range is a nice idea, but the major problem with broodlords is not the range or the damage. It is that they are so incredibly slow. If you see broodlords you have two options, both of which can work very well. Immediately go around the army and go for a base trade. Broodlords hit hard and build up broodlings to block pathing, but they can never catch up to medivacs, speed roaches, blink stalkers, warp prisms, etc anything. Distract with counter attacks while building up vikings, tempests, void rays, etc and its quite easy to deal with broodlords and unless the zerg devotes to pure air, the broodlords become flying paper weights once any of the counters come into play
I think a better idea would be to address the mobility problems of brood lords, a late game speed buff or a new kind of functionality. Maybe something like recall with the ability to tunnel itself anywhere on creep but with a quite long cooldown, something like the tunnelling swarm hosts in the heart of the swarm campaign to allow for instant repositions. Protoss has the ability to recall to a nexus at any time, how about something with a similar functionality to let broodlords be aggressive, kill a base, then burrow themselves back to creep safely to maybe keep them around instead of just automatically losing them when you need to abandon a position since they are so slow they always trail behind and are easy pickings. I dunno how that would look or work for a flying unit, but I think broodlords will be more fun and more useful all around if they have SOME way to get around besides moving at the speed of a snail on valium.
Also with the recent swarm host nerf and the supply dump of swarm hosts that are totally useless for defense, maybe think about instituting some brood lord changes in Heart of the Swarm as well. Zerg needs some kind of late game, getting stuck on lair tech is too easy and protoss and mech just demolish zerg lair tech armies at high supply.
Just my thoughts. Very excited to see how LotV develops.
Certainly broodlords needs more mobility, battlecruisers now have teletransport, protoss have the recall, but broodlords , pff........, could be interesting see who is more slow broodlords or queens out of creep, XD.
EPT![[image loading]](http://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/blog_header/ZIBRBIXE7F5K1426688146595.jpg)
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