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The Effect of the 60-Shield Zealot in PvZ

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
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[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-22 08:22:28
April 22 2015 07:06 GMT
#1
So with Warpgate weakened by warp-in time and 200% damage dealt, it would only make sense for the Protoss core to be strengthened in compensation. That way, the Protoss loses some offensive capability since proxy pylons lose their strength, but can still defend adequately. Being more familiar with PvZ, I wanted to investigate this matchup first, but I can do a similar look into the PvT matchup at a later date.

Early on in SC2, the Zealot's shields were lowered to 50 from 60 due to the increased strength from offensive and hidden warps. With those losing some strength in LotV, I decided to see how a 60 SP zealot would fare compared to a 50 SP one. In addition, I found another idea in this thread about having charge available earlier, perhaps at cybercore tech, as the weakness in Zealots is the fact that they can't close into their target.

Another reason I chose to try out the 10 SP is that the extra time each Zealot stays alive adds to its damage output (since it can swipe once more), leading to more Zerg casualties, which allow more Zealots to survive, etc. This would be a good example of a change that doesn't change the initial units much, but does allow for a bigger superiority midgame. Unlike the earlier charge, it also doesn't interfere with builds in itself, only in the strategies Protoss and Zerg choose to enact as a result of stronger Zealots.

I decided to try out both ideas to some extent, and my tests thus ended up amounting to:

Comparing Zealot vs. Zergling engagements (various sizes and upgrades)
Adding charge for one of these engagements
Comparing Zealot walls (various upgrades)
Comparing Zealot vs. Roach engagements (various sizes upgrades)
Adding charge early on, say at Protoss 1/0 and Zerg 0/0
Comparing Zealot vs. Roach/Hydra engagements (various upgrades)
Adding charge early on, say at Protoss 1/0 and Zerg 0/0

I ran a total of 48 scenarios, 24 for each Zealot, for 10 tests each. The two forces, Protoss and Zerg, a-move each other with no micro on either side. In the case of Roach/Hydra, I manually position the Roaches in front as they would be in a standard attack. In this summary, the range is the boundary between the second-best and second-worst outcome for Protoss (or Zerg, since it's symmetric), and the average is the mean result of this same range (so not accounting for the two outliers). After each set of data I give my thoughts on the results.

So here's how everything stacked up. A link to all of my test results is at the bottom of this post.



Scenario I. 1 Zealot vs. 4 Zerglings

+ Show Spoiler +
A small engagement, I added this one in to see whether early-game was particularly damaged by the addition.

Case A: 0-0 upgrades on both sides
Range for HotS Zealot: 2 Lings, 1 at full health, 1 at 4-20 HP
Range for New Zealot: 2 Lings, 1 at full health, 1 at 4-12 HP
Average for HotS Zealot: 2 Lings, 1 at full health, 1 at 13 HP
Average for New Zealot: 2 Lings, 1 at full health, 1 at 5 HP
Overall: About a half-swipe of improvement, and not relevant for scouting Zerglings, as they will just retreat and regenerate anyway. No real change.

Case B: 1-0 Zealot, 0-0 Speedlings
Range for HotS Zealot: 1 Zealot at 28-36 HP
Range for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at 32-40 HP
Average for HotS Zealot: 1 Zealot at 32 HP
Average for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at 35 HP
Overall: One Zergling attack's worth of improvement (since Zerglings do 4 damage to Zealots at 0-0 vs. 1 armor, realistically the 35 rounds to 36). Also not very impressive by itself. We shall see how this adds up in the future, however.

Case D: 3-3 on both sides, Charge and crack researched
Range for HotS Zealot: 2 Lings at full HP, all 8 (and all 10) test cases
Range for New Zealot: 2 Lings, 1 at full health, 1 at 20-35 HP
Average for HotS Zealot: 2 Lings at full HP
Average for New Zealot: 2 Lings, one at 30 HP
Overall: As before, cracklings are far more cost effective than Zealots, as they should be. They are far weaker to AoE, meaning that Protoss can't rely on Zealots alone to deter them, but as before, we'll see how the extra quarter-swipe adds up over time.

You'll notice I skipped case C. C is what I labeled my 1-0 chargelots (same as B, but with the charge upgrade researched), and is what I used to simulate the protoss player chronoing out charge right after warp gate, but before 1/1 kicked in or any other upgrades. An early charge, basically. In small numbers of lings vs. lots, charge plays a negligible impact. This will become more relevant later, and I will insert case C where it starts to play a difference.


We're going to try out two more scenarios with doubled numbers. Since 4 lings beat out zealots with even upgrades, Scenario II will be 2 vs. 7, while III will be the full 2 vs. 8.



Scenario II. 2 Zealots vs. 7 Zerglings

+ Show Spoiler +
We're going to have some larger variety, so outliers will be decided on quantity of units, then HP. So in case A, 2 lings with 4 HP is better for Zerg than 1 with 20 HP, so I'm throwing out the 2-ling test case as it was the best outcome for Zerg. Biracial averages (between Zerg survivors and Protoss survivors) in this section will be done by adding total HP. Zealot survivors will be an average of the higher-HP zealot, and an average of the lower HP zealot.

Case A: 0-0 upgrades on both sides
Range for HotS Zealot: 1 Ling with 20 HP - 1 Zealot with 20 HP
Range for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at 32-48 HP
Average for HotS Zealot: 1 Zealot at 8 HP
Average for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at 39 HP
Overall: Note that shield regen makes this difference bigger. We have a barely living zealot with a total of 58 life, mostly unarmored (only 8 of it is armored), compared to a slightly better zealot with a total of 99 life with over a third of it armored. Now we see a considerable difference in the life of our surviving zealot. With proper micro, even both zealots might survive (as happened in one of the micro-less outlier cases).

Case B: 1-0 Zealots, 0-0 Speedlings
Range for HotS Zealot: 2 Zealot at combined 112-128 HP
Range for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at combined 120-136 HP
Average for HotS Zealot: 1 Zealot at 92 HP, 1 Zealot at 30 HP
Average for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at 93 HP, 1 Zealot at 40 HP
Overall: Not as big a difference here. So either case A was a fluke, or simply, Zealots are better than before without the +1 upgrade. In either case, an extra 20 shields and an extra 10 HP on one zealot allow for more hits against future Zerglings. Very good.

At this point, I'm going to stop measuring HP due to the number of units, other than case 3B (2 vs. 8 with +1 Zealots)

Case D: 3-3 on both sides, Charge and crack researched
Range for HotS Zealot: 2-4 Lings
Range for New Zealot: 1-3 Lings
Average for HotS Zealot: 3 Lings survive
Average for New Zealot: 2 Lings survive
Overall: HP stops mattering as much since lings regenerate anyway, as do Protoss shields (and if this ever extends into PvT, medivac/repair). But with 10 SP we've managed to cost the Zerg a whole zergling! Not much, but remember that the 3/3 case is more relevant to bigger armies (we'll see a small sampler in Scenario IV), so every 2-7 is that much stronger, with of course the AoE behind it compounding the added damage. Also in one of the outliers for the new Zealot, one of the Zealots actually survived with 4 HP!

Now let's add in the Zergling and see how well we do. Note that in unlike Scenario I, a 2v8 lets the Zealots stand "back-to-back", i.e. there is less surface area to attack. This makes any advantage the Zealots have that much more effective since the fighting is more even, and as we saw, the 2v7 was relatively even.



Scenario III. 2 Zealots vs. 8 Zerglings

+ Show Spoiler +
Case A: 0-0 upgrades on both sides
Range for HotS Zealot: 3-4 Lings
Range for New Zealot: 2-4 Lings
Average for HotS Zealot: 4 Lings survive
Average for New Zealot: 3 Lings survive
Overall: Again, we drop by one ling.

Case B: 1-0 Zealots, 0-0 Speedlings
Range for HotS Zealot: 2 Zealot at combined 80-88 HP
Range for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at combined 80-96 HP
Average for HotS Zealot: 1 Zealot at 57 HP, 1 Zealot at 27 HP
Average for New Zealot: 1 Zealot at 74 HP, 1 Zealot at 17 HP
Overall: On average, 7 HP is gained (and of course 20 regenerating shields), but again the difference isn't as big compared to the 0-0 case. This is the last time I'll talk about HP.

Case D: 3-3 on both sides, Charge and crack researched
Range for HotS Zealot: 4-5 Lings
Range for New Zealot: 4-5 Lings
Average for HotS Zealot: 5 Lings survive
Average for New Zealot: 5 Lings survive
Overall: This wasn't even that big of a difference! Not rounding to the nearest ling, we get 4.625 before and 4.5 after, which might actually be within some margin of error. If you want to stick the outliers back in it's only a 0.1 ling difference.


So overall, while we might scratch a ling here or there, or Zealots end up with more HP (because they started with more HP), the differences here are minute, and at higher levels, the offset can still be made up with some micro or positioning (the Zealots would have lived longer against a wall). This is good news because it doesn't shake up the early game too much. The very very small difference against cracklings also seem to suggest the lategame isn't affected much, but with these small numbers it's hard to tell. Let's see what the midgame looks like in lings vs. lots. We'll look at 8 vs. 32 now.



Scenario IV. 8 Zealots vs. 32 Zerglings

In all scenarios starting with this one, average survivors in a biracial range will be counted by resources. 4 Lings = 1 Zealot, 1 Zealot = 1 Roach, 3 Zealots = 2 Hydras.

+ Show Spoiler +
Case A: 0-0 upgrades on both sides
Range for HotS Zealot: 4-9 Lings
Range for New Zealot: 6 Lings-5 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 7 Lings survive
Average for New Zealot: 1 Zealot survive
Overall: Or to be specific, 1.03125 Zealots. Now we see the full effect of the 10 shields. The zealots, on average, overcome the zerglings, but not by much. The fight is still anyone's, and can be decided by more damage dealing units like hydras, stalkers, and the like. But it's not a fight won entirely by zerg anymore. Which bodes good news for midgame Protoss... who engages with 8 Zealots, apparently.

Case B: 1-0 Zealots, 0-0 Speedlings
Range for HotS Zealot: 5-6 Zealots
Range for New Zealot: 6-8 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 5 (in all but one of the 8 cases) survive
Average for New Zealot: 7 Zealots survive
Overall: 2 whole Zealots live! That's 25% more of our army! In fact on average only one of our guys dies, and in 3 of 8 cases the whole army lives. So we now see a sizable strength bonus in the midgame.

So let's introduce Case C, since now it's applicable! This is the same setup as Case B, except now the Zealots have charge. This is to try out the suggestion for earlier charge. Let's see what happens...

Case C: 1-0 Chargelots, 0-0 Speedlings
Range for HotS Zealot: 6-7 Zealots
Range for New Zealot: 5-8 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 7 Zealots survive
Average for New Zealot: 6 Zealots survive
Overall: What ho? It seems that Charge has actually made the New Zealot weaker than its 50 SP counterpart? The real difference was 1/8 of a point (6.5 vs. 6.375), but also has to do with Charge itself. In case B, the zealots formed a convex, a parabola facing the lings. This meant it took the zerglings more time to surround the zealots as they had to go all the way around the parabola to surround. Forming a concave (manually) would be even more effective. With charge, the Zealots all race at the wave of lings, creating more surface area to attack, and losing more of their numbers. Without charge, the difference is more pronounced, however.

All we basically proved with 4C is that Charge is actually harmful up until Zerg gets ranged units. Which actually accounts for some of the losses against the cracklings in 4D.

Case D: 3-3 on both sides, Charge and crack researched
Range for HotS Zealot: 13-17 Lings
Range for New Zealot: 12-15 Lings
Average for HotS Zealot: 15 Lings survive
Average for New Zealot: 13 Lings survive
Overall: 2 Lings die. So in the lategame, not a big difference either. Great! So the big differences lie in the territory before Zerg gets the attack upgrade, as Zealots seem to beat out Speedlings a lot better now.


Zealots seem to be doing a lot better before Zerglings get their crack upgrade, where their 10 HP is instantly eroded and counts for nil. Which is nice.



Scenario V: One Zealot at the Wall vs. Infinite Zerglings

+ Show Spoiler +
This was actually really boring. The Zealot attacks lings one at a time in this case so the 10 HP just allowed two extra hits on the Zealot before he fell. The differences here are negligible, and the full results can be seen in the spreadsheet at the bottom of the page.


So let's move on to the big complaint with Zealot (and core) weakness. How do Zealots with earlier charge and more HP fight against ranged units? We have two scenarios here: Zealots going toe to toe against Roaches (without micro), where they do surprisingly well. In this case I do 16 vs 16, but the more roaches (since they are ranged and can attack in rows), the bigger the advantage. It isn't much, surprisingly, and I can actually post a given case (probably G) for different number of Zealots and roaches. The second case is 24 Zealots vs. 12 Roaches and 12 Hydras. Supply even, but Protoss is more cost efficient. This is a bit weird to simulate without stalker support, but even looking at zealots alone, we find some interesting results.

We also need some new cases because our original ones leave some gaps in the midgame, and having a 0/0 case isn't really too practical for roach/hydra.
Case E: (1/0) Zealot, (0/0) ranged Zerg. Our case B from before, and mainly focused on the roach scenario.
Case F: (1/0) Chargelot, (0/0) ranged Zerg. This is where we'll see how much early charge impacts the game. This could also be repeated with new test cases E' and F', where roaches have speed.
Case G: (2/0/2) Chargelot (0 shield), (2/2) ranged Zerg, Hydra range, Roach speed. Seeing how your average midgame on two forges does with the new Zealot.
Case H: (3/3/3) Chargelot, (3/3) ranged Zerg, Hydra range+speed, Roach speed. This one (and somewhat case G) is made redundant with the addition of the ravager/adept and a shifting meta, but we're just focusing on the improvement of the Protoss core. And thus we'll test it against it against the Zerg core that we know, and worry about the Ravager later (or let Blizzard worry about it). Besides, we're not even accounting for stalkers. This is purely a numbers test.



Scenario VI: 16 Zealots vs. 16 Roaches

We can pretend this is some early midgame poke-turned-allin (I was originally going to do 8v8, but the Zealots won that too handily without Roach range coming into much effect). Roaches win this one with kiting, but we can pretend we backed them into a wall or separated with forcefields the hydras.

+ Show Spoiler +
Case E
Range for HotS Zealot: 1-6 Zealots
Range for New Zealot: 7-10 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 5 Zealots survive
Average for New Zealot: 8 Zealots survive
Overall: Three more zealots survive, and now on average half the army makes it! A decent advantage for midgame toss compared to previously. The Roaches won in one of the HotS outliers.

Case F
Range for HotS Zealot: 8-10 Zealots
Range for New Zealot: 9-12 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 9 Zealots survive
Average for New Zealot: 11 Zealots survive
Overall: We need to look at this in tandem with Case E. So with charge alone, about 4 more zealots survive to reach the roaches (5 vs 9). With the SP alone, about 3 more zealots reach the roaches (5 vs 8). Both give the Protoss Zealots significant advantage, although the shield advantage is slightly more modest.

Case G
Range for HotS Zealot: 2 Roaches-6 Zealots
Range for New Zealot: 2-7 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 3 Zealots survive
Average for New Zealot: 5 Zealots survive
Overall: We've eliminated any possibility of Roaches surviving this particular engagement. Again, a gain of 2 Zealots, in concord with our prior addition of 2-3 in Cases E and F. Let's see if this holds a fourth time.

Case H
Range for HotS Zealot: 5-8 Zealots
Range for New Zealot: 4-9 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 5 Zealots survive
Average for New Zealot: 7 Zealots survive
Overall: Bigger range (possibly because of fuckups with Charge), but again, 2 Zealots end up surviving this encounter with the bonus shield. A total of 160 SP for 1 new Zealots' worth of health saves two lives!


In all four cases, the shield boost gets two additional Zealots to survive the encounter. The charge bonus gives slightly more of an edge, with 3-4 Zealots saved instead instead of 2-3.



Scenario VII: 24 Zealots vs. 12 Roach 12 Hydra

+ Show Spoiler +
Case E
Range for HotS Zealot: 0-5 Roach, 3-5 Hydra
Range for New Zealot: 1 Zealot - 2 Roach 7 Hydra
Average for HotS Zealot: 3 Roaches, 4 Hydralisks survive
Average for New Zealot: 2 Roaches, 4 Hydralisks survive
Overall: It kills a Roach. Bigger spread, though, with more potential to have a Zealot survive. Also note the ratio of surviving Roaches to Hydralisks in all the situations. We'll get to that in a moment.

Case F
Range for HotS Zealot: 4 Zealot - 1 Roach 1 Hydra
Range for New Zealot: 6-10 Zealots
Average for HotS Zealot: 2 Zealots survive
Average for New Zealot: 8 Zealots survive
Overall: So we can see here that a big change comes from having both charge and from having the shields. The 10 SP now nets a bonus of 6 Zealots instead of 1. I guess charge gets you to the target, and then once you're there, you're meatier. Points for an earlier charge upgrade, I guess.

Case G
Range for HotS Zealot: 2-5 Roach, 2-6 Hydra
Range for New Zealot: 4 Zealot - 3 Roach 7 Hydra
Average for HotS Zealot: 4 Roaches, 4 Hydralisks survive
Average for New Zealot: 1 Roach, 3 Hydralisks survive
Overall: Big improvement here. 3 Roaches and 1 Hydralisk down. Again, the pattern of having more hydralisks than roaches, and in some cases on the spreadsheet only hydras remain.

Case H
Range for HotS Zealot: 1-6 Roach, 3-8 Hydra
Range for New Zealot: 4 Zealot - 2 Roach 6 Hydra
Average for HotS Zealot: 3 Roaches, 6 Hydralisks survive
Average for New Zealot: 3 Hydralisks survive
Overall: The biggest marked improvement of the four cases, with 3 of each Zerg unit disappearing on average.


The biggest thing to note is that chargelots start doing surprisingly well against the roaches. In other words, they're very good at breaking down the roach wall on their own, and they almost get to the creamy nougat of hydralisks, and in some cases mow that down easily. What the proportion of hydras to roaches in the surviving groups suggests is that a small tip of balance in either direction - in this case the 10 shield points with the pre-existing charge ability - enables the Protoss to do significantly better against the Zerg core. Furthermore, the addition of Ravagers also accelerates the demise of the frontline roaches, as their ability does friendly fire.



What Have We Learned?

Adding 10 SP to Zealots doesn't change much earlygame, but allows Zealots to hold their own against midgame speedlings (especially when they're an upgrade ahead), while returning them to a relatively normal level lategame. Against Roaches and especially Roach/Hydra, the SP bonus doesn't do much until combined with Charge, when it becomes a very, very powerful addition that can swing the balance of relatively even engagements (Scenario VI is cost-even, Scenario VII is supply-even) in the favor of the Protoss. Early Charge alone also holds promise against Roach/Hydra battles, although the SP bonus is more modest in this regard and also serves as a more universal buff allowing the Zealots to deal with more threats.

This collection of data is not meant to represent actual games. They are meant to simulate some common metrics with relatively little external variables. A normal engagement against Roach/Hydra would also, for example, feature Stalkers and Sentries, but for the purpose of this potential change we would like to see how Zealots alone fare with extra shielding or an earlier charge.

This also serves to show how even tiny changes can restore the power of the Protoss core while WG is nerfed and Force Fields can now be countered by Zerg.

And most importantly, I wanted to talk about how awesome this change is while also having the numbers to back it up. Enjoy!



Spreadsheet with Test Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WTb2GoDzvGZnG8orZAT7GZrLWC-PFWy2vckgFakUzOs/edit?usp=sharing
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Roadog
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada1670 Posts
April 22 2015 08:19 GMT
#2
I've always thought about setting Zealot shields back to 60 just for Brood War nostalgia, but it's nice that someone more dedicated than myself has actually made a case for it working in LotV. Good job!
sOs fan. Zerg just seem to have the most...potential. Dubbo Robo Colo! Why I play Protoss: Stalkers, bacon, toilets and mama -- Chelsea FC
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
April 22 2015 08:43 GMT
#3
It seems like that community cares more about sc2 than Blizzard, sadface

But still, great job done!
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
moofang
Profile Joined June 2011
508 Posts
April 22 2015 08:46 GMT
#4
Interesting results!

Would be interesting to see how this affects PvT battles involving widow mines, and whether it might make chargelot-based openers more workable in that matchup again.
-Kyo-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan1926 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-22 12:49:16
April 22 2015 12:45 GMT
#5
Well, for anyone who has been playing protoss in lotv beta you know they actually nerfed the zealot rather than buffed it. Since the time value in the game has changed so have the stats such as speed since it is apparently based on time.

Basically in comparison to the zealot in hots the lotv zealot is like ~10-20% SLOWER. I asked via twitter if these values which affect stalkers and other important base units is intended but did not get a reply. There is also still the issue with acceleration and deceleration being different as well due to the time change, overall protoss mid game army control went from being all about micro and responsiveness to an even increased need for responsiveness but with worse feedback. It makes defending things like bio drops a huge huge pain in the ass, your units don't seem to listen to you half the time with all the commands @_@

Tl;Dr they should fix this issue and also see if the zealot needs any other sort of buff like this. I am hesitant on the SP change but would certainly back a different upgrade change. I absolutely hate zealots from sc2 compared to BW zealots. I'd like to control them late game instead of have it done for me... A speed buff like in BW would be a god send, speed lots in BW were basically speed lings~~
Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/
TL+ Member
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-22 13:24:45
April 22 2015 13:23 GMT
#6
On April 22 2015 21:45 -Kyo- wrote:
Well, for anyone who has been playing protoss in lotv beta you know they actually nerfed the zealot rather than buffed it. Since the time value in the game has changed so have the stats such as speed since it is apparently based on time.

Basically in comparison to the zealot in hots the lotv zealot is like ~10-20% SLOWER. I asked via twitter if these values which affect stalkers and other important base units is intended but did not get a reply. There is also still the issue with acceleration and deceleration being different as well due to the time change, overall protoss mid game army control went from being all about micro and responsiveness to an even increased need for responsiveness but with worse feedback. It makes defending things like bio drops a huge huge pain in the ass, your units don't seem to listen to you half the time with all the commands @_@

Tl;Dr they should fix this issue and also see if the zealot needs any other sort of buff like this. I am hesitant on the SP change but would certainly back a different upgrade change. I absolutely hate zealots from sc2 compared to BW zealots. I'd like to control them late game instead of have it done for me... A speed buff like in BW would be a god send, speed lots in BW were basically speed lings~~


Wait, did they actually nerf them, or is the zealot speed now ~1.63. (don't know the exact conversion value, it should be around 0.73 according to liquipedia).
Because if it is 1.63 or higher, it has not changed and from watching streams I wouldn't have noticed.
w3c.TruE
Profile Joined November 2013
Czech Republic1055 Posts
April 22 2015 13:54 GMT
#7
Maybe I'm dumb, but I'm missing description for Cases E, F, G and H.
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BaronVonOwn
Profile Joined April 2011
299 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-22 14:01:48
April 22 2015 14:00 GMT
#8
On April 22 2015 21:45 -Kyo- wrote:
Well, for anyone who has been playing protoss in lotv beta you know they actually nerfed the zealot rather than buffed it. Since the time value in the game has changed so have the stats such as speed since it is apparently based on time.

Even worse, lurkers are a really hard counter to zealots. They also cannot deal with cyclones. So it looks like Blizzard just doesn't want protoss to have any cost-efficient units unless they're part of a deathball.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
April 22 2015 14:08 GMT
#9
This is the sort of subtle buff I want to see more of.
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DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44053 Posts
April 22 2015 14:34 GMT
#10
Adding 10 SP to Zealots doesn't change much earlygame, but allows Zealots to hold their own against midgame speedlings (especially when they're an upgrade ahead), while returning them to a relatively normal level lategame.


Sounds subtle enough and sexy to me
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
April 22 2015 15:03 GMT
#11
Thanks for the enthusiasm!

On April 22 2015 17:46 moofang wrote:
Interesting results!

Would be interesting to see how this affects PvT battles involving widow mines, and whether it might make chargelot-based openers more workable in that matchup again.

I can assemble some data around that, but my prediction is that with the new Marauder, both the shields and the upgrade advantage play a more significant role. In PvZ, 10 shields allows an extra shot from a Roach or a Hydralisk before dying. In PvT, you get two shots from either a Marine or a Marauder, which, if unstimmed, takes 3 seconds, 50% longer than the roach attack. So Zealots live comparatively longer than before.

MMM's survivability comes a lot from its micro, so either I'm going to assume gosu forcefields for all the tests, or I'll actually have to kite around the MMM ball and see what it does.

Mines could be really interesting! I could see a lot of experimenting with one or more mine impacts before an engagement. By themselves, I predict the mines have the same effect. 160 HP (armor doesn't matter since it's spell damage) dies to 1 direct hit and exactly 2 hits in the splash radius. To survive a second widow mine via splash, the Protoss would need to pull out for at least 7(it should be if they keep it the same thru the conversion) seconds to let the Zealots get at least one more tick mark of shield.

On April 22 2015 21:45 -Kyo- wrote:
Well, for anyone who has been playing protoss in lotv beta you know they actually nerfed the zealot rather than buffed it. Since the time value in the game has changed so have the stats such as speed since it is apparently based on time.

Basically in comparison to the zealot in hots the lotv zealot is like ~10-20% SLOWER. I asked via twitter if these values which affect stalkers and other important base units is intended but did not get a reply. There is also still the issue with acceleration and deceleration being different as well due to the time change, overall protoss mid game army control went from being all about micro and responsiveness to an even increased need for responsiveness but with worse feedback. It makes defending things like bio drops a huge huge pain in the ass, your units don't seem to listen to you half the time with all the commands @_@

Tl;Dr they should fix this issue and also see if the zealot needs any other sort of buff like this. I am hesitant on the SP change but would certainly back a different upgrade change. I absolutely hate zealots from sc2 compared to BW zealots. I'd like to control them late game instead of have it done for me... A speed buff like in BW would be a god send, speed lots in BW were basically speed lings~~

This is interesting. So all the roach/hydra proportions are slightly skewed towards the Zerg (because more time to shoot), although in all the cases with charge enabled it shouldn't make a significant difference as the Zealot quickly closes that distance.

On April 22 2015 22:54 w3c.TruE wrote:
Maybe I'm dumb, but I'm missing description for Cases E, F, G and H.

They're posted between Scenarios V and VI in the unspoilered section. I was too lazy to write them out after that, so I just described them up there. E = B, F = C, G is a midgame scenario, H is all upgrades researched.

On April 22 2015 23:08 The_Templar wrote:
This is the sort of subtle buff I want to see more of.

This was actually inspired by the warp prism buff! That speed change actually revolutionized Protoss WP harassment. As did the Oracle buff lol
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BamBam
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
745 Posts
April 22 2015 17:29 GMT
#12
Honestly if lots are to get health buffs, I feel zlings need attack speed to compensate. Right now it is already suicidal to attack zlots with overwhelming ling forces even when the lings have an upgrade advantage. Buffing zlots even more just makes the case that lings should only be used after the hive upgrade.
"two is way better than twice as one" - artosis
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
April 22 2015 17:41 GMT
#13
On April 23 2015 02:29 Energizer wrote:
Honestly if lots are to get health buffs, I feel zlings need attack speed to compensate. Right now it is already suicidal to attack zlots with overwhelming ling forces even when the lings have an upgrade advantage. Buffing zlots even more just makes the case that lings should only be used after the hive upgrade.

Well in my 8 vs. 32 case, the fight is still anyone's. I found that the lings won when they engaged from one side, i.e. a rough version of focus firing, and you could argue that an earlier charge upgrade that Toss would get against Roaches would actually call you to switch back to lings or use both roaches and lings, since improperly controlled chargelots actually perform worse against them (they allow themselves to get surrounded much easier) than slow zealots.
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Dumbledore
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden725 Posts
April 22 2015 17:50 GMT
#14
On April 22 2015 17:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
It seems like that community cares more about sc2 than Blizzard, sadface

But still, great job done!


are you serious? I can promise you blizzards internal testing / design process is way more in depth thwn this post. You actually think they dont try anything out just cause they dont make threads on tl about it?
Have a nice day ;)
robopork
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States511 Posts
April 22 2015 18:07 GMT
#15
I've been thinking for a while that I'd like to see a slight movement speed buff for zealots to give them a little more power and micro-ability pre-charge.

This is a cool alternative, though. I wonder how much difference it makes if both sides are actively microing?
“This left me alone to solve the coffee problem - a sort of catch-22, as in order to think straight I need caffeine, and in order to make that happen I need to think straight.”
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
April 22 2015 18:15 GMT
#16
On April 23 2015 03:07 robopork wrote:
I've been thinking for a while that I'd like to see a slight movement speed buff for zealots to give them a little more power and micro-ability pre-charge.

This is a cool alternative, though. I wonder how much difference it makes if both sides are actively microing?

I was going to run a third set of tests for a pure-BW Zealot, i.e. one with speed instead of charge. Differences between it and slowlot aren't as big as you'd imagine, however. Roaches can still kite them with the speed upgrade, as can Hydras, and both can always kite Zealots on creep. This is where Forcefields come in, since even if they're destroyed by Ravagers, there'll still be a good amount of time when the Zealots have free rein on the Roaches.

Basically what you're looking at is 2.25 speed Zealot vs. (in the effective range of the Roach/Hydra) a 6.05 speed zealot. Roughly a 4-point increase. A 2.75 speed Zealot would show 1/8 of the changes we've seen via charge. So speed + SP would net, instead of a combined 6-7 bonus zealots in Scenario VI, closer to the 3 side of 2-3 that we saw with the shield upgrade. Not very helpful vs. Roach Hydra, though.
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purakushi
Profile Joined August 2012
United States3300 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-22 18:33:04
April 22 2015 18:19 GMT
#17
Give 60 shields, remove charge, give leg enhancements.
T P Z sagi
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
April 22 2015 18:23 GMT
#18
On that note, I'm going to do a similar set of test runs in PvT, but specifically two cases. One against a small stimmed marine marauder ball, and one against the same group but with a few medivacs attached. I'll be using the standard zealot and the 60 SP zealot, and also I'll switch around between the old and new marauder.

When I'm comparing different upgrades, I can also try out an early speed upgrade, and a lategame speed upgrade with charge removed. Again, no micro (unless you or someone wants to help out!), but since I don't believe Terran has an anti-FF measure in place yet, we can assume sentries. The data comparison is the more important play here, and a similar proportion should develop in the event of micro.

On April 23 2015 02:50 Dumbledore wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2015 17:43 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
It seems like that community cares more about sc2 than Blizzard, sadface

But still, great job done!


are you serious? I can promise you blizzards internal testing / design process is way more in depth thwn this post. You actually think they dont try anything out just cause they dont make threads on tl about it?


It's nice that they're finally reaching out to the community. I agree with you. This is only one of many solutions, and it's ultimately up to Blizzard what to do. But I do think Protoss core is desperately in need of strengthening, and this is one option.
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Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
April 22 2015 18:32 GMT
#19
Hey this is a good thread. +10 shields to zealots probably won't fix the issues protoss is having, but it can easily be incorporated as part of a general buff protoss patch.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
April 22 2015 18:40 GMT
#20
On April 23 2015 03:32 Plexa wrote:
Hey this is a good thread. +10 shields to zealots probably won't fix the issues protoss is having, but it can easily be incorporated as part of a general buff protoss patch.

:D

Well if there's any other proposed changes with a lot of enthusiasm I'd be happy to try them out!
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