EPTI would guess that with 60 shields, maybe one zealot could beat 5 lings, and even maybe 4 speedlings. This is the sort of data that would be more relevant for balance I think.
The Effect of the 60-Shield Zealot in PvZ - Page 2
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Geiko
France1947 Posts
I would guess that with 60 shields, maybe one zealot could beat 5 lings, and even maybe 4 speedlings. This is the sort of data that would be more relevant for balance I think. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 23 2015 03:41 Geiko wrote: I'm assuming you didn't micro the zealots for more consistent results. However, for instance, everyone knows that 1zealot beats 4 slowlings and 1 zealot + 1 probe beats 4 speedlings. I would guess that with 60 shields, maybe one zealot could beat 5 lings, and even maybe 4 speedlings. This is the sort of data that would be more relevant for balance I think. You could micro lings as well though, pulling them back after they receive two swipes of damage (at even upgrades). I recall Destiny doing it a lot early on. You're right about lack of micro. In every case other than Zealot at wall and vs. Roach Hydra, I just a-moved the two into each other. If you like, you can try it out! I can't stutter step for my life (which is also why I'm considering getting some help for my PvT tests), but anyone can easily check my results or improve on them. I'd be more than happy to see if I was getting some odd results because I was doing something wrong, or maybe if I was doing something unintentionally unrealistically (say, my Roach/Hydra positioning was bad) I used this map: http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/ instead of one of the arcade testers so I could more easily play around with the values. To adjust for the HotS Hydralisk speed upgrade I just hardcoded the value into the unit and ran it that way. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On April 23 2015 03:15 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I was going to run a third set of tests for a pure-BW Zealot, i.e. one with speed instead of charge. Differences between it and slowlot aren't as big as you'd imagine, however. Roaches can still kite them with the speed upgrade, as can Hydras, and both can always kite Zealots on creep. This is where Forcefields come in, since even if they're destroyed by Ravagers, there'll still be a good amount of time when the Zealots have free rein on the Roaches. Basically what you're looking at is 2.25 speed Zealot vs. (in the effective range of the Roach/Hydra) a 6.05 speed zealot. Roughly a 4-point increase. A 2.75 speed Zealot would show 1/8 of the changes we've seen via charge. So speed + SP would net, instead of a combined 6-7 bonus zealots in Scenario VI, closer to the 3 side of 2-3 that we saw with the shield upgrade. Not very helpful vs. Roach Hydra, though. If it's a pure BW Zealot, you should set it's speed to 3.375 instead of 2.75, because BW speedlots moved at stim speed. So Roaches could only kite them on creep. That actually strikes me as a pretty nice unit interaction Has anyone had some ideas as to what an alternate effect for Charge as an ability could be? It's pretty hard to deny that it's a boring anti-micro autocast ability right now, but it's so necessary to the game that it's been difficult to think about changing it. I thought of a 4-second boost to 3.5 (or 3.875) speed and a boost to armor and shield armor by 2, and an immunity to slow effects, so that it could be activated to either close the distance with bio balls or activated to make sure your Zealots can escape an engagment with their lives. But that's just a quick draft of an ability redesign, and it would be necessary to include it with either stim speed speedlots, or a weird new speed tier of speedlots that falls in between Roach speed and stim speed, like maybe 3.125 or 3.25. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
I'll use the 3.375 speed in my PvT tests alongside the existing charge ability (not simultaneously). | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 23 2015 06:14 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Stim speed would actually be beautiful in PvT, and the immunity to slows being an active would also be quite interesting. I'll use the 3.375 speed in my PvT tests alongside the existing charge ability (not simultaneously). Just download it on the SC2 Editor (Open > Battle.net > (Search: Unit Tester) HotS Unit Tester Modified 1.5. It's up to date in everything. I also think that 3.375 speed would be good for SC2, with Charge providing some speed manual buff to counter slows or so, to act "stim-like". Maybe we need to rebalance Concussive shells so it doesn't affect light/light bio units. It would only really affect Zealots, Lings and Hydras (mirror matchup not considered), solving the "softcounter" issue from the marauder and allowing more styles to be played. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:26 JCoto wrote: Just download it on the SC2 Editor (Open > Battle.net > (Search: Unit Tester) HotS Unit Tester Modified 1.5. It's up to date in everything. I also think that 3.375 speed would be good for SC2, with Charge providing some speed manual buff to counter slows or so, to act "stim-like". Maybe we need to rebalance Concussive shells so it doesn't affect light/light bio units. It would only really affect Zealots, Lings and Hydras (mirror matchup not considered), solving the "softcounter" issue from the marauder and allowing more styles to be played. Oh so that's how you do it... I'll probably get this done some time around the weekend. | ||
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devius26
Sweden15 Posts
On April 23 2015 03:40 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: :D Well if there's any other proposed changes with a lot of enthusiasm I'd be happy to try them out! Would you consider testing Stalkers with the old upgrade scaling? They currently only get +1 damage per weapon upgrade but in WoL beta they used to get +1 vs armor per upgrade as well. Stalkers are already very solid early and midgame units but perhaps a small buff like that could improve their late game potential. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:59 devius26 wrote: Would you consider testing Stalkers with the old upgrade scaling? They currently only get +1 damage per weapon upgrade but in WoL beta they used to get +1 vs armor per upgrade as well. Stalkers are already very solid early and midgame units but perhaps a small buff like that could improve their late game potential. This is interesting. It might actually help them hold their own against roaches (which also get +2 attack) and hydras (which get +1, and stalkers get +1 against them). So stalkers and roaches get +3 damage against each other, and the rest is all cancelled out. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 23 2015 10:20 Wildmoon wrote: If Zealot has leg upgrade like BW, wouldn't that make bio in TvP severely weaker? Right. But now mech is much stronger. And hellbats are still a thing. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:07 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: Ditto to the idea of going back to stim speed. Just FYI though, in BW, stim marines and speed zealots they had 3.15 and lurkers either had the same speed or may have actually had 3.375 (so actually faster), whereas I believe in LotV they only have 2.95 speed. Yeah, I believe the conversion is this weirdly imperfect one, where based on the speed of a worker, every unit's cooldown is something like 7.46% shorter than in BW, and their speed, once again excepting workers, is 6.9% faster. But for the sake of these tests, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to undo every speed change that Blizzard made, so it should probably just be tested at a stim speed of 3.375, or 4.6575 if you're testing it in LotV's normalized game speed values. | ||
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Rollora
2450 Posts
On April 22 2015 16:06 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: So with Warpgate weakened by warp-in time and 200% damage dealt, it would only make sense for the Protoss core to be strengthened in compensation. Is it really that much more weaker? I mean: you should just not warp in in the opponents face. I think Blizzard should reconsider warpgate entirely. Having to carefully watch for your army while it moves to the battlefield is some of the basic things you should know and do in a strategy game. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On April 23 2015 10:10 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: This is interesting. It might actually help them hold their own against roaches (which also get +2 attack) and hydras (which get +1, and stalkers get +1 against them). So stalkers and roaches get +3 damage against each other, and the rest is all cancelled out. They weren't 10+4 with more damage scaling (+1/+1). Stalkers had 8+6vs armored on beta (+1/+1 upgrading), so they were far weaker against lings, hydras, marines and mutas. Strong points to consider since the Gateway Protoss army already struggles against this kind of units, so not sure if that type of damage might be a buff or just a big nerf. That type of damage benefits only vs roaches and marauders, but makes them substantially weaker against everything else, considering that stalkers trash out Tanks the same by focus fire/Blink. So IMAO that change would be pretty much a nerf. I think that the real problem on LotV is that with the new econ models, the Zerg race would get indirectly buffed since they have a far easier time setting their poduction up, so probably, Roaches need a health nerf more than Stalkers a buff (They can be used very effectively even with their relatively low damage efficiency thanks to Blink micro, as they can scape death). Marauders are also weaker now with their double attack, but the same effect can be achieved with a minor damage nerf. I think it is quite good to have relatively weak early/midgame units and stronger units as the game advances. Marauders have been very strong, probably too much since the start of SC2. So maybe trying a different approach could help that. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On April 23 2015 11:39 varsovie wrote: I'd say yes, but just so it can have more HP than a siege TANK and resist a bit more to WM. In more than a decade of it's existence siege tank has never been a tank really so it's ok. Call it mobile artillery if you want. | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
On April 23 2015 03:19 purakushi wrote: Give 60 shields, remove charge, give leg enhancements. Do this please. Charge sucks | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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KaZeFenrir
United States37 Posts
Ill agree and say with the increased warp in time and extra damage they have been nerfed, but you can easily adjust those without affecting other match ups without flat out buffing the units HP. Just because a change means you have to play different doesn't mean it's purely a nerf either. Maybe protoss players need to learn better strategies for warp ins, where to do them, and hot to protect them. It's too early to really tell, and the fact remains zealots are still insanely powerful in PvZ and PvT. It will take more time and balance to really figure out what needs fixing where, but at best this is a bandaid fix. | ||
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xxjcdentonxx
Canada163 Posts
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