EPTLotV Balance Update Preview - May 11 - Page 13
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On May 12 2015 04:57 DinoMight wrote: People are talking like Protoss isn't the weakest race at the moment. Protoss needs to be buffed. It is the weakest race right now. And that buff has to go to a unit or another. There isn't a single Protoss unit that Terran/Zerg don't hate: Zealots (too strong, charge is bullshit,A-move unit) Stalkers (Blink imba etc) Adepts (broken as hell in high nubmers vs Terran right now) Templar (storm OP omg) - edit: apparently feedback OP too now (there is a thread about it) DTs (no explanation needed). Mothership core (imba, protoss doesn't need any defense photon overcharge OP) Disruptor (OP omg it becomes invincible!) Colossus (Dumb A-move unit, no skill) Observer (unlimited vision everywhere, map hacks) Warp Prism (warp in 25 units at a time anywhere on the map?? stupid pickup range) Immortal (Mech isn't viable, hard counter unit, stupid etc.) Oracles (coinflippy bullshit) Void Rays (OP) Tempests ("unbeatable in high numbers" why does a unit need so much range???) Carriers (dump all the interceptors whatttt??) Sorry.. I guess the Phoenix is okay. But seriously... Protoss is underperforming. So ONE of these units has to be buffed, at the very least. Would you rather an extra recall or two, or double damage Storm? More Colossus range? Void Ray upgrade vs Light? Bigger disruptors. Think about it...... The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post. The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter. First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough. Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb. I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro. Remove Guardian Shield and give the Sentry an ability that encourages a Protoss to pay attention to his Zealots' position on the battlefield/shields/HP and manually target individual ones and move them around. Then, force a Protoss to cast it not once but 5 times over the course of an engagement just to be on par with another race. Then buff the Zealot's movement speed, which will be instrumental in using the Sentry's ability effectively. Players who can't micro and multitask will be appropriately screwed, players who can will be rewarded with another consistent way to get wins that doesn't rely on any surprises or gambles. With one deft stroke, we've rebalanced the game, made Gateway compositions stronger, and introduced more micro/multitasking to Protoss units that previously had none. | ||
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wongfeihung
United States763 Posts
On May 13 2015 10:27 pure.Wasted wrote: The funny thing is that you point out exactly what the problem is in your post. The problem is that Protoss units suck. They're also ineffectual in LOTV, but that's a separate matter. First they need to not suck. Then they can be made strong enough. Making A-move units stronger is the LAST thing we should be doing in LOTV. If we hadn't learned our lesson by WOL, then we should have by HOTS. Zealots don't need buffs, they need to be changed so that PartinG and Zest can do things with them that absolutely no other Protoss in the world can. Until that is a reality, making them even stronger is just dumb. I've suggested this many times: if it's impossible to change units like the Zealot and Archon to make them more interesting (not sure what the state of the Immortal in LOTV is), then what those units need is an ability - on the Nexus, on a support caster, somewhere - to force those units to micro. Remove Guardian Shield and give the Sentry an ability that encourages a Protoss to pay attention to his Zealots' position on the battlefield/shields/HP and manually target individual ones and move them around. Then, force a Protoss to cast it not once but 5 times over the course of an engagement just to be on par with another race. Then buff the Zealot's movement speed, which will be instrumental in using the Sentry's ability effectively. Players who can't micro and multitask will be appropriately screwed, players who can will be rewarded with another consistent way to get wins that doesn't rely on any surprises or gambles. With one deft stroke, we've rebalanced the game, made Gateway compositions stronger, and introduced more micro/multitasking to Protoss units that previously had none. You mean like, replace Guardian Shield with a Shield Battery-esque ability? | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On May 13 2015 10:41 wongfeihung wrote: You mean like, replace Guardian Shield with a Shield Battery-esque ability? Sure. "Recharge target unit's shields to full" with a set mana cost that punishes miscasting. That's one option. Before LOTV was announced, I actually suggested an ability that turned Protoss units into mini-Disruptors, detonating a unit's shields to deal shields x1.5?2?3? damage. The unit might glow bright blue for a second or two first, giving T/Z time to counterplay to run away or bring down its shields. AOE on a core unit (split between two, actually), requiring micro, and allowing for counterplay. Unfortunately, instead we got a high-tier Colossus replacement that does everything in its power to limit counterplay. | ||
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jellyjello
Korea (South)664 Posts
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skylinefan
Malaysia53 Posts
On May 12 2015 03:50 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Well, I can definitely get behind those Protoss changes. I didn't even consider the possibility of abusing stasis that way though haha. While I feel these are overall good changes, I'm a tad disappointed they aren't more...severe? Maybe this is just a tweak patch and we'll get a bigger one later this month. Still hoping Blizzard goes crazy with trying new things. It also looks like they're pretty set on this silly half-patch economy. I gotta be honest, that might be a big deal breaker for me with LotV, I just hate how it makes games feel =/ Having said all that, the stuff about automated tournaments gets me really excited in my special place! 30 min cap on games for automated tournaments seems TOTALLY reasonable, we'll just have to see if "XP earned" is the best metric or not. edit: WTF at people shitting on the Recall changes? Protoss sucks right now precisely because it's so friggin' hard to defend multiple bases as early as you need them in LotV. Do you really want Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/robo units to move as fast as stimmed bio/Zerg on creep? I prefer this solution, it's more Protoss-y and doesn't require a pretty big change to all other Protoss ground units. This. Toss have fat units. Fat, lumbering units. They can't be expected to defend multiple bases at the same time with those units without the mamacore. If you don't want toss to tyrtle up every game and launch a deathball in your face every game then these changes should make you happy not the other way round. The changes here are a welcome addition to be honest. In regards to the time cap Blizzard is considering to implement, God please do. Bye bye Terrans floating their buildings into dead airspace to force a draw in a game they should've lost e.g. THAT HerO game vs Polt owh the humanityyy. I really am still not onvinced that these changes would help toss become at least on par with the other two races especially zerg but at least it is indeed a step in the right direction. Adept and Disruptors are still...somewhat unfulfilling...I mean this is the final expansion to the trilogy, the expansion for the Golden Armada...and all toss gets are a clunky one hit miss too expensive to even bother unit and a cool looking but a bit unpractical unit in the Adept. Maybe remove Colossus altogether and give Toss a new AoE unit? One can wish ^^ Anyways these are mostly welcomed changes...looking forward to the next update!^^ | ||
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jellyjello
Korea (South)664 Posts
On May 13 2015 12:44 skylinefan wrote: This. Toss have fat units. Fat, lumbering units. They can't be expected to defend multiple bases at the same time with those units without the mamacore. If you don't want toss to tyrtle up every game and launch a deathball in your face every game then these changes should make you happy not the other way round. The changes here are a welcome addition to be honest. In regards to the time cap Blizzard is considering to implement, God please do. Bye bye Terrans floating their buildings into dead airspace to force a draw in a game they should've lost e.g. THAT HerO game vs Polt owh the humanityyy. I really am still not onvinced that these changes would help toss become at least on par with the other two races especially zerg but at least it is indeed a step in the right direction. Adept and Disruptors are still...somewhat unfulfilling...I mean this is the final expansion to the trilogy, the expansion for the Golden Armada...and all toss gets are a clunky one hit miss too expensive to even bother unit and a cool looking but a bit unpractical unit in the Adept. Maybe remove Colossus altogether and give Toss a new AoE unit? One can wish ^^ Anyways these are mostly welcomed changes...looking forward to the next update!^^ Increase the Stalker hit radius by 1 while also increasing the blink cool time by 10 seconds. Change Zealot charge to movement speed increase by x2 at all times. Get rid of Colossus and bring in Reavers (make them heavy so phoenix cannot lift them). Problem fixed. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 13 2015 13:42 jellyjello wrote: Increase the Stalker hit radius by 1 while also increasing the blink cool time by 10 seconds. Change Zealot charge to movement speed increase by x2 at all times. Get rid of Colossus and bring in Reavers (make them heavy so phoenix cannot lift them). Problem fixed. Seriously couldn't agree more with this, make blink less of an "in combat" ability, compensate with perhaps a damage or +1 range upgrade at twilight along with the hit radius change. Make zealots faster to able to spread out and defend multiple bases easier, and work the Adept in somewhere in there, let Protoss be mobile without some damn teleportation gimmick. Reavers aren't going to happen, they put Disruptors in because they aren't putting Reavers in, Colossus should just be removed at this point and the Disruptor tuned appropriately. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
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lolias
35 Posts
On May 13 2015 13:47 GGzerG wrote: Just release Ladder already and then start hardcore balancing like you did in HOTS Blizzard, this is getting ridiculous! Ladder doesnt matter | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
You say this. Many people say this. And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage. | ||
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rejectedkiwi
United States8 Posts
On May 13 2015 04:35 Hider wrote: I wouldn't mind a a default speed of around 3.6 when upgraded as well (no charge). Concussive Shell should imo just be scrapped. Doesn't add anything positvely to the game imo, and removes micro possibilites in some cases. Like I have suggested since WoL add a cooldown to Concussive Shell not something extreme but just enough to give the zealots a chance. It would make terrans stutter step micro less effective if they wasted all their shots on say the first 6-8 zealots leaving the other zealots to get more swipes in. I think this would be something neat to add to the game or test around with. | ||
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lolias
35 Posts
On May 13 2015 14:35 SC2John wrote: You say this. Many people say this. And it's incorrect. Heroes of the Storm had an unofficial ladder on Hotslogs.com, and it played hugely into why myself and a lot of other people consistently played in the alpha stage. Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 13 2015 16:55 lolias wrote: Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player. you don't need to be good, you can just randomly draw Jaedong and get rekt too.  | ||
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AzureKnight
United States26 Posts
Perhaps I'd have better luck asking for an official starbow ladder? =/ | ||
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lolias
35 Posts
On May 13 2015 17:06 Big J wrote: you don't need to be good, you can just randomly draw Jaedong and get rekt too. Yeah, because he just started to play | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On May 13 2015 16:55 lolias wrote: Oh yeah, the no-matchmaking-random-heroes-random-player-rank1-versus-founderpack mmr on hotslogs. Only a retard takes that shit serious. You are good on Lotv > You get to play with other good player. Wait, when people said "there is no ladder in LotV", I always assumed that there was no matchmaking. But they're complaining that they only got Unranked matchmaking and not ranked, is that it? If so, I'm a bit disappointed in the community. That's like a new level of ladder anxiety right there :D | ||
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Hider
Denmark9377 Posts
Like I have suggested since WoL add a cooldown to Concussive Shell not something extreme but just enough to give the zealots a chance. It would make terrans stutter step micro less effective if they wasted all their shots on say the first 6-8 zealots leaving the other zealots to get more swipes in. I think this would be something neat to add to the game or test around with. it's still bad though. Imagine scenarios where you target fire an Immortal wtih Concussive. Zero counterplay due to slow. Just scrap this and compensate the Maurauder in a different way if needed. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
On May 13 2015 10:59 pure.Wasted wrote: Sure. "Recharge target unit's shields to full" with a set mana cost that punishes miscasting. That's one option. Before LOTV was announced, I actually suggested an ability that turned Protoss units into mini-Disruptors, detonating a unit's shields to deal shields x1.5?2?3? damage. The unit might glow bright blue for a second or two first, giving T/Z time to counterplay to run away or bring down its shields. AOE on a core unit (split between two, actually), requiring micro, and allowing for counterplay. Unfortunately, instead we got a high-tier Colossus replacement that does everything in its power to limit counterplay. While we don't want more a-move units nor buffs to them, I suspect protosses in general don't want even more typical click and re-use abilities like blink, force fields, storm etc. if they could instead have some passive buff that forces different movement or something else more interesting than button->click unit/area, button-click unit/area. That said, if you go for a passive speed buff for zealots instead of charge (I agree with the idea, for more micro), I don't think you can go too high with it, certainly not double (4.5). If you bring it above stim speed AND by that much when zealots already have so many hit points, I believe stutter-stepping doesn't do so much to the zealots. Zerglings die a lot faster to marines than zealots do.  . Could test it, but I doubt it'd be fair on the terran, cost-for-cost or effort-wise. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On May 13 2015 05:58 Hider wrote: Noone does that with the exception of very rare cases where you have one very guaranteed kill that is very close and instead opt to target a unit that is further away with the Mauruader. But that's a rare case. And even then, it's not an interesting form of micro. IMO real micro is related to movement of units and abilities work great when they have an impact on how you move your units but when its just random spam clicks, it's absolute pointless. Concussive removes real micro from the game as it makes it less rewarded for the enemy to move untis around. Dryads had the Slow Poison ability in WC3. They were almost the fastest unit in the game, but had relatively low damage. The poison also did not stack. I liked the unit a lot since you were encouraged to stack the poison on multiple units, which is very difficult micro and you could do hit and run attacks together with your hero. There was a lot of counterplay because it was weak to ranged units and to ensnare from raiders, and the damage was low enough you could often scare off dryads before they killed anything or even use a scroll of town portal to escape. (though note that dryads used to be completely broken before the nerf and that every player would mass the unit at the exclusion of everything else, so it shows how dangerous such an ability is). Marauders are a lot different. You never divide the targeting like you said, so that micro is non-existent. And building marauders doesn't impact your army strength negatively, so the power of the slow is not counteracted by a decrease in damage output. And units die quickly in SC2 so that even a short slow on a ranged unit is significant (maybe a crippling attack on a melee unit like the ultralisk is interesting for the game though?). In practice concussive shell mainly exists to punish protoss players from trying to take map control and it's one of the culprits that made Blizzard recall as a protoss core ability. It should be removed from the game, since it doesn't even do a good job in differentiating the marauder and marine units. I think this is another example of Blizzard adapting abilities from other games without really understanding the underlying structural issues that make abilities function properly. | ||
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