On May 13 2015 21:48 TheDwf wrote: The primitive tension between melee and ranged units is that ranged units have the initiative (thanks to their range), but should obviously be weaker in “face to face” combat when melee units manage to successfully close the distance. Hence ranged units tend towards hit & run behaviour to maximize their advantage, while melee units obviously charge to use their own advantage. What makes Charge Zealots and Cyclones so terrible is that they're the pure automation of the archetypal behaviour of their respective category. Charge is the dream of any melee unit, while infinite hit & run is the dream of any ranged unit. And that's why they should never have access to it (at least not without heavy costs/counterparties created through various barriers in the game-user architecture, e. g. monopolizing the attention through micro, having a minor impact on the grand scheme of things, etc.). That's also why burrowed Charge Ultralisks would have been a huge joke, or why automating their “melee approach” by forcing zero collision size with Zerglings would be terribad. But none of this is an accident; it's perfectly representative of the “completeness mindset” in SC2. + Show Spoiler +
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: Completeness is the natural consequence of the intrusive creationist design. Players are dispossessed from their own creative potential and only have to apply the instruction manual. But players, whatever they might say out of bad faith after defeat, do not want to apply the instructions of a manual. They want to find their own solutions within the given frame. They don't want the game to be created “solved,” they want to solve the game themselves. SC2 suffered because the “completeness of the circle of the counters” is inherently an inflationnary process leaving less and less room for the player.
Completeness is toxic for the game. Structural holes are what makes things interesting. For instance, Terran would stop being Terran if they received some metaphysical horror like the “tech reactors” from the campaign or static defence (or more brainless melee units). Having those structural holes within the architecture of the race is what defines it. Working around structural holes is players' job.
You don't play, you simply execute the automated, prepared script.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge, or ultra without fungal/some charge mecanism, the "yeah terran micro", while spamming A /right click behind your unit is not that hard, and everyone can perform, while whoever you are, if you have the zealot, you can't get the MM without charge. You ask for a strategic game, but if it's just : Take terran, master hit and run, and you can't be defeated, it's not a strategic game, but more like a "can you do that ?" "Good you win", and the Z/P is a bit like an A.I. vs you on an arcade game".
You can't say, just it's bad design, and ignore T can infinite hit and run easily if these units have not some way to catch them, they become totally useless and not worth being played. Sure making it too strong will be a mistake, but aslo too weak, that's why it's call "balance".
Many of you have wrote it. As long as Concussive shells exists, Zealots are going to be in a very bad position, unless you give some type of counterplay to it when in relative close distances; if not, it's just infinite stuttersteping. Concussive shells = remove micro. You cannot presplit or try to position like you do vs forcefields, which are btw quite discussable.
I think that many changes regarding this could be applied. First, obviously, increasing Zealot speed to a good point and maybe, giving some type of long CD, manual charge mechanic to initiate engagements by flanking or so, or just fleeing when caught off guard. Some adjustements to concussive shells would be also interesting.
Also rethinking Sentries a bit, replacing Forcefields with mini-Time Warps, reworking a bit Guardian shield to be spammed on non-massive units and giving slow-immunity, or something like that to combine with the Protoss army.
IMAO, the Sentry is a wasted opportunity to have interesting movement on casters. It's 99% the same story like HTs. You build them in a significant number, they move slow, keep them protected. It could have a bit more movement synergy with a more mobile Protoss army.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
At about 1:38:00 - 1:39:00 6(!) Thors get destroyed by 20-30 Mutas with minimal losses. Something is wrong there.
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
No, it doesn't. Try with 10 - 15 Thors, then tell me how it goes and if Mutas have a chance...
Thor's role is countering light anti-air units or zoning them out if you have short ranged units like Marines that can't deal with them quite well, and Thor certainly doesn't suck at those roles.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply..
Yeah to protect the flanks of Mech... like when you go Marine/Marauder/Medivac that kind of Mech...
Blizzard did a real number on SC2 with the Widow Mine, and I've railed against it since I go the HOTS Beta. Back then I feel like people were so awed by the new units and build orders that they thought the early game was coming back and loved it.
Now people are seeing through what Blizzard is feeding them, and realize it is just more gimmicks that don't strategic depth, they actually subtract from it.
Things like Widow Mines reduce strategic variation because your opponent, knowing Widow Mines could be an option as they are so easily accessible, is going to reduce the number of times he splits his forces because he needs to pay attention and watch for Widow Mines. They are incredibly unforgiving unlike Lurkers, where you can react to them after you've taken some damage (unless your opponent has a massive group of Lurkers, but that is a huge investment and whole different strategy). By the time you react versus Widow Mines you've already lost units unless you are carefully watching your units move across the map.
I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
On May 14 2015 07:45 Tresher wrote: I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
This is a large part of why people say this real-time "strategy" game lacks any strategic depth. At this point, for the majority of matchups there's only one viable "strategy" and the whole game is about finding out who has the better mechanics to execute it better. Nothing differentiates Starcraft as a "strategy" game compared to LoL, DOTA, CSGO etc. right now. All of these games have choices involving positioning and map objectives. In fact it could be argued that LoL and CSGO are probably more strategic right now because they offer you meaningful and viable choices with regard to weapons, champions, team comps etc.
In Brood War there was a working model. Terran going bio? No problem, build some reavers and high templar and make them cry. Going mech? Work your way up to the dreaded carrier switch, and wipe their vultures and tanks from the field, and terran will react by mass producing goliaths. Once a lot of goliaths are out and the vultures are gone, zealots become really strong but carriers are weaker. These are the dynamics I expect from Starcraft.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply..
Yeah to protect the flanks of Mech... like when you go Marine/Marauder/Medivac that kind of Mech...
Blizzard did a real number on SC2 with the Widow Mine, and I've railed against it since I go the HOTS Beta. Back then I feel like people were so awed by the new units and build orders that they thought the early game was coming back and loved it.
Now people are seeing through what Blizzard is feeding them, and realize it is just more gimmicks that don't strategic depth, they actually subtract from it.
Things like Widow Mines reduce strategic variation because your opponent, knowing Widow Mines could be an option as they are so easily accessible, is going to reduce the number of times he splits his forces because he needs to pay attention and watch for Widow Mines. They are incredibly unforgiving unlike Lurkers, where you can react to them after you've taken some damage (unless your opponent has a massive group of Lurkers, but that is a huge investment and whole different strategy). By the time you react versus Widow Mines you've already lost units unless you are carefully watching your units move across the map.
I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
Pure Mech is more than viable in TvZ and TvT. Problem is that it takes time to start, so going blindly into Reaper/Hellion/Banshee harass into Mech is quite vulnerable to all-ins and so, and recently Zergs have adapted to it quite well.
It doesn't compeltely work in TvP though. However, BioMech had been strong for a while in WoL and has been attempted from time to time with decent results (more as an opener though), as HotS seems to be more greedy and macro-heavy in openings.
A week ago Gumiho showed that BioMech (TankRaven) put PartinG, one of the best Protosses when it comes to PvT, in big problems on macro maps, and if Gumiho had teched to Ghosts earlier, it could have been really devastating in many engagements. So hybrid mech is quite effective in TvP, as it is a compositional nightmare for Protosses.. as it is for Terrans. Styles that involve a ton of upgrades and different units are difficult to be played for both players. I'd say that mixedstyle is a relatively unexplored area on TvP since it is very hard to pull off and neeed a ton of dedication and good playing.
On May 12 2015 03:58 Big J wrote: I wish they were clearer on the Broodlord change. Is it the broodlord range that goes from 9.5 to 11, or is it the broodling range that changes from 9 to 11. Because if it really is the first, that mainly helps with a-moving and all of that stuff, but isn't really a change to the broodlords range.
I dont understand your question really. am I missing something here? The broodLing range? Its a melee unit. Are you confusing this with locusts? or are you interpreting broodLing range as how long it stays alive? and then I dont even get what you say next.
On May 12 2015 03:58 Big J wrote: I wish they were clearer on the Broodlord change. Is it the broodlord range that goes from 9.5 to 11, or is it the broodling range that changes from 9 to 11. Because if it really is the first, that mainly helps with a-moving and all of that stuff, but isn't really a change to the broodlords range.
I dont understand your question really. am I missing something here? The broodLing range? Its a melee unit. Are you confusing this with locusts? or are you interpreting broodLing range as how long it stays alive? and then I dont even get what you say next.
I think he means the range at which Broodlords can launch broodlings. That doesnt have to be the same as the range broodlords deal their 35 damage.
On May 14 2015 07:45 Tresher wrote: I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
This is a large part of why people say this real-time "strategy" game lacks any strategic depth. At this point, for the majority of matchups there's only one viable "strategy" and the whole game is about finding out who has the better mechanics to execute it better. Nothing differentiates Starcraft as a "strategy" game compared to LoL, DOTA, CSGO etc. right now. All of these games have choices involving positioning and map objectives. In fact it could be argued that LoL and CSGO are probably more strategic right now because they offer you meaningful and viable choices with regard to weapons, champions, team comps etc.
In Brood War there was a working model. Terran going bio? No problem, build some reavers and high templar and make them cry. Going mech? Work your way up to the dreaded carrier switch, and wipe their vultures and tanks from the field, and terran will react by mass producing goliaths. Once a lot of goliaths are out and the vultures are gone, zealots become really strong but carriers are weaker. These are the dynamics I expect from Starcraft.
Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
I really hope they get around to really changing at least some of the core issues with protoss.
Trying to steer away from deathball play and going to multiple expands - yet then the defensive unit is a 1 of - doesnt make sense to me. Recall should really be on a massable support unit, so we could see some cool split plays.
The forced autocast on stasis trap removes a lot of strategic play from the mine. I dislike the change in terms of taking away the choice of when to activate it - though i agree that units shouldnt be removeable from combat for that long.
On May 14 2015 07:45 Tresher wrote: I know you guys talked about MMM but that doesn´t change the fact that something like this would be needed. Also if you think immediately of MMM when you think of Terran against Protoss (or in TvX matchups in general) there is something wrong with the game when there is only one strategy that you can think of.
This is a large part of why people say this real-time "strategy" game lacks any strategic depth. At this point, for the majority of matchups there's only one viable "strategy" and the whole game is about finding out who has the better mechanics to execute it better. Nothing differentiates Starcraft as a "strategy" game compared to LoL, DOTA, CSGO etc. right now. All of these games have choices involving positioning and map objectives. In fact it could be argued that LoL and CSGO are probably more strategic right now because they offer you meaningful and viable choices with regard to weapons, champions, team comps etc.
In Brood War there was a working model. Terran going bio? No problem, build some reavers and high templar and make them cry. Going mech? Work your way up to the dreaded carrier switch, and wipe their vultures and tanks from the field, and terran will react by mass producing goliaths. Once a lot of goliaths are out and the vultures are gone, zealots become really strong but carriers are weaker. These are the dynamics I expect from Starcraft.
Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
Thank you. One of the best parts of the game is how everyone has their own style. Even two players using the same units can play in such a different way that you can tell who it is without seeing their name.
On May 14 2015 14:16 weikor wrote: Youre so wrong, i dont even know where to begin - so ill just sum it up. Starcraft has a LOT of strategy, and while the same strategy - executed by two players - might look the same, the strategy can be in the detail. What time do you get X, when do you expand, move out. Aside from that, we do see a lot of different strategies, its far from the same one every game.
Broodwar faced some of the same issues as starcraft 2. Nostalgia might have you believe it was such a perfect game - but going bio vs protoss was, for the most part - as bad as going mech in Sc2.
If that's what makes a game strategic, then Mario 3 is the greatest strategy game of all time. You've gotta time when to jump over those pipe plants, cannonballs, lava bursts, etc. Execute a jump poorly and you fall off the map. Every game has elements of execution and timing and it's not special. What makes strategy games different from every other game is that you build and control an army, and make resource investments, and that your choices in these areas will be a huge if not deciding factor in the game. I can't believe I need to explain all this. Anyway my complaint is that Starcraft 2 presents a series of false choices in the majority of matchups and the only skill is doing everything faster and more optimally than other players. If I wanted that I'd go play Mario Kart, it does a much better job at that kind of gameplay.
As for Brood War. It's not "nostalgia" because I still play the game.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Infinite hit an run is exactly what have Marinne/Marauder vs zealot without charge,
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Lol, and you imagine 30 mutas is free ? Zerg plants spire, and 30 mutas appears ? Then you can make millions lings (of zerg have infinite free larvas too, after paying 30 larvas you have again 50larvas for 100zerglings), and then free tech mass ultra (cause mutas are so free, you have again 3000/2000 for 10 ultras after/uprgrade infestpit/hive/ultraden/amorupgrade)...
If it's happened it's you totally outmacroed,and you deserve to lose.
But maybe your point is just : T must never lose, even outmacroed, less army value, less economy, if not it's design issue and T need more heavy cheap hard counter that can kill thousands of Zerg units...
You must have the missed the critical moment in SC2 history when our French savior, Adelscott, said that Gateway units alone not only could compete with, but could easily defeat MM in the early game.
He then went about proving that vs the greatest SC2 player ever, IMMVP in the first round of the TSL3. And it was a shocking upset.
That was before David Kim (Satan) cursed the land with widow mines.
Well we wanted a spider mine like ability to protet our flanks better for Mech.But no Sa.. uh David Kim refused to change the Thor and deided to make the Mine able to shoot air and make it also pretty random and take way too much supply. (to be fair they also changed the mine so it doesnt get killed before it deals damage right?) Thats why I really like the Concept of the new Terran Unit so stuff like this does not happen anymore and the thor gets finally a change(sorry don´t know how to make timestamps :
There is about 30+ mutas vs 6 thors, with best micro. When 3 000/3 000 with micro kills 1 800/1200 without micro at all, the only problem is your terran bias.
Best Micro = Making a beeline for Units they should not engage then press "hold position" to negate splash. Yeah best Micro ever -_- . Doesn´t change the fact that the Thor sucks at his role.
I mean the best micro you can do in this position, opposed with staking them which would allow these 6 thors to kill the 30+mutas.
Thor don't sucks at all, just Terran like you wants to just make 1 thor and kills every mutas in the world, Just make a fight with the same amont of mineral/gaz : thor vs mutas, you will see if thors don't counters mutas...
Yes it does. A Unit that is supposed to counter Mass light air Units and doesn´t fulfil this role sucks. But its nice that you judge me just by looking at my post. Having 90 supply of Units like the guy above suggested to counter just 20-30 Mutas is just crazy. You cant be asking to catch a 4 movement speed unit with 1.88 speed. Also the Thor is a terrible Unit to mass cause of the High supply. Yes you can sac SCVs but theres also the problem with long build time. A Thor takes 60 secs to build. If I want to have 10-15 like suggested thats like 10-15 minutes wasted just to mass one Unit. In that time the Zerg can Tech switch several times or maybe even overrun me before.You could also ask me to build BCs instead that would be almost the same.
Think about it. And if you are finished with it think about it again. Theres a problem with this Unit and Blizz knows about it. Theres a reason they want to bring a new Anti-Air Unit with splash. And if it turns out to be better at its job they need to change the Thor too.
Just try 10 thors vs 30 mutas, 60 supply vs 60, 3000/2000 vs 3000/3000. With like 5 factory with tech lab, you can make 10 thors in 2 minutes (and it's not some real minute but 2 x43s), not mention you can help them with raven/tourett/vcs repair/vikings/WM and so need less thor. Hilarous you complain about supply effectivity when you have mules...
The point is that Terran doesn't play like zerg when it comes to expensive units. It's easy to say 10 thors vs 30 Mutas but that's a huge investment of time and resources. You have to build factories with tech labs as well as a supporting army and during all that deal with an enemy. This isn't a game where you just MAKE units and that's that.
So okay cool we make 10 Thors and they wipe out 30 or 60 Muta, then what? You build a swarm of lings with your massive bank of minerals and just start flooding them into the Terran army, or base. Or maybe you've been banking for ultra. Whichever suits you, and it's fine, your race is meant to play that way.
It's not that the Thor sucks at its job en más, because sure a lot of units are great in numbers. It's that the Thor has been type cast since WoL to do a job they never really were meant to do. That's why they wanted to get rid of them for warhounds during the beta for hots: give Terran a cheaper more effective mobile anti air like the Goliath was. They are supposed to be a siege breaker, tip of the spear type unit but they only fulfill that role in tvt because they are slow, don't deal with inexpensive units well (they have no ground aoe like the other ground massive units) and their anti air is easily countered and hard to support with the rest of a Terran army.
The problem at the end of the day is they don't know what they want from mech. It's too powerful so it needs to have serious weakness and drawback, but they have also built in units and mechanics that hard counter mech so much as to make it not as reliable and viable as bio. They also keep trying to make it so biomech is the better choice, but much is too slow and wonky for people to really want to use. That's why tanks disappeared when mines appeared. The tank is a much better unit but the speed and effort it takes to properly use them and the amount of hard counters make them a huge hassle and ineffective when compared to the cheap and gimmicky mine. Sure you're rolling a dick whenever you use a mine but it allows you to stay mobile and offensive and it is anti air. Just know that Terran hate mines too, they just use them because there's nothing better or as effective.
Lol, and you imagine 30 mutas is free ? Zerg plants spire, and 30 mutas appears ? Then you can make millions lings (of zerg have infinite free larvas too, after paying 30 larvas you have again 50larvas for 100zerglings), and then free tech mass ultra (cause mutas are so free, you have again 2000/3000 for 10 ultras after/uprgrade infestpit/hive/ultraden/amorupgrade)...
If it's happened it's you totally outmacroed,and you deserve to lose.
But maybe your point is just : T must never lose, even outmacroed, less army value, less economy, if not it's design issue and T need more heavy cheap hard counter that can kill thousands of Zerg units...
Can you stop derailing good discussions and intelligent posts with your vindictive racial warfare mindset? This is the LotV beta forum, the goal is to build a better game, not to rehash irrelevant rancors. Thanks.
EPT
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