On April 06 2015 21:59 Musicus wrote: They need to change the sound of the attack animation, doesn't sound scary at all, nobody will build it.
I'm only half joking here . The sound is really shitty compared to BW.
Attack, death, and burrow sounds all need to be improved.
Same can be said for many other SC2 units.
Each unit needs to feel powerful and unique.
BW sounds are so iconic and awesome, you get things like Sadly, SC2 will never have that.
Not only subjective but unnecessary too.
Subjective, sure. I understand not everyone agrees with me on that. I just know after playing BW for a few days, the sounds stuck and were happily ingrained in my head. After playing SC2 for weeks/months/years, things are not nearly as memorable.
Unnecessary? It's also unnecessary for SC2 to have the graphics that it has. SC2 definitely has good merits to it, but I am just suggesting [relatively easy] improvements to the feel of the game. There is a huge difference in the quality of the audio feedback.
I know many others agree. Anyway, wrong thread to discuss, and it has been discussed at length. I just wanted to add to the other user's thoughts.
A lot of the sounds for the LotV units are placeholders. While the Lurker probably just uses sounds and assets from WoL and HotS, mayble Blizzard will improve it when they give the other units a pass of polishing.
On April 07 2015 02:32 eviltomahawk wrote: A lot of the sounds for the LotV units are placeholders. While the Lurker probably just uses sounds and assets from WoL and HotS, mayble Blizzard will improve it when they give the other units a pass of polishing.
Not sure still if I'm crazy or not, but I believe they have changed the queen and zergling noises slightly, I like them more so I hope they stay. Hopefully someone can confirm/deny this.
On April 06 2015 14:42 ETisME wrote: A lot of people before beta have said that lurker just won't work in sc2 and we are seeing it now. I hope with some tweak, it can at the very least be useful in one match up
They are incorrect. I have been using lurkers to great effect in zvp. I don't do it versus mech because I am prety sure it's bad, but versus bio they aren't that bad either. People don't use them because they prefer the easier way to win atm with ravager rushes.
Still think they are correct, Lurkers are retarded easy to outmicro. But you are right with people going for the easy way atm. But Imo Protoss is just not used to this sort of micro which is why Lurkers work rather well against them running almost head on into them. And the fact that Disruptors do pretty bad against them.
In theory banelings are super easy to outmicro as well, just move them marines back right? Yet we see banelings constantly get great hits.
It's not that lurkers need to be good alone, it's the synergy. Lurker / ling(as one example) could be a solid transiiton compared to ling/bling thats risky. But right now Lurkers need that upgrade to be good(it seems) which makes other tech choices just much better.
On April 06 2015 22:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:2. However, if roach/hydra is being countered, half the time it's because Protoss has a robo and can start producing units that happen to counter both of them (immortal/ observer/ disruptor/ colossi). These counter lurkers too, so why would you transition into something that doesn't force the opponent to create a new unit composition?
Just an FYI from playing quite a bit of the custom alpha map... Robo units don't seem to counter lurker at all. Quite the opposite in fact! Not only do lurkers out range the colossus, but the tendency for colossus to stand on top of other allied units causes every lurker shot to be even more cost effective as it hits the colossus in addition to the units underneath it. Immortals no longer have hardened shield, so they take the full damage from the lurkers, including their significant bonus damage to armored. While it is true that observers are important to fighting against lurkers, as Blade55555 pointed out disruptors don't completely wipe out lurker positions that are spread out appropriately.
On April 06 2015 22:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:2. However, if roach/hydra is being countered, half the time it's because Protoss has a robo and can start producing units that happen to counter both of them (immortal/ observer/ disruptor/ colossi). These counter lurkers too, so why would you transition into something that doesn't force the opponent to create a new unit composition?
Just an FYI from playing quite a bit of the custom alpha map... Robo units don't seem to counter lurker at all. Quite the opposite in fact! Not only do lurkers out range the colossus, but the tendency for colossus to stand on top of other allied units causes every lurker shot to be even more cost effective as it hits the colossus in addition to the units underneath it. Immortals no longer have hardened shield, so they take the full damage from the lurkers, including their significant bonus damage to armored. While it is true that observers are important to fighting against lurkers, as Blade55555 pointed out disruptors don't completely wipe out lurker positions that are spread out appropriately.
Lurkers have flat 30 damage, while Immortals are doing 50 damage to the armored units. Immortals can use their new active hardened shield and just wipe them out even though it lasts for 3 seconds. I can't see any situation where Lurkers would beat Immortals except if you have something like Blinding Cloud/Fungal Growth and Lurkers are upgraded with +3 range.
Lurkers aren't bad per se, but their use so far seems a lot more limited than a use of other high tech units like Swarm Hosts, Mutalisks etc. I've been watching a lot of streams and I've seen more new Swarm Hosts than Lurkers, literally. That can definitely change in the future through the buffs/nerfs of some hard counter units, but Lurkers don't seem to do much against Immortals/Cyclones/Siege Tanks(especially with Medivacs)/Marauders/Ravagers. Every single of these units just wreck Lurkers so far. Them being really hard to get doesn't help their case at all.
On April 06 2015 22:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:2. However, if roach/hydra is being countered, half the time it's because Protoss has a robo and can start producing units that happen to counter both of them (immortal/ observer/ disruptor/ colossi). These counter lurkers too, so why would you transition into something that doesn't force the opponent to create a new unit composition?
Just an FYI from playing quite a bit of the custom alpha map... Robo units don't seem to counter lurker at all. Quite the opposite in fact! Not only do lurkers out range the colossus, but the tendency for colossus to stand on top of other allied units causes every lurker shot to be even more cost effective as it hits the colossus in addition to the units underneath it. Immortals no longer have hardened shield, so they take the full damage from the lurkers, including their significant bonus damage to armored. While it is true that observers are important to fighting against lurkers, as Blade55555 pointed out disruptors don't completely wipe out lurker positions that are spread out appropriately.
Lurkers have flat 30 damage, while Immortals are doing 50 damage to the armored units. Immortals can use their new active hardened shield and just wipe them out even though it lasts for 3 seconds. I can't see any situation where Lurkers would beat Immortals except if you have something like Blinding Cloud/Fungal Growth and Lurkers are upgraded with +3 range.
Lurkers aren't bad per se, but their use so far seems a lot more limited than a use of other high tech units like Swarm Hosts, Mutalisks etc. I've been watching a lot of streams and I've seen more new Swarm Hosts than Lurkers, literally. That can definitely change in the future through the buffs/nerfs of some hard counter units, but Lurkers don't seem to do much against Immortals/Cyclones/Siege Tanks(especially with Medivacs)/Marauders/Ravagers. Every single of these units just wreck Lurkers so far. Them being really hard to get doesn't help their case at all.
Lurkers already counter mass light units such as marines/zealots/zerglings. Why do Lurkers need to counter every single unit? Besides, Lurkers is just one piece in the army composition, and it already does its role very well.
I would like to see the Lurker modified to allow more counter micro. In Broodwar, you could micro one or two marines against Lurkers but that was it. In large army fights, there was no away to avoid taking damage from lurkers. It would be better for gameplay if the movement speed of the spines were slowed and there was a clear indicator in the direction the spines would be going.
Also, the seismic spines upgrade seems to be very unzerglike. Zerg units in general are suppose to be fast but short ranged. Seismic spines should be replaced with a speed upgrade for the lurker.
On the few occasions I have seen them they looked decently strong. I think the ravager is so good right now it's kind of eclipsing it.
I agree that they should just consolidate that upgrade with the tech structure if for no other reason than to encourage people to use them and see how they shake out. If that proves to be too strong (and I don't think it will) they can always revert the change once more time has been spent testing them.
Like some of the more interesting new stuff, it's not immediately obvious what the best way to use them is and, for that reason, it's probably too early to say that they're under-powered. Why build a complicated positional unit when the ravager is so reliable and straightforward?
On April 06 2015 22:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:2. However, if roach/hydra is being countered, half the time it's because Protoss has a robo and can start producing units that happen to counter both of them (immortal/ observer/ disruptor/ colossi). These counter lurkers too, so why would you transition into something that doesn't force the opponent to create a new unit composition?
Just an FYI from playing quite a bit of the custom alpha map... Robo units don't seem to counter lurker at all. Quite the opposite in fact! Not only do lurkers out range the colossus, but the tendency for colossus to stand on top of other allied units causes every lurker shot to be even more cost effective as it hits the colossus in addition to the units underneath it. Immortals no longer have hardened shield, so they take the full damage from the lurkers, including their significant bonus damage to armored. While it is true that observers are important to fighting against lurkers, as Blade55555 pointed out disruptors don't completely wipe out lurker positions that are spread out appropriately.
Lurkers have flat 30 damage, while Immortals are doing 50 damage to the armored units. Immortals can use their new active hardened shield and just wipe them out even though it lasts for 3 seconds. I can't see any situation where Lurkers would beat Immortals except if you have something like Blinding Cloud/Fungal Growth and Lurkers are upgraded with +3 range.
Lurkers aren't bad per se, but their use so far seems a lot more limited than a use of other high tech units like Swarm Hosts, Mutalisks etc. I've been watching a lot of streams and I've seen more new Swarm Hosts than Lurkers, literally. That can definitely change in the future through the buffs/nerfs of some hard counter units, but Lurkers don't seem to do much against Immortals/Cyclones/Siege Tanks(especially with Medivacs)/Marauders/Ravagers. Every single of these units just wreck Lurkers so far. Them being really hard to get doesn't help their case at all.
Lurkers already counter mass light units such as marines/zealots/zerglings. Why do Lurkers need to counter every single unit? Besides, Lurkers is just one piece in the army composition, and it already does its role very well.
I agree with you that they shouldn't be countering every unit in the game, my point is that these units I've listed are standard in LOTV in every match, and Lurkers are not standard just because they are hard to get while at the same time doesn't do much outside of countering those light units and as such they are not so desirable units right now.
About role, no they are not doing their role very well. Lurker role isn't anti-light unit, but siege unit that is zone control unit at the same time, and they are pretty much failing at both. You are just better of with Ravagers or even new Swarm Hosts as siege units and they aren't doing that great at zone controlling when half of the units in every matchup can just roll over them. The biggest problem here is classic "hard-counter" design that SC2 has and you need to buff them quite a bit for them to overcome that.
On April 06 2015 22:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:2. However, if roach/hydra is being countered, half the time it's because Protoss has a robo and can start producing units that happen to counter both of them (immortal/ observer/ disruptor/ colossi). These counter lurkers too, so why would you transition into something that doesn't force the opponent to create a new unit composition?
Just an FYI from playing quite a bit of the custom alpha map... Robo units don't seem to counter lurker at all. Quite the opposite in fact! Not only do lurkers out range the colossus, but the tendency for colossus to stand on top of other allied units causes every lurker shot to be even more cost effective as it hits the colossus in addition to the units underneath it. Immortals no longer have hardened shield, so they take the full damage from the lurkers, including their significant bonus damage to armored. While it is true that observers are important to fighting against lurkers, as Blade55555 pointed out disruptors don't completely wipe out lurker positions that are spread out appropriately.
Lurkers have flat 30 damage, while Immortals are doing 50 damage to the armored units. Immortals can use their new active hardened shield and just wipe them out even though it lasts for 3 seconds. I can't see any situation where Lurkers would beat Immortals except if you have something like Blinding Cloud/Fungal Growth and Lurkers are upgraded with +3 range.
Lurkers aren't bad per se, but their use so far seems a lot more limited than a use of other high tech units like Swarm Hosts, Mutalisks etc. I've been watching a lot of streams and I've seen more new Swarm Hosts than Lurkers, literally. That can definitely change in the future through the buffs/nerfs of some hard counter units, but Lurkers don't seem to do much against Immortals/Cyclones/Siege Tanks(especially with Medivacs)/Marauders/Ravagers. Every single of these units just wreck Lurkers so far. Them being really hard to get doesn't help their case at all.
Lurkers already counter mass light units such as marines/zealots/zerglings. Why do Lurkers need to counter every single unit? Besides, Lurkers is just one piece in the army composition, and it already does its role very well.
I agree with you that they shouldn't be countering every unit in the game, my point is that these units I've listed are standard in LOTV in every match, and Lurkers are not standard just because they are hard to get while at the same time doesn't do much outside of countering those light units and as such they are not so desirable units right now.
About role, no they are not doing their role very well. Lurker role isn't anti-light unit, but siege unit that is zone control unit at the same time, and they are pretty much failing at both. You are just better of with Ravagers or even new Swarm Hosts as siege units and they aren't doing that great at zone controlling when half of the units in every matchup can just roll over them. The biggest problem here is classic "hard-counter" design that SC2 has and you need to buff them quite a bit for them to overcome that.
You can do this with proper support. You should never be in a situation where it's immortals versus Lurkers. It should be Lurkers/hydra/roach/ravager (or hydra/ling/lurker, w/e composition you use) and protoss would have a few immortals at most.
Same with zvt, you aren't going to be doing lurker unsupported versus Marauders unsupported. You will have ling/bane (at least roach/hydra) to support.
Zerg is always given one unit that takes time to really find its place in the meta. Terran always gets a unit that is considered relatively OP at release/in the beta, and Protoss is generally left with their dick in their hands and a new castable ability.
It has been years since a relevant pro touched a lurker, and as much as I am sure it is like riding a bike its use/where it fits into the meta.build is not readily apparent. Look at infestors in WoL, Swarm Hosts in HotS, the logic of going from well I'm going to get a roach warren in an established build and I can make a good unit from Roaches, I am just going Ravager is far and away more sound than say opening hydra ling and rushing lurkers.
It'll find a place, just a matter of time. The question is how to spend the gas to get from A to B without dying.
I get the feeling that lurkers will suffer from many of the same issues siege tanks do. There are just way too many counters to them in SC2. At least they got an hp boost, though.
On April 06 2015 22:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:2. However, if roach/hydra is being countered, half the time it's because Protoss has a robo and can start producing units that happen to counter both of them (immortal/ observer/ disruptor/ colossi). These counter lurkers too, so why would you transition into something that doesn't force the opponent to create a new unit composition?
Just an FYI from playing quite a bit of the custom alpha map... Robo units don't seem to counter lurker at all. Quite the opposite in fact! Not only do lurkers out range the colossus, but the tendency for colossus to stand on top of other allied units causes every lurker shot to be even more cost effective as it hits the colossus in addition to the units underneath it. Immortals no longer have hardened shield, so they take the full damage from the lurkers, including their significant bonus damage to armored. While it is true that observers are important to fighting against lurkers, as Blade55555 pointed out disruptors don't completely wipe out lurker positions that are spread out appropriately.
Lurkers have flat 30 damage, while Immortals are doing 50 damage to the armored units. Immortals can use their new active hardened shield and just wipe them out even though it lasts for 3 seconds. I can't see any situation where Lurkers would beat Immortals except if you have something like Blinding Cloud/Fungal Growth and Lurkers are upgraded with +3 range.
Lurkers aren't bad per se, but their use so far seems a lot more limited than a use of other high tech units like Swarm Hosts, Mutalisks etc. I've been watching a lot of streams and I've seen more new Swarm Hosts than Lurkers, literally. That can definitely change in the future through the buffs/nerfs of some hard counter units, but Lurkers don't seem to do much against Immortals/Cyclones/Siege Tanks(especially with Medivacs)/Marauders/Ravagers. Every single of these units just wreck Lurkers so far. Them being really hard to get doesn't help their case at all.
Lurkers already counter mass light units such as marines/zealots/zerglings. Why do Lurkers need to counter every single unit? Besides, Lurkers is just one piece in the army composition, and it already does its role very well.
I agree with you that they shouldn't be countering every unit in the game, my point is that these units I've listed are standard in LOTV in every match, and Lurkers are not standard just because they are hard to get while at the same time doesn't do much outside of countering those light units and as such they are not so desirable units right now.
About role, no they are not doing their role very well. Lurker role isn't anti-light unit, but siege unit that is zone control unit at the same time, and they are pretty much failing at both. You are just better of with Ravagers or even new Swarm Hosts as siege units and they aren't doing that great at zone controlling when half of the units in every matchup can just roll over them. The biggest problem here is classic "hard-counter" design that SC2 has and you need to buff them quite a bit for them to overcome that.
You can do this with proper support. You should never be in a situation where it's immortals versus Lurkers. It should be Lurkers/hydra/roach/ravager (or hydra/ling/lurker, w/e composition you use) and protoss would have a few immortals at most.
Same with zvt, you aren't going to be doing lurker unsupported versus Marauders unsupported. You will have ling/bane (at least roach/hydra) to support.
Sure, I just don't see what exactly they are achieving that other units aren't while costing much less. You could replace Banelings with them in ZvT against Bio, but I see Lurkers as better defensive tool(even if that compared with Banelings on creep) while Banelings are better used offensively, since it is really hard to close the gap with Lurkers when Marines and Marauders are constantly stimmed kiting them while killing your other units with their insane dps.
Also even if Lurkers are having support, Ravagers, Cyclones and Disruptors can definitely snipe them.
Lurkers are rapidly becoming the carriers of Wings of Liberty.
Lol nope. Lurkers in ZvT are awesome when they go bio. Still useful to defend against hellion runbys or hellbat drops. Lurkers are actually incredible combined with ravager/roach for ZvP. They try to get close to the lurkers, you can bomb them with ravagers. ZvZ they're kind of useless because ZvZ is just Ravager vs Ravager anyway...
Zerg is always given one unit that takes time to really find its place in the meta. Terran always gets a unit that is considered relatively OP at release/in the beta, and Protoss is generally left with their dick in their hands and a new castable ability.
Actually it was the reverse at WOL release. Terran was hopelessly OP but part of the balance issues were hidden because proper Marine control wasn't fully explored. Zergs on the other hand had a much more "modern" style by early WOL release than terran did (you can watch some of the old GSL vods and it become apparent). It also took roughly a year before terrans realized they should go reactor hellion vs zerg. Until that point in time, all terran openings vs zerg were kind coinflippy.
EPT
. The sound is really shitty compared to BW.
