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Canada13389 Posts
In SC2 workers mine on average 42 minerals a minute. Due to worker pairing though 16 workers is always the most efficient number on base.
So always have 2 workers per patch due to the ai for max efficiency (I.e. no wasted time bouncing between patches).
So you want 16 workers then when the 750 mines out you want 8 and you want another base +8 workers to saturate it. Then you want a 4th for when the nat 750 mines out but by this time the main is probably mining out fully so dont make more workers for minerals.
I guess if you want 3 base hots econ you need 4 bases by 6:30 in LotV. This actually would give you 3.5 base hots econ in LotV if you fully sat the Nat third and fourth with 16 on min and 8 in the main.
But I really hate this economy because its so counter intuitive and it punishes you for not having bases.
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For those interested, the next round of beta keys will be served up sometime around 16th - 19th April
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That's much longer than I expected >_>.
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On April 05 2015 00:58 Schroedinger wrote:
Flying unit (built with the starport).
Air To Air high fire rate but low damage
Ability : switch the damage to Air to Ground with big range (9) but unable to move (still in the air)
Idea behind the unit : defending against mass mutas/phoenix and forcing engagement
There is no mention of it being on the ground.
I kind of like this concept...could be cool.
I just caught the David Kim interview in the English vod (http://www.twitch.tv/wcs/b/646085580, question starts around 9:08:00) and there were a few more details:
Flying unit (built with the starport, can be double produced via reactors).
Costs about 100 resources more than a banshee
Moves fast
Decent health
Has AOE air-to-air damage 6(?) range
Ability: Transforms, losing air-to-air attack and becoming stationary, gain a single target air-to-ground with siege (9) range
Design goal is to allow terrans an additional aggressive option for both mech and bio in late game TvZ while still keeping mutas viable in match up.
In internal testing, they've noticed that in low numbers, the new unit can be sniped by muta hit-and-runs. However once a critical mass is reached, then the zerg has to transition from mutas to fungal growth, corruptors, etc.
Overall, it seems like an improved BW Corsair for Terran. Fun times.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
In SC2 workers mine on average 42 minerals a minute. Due to worker pairing though 16 workers is always the most efficient number on base.
That's not true at all. It depends widely on the mineral positions. There are close and far patches (not always the same amount per base) and the distances are different map to map, even spawn position to spawn position in a way that affects the amount of income that you can get with X amount of workers. Some close patches are close close patches, some others are far close patches, some far patches are far far patches, some are close far patches etc. There's not a very good distance snap, -particularly- when they're placed at any kind of angle
depending on the position - just out of common patch positions here, there are some fucked up ones - workers usually mine about 30-55% of the patch capacity each. Going from 4 workers to 8, you can't double your income on many bases because the close patches are a bit too close and the first worker gets more minerals than it's "supposed" to, blocking the second one.
On some other patches, two workers might mine 45% of capacity each (for 90%) - and the third worker might just get that last 10%.
On another, they might mine only 35% each (70%), so the third worker gets 30%. It's HIGHLY variable and one of the most silly things to change map to map and spawn position to spawn position, to not have a standard for i mean. It's not just close patch and far patch.
If you have one of those patches where a worker can only mine it 33% of the time, then you could have 14 workers on that base and worker 15, 16 and 17 going onto that last patch will have exactly the same efficiency. By that logic, you should stop at 14 if that mineral per minute per worker is too low for you, or go all the way to 17.
On one close patch you might get 450 minerals in 10 minutes, on another you might get 540 - it just changes sooooooo much because of where someone clicked it for that particular spawn position on the map editor.
There are literally positions on some of the old WOL maps where you can say for sure, if he plays as well as you do, your warpgate in 4gate vs 4gate pvp would finish ~5-10 game seconds earlier - due to nothing more than mineral position imbalance. Some of your close patches are closer than his. You can play on the slowest game speed on each spawn position, mineral stack perfectly and you'll see income diverge by a consistent and significant amount.
Generalist statements are good for basic learning, on the surface it's true but deep down it's not at all. 2 workers per patch is a general rule for efficiency but nothing more
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sorry if that's way too ranty, a little part of me has been going crazy hearing people talk about "16 workers on minerals is always the most efficient, 24 is always the max income" for the last 5 years >__>
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On April 06 2015 14:58 TiberiusAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2015 00:58 Schroedinger wrote:
Flying unit (built with the starport).
Air To Air high fire rate but low damage
Ability : switch the damage to Air to Ground with big range (9) but unable to move (still in the air)
Idea behind the unit : defending against mass mutas/phoenix and forcing engagement
There is no mention of it being on the ground.
I kind of like this concept...could be cool. I just caught the David Kim interview in the English vod ( http://www.twitch.tv/wcs/b/646085580, question starts around 9:08:00) and there were a few more details: Flying unit (built with the starport, can be double produced via reactors). Costs about 100 resources more than a banshee Moves fast Decent health Has AOE air-to-air damage 6(?) range Ability: Transforms, losing air-to-air attack and becoming stationary, gain a single target air-to-ground with siege (9) range Design goal is to allow terrans an additional aggressive option for both mech and bio in late game TvZ while still keeping mutas viable in match up. In internal testing, they've noticed that in low numbers, the new unit can be sniped by muta hit-and-runs. However once a critical mass is reached, then the zerg has to transition from mutas to fungal growth, corruptors, etc. Overall, it seems like an improved BW Corsair for Terran. Fun times.
Yep its a good role (though I had imagined that a reworked Thor + Viking good fulfill the same thing - but I take this). Blizzard has always been good at identifying needed unit roles, however, their weakness has always been the execution. So I am interested in seeing how this works out.
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Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^
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On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^
To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers.
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On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity
I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things.
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On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things.
Oh, yeah. They are totally broken.
But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus).
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Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
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On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
Definitely a complaint I have. If you're not paying super close attention, it's actually quite hard to see the attack in game =/
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I think with "next week" he means this week (I think he posted it on a sunday), so 9 april - 11 april.
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On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers.
Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time.
On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus).
Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it).
On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes.
- I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go :
1) the attack is indeed not visible enough.
2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator.
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yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv
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On April 07 2015 04:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers. Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time. Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus). Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it). Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes. - I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go : 1) the attack is indeed not visible enough. 2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator.
I'm a middle of the pack gold/plat player in HotS, for what it's worth, and I've played a few folks already that I've absolutely crushed so I think there already are a wide range of skills in.
On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv
Same =/
Feels like no matter how early I take my third, I always start hearing that my mineral fields are being depleted while the third base is building -_-
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On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv
Yeah, the economic model is now expand or die instead of risk expanding for a benefit 
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On April 07 2015 04:40 purakushi wrote:Yeah, the economic model is now expand or die instead of risk expanding for a benefit
One thing I think it is going to do a good job of though is making all ins feel more like all ins.
How many times in WOL and HOTS did we see attacks that should be all ins (from every race really) that did some damage but didn't kill the opponent, and the all inner regroups and goes for round 2,3 and sometimes even more because they were still mining their main and natural.
Now you might get 1 or 2 good pushes with an all in but if you don't kill the opponent or don't do enough damage to expand behind it safely without fear of a counter push then you are going to go broke fast and die a horrible death.
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On April 07 2015 04:40 purakushi wrote:Yeah, the economic model is now expand or die instead of risk expanding for a benefit
which is really hard to do in alot of the matchups, expanding in pvz is extremely hard due to the cost efficiency of zerg units
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EPT
