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On April 07 2015 04:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 04:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers. Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time. On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus). Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it). On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes. - I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go : 1) the attack is indeed not visible enough. 2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator. I'm a middle of the pack gold/plat player in HotS, for what it's worth, and I've played a few folks already that I've absolutely crushed so I think there already are a wide range of skills in. Same =/ Feels like no matter how early I take my third, I always start hearing that my mineral fields are being depleted while the third base is building -_-
What race you play? HuK almost lost to gold zerg because ravager is insanely broken
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On April 07 2015 19:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 18:40 deacon.frost wrote:On April 07 2015 05:28 Hider wrote:On April 07 2015 05:08 TT1 wrote:On April 07 2015 04:40 purakushi wrote:On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv Yeah, the economic model is now expand or die instead of risk expanding for a benefit  which is really hard to do in alot of the matchups, expanding in pvz is extremely hard due to the cost efficiency of zerg units This issue was written in the stone when the new econ was announced at Blizzcon. I have no idea why Blizzard hasn't properly attempted to fix this issue before beta was launched. What have they been doing over the last 4-5 months anyway? I am curious to see how they will attempt to fix it. My solution has always been to reduce Robo cost, and give the Immortal more of a Dragoon-role with improved responsiveness. This means that a larger percentage of protoss core units comes from a normal production facility, and you should then look at the Robotics Facility as a normal Gateway. I don't believe that you can have very cost efficeint units from the Warpgate and have sound gameplay at the same time (gonna result in all-in or nothing builds), so I prefer the Immortal-focussed solution. But it wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard attempted to make these types of changes, (1) Buff the Adept around being strong and viable vs anti-light (2) Nerf the Stalker slightly vs light units and buff it heavily vs armored units (so it can beat Roaches and Ravagers). Altneratively they might look at giving the Sentry a new ability to counter Ravagers. I am pretty curious to see what they will do and how it will work out. How would you stall(? I hope that's the correct word, if not I meant slow down) the mutalisk play until you have stargates? You cannot go stargate every time just "in case". That's what blink stalkers were for, but if you nerf them against light units Protoss will have only(!!) one unit against mutalisks - phoenix. Glad you asked, as I yesterday spent a couple of hours testing ways to improve the efficiency of Stalkers vs Mutas, and made numerus tweaks as a response. Below are some examples of how you can tweak protoss AA to do better; - Stalker vs light increased to 11-12. Damage vs armored nerfed. - Stalker has upgrade at Twilight council that further increases its damage vs light units (it also boosts movement speed in the map I test, but its also worth pointing out that I am testing changes with 15 second blink cooldown). - I reworked the Archon to make it more "interesting" and in the same process also looked at ways to make them better vs Mutas (but this is probably not something Blizzard is going to do). - The Mutas I am testing are more about move and shoot as in BW, but have less HP/reg. This means that Storm is better vs them. - Mutas start with less damage vs armored than vs light, but armored scales more with weapon upgrades so at +3 they deal the same damage as always. This change takes into account that protoss likely will have a lower warpgate count in the midgame, but with Stalker upgrade and Archons, they can deal well enough with Mutas in the late game.
The thing is this might break or do worse for other match-ups. Just for example, Stalkers having lower damage against armored might make them quite a bit weaker against Vikings(so they won't be as good for protecting Colossi as they are right now), while better against Banshees that are already underused in PvT.
On the other hand, I wouldn't suggest to do all of these changes at once, because Blizzard is known for doing that and fucking that up. If you buff Stalkers and Archons while nerf Mutas at the same time it is quite counterproductive, you are getting really close to deleting them from the ZvP.
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The thing is this might break or do worse for other match-ups. Just for example, Stalkers having lower damage against armored might make them quite a bit weaker against Vikings, while better against Banshees that are already underused in PvT.
On the other hand, I wouldn't suggest to do all of these changes at once, because Blizzard is known for doing that and fucking that up. If you buff Stalkers and Archons while nerf Mutas at the same time it is quite counterproductive, you are getting really close to deleting them from the ZvP.
I lookat it this way: The current balance structure of the game is messed up. which means there is little to any downside (except using lots of time) to overhaul/tweak the majority of the units in the game.
Yes Stalkers/Collosus might become weaker vs Viking then. Is there a way we can change this while making the game more fun as well? Oh let's try solution XXX --> Might result in YYY being OP --> Change ZZZ to balance that out... etc.
The methodlogy above is not an endless proces, but its definitely a proces that is time-consuming as most units must be tweaked.
But remember, that its not as if we are going from a stable structure that we know works to an unstable structure. We are going from something that doesn't work and isn't very fun (Colosus sucks) to something that could work if enough time is spent on it and could be more fun if properly implemented.
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Yes but that doesn't apply for Mutalisks. They are pretty much the most fun units that Zerg has against Protoss, what would you like to see more? Hydralisks and Roaches? Ultralisks? Infestors? Brood Lords? Or god forbid turtle Swarm Hosts?
The real problem here is again that SC2 is very hard-counter oriented game. For example the real problem right now with Mutalisks is that if you are ahead as Zerg(or if your economy isn't damaged) you can get a ton of them in a short time and if opponent doesn't have Phoenixes already he will have a hard time dealing with them. By the time he does make Phoenixes and upgrade them with +2 range, you will have a lot of Corruptors as well and it might not be enough. However, Protoss players that recognize this and get Phoenixes on time, Mutalisks are like dead-tech. The moment you have 15-20 Mutalisks and he has 8-10 Phoenixes you can't do anything with them and you must transition or try to get Infestors and kill Phoenixes(which is quite hard with Phoenix movement speed).
It is really hard to balance things around this, if only Phoenixes weren't hard-counters to Mutas while Mutas were weaker and if you could be able to beat them with Stalkers, Storms and Archons it would be a lot better. But for that to happen we have to redesign a ton of units.
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Yes but that doesn't apply for Mutalisks. They are pretty much the most fun units that Zerg has against Protoss, what would you like to see more?
I wasn't suggesting a nerf to Mutalisks though. I was suggesting that ground protoss units better should deal with them. On the other hand, Phoenix should be less of a hardcounter.
But I think its ok if Stalkers are worse vs Vikings as I don't want Colossus to have an AA-vulnerability, and the game should balanced and designed around this.
Instead I imagine the Viking as a soft Muta counter with high mobility and very fast transformation. The Thor has no bonus damage vs light but larger splash, so the Thor isn't good vs Mutas in smaller numbers but strong vs them in large numbers.
The transformation-aspect is maintained and its AA vs armored is buffed by 100% (yep that much is needed). The Thor is now the core AA vs armored unit similar to the Goliath and it has received a movement speed as well. It can also transform instantly between diferent modes and therefore mech becomes more focussed on transformation micro here.
Worth noting that the combination of the Thor and Viking here roughly accomplishes the same thing as the new terran unit.
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United Kingdom20299 Posts
On the other hand, Phoenix should be less of a hardcounter.
I think phoenix vs muta is pretty fine - muta viper will trade well against them even if you can get a decent phoenix count (if), and phoenix's are DEDICATED anti-light anti-air units while mutalisks hit everything for full damage.
Phoenix are also significantly more expensive and require big investment in the production facilities for any kind of mass-building, while mutas don't - so even if toss goes straight air - and he's somehow on the same gas count as you - and there is no other consideration, then you can outnumber his phoenix using mutas while adding a significant amount of vipers for parasitic swarm.
They're strong with the range upgrade (requiring fleet beacon, additional cost and taking like 3 real minutes to reach) but they need to be. Phoenix are generally underused and even when described as a hard counter here, i think because of the drawbacks they're only a soft counter.
Just buff the adepts DPS and let it shoot up, blizzard plz
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On April 07 2015 21:38 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 04:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 07 2015 04:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers. Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time. On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus). Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it). On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes. - I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go : 1) the attack is indeed not visible enough. 2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator. I'm a middle of the pack gold/plat player in HotS, for what it's worth, and I've played a few folks already that I've absolutely crushed so I think there already are a wide range of skills in. On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv Same =/ Feels like no matter how early I take my third, I always start hearing that my mineral fields are being depleted while the third base is building -_- What race you play? HuK almost lost to gold zerg because ravager is insanely broken
I've been playing Random, but I am mainly a Toss player. I lost once as P to 3 ravagers attacking my natural at 4 minutes, though lol
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I think phoenix vs muta is pretty fine - muta viper will trade well against them even if you can get a decent phoenix count (if), and phoenix's are DEDICATED anti-light anti-air units while mutalisks hit everything for full damage
Oh yeh, I also imagine redesigns of Corrupters and Abduct as I don't like them. My list is pretty large here.  Lots of things to be improved upon.
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On April 07 2015 22:40 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 21:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 07 2015 04:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 07 2015 04:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers. Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time. On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus). Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it). On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes. - I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go : 1) the attack is indeed not visible enough. 2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator. I'm a middle of the pack gold/plat player in HotS, for what it's worth, and I've played a few folks already that I've absolutely crushed so I think there already are a wide range of skills in. On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv Same =/ Feels like no matter how early I take my third, I always start hearing that my mineral fields are being depleted while the third base is building -_- What race you play? HuK almost lost to gold zerg because ravager is insanely broken I've been playing Random, but I am mainly a Toss player. I lost once as P to 3 ravagers attacking my natural at 4 minutes, though lol
ive seen huk do i gate fast nexus into robo at 3 minute mark, rush out a warp prism and immo/disruptor to stay alive during ravager rush
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On April 07 2015 22:48 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:40 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 07 2015 21:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 07 2015 04:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 07 2015 04:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers. Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time. On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus). Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it). On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes. - I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go : 1) the attack is indeed not visible enough. 2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator. I'm a middle of the pack gold/plat player in HotS, for what it's worth, and I've played a few folks already that I've absolutely crushed so I think there already are a wide range of skills in. On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv Same =/ Feels like no matter how early I take my third, I always start hearing that my mineral fields are being depleted while the third base is building -_- What race you play? HuK almost lost to gold zerg because ravager is insanely broken I've been playing Random, but I am mainly a Toss player. I lost once as P to 3 ravagers attacking my natural at 4 minutes, though lol ive seen huk do i gate fast nexus into robo at 3 minute mark, rush out a warp prism and immo/disruptor to stay alive during ravager rush
That's what I tried to do that game, I guess I just didn't do it fast enough. I'm not stressing *too* much about dying to things like early Ravager rushes or Cyclones as I know they'll be changed. Still, I'll keep working on it!
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Hmm...how is ZvT cyclone v ravager? ^^
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On April 07 2015 22:48 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:40 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 07 2015 21:38 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 07 2015 04:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 07 2015 04:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 06 2015 23:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On April 06 2015 20:12 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Hmmm I was hoping for more regular waves of invites.
I hope I'm in though ^^ To be honest, I expect more frequent invites after the next wave. This first build of LotV has quite a few bugs and issues that I think they want to sort out before adding a lot more testers. Hopefully. Even if I don't get to play it before the open beta, I wish a large number of players of all levels can offer feedback. They better involve as many persons of the community as possible, this is of huge importance for the SC2 scene that that last iteration is solid and can stand the test of time. On April 07 2015 00:39 DinoMight wrote:On April 07 2015 00:21 royalroadweed wrote:On April 06 2015 10:11 royalroadweed wrote:Seed is doing a surprisingly good job at shutting down cyclone play vs gumiho. It doesn't seem nearly as strong as I thought. http://www.hitbox.tv/teamgravity I've changed my mind. MMA is disgusting with these things. Oh, yeah. They are totally broken. But I'd rather have a broken unit everyone tests than a terrible unit nobody wants to play with (Adept, new Colossus). Yeah I think the adept will receive substantial buffs or will be changed massively (I'd prefer this option) because there is simply not enough incentive to build them and you very rarely see them on streams past the very early game (what is even the use of shockwave ? Cost for cost, even light units such as hydras and lings, when upgraded, seem to slaughter adepts). The new colossus seems retardedly weak (less range, less damage ? Please. Just scrap the unit if you don't like it). On April 07 2015 03:03 opisska wrote:
Now is the first time I have actually seem some LoTV gameplay. All the things seem quite fun and I don't think that form watching alone you can tell how they feel, but some visual issues are obvious:
- the minimap color change is plain stupid
- the cyclone lock-ons and its attack in general are not very visible. An un-informed HoTS player will not even realize that they are doing something in battles (tested).
- I think the minimap color change is universally despised and will go at the first batch of changes. - I have two problems with the cyclones as far as graphics go : 1) the attack is indeed not visible enough. 2) the range indicators on the other hand when lock-on is activated are visible for everyone and make the screen so messy it's unreadable. Units normally don't show their range when you don't control them (tanks, tempests...), why should the cyclone be different ? Just reduce the range so that experienced players can get a grasp of it (it is too large anyway) and remove the range indicator. I'm a middle of the pack gold/plat player in HotS, for what it's worth, and I've played a few folks already that I've absolutely crushed so I think there already are a wide range of skills in. On April 07 2015 04:32 TT1 wrote:
yea i dunno.. i always feel broke in lotv Same =/ Feels like no matter how early I take my third, I always start hearing that my mineral fields are being depleted while the third base is building -_- What race you play? HuK almost lost to gold zerg because ravager is insanely broken I've been playing Random, but I am mainly a Toss player. I lost once as P to 3 ravagers attacking my natural at 4 minutes, though lol ive seen huk do i gate fast nexus into robo at 3 minute mark, rush out a warp prism and immo/disruptor to stay alive during ravager rush
I've been going for a quick stargate off of a nexus-gate opener, never lost to a single ravager rush. Oracles/void rays crush that pretty easily.
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On April 07 2015 21:34 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 19:43 KeksX wrote:
Here's to hoping for new beta invites today! Why today? Did I miss something?
Oh damn, I assumed it would be the same time it always is(tuesdays/maintenance days).
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United Kingdom20299 Posts
On April 07 2015 15:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I don't get why this push for using every unit all the time. I'd rather have them diversify some of the units for specific situations. BW had tons of units that nobody really used outside certain conditions, and most games would go on without them.
Now in the beta, obviously the push should be for everyone to use each unit to the max to see how everything stacks up. But I don't see why we can't leave adepts as analogues to reapers or lurkers in their current form in the finished game. They're there if you need them, otherwise you've always got the core units.
Protoss just needs more core units, rather than building nothing but stalkers and throwing in a few sentries or disruptors. It's not as fun as it could be.
The reliance on deep robo tech or storm is too much because zealot/stalker can't fight battles vs too many compositions especially into the mid and late game without heavily leaning on them and it's just not fun. They have the right idea nerfing colossus and warpgate but protoss as a race needs actual reliable and strong core units capable of fighting marine/marauder/medivac or roach/ravager COST EFFICIENTLY in the midgame - or if they're expected to have lower economy, more than cost efficiently.
Stalkers are a nice, fun unit; they do alright vs armored but need immortal/sentry support to take roaches well, that's fine enough. They don't cut it vs too many units though, and particularly they don't scale well in huge numbers partially due to size and lack of DPS
But I don't see why we can't leave adepts as analogues to reapers or lurkers in their current form in the finished game
Because it could be so much more, and that would be awesome. Also, lurkers? Reapers are used in the first 3 minutes of the game and then everybody forgets that they exist - the only reason Lurkers are not in way more games is because other units outshine them. Lurker is still an awesome unit for trading against many unit compositions, people just don't bother to transition because ravagers or bouncing between a t1 unit and omgwtfmutas is straight out overpowered right now
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On April 08 2015 02:57 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 15:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I don't get why this push for using every unit all the time. I'd rather have them diversify some of the units for specific situations. BW had tons of units that nobody really used outside certain conditions, and most games would go on without them.
Now in the beta, obviously the push should be for everyone to use each unit to the max to see how everything stacks up. But I don't see why we can't leave adepts as analogues to reapers or lurkers in their current form in the finished game. They're there if you need them, otherwise you've always got the core units. Protoss just needs more core units, rather than building nothing but stalkers and throwing in a few sentries or disruptors. It's not as fun as it could be. The reliance on deep robo tech or storm is too much because zealot/stalker can't fight battles vs too many compositions especially into the mid and late game without heavily leaning on them and it's just not fun. They have the right idea nerfing colossus and warpgate but protoss as a race needs actual reliable and strong core units capable of fighting marine/marauder/medivac or roach/ravager COST EFFICIENTLY in the midgame - or if they're expected to have lower economy, more than cost efficiently. Stalkers are a nice, fun unit; they do alright vs armored but need immortal/sentry support to take roaches well, that's fine enough. They don't cut it vs too many units though, and particularly they don't scale well in huge numbers partially due to size and lack of DPS Show nested quote +But I don't see why we can't leave adepts as analogues to reapers or lurkers in their current form in the finished game Because it could be so much more, and that would be awesome. Also, lurkers? Reapers are used in the first 3 minutes of the game and then everybody forgets that they exist - the only reason Lurkers are not in way more games is because other units outshine them. Lurker is still an awesome unit for trading against many unit compositions, people just don't bother to transition because ravagers or bouncing between a t1 unit and omgwtfmutas is straight out overpowered right now
Maybe we could nerf blink and buff the stalker to resemble a dragoon more, and instead focus the blinking role onto the adept? Maybe even give the Zealot its 10 shields back. It seems to me that the 200% damage bonus for warping in units and more exposed warp-in due to the time extension (so if you're against a proxy pylon you still have good defenders' advantage by taking out the incoming units with lings or something) means that gateway units are ready to get buffed again. Not sure how it would affect sentries, but there should definitely be a push for more possible use of Stalkers other than anti-air and Zealots more than harassment/mineral sink.
Comma should be after reapers. I'm agreeing with you - I like lurkers just the way they are. I'd even say the change should be to ravagers, having them come out later (e.g. upgrade that becomes available at lair tech) so the tech choice becomes roach -> ravager or roach/hydra -> lurker or ravager dependent on situation.
I'm iffy on this second part atm since I haven't actually played around with the Zerg units much, only the new Swarm Host and Lurker. How does the current upgrade work (I can't find anywhere that specifies it) and how much does it cost to morph a roach?
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United Kingdom20299 Posts
I didn't pay particular attention there but i think roaches can just morph right away for 75 gas, a small mineral sink and 15 seconds or so of time
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Maybe we could nerf blink and buff the stalker to resemble a dragoon more, and instead focus the blinking role onto the adept?
And then the Stalker starts overlappping with the Immortal....
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On April 07 2015 22:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Yes but that doesn't apply for Mutalisks. They are pretty much the most fun units that Zerg has against Protoss, what would you like to see more? Hydralisks and Roaches? Ultralisks? Infestors? Brood Lords? Or god forbid turtle Swarm Hosts?
The real problem here is again that SC2 is very hard-counter oriented game. For example the real problem right now with Mutalisks is that if you are ahead as Zerg(or if your economy isn't damaged) you can get a ton of them in a short time and if opponent doesn't have Phoenixes already he will have a hard time dealing with them. By the time he does make Phoenixes and upgrade them with +2 range, you will have a lot of Corruptors as well and it might not be enough. However, Protoss players that recognize this and get Phoenixes on time, Mutalisks are like dead-tech. The moment you have 15-20 Mutalisks and he has 8-10 Phoenixes you can't do anything with them and you must transition or try to get Infestors and kill Phoenixes(which is quite hard with Phoenix movement speed).
It is really hard to balance things around this, if only Phoenixes weren't hard-counters to Mutas while Mutas were weaker and if you could be able to beat them with Stalkers, Storms and Archons it would be a lot better. But for that to happen we have to redesign a ton of units.
Mutalisks are air units, so it's better than the alternative. It's okay for pure air to fade out of power because otherwise you wouldn't even need maps - people play with units who ignore terrain anyway. Imo StarCraft is all it's iterations does a reasonably fine job of making terrain important, so air units should have harassing/supporting roles for that to stay. The way zerg can tech switch so massively to a unit that requires hard countering (which the mutalisk arguably is, most of protoss stuff cant even attack them and that regeneration ability from HotS made storm useless vs them as well) is quite disgusting too.
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On April 08 2015 04:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Maybe we could nerf blink and buff the stalker to resemble a dragoon more, and instead focus the blinking role onto the adept? And then the Stalker starts overlappping with the Immortal....
Not necessarily. You don't really see immortals massed in the way stalkers are. Stalkers could still retain some of their maneuverability to contend with muta/viking/skytoss but be a general-purpose ranged unit like a not-retarded dragoon, while immortals retain their anti-armor purpose. In any case you'd see a adept-stalker-immortal gradient and all you'd need to do is have the adept and immortal far enough away from the stalker to have making each unit feasible under a given set of circumstances.
On April 08 2015 03:44 Cyro wrote:
I didn't pay particular attention there but i think roaches can just morph right away for 75 gas, a small mineral sink and 15 seconds or so of time
Oh... well in that case we can start with the upgrade just requiring a lair, and go from there.
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On April 08 2015 04:23 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Yes but that doesn't apply for Mutalisks. They are pretty much the most fun units that Zerg has against Protoss, what would you like to see more? Hydralisks and Roaches? Ultralisks? Infestors? Brood Lords? Or god forbid turtle Swarm Hosts?
The real problem here is again that SC2 is very hard-counter oriented game. For example the real problem right now with Mutalisks is that if you are ahead as Zerg(or if your economy isn't damaged) you can get a ton of them in a short time and if opponent doesn't have Phoenixes already he will have a hard time dealing with them. By the time he does make Phoenixes and upgrade them with +2 range, you will have a lot of Corruptors as well and it might not be enough. However, Protoss players that recognize this and get Phoenixes on time, Mutalisks are like dead-tech. The moment you have 15-20 Mutalisks and he has 8-10 Phoenixes you can't do anything with them and you must transition or try to get Infestors and kill Phoenixes(which is quite hard with Phoenix movement speed).
It is really hard to balance things around this, if only Phoenixes weren't hard-counters to Mutas while Mutas were weaker and if you could be able to beat them with Stalkers, Storms and Archons it would be a lot better. But for that to happen we have to redesign a ton of units. Mutalisks are air units, so it's better than the alternative. It's okay for pure air to fade out of power because otherwise you wouldn't even need maps - people play with units who ignore terrain anyway. Imo StarCraft is all it's iterations does a reasonably fine job of making terrain important, so air units should have harassing/supporting roles for that to stay. The way zerg can tech switch so massively to a unit that requires hard countering (which the mutalisk arguably is, most of protoss stuff cant even attack them and that regeneration ability from HotS made storm useless vs them as well) is quite disgusting too.
What if it was like in the campaign where Vipers were made from Mutalisks? Could have a greater spire requirement or something. You either keep up the flock or have a small number from which you can tech into vipers.
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EPT
