Ravagers are actually totally broken, there isn't any motivation for a zerg to not just build mass ravagers in any game and destroy any composition he is facing. I understand the design of the unit and why that unit could be a great addition on the game, so I'm not worried about the current numbers, Blizzard has just to make ravagers weak in some situations.
Problems with the Ravagers
- They can be massed too easily, I'm terrified that you can pretty much do a "Stephano maxout build" with ravagers - There are no drawbacks on morphing every roach into a ravager, they're just better than roaches in every aspect (slightly slower and no burrow movement but come on..) - Their ability is too spammable, with no drawbacks (except amoving your entire army under your own fire)
Blizzard has to address those 3 focal points, and then Ravagers will be fine maintaining their initial design purpose (Break forcefields into early-mid game and having an early game AA)
On December 09 2014 18:43 KeksX wrote: Ravagers are first and foremost a solution to the forcefield issue for Zerg, so moving them to lair tech would basically get rid of most of their usefulness since on lair forcefields aren't that much of an issue anymore.
Please do not start spreading your opinions on design as facts just because someone made a pretty video. Blizzard also showcased Ravagers in a bunch of non-forcefield scenarios. Please don't start creating these myths already, else:
In 2015 some crybaby will write: Ravagers were never supposed to actually counter real units. It was a bandaid solution against forcefields, them being useful against other stuff just shows how broken the unit is.
First it should have higher cooldown, like 15 or 20 seconds, and second it needs to deal less damage, something like 20(+20 vs. armored). The reason behind this is that Ravagers should be units that are mostly used for breaking Force Fields, Static Defense and make the engagements for opponent difficult, they shouldn't be units that just destroy everything.
Not that I disagree on the sentiment, but the original blizzard corrosive bile ability showcased at blizzard looked extremely dodgeable if you remember the games. The one implemented in this Mod was terribly overpowered in comparison, both in terms of damage value and splash range. The ability might already be much closer to what you want it to be anyways. Personally I'd rather have a strong corrosive bile or even better have a corrosive bile like attack as the ravagers standard attack with an additional "attack ground" command on the unit, than having the ravager being a stronger roach with the corrosive bile on top.
On December 09 2014 19:59 FrozenProbe wrote: Ravagers are actually totally broken, there isn't any motivation for a zerg to not just build mass ravagers in any game and destroy any composition he is facing. I understand the design of the unit and why that unit could be a great addition on the game, so I'm not worried about the current numbers, Blizzard has just to make ravagers weak in some situations.
Problems with the Ravagers
- They can be massed too easily, I'm terrified that you can pretty much do a "Stephano maxout build" with ravagers - There are no drawbacks on morphing every roach into a ravager, they're just better than roaches in every aspect (slightly slower and no burrow movement but come on..) - Their ability is too spammable, with no drawbacks (except amoving your entire army under your own fire)
Blizzard has to address those 3 focal points, and then Ravagers will be fine maintaining their initial design purpose (Break forcefields into early-mid game and having an early game AA)
Ravagers cost the same as mutas, I highly doubt you can max on them by anywhere near 12 minutes.
I don't understand why a fullproof counter to forcefield should be available at hatchery tech anyway. Is that a practical decision to effectively remove forcefield from the game without formally taking the sentry out? You might as well make queens massive so that forcefields on ramps will never be a problem anymore.
Ravagers make conceptual sense as a lair unit. They have siege capability. They have overlap with roaches and should at the very least not be the same tech level.
First it should have higher cooldown, like 15 or 20 seconds, and second it needs to deal less damage, something like 20(+20 vs. armored). The reason behind this is that Ravagers should be units that are mostly used for breaking Force Fields, Static Defense and make the engagements for opponent difficult, they shouldn't be units that just destroy everything.
I want to remember you, that their aoe was seriously and drastically decreased from 1.5 to 0.5, meaning that they can kill almost 4 marines, if hit them. It's a lot harder to hit small units, especially fast ones, that are under stimpack or just moving/blinking.
Also keep in mind that Ravagers can kill themselfs, if they hit melee units with corrosive biles. So we already have some unit counters:
- zerglings - can dodge Corrosive Bile pretty easily - speed-roaches - dodge and regenerate if damaged - zealots - charge at ravagers, regenerate shields, pretty tanky already - marauders - enoughly tanky, can be healed, can dodge with stimpack - hercs - can grapple onto hercs. Almost like charge-zealots
And Ravagers aren't that cheap. 3 supply and 100 gas early game is not so "spammable"
On December 09 2014 18:43 KeksX wrote: Ravagers are first and foremost a solution to the forcefield issue for Zerg, so moving them to lair tech would basically get rid of most of their usefulness since on lair forcefields aren't that much of an issue anymore.
Please do not start spreading your opinions on design as facts just because someone made a pretty video. Blizzard also showcased Ravagers in a bunch of non-forcefield scenarios. Please don't start creating these myths already, else:
In 2015 some crybaby will write: Ravagers were never supposed to actually counter real units. It was a bandaid solution against forcefields, them being useful against other stuff just shows how broken the unit is.
First it should have higher cooldown, like 15 or 20 seconds, and second it needs to deal less damage, something like 20(+20 vs. armored). The reason behind this is that Ravagers should be units that are mostly used for breaking Force Fields, Static Defense and make the engagements for opponent difficult, they shouldn't be units that just destroy everything.
Not that I disagree on the sentiment, but the original blizzard corrosive bile ability showcased at blizzard looked extremely dodgeable if you remember the games. The one implemented in this Mod was terribly overpowered in comparison, both in terms of damage value and splash range. The ability might already be much closer to what you want it to be anyways. Personally I'd rather have a strong corrosive bile or even better have a corrosive bile like attack as the ravagers standard attack with an additional "attack ground" command on the unit, than having the ravager being a stronger roach with the corrosive bile on top.
Blizzard showcases a lot of stuff, mostly to show that they don't create a unit that just serves one purpose and can do nothing else because they have been critiziced for that. I also think it's an inherent fact that this only represents my views and opinions and not Blizzard's actual thoughts, however I am convinced that the Ravager's implementation is at the very least HEAVILY influenced by the decision to give Zerg an earlier ability to break forcefields. Looking back at my post, I should have worded that better though.
As for the rest, I am personally not a fan of the Ravager being so strong and versatile and I'd much rather see it to just be a stronger roach.
On December 09 2014 21:17 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand why a fullproof counter to forcefield should be available at hatchery tech anyway. Is that a practical decision to effectively remove forcefield from the game without formally taking the sentry out? You might as well make queens massive so that forcefields on ramps will never be a problem anymore.
Ravagers make conceptual sense as a lair unit. They have siege capability. They have overlap with roaches and should at the very least not be the same tech level.
No they don't overlap with the roach that much which is the funny thing, in fact Roach + Ravager is a viable unit composition on its own at an earlier stage. Not for endgame of course but it nets you a safe midgame to tech into T2+ depending on the situation. They overlap much more with banelings and lurkers imho. Why chase marines with banelings when I can just bile them everytime they run towards me? Why place lurkers in font of a base risking their death upon scan when I can just spam bile on the ramp?
The fact that they are foolproof is also not true I think, every shot you have in fight that goes on a forcefield does not go on a unit ball giving Protoos room for engagement. With forcefields being such a bad, broken design it is really hard to think of a better solution. It's either forcefield off or forcefield on, not much room to play with. So giving the Zerg an opportunity to break forcefields for money essentially is a great thing. I just think the fact that they can also do massive damage if used right is too much.
First it should have higher cooldown, like 15 or 20 seconds, and second it needs to deal less damage, something like 20(+20 vs. armored). The reason behind this is that Ravagers should be units that are mostly used for breaking Force Fields, Static Defense and make the engagements for opponent difficult, they shouldn't be units that just destroy everything.
I want to remember you, that their aoe was seriously and drastically decreased from 1.5 to 0.5, meaning that they can kill almost 4 marines, if hit them. It's a lot harder to hit small units, especially fast ones, that are under stimpack or just moving/blinking.
Also keep in mind that Ravagers can kill themselfs, if they hit melee units with corrosive biles. So we already have some unit counters:
- zerglings - can dodge Corrosive Bile pretty easily - speed-roaches - dodge and regenerate if damaged - zealots - charge at ravagers, regenerate shields, pretty tanky already - marauders - enoughly tanky, can be healed, can dodge with stimpack - hercs - can grapple onto hercs. Almost like charge-zealots
And Ravagers aren't that cheap. 3 supply and 100 gas early game is not so "spammable"
Most of these, with the exception of Herc/marauders, can be "countered" by just not morphing all of your roaches into Ravagers, no? Just let Ravagers, like spellcasters should be, stay in back and spam bile in front of your roach flock. You can either a) prevent an engagement you don't want to take or b) make significant damage to an opponent not paying enough attention
And since they don't have energy, you can do that for a pretty long time. The 0.5 AoE is nice, but I think the same things can still happen, although they shouldn't be as drastic.
Most of these, with the exception of Herc/marauders, can be "countered" by just not morphing all of your roaches into Ravagers, no?
Probably. But lets take a look onto air units. Void rays, banshees, mutalisks - all can counter ravagers.
But I do agree about making them "Zerg Sentries" with one ability, weaken their attack and make them just mortar guys. So there will be drawback - defenceless ravagers. So you will need an army to make them viable.
The fact that they are foolproof is also not true I think, every shot you have in fight that goes on a forcefield does not go on a unit ball giving Protoos room for engagement. With forcefields being such a bad, broken design it is really hard to think of a better solution. It's either forcefield off or forcefield on, not much room to play with. So giving the Zerg an opportunity to break forcefields for money essentially is a great thing. I just think the fact that they can also do massive damage if used right is too much.
I love that they can counter CLUMPED air units. Before ravagers against such problem zergs had only fungal and mutalisks (sort of).
Yeah, as I said before I think the fact that Ravager is so strong comes from the fact that it is used as an additional AA unit. I do like zerg AA being buffed I just don't think it should be the Ravager.
On December 09 2014 21:17 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand why a fullproof counter to forcefield should be available at hatchery tech anyway. Is that a practical decision to effectively remove forcefield from the game without formally taking the sentry out? You might as well make queens massive so that forcefields on ramps will never be a problem anymore.
Ravagers make conceptual sense as a lair unit. They have siege capability. They have overlap with roaches and should at the very least not be the same tech level.
It would be very mean to call a woman "massive" though.
On a more serious note... Is anyone of those defending the ravagers playing the game? I seriously doubt that. It's a mix of very good stats + bile that forces opponents to A)engage in open areas so they can move B)make the opponent's army move so you land free shots. Take also into account the mad synergy between them and infestors. Oh, you have a big air army? I don't give a duck.
On December 09 2014 21:17 Grumbels wrote: I don't understand why a fullproof counter to forcefield should be available at hatchery tech anyway. Is that a practical decision to effectively remove forcefield from the game without formally taking the sentry out? You might as well make queens massive so that forcefields on ramps will never be a problem anymore.
Ravagers make conceptual sense as a lair unit. They have siege capability. They have overlap with roaches and should at the very least not be the same tech level.
It would be very mean to call a woman "massive" though.
On a more serious note... Is anyone of those defending the ravagers playing the game? I seriously doubt that. It's a mix of very good stats + bile that forces opponents to A)engage in open areas so they can move B)make the opponent's army move so you land free shots. Take also into account the mad synergy between them and infestors. Oh, you have a big air army? I don't give a duck.
Yup, I'm playing it. It's far from perfect, but if you are also playing it you might have noticed that the ravager got his splash changed quite heavily already compared to the former overpowered versions.
The thing is not about defending it, but which direction it should head. If they follow the "nerf corrosive, make it a better roach" direction we get just that... another roach or hydralisk type of unit with no purpose besides breaking forcefields and doing what roach and hydralisk already do... And 1year into LotV they shall all whine how bad the design of it is
seriously, who shit in David Kims head to add another roach-type of unit to zerg after everyone has been telling him how boring original roaches were to begin with
And the answer would be: the community who rather had a fucking awesome skillshot ability nerfed so that 90% of the units could just tank it or avoid it once and then not worry about it for another 20seconds, rather than having the unit designed around that micro interaction.
I'm 100% with Existor's idea here, just make it a Mortar type of unit instead of a Roach with a sidekick Mortarability.
I'm 100% with Existor's idea here, just make it a Mortar type of unit instead of a Roach with a sidekick Mortarability.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about. The current state is not a "sidekick Mortarability" though, it's the Ravager being almost the main source of DPS or at least the main actor in an army, basically a spellcaster you build a composition around and not what you get to add into an existing composition.
@Existor: I'd argue that those combos hurt the game no matter what race has them. Units should be viable in groups large and small, and in different compositions. If there's this one army composition thats beating everything else, you'll get exclusively that.
Take also into account the mad synergy between them and infestors. Oh, you have a big air army? I don't give a duck.
There is another strong synergy: time warp with force fields with storms with colossies with disruptors. So why zergs can't have some strong combos?
I really love corrosive bile ability. Maybe need different visuals, since fire-theme doesn't fits much with zergs.
Would be awesome, if ravagers used banelings in same way - drop up and they landing from top to break forcefields.
I haven't expressed any qualitative judgements on that. It's a very cool ability and it's nice that it has such syngergy but the unit as a whole needs obviously big fixing (we are not even in alpha so they probably did something!).
Corrosive Bile is a lot less effective than it used to be. The splash radius made a huge difference. Even if you lock down a big skytoss army you'll need a considerable amount of ravagers to kill stuff. Its great for catching phoenix and maaaybe voids, but the capital ships give about 0 fucks.
I'm 100% with Existor's idea here, just make it a Mortar type of unit instead of a Roach with a sidekick Mortarability.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about. The current state is not a "sidekick Mortarability" though, it's the Ravager being almost the main source of DPS or at least the main actor in an army, basically a spellcaster you build a composition around and not what you get to add into an existing composition.
@Existor: I'd argue that those combos hurt the game no matter what race has them. Units should be viable in groups large and small, and in different compositions. If there's this one army composition thats beating everything else, you'll get exclusively that.
Have you played since they corrected the damage? The way it was in the original mod you are right it was broken as fuck, corrected though it doesn't seem to be anywhere as broken.
Also for a 100/100 unit and 3 supply not very massable, 100 gas is a lot and adds up quickly. Does it need to be changed? Maybe, is it overpowered? Probably but I imagine the games already changed a shit ton since the blizzcon build so I wouldn't really worry about crying about the unit until Beta is closer anyway, even then you should wait until actual beta and playing the game a lot and seeing high level play before crying.
The disruptor reminds me a lot of the shredder, I don't know if they will make it through testing in this state.
I think it's pretty balanced with the 30 second cool down honestly. If you miss at all they become completely useless for another 30 seconds in which if someone comes and fights you... 30 seconds is a huge timing...
They might need some small tweaking, but overall I think it's actually a good step forward. I like how it forces the protoss to micro specifically them in battles and that means terran will specifically be microing their bio -> visible micro battles -> more hype. While the disruptor is charging forward it also adds an huge amount of suspense to the battle, just like a reaver shooting a scarab.
My small contribution to the Ravage discussion is that Corrosive Bile could have a life cost much like Stimpacks, this way spamming the ability would be a strategic decision. Blizzard added a lot of cooldown based abilities, but I think life based abilities could be fun and interesting.
EPT
