On December 10 2014 02:18 SoulFilcher wrote: My small contribution to the Ravage discussion is that Corrosive Bile could have a life cost much like Stimpacks, this way spamming the ability would be a strategic decision. Blizzard added a lot of cooldown based abilities, but I think life based abilities could be fun and interesting.
Then make it cost tons of life, but give ravagers burrow regeneration. Hm, that could work. Ravagers become less strong early game (since they require burrow to regenerate for more shots), but in mid and late game they can throw more corrosive biles with burrow tech.
I'm 100% with Existor's idea here, just make it a Mortar type of unit instead of a Roach with a sidekick Mortarability.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about. The current state is not a "sidekick Mortarability" though, it's the Ravager being almost the main source of DPS or at least the main actor in an army, basically a spellcaster you build a composition around and not what you get to add into an existing composition.
@Existor: I'd argue that those combos hurt the game no matter what race has them. Units should be viable in groups large and small, and in different compositions. If there's this one army composition thats beating everything else, you'll get exclusively that.
Have you played since they corrected the damage? The way it was in the original mod you are right it was broken as fuck, corrected though it doesn't seem to be anywhere as broken.
Also for a 100/100 unit and 3 supply not very massable, 100 gas is a lot and adds up quickly. Does it need to be changed? Maybe, is it overpowered? Probably but I imagine the games already changed a shit ton since the blizzcon build so I wouldn't really worry about crying about the unit until Beta is closer anyway, even then you should wait until actual beta and playing the game a lot and seeing high level play before crying.
Gotta admit that I haven't played the new version, but I'll be sure to correct that tonight.
I'm also not saying at all that the Ravager is inherently bad, I just think that the role it represented in the current games is not what I want to see for it at all! Gonna see if it might be the change that was needed for me though.
The disruptor reminds me a lot of the shredder, I don't know if they will make it through testing in this state.
I think it's pretty balanced with the 30 second cool down honestly. If you miss at all they become completely useless for another 30 seconds in which if someone comes and fights you... 30 seconds is a huge timing...
They might need some small tweaking, but overall I think it's actually a good step forward. I like how it forces the protoss to micro specifically them in battles and that means terran will specifically be microing their bio -> visible micro battles -> more hype. While the disruptor is charging forward it also adds an huge amount of suspense to the battle, just like a reaver shooting a scarab.
I like it very much.
ya its hard to tell....then might need like a 5 second speed slowed to 2.2 or something after detonation or maybe not being invulnerable....maybe like +600 shield hp....something really high but still not invincible. It can be tweaked....The thing I like is its moving away from colossus which is boring
The disruptor reminds me a lot of the shredder, I don't know if they will make it through testing in this state.
I think it's pretty balanced with the 30 second cool down honestly. If you miss at all they become completely useless for another 30 seconds in which if someone comes and fights you... 30 seconds is a huge timing...
They might need some small tweaking, but overall I think it's actually a good step forward. I like how it forces the protoss to micro specifically them in battles and that means terran will specifically be microing their bio -> visible micro battles -> more hype. While the disruptor is charging forward it also adds an huge amount of suspense to the battle, just like a reaver shooting a scarab.
I like it very much.
ya its hard to tell....then might need like a 5 second speed slowed to 2.2 or something after detonation or maybe not being invulnerable....maybe like +600 shield hp....something really high but still not invincible. It can be tweaked....The thing I like is its moving away from colossus which is boring
As nicely as I can ask... I am not sure if you play protoss at a like.. semi high level or not.. but I'll just go ahead and state that almost every protoss player I know absolutely hates colossus builds because THEY are boring and incredibly limiting. Not microing your colossus is boring.. sitting and building a ball for a 2 or 3 base push is boring... micro battles between players are much more entertaining both as a viewer and player as I said above. Unless for some reason you think controlling units during engagements is boring? xD haha
ya its hard to tell....then might need like a 5 second speed slowed to 2.2 or something after detonation or maybe not being invulnerable....maybe like +600 shield hp....something really high but still not invincible. It can be tweaked....The thing I like is its moving away from colossus which is boring
I think it is okay as it is now. Disruptor can be outranged and kited by other units. Also high-armored units can survive disruptor explosions. There are plenty of ways to counter:
- roaches can outrange on creep and/or if recieved some damage - regenerate
- zerglings can just run away
- hydralisks can be splitted, but they are supposed to be countered by disruptors, especially when colossies are nerfed (more counters to them, lower max range)
- marauders & marines can go into medivac to avoid explosions
- all protoss units can survive one disruptor explosion. Also force fields can still block movement of disruptors in their invincible form (at least, for now)
- Prizms can evacuate units at small range
- terran mech (even hellbats) can survive disruptor explosions. Also sploit more, so less units will take damage
I'm a zerg player and the units I actually like in the current state are the disruptor and the lurker (ofcourse). I'm not really sure about the terran units but they seem pretty boring. I would like defense matrix to make a comeback with shorter duration but better protection so it could be used to save abducted units for example. It would also be a nice combo with boosted seeker medivac missile
Carrier interceptors lunch seem to follow enemy units. This seems problematic (for zerg with lost of corruption) if the carrier death ball lunches all its carriers and retreats while the enemy loses its deathball to interceptors. not a problem for stim marines, but anything else is a big lost, now that there is less mineral and gas to go around.
The disruptor reminds me a lot of the shredder, I don't know if they will make it through testing in this state.
I think it's pretty balanced with the 30 second cool down honestly. If you miss at all they become completely useless for another 30 seconds in which if someone comes and fights you... 30 seconds is a huge timing...
They might need some small tweaking, but overall I think it's actually a good step forward. I like how it forces the protoss to micro specifically them in battles and that means terran will specifically be microing their bio -> visible micro battles -> more hype. While the disruptor is charging forward it also adds an huge amount of suspense to the battle, just like a reaver shooting a scarab.
I like it very much.
ya its hard to tell....then might need like a 5 second speed slowed to 2.2 or something after detonation or maybe not being invulnerable....maybe like +600 shield hp....something really high but still not invincible. It can be tweaked....The thing I like is its moving away from colossus which is boring
As nicely as I can ask... I am not sure if you play protoss at a like.. semi high level or not.. but I'll just go ahead and state that almost every protoss player I know absolutely hates colossus builds because THEY are boring and incredibly limiting. Not microing your colossus is boring.. sitting and building a ball for a 2 or 3 base push is boring... micro battles between players are much more entertaining both as a viewer and player as I said above. Unless for some reason you think controlling units during engagements is boring? xD haha
Yes, colossus is boring...I think you maybe read my post wrong because we are saying the same thing. colossus sucks
On December 09 2014 18:43 KeksX wrote: Ravagers are first and foremost a solution to the forcefield issue for Zerg, so moving them to lair tech would basically get rid of most of their usefulness since on lair forcefields aren't that much of an issue anymore.
I think the Ravager being so strong in the inital design is because of usual zerg AA being so goddamn weak. Hydras and Corruptors just don't cut it against P and T airballs. You need fungals and perfect engagements or else you'll eat shit, so Blizzard went on and made the ravagar a decent tanky AA unit to support the weak zerg AA.
I'd prefer seeing the Hydra and Corruptor buffed and the Ravager being more of a "better Roach" that breaks forcefields instead of an almost completely new unit. Even though Ravagers are tanky, in most engagements against ground armies I've seen they are treated like another spellcaster due to their cost and ability, which is not what the Roach was at all.
Actually no, protoss using FF that earlier and ravager being able to negate all that mana for free is basically counterfeiting the ability and unit all together. Especially since protoss has to invest all that gas into a shitty unit body that doesn't even compare to the ravagers body.
And FF is definitely useful throughout the game, especially mid game where protoss can cut an army in half, then win the game. Or cut your defense off while they destroy your hatch and TP out.
Ravager as AA is silly. First of all it's really hard to land that shit on anything, let alone air units (even with the pee line down fro the air). The only exception to this is late game with massed stacked air units coupled with fungal and tons of bile shots. As it is now, zerg has to like mass queens to deal with mass voids, which is pretty bad. So definitely a great improvement imho.
On December 10 2014 00:21 ejozl wrote: The combo and micro part is what's cool about the Ravager, it is a little too jack of all trades though.
Right, I think Excistor missed that point when he's defending them.
They are a cool unit, I like the design goals, I like the gaps they fill in Zerg's weaknesses, I like the synergy they have with other units (including in team games), I like that they can raid worker lines, I like that they require a skill shot/timing/etc stuff.
The problem is just they are just too good versus everything, any composition or unit 1v1 could have a tough time fighting a ravager, even a capital ship will take a good chunk of damage or possibly even lose to a ravager.
And yes, I am still referring to the smaller radius bombs they hurl. It doesn't really matter when you have 10 ravager bombs every 3 seconds.
On December 10 2014 11:06 FreezingAcidRain wrote: Carrier interceptors lunch seem to follow enemy units. This seems problematic (for zerg with lost of corruption) if the carrier death ball lunches all its carriers and retreats while the enemy loses its deathball to interceptors. not a problem for stim marines, but anything else is a big lost, now that there is less mineral and gas to go around.
Yea, I mentioned this the other day. They definitely follow and from what people said, they are not supposed to. I hope they are working on a fix for this.
As far as unit design types, perhaps blizzard should think more outside the box for their units and abilities. Maybe into other games. Like someone else suggested, it's ok to have abilities cost life as well. Or perhaps cost minerals. Or maybe have to consume zerglings like a defiler did. Or maybe something completely new like some terrain requirement or has to attach to an overlord. etc. etc. Theirs literally endless possiblities to how to design a unit, and each little aspect could be a slight nerf/buff in one direction.
Remember when roaches regenerated ridiculously with the T3 upgrade?
What if they made a unit that had like 20hp with super sick regen and armor so that it can't die from anything that does under 20 damage at once?
PS- Idgaf about archonmode, seriously what is the appeal of that? we already have macro/micro maps and play obs maps etc. It's not a big deal nor is it that fun anyway.
I would like to talk about other units besides the ravager though, as almost everything is pretty broken, just that the ravager is the easiest unit to get to, people notice it the most.
===== Corruptors.
Basically like the old void rays, only they move faster, cost way less, less supply, regenerate, can be transfused, can morph into broods, etc. Rushing muta is basically counterfeited by rushing them now. You can go a standard 2 hatch spire > corruptors instead of muta and its way stronger.
They have way better range, can snipe mothership cores and deal with other air units way better, aren't scared of towers, rape bldgs, etc.
=====
Tempest.
Sick fast move speed, sick range, cheap ass yamato like ability (that comes for free) only it kills over time instead of immediately, but it does twice? as much damage. So you can rush this unit, and harass with it, disintegrate key structures and towers that would try to deal with your air. Queens, spores, turrets, vikings, all get D'd and then you run away or move/shoot harass with your 2.75 move speed and 15 range and 450 life.
Standard build is to FE, rush an oracle to harass, start rallying tempest. GG
====
Disruptors.
These feel kinda meh. I mean they can be sick good, and fun to use, but they just seem like kind of a crappy design. It's 100/300 to build which is a massive investment for something so fragile and risky. Like even if you do rush and drop 2 on their economy to kill ALL of their workers, you lose so much that it almost doesn't seem like you came out ahead if at all.
And in a battle, they are kind of like reavers that can only shoot once every 30 seconds and cost a ton more.
The unit is just so plain and boring compared to everything else.
Also it is too much overlap with other stuff. Storm, collosus. Protoss doesn't NEED more aoe really.
The unit is also a bit weird in the fact that it looks like an air unit, and is somewhat large, but it's a ground unit that can flow through other ground units (even enemy ones), and then it goes real fast, then blows it's load, and moves real slow again. The unit just seems too clunky and weird for a design standpoint, and especially coming from a super intelligent race such as the protoss.
Honestly just feels like blizzard is trying to make something work for this model they designed back in WOL alpha that they tried to use as the trilobite, then the sentry, then the replicant, and that AA thing, etc. I mean it's ok to scrap a unit model completely guys. You don't HAVE to force something to work just because you have it or spent time on it. It's like ending a bad relationship with a job or gf, you don't try to make something work because you put in the effort, you view it as a waste of your time and try to forget it asap.
====
The oracle stasis ward thing looks dumb. I hope they change the animation and all that. Imho just make it almost exactly like the stasis for the arbiter in BW. Crystal everything affected.
And I have a sneaking suspicion that this ability is broken at this point in the game. You could open oracles to harass and safely defend infinite waves of attacks by buying time indefinitely for your larger splash units and tech or a nexus canon, etc. etc.
I'm talking about like opening FE>2 stargate>mass oracles would be viable and possibly unstoppable.
Btw, the stasis doesn't work on air right? Maybe it might be better if it ONLY worked on air. Since now there is no nexus canon and early/mid game air rushes might be a bit more problematic for protoss again. It might be a decent idea to have it be able to freeze clumps of corruptors/mutas/banshees/drops so you can get stuff around/under it or get a storm/Feedback ready, etc. (do units regen life/mana in stasis like in bw? Even while cloaked? Does it hit burrowed units? Do burrow roaches regen fast?)
On December 09 2014 18:43 KeksX wrote: Ravagers are first and foremost a solution to the forcefield issue for Zerg, so moving them to lair tech would basically get rid of most of their usefulness since on lair forcefields aren't that much of an issue anymore.
I think the Ravager being so strong in the inital design is because of usual zerg AA being so goddamn weak. Hydras and Corruptors just don't cut it against P and T airballs. You need fungals and perfect engagements or else you'll eat shit, so Blizzard went on and made the ravagar a decent tanky AA unit to support the weak zerg AA.
I'd prefer seeing the Hydra and Corruptor buffed and the Ravager being more of a "better Roach" that breaks forcefields instead of an almost completely new unit. Even though Ravagers are tanky, in most engagements against ground armies I've seen they are treated like another spellcaster due to their cost and ability, which is not what the Roach was at all.
Actually no, protoss using FF that earlier and ravager being able to negate all that mana for free is basically counterfeiting the ability and unit all together. Especially since protoss has to invest all that gas into a shitty unit body that doesn't even compare to the ravagers body.
And FF is definitely useful throughout the game, especially mid game where protoss can cut an army in half, then win the game. Or cut your defense off while they destroy your hatch and TP out.
Ravager as AA is silly. First of all it's really hard to land that shit on anything, let alone air units (even with the pee line down fro the air). The only exception to this is late game with massed stacked air units coupled with fungal and tons of bile shots. As it is now, zerg has to like mass queens to deal with mass voids, which is pretty bad. So definitely a great improvement imho.
Well but thats the problem about forcefields: Everything that does not completely destroy does not counter it. Thats what meant when I said "it's an off/on ability". Could you think of a counter to forcefields that does not completely negate them?
Also yeah, Forcefields are usfeul throughout the game, but the longer the game goes on, the less effeciency they actually have. Simplest example are the massive T3 units.
The last part I don't understand, first you say that AA except for lategame then you go about mass queens which are obviously not lategame? I think Ravager AA is better than you want to admit.
Also, I played the new version yesterday. It's probably because my opponents were just diamond and up, but I stilll melted whole army flocks with Ravager's bile. The opportunity is still definitel ythere!
On December 10 2014 03:05 Existor wrote: We're proud to release Archon Mode as small extension of LotV Custom. 1st post was also updated with all the information about new game mode
If they found that forcefields are an issue why just don't move the time warp ability from the MSC to the sentry? Obviously scaling it down in size, balance it with mana and then buff accordingly the other gateway units in order to let protoss players play with their units and not using them just as meat shields for the colossi?
Right, I think Excistor missed that point when he's defending them.
Aw :\
I'm not defending Ravagers. I don't like them as fire-unit, I don't like that they have no building. It shows that blizzards are lazy sometimes.
Those units need some fixes, maybe they should cost 125 gas (overal with roach), or they should have no basic attack.
Anyway, blizzard can do any exotic change to them, and explain it with their reasons (i.e. ravagers are too strong vs air -> nerf corrosive bile from 60 to 30 damage for example), making unit useless in other ways and leaving it as only FF counter. Those are just examples. I hope they make something cool with ravager and keep this unit at tier1.
Remember Overlord creep spread after evolution chamber is done? It was very cool, a zergy way to do something similar with photon rush and bunker rush. Why it can't be nerfed, like less creep spreading or make it as upgrade? Nope, they just hiddenly nerfed it back to lair, leaving zergs with mostly mid and late game tools.
In response to ETisME, most people here have already said that the disruptor may need a bit of tweaking on damage/speed/debuff after attacking etc., but generally speaking, I think it is actually really well received. Check out some gameplay that I posted to help give you an idea.
Also, on that note, I made another video from the Legacy of the Void custom map this time with coL.Midday. You guys can check it out here:
Hope you enjoy~ I'll probably be making more, but it's really hard to get people to custom game with this season... Literally no one is actively on and even though I'd love to play a ton of PvT there are barely any on.. and those who are on do not want to play >.> I'll see what I can do
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UJ3DUQd.png)
