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On January 18 2019 11:58 evilfatsh1t wrote:
yeah getting rid of positions in matchmaking seems best for ranked overall.
i dont agree with the idea that you can call yourself a diamond player because youre good at your one trick but be gold for every other lane/champion.
what that should actually mean is youre a gold player who happens to be particularly good at one champion.
disagree. no player is that bad at their off roles.
if you hit diamond on any character you're already demonstrating game sense skills that will cause you to outperform anyone in gold/plat even on off roles and champs.
even weird playstyle champs like singed and a.sol translate lots of macro skills to other champions that low elo simply lacks.
even if you play a different role, you don't suddenly forget how to roam, how to abuse a power spike, how to position, when to engage, where to ward, etc.
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IDK, my friend got to D5 last year playing basically only Amumu jungle, but he is like a Silver level laner and probably couldn't get any other role into Gold.
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ok diamond to gold was a bit of an exaggeration but my point still stands. it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a diamond 1 riven one trick may only be diamond 5 when he jungles or supports or something. if he gets autofilled in a diamond 1-2 game then that team is almost guaranteed to lose.
also there are plenty of players who play less mechanically intensive champions in roles such as jg or top and then get autofilled to adc and cant kite for shit. or players who get autofilled to support and dont actually know how to dictate bot lane.
basically what im saying is its pretty common to find players that get autofilled and play at a level thats distinctly below the mmr they are matched in. without positional ranked mm theyd average out at like diamond 3 maybe because they dont get their ideal role all the time and id say that rank is a much fairer analysis of their overall skill.
i believe this was what the old ranked system was like but i cant say for sure since i didnt play back then.
and there we go. clutz comes up with a real life example. im sure there are many more since i can say i have experience with boosted autofilled people in matchmaking also.
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On January 18 2019 13:03 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2019 11:58 evilfatsh1t wrote:
yeah getting rid of positions in matchmaking seems best for ranked overall.
i dont agree with the idea that you can call yourself a diamond player because youre good at your one trick but be gold for every other lane/champion.
what that should actually mean is youre a gold player who happens to be particularly good at one champion. disagree. no player is that bad at their off roles. if you hit diamond on any character you're already demonstrating game sense skills that will cause you to outperform anyone in gold/plat even on off roles and champs. even weird playstyle champs like singed and a.sol translate lots of macro skills to other champions that low elo simply lacks. even if you play a different role, you don't suddenly forget how to roam, how to abuse a power spike, how to position, when to engage, where to ward, etc.
But you literally do, that's why people don't just snap their fingers and swap roles at the pro level. How do you know how to roam when you don't know the ins and outs of wave manipulation in your lane? How do you know how to abuse a power spike if you don't know the common powerspikes of the champions played in that role relative to your own? Positioning/engaing I'll give you to a degree, but the positional needs of a tank top laner and a hypercarry vary greatly. And how do you know where to ward in a lane that you're unfamiliar with? Take for example the safe ward you see players place slightly outside of tribrush in river on bot side if the enemy jungler has a good level 2 gank, so you can see it before it comes, that's something I know about from playing 1000s of games as support, however I know next to nothing about warding times/locations for top lane.
And that's all just differences from lane and says nothing about a jungler to a laner or a laner to a jungler.
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IDK, my friend got to D5 last year playing basically only Amumu jungle, but he is like a Silver level laner and probably couldn't get any other role into Gold.
I play jungle (specifically Rek'sai/Elise) at a diamond level. I think I could get plat with every single role given 50 games. Would I get Plat on every role if you chose my champ: For example: Riven/Yas/Draven. Probably not. I think your friend could get at least high gold with enough time on a basic enough champ.
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Probably with enough time. But isn't that just saying, "well he can practice and get better"?
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On January 18 2019 15:04 cLutZ wrote:
Probably with enough time. But isn't that just saying, "well he can practice and get better"?
How much time is "enough time"? I reckon most people (let's say 90%) who are high plat can do it in 50 games. What I'm trying to say is someone who is diamond can get to gold better than a gold player can get their non-mains to gold. Why? Because they understand the game on average better than an actual gold player, proving that they're fundemantally better players.
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what youre talking about is slightly unrelated to the original point.
the diamond player may have an easier time getting his other roles to gold than a player whose peak is gold, but that doesnt make that player a diamond player. if 4/5 roles for him are gold then the player should be seen as a gold player and being matched with other golds without role assignments would make for overall fairer matchmaking. keep in mind in some cases a player may not even play at his peak level for every champion in his role. if hes a riven one trick and he sucks ass at every other typical top laner then you cant even argue hes a diamond player when he gets his top role. hes just a diamond player when he plays riven
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On January 18 2019 16:48 evilfatsh1t wrote:
what youre talking about is slightly unrelated to the original point.
the diamond player may have an easier time getting his other roles to gold than a player whose peak is gold, but that doesnt make that player a diamond player. if 4/5 roles for him are gold then the player should be seen as a gold player and being matched with other golds without role assignments would make for overall fairer matchmaking. keep in mind in some cases a player may not even play at his peak level for every champion in his role. if hes a riven one trick and he sucks ass at every other typical top laner then you cant even argue hes a diamond player when he gets his top role. hes just a diamond player when he plays riven
So then they should shit on golds because in the 1/10 games he plays on not riven he's gold level? i don't get how you balance a queue around that unless you force people to play every role once every 5 games lol.
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On January 18 2019 17:47 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2019 16:48 evilfatsh1t wrote:
what youre talking about is slightly unrelated to the original point.
the diamond player may have an easier time getting his other roles to gold than a player whose peak is gold, but that doesnt make that player a diamond player. if 4/5 roles for him are gold then the player should be seen as a gold player and being matched with other golds without role assignments would make for overall fairer matchmaking. keep in mind in some cases a player may not even play at his peak level for every champion in his role. if hes a riven one trick and he sucks ass at every other typical top laner then you cant even argue hes a diamond player when he gets his top role. hes just a diamond player when he plays riven So then they should shit on golds because in the 1/10 games he plays on not riven he's gold level? i don't get how you balance a queue around that unless you force people to play every role once every 5 games lol.
Isn't that just the old system, just without the randomness of pick order?
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On January 18 2019 18:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2019 17:47 AdsMoFro wrote:On January 18 2019 16:48 evilfatsh1t wrote:
what youre talking about is slightly unrelated to the original point.
the diamond player may have an easier time getting his other roles to gold than a player whose peak is gold, but that doesnt make that player a diamond player. if 4/5 roles for him are gold then the player should be seen as a gold player and being matched with other golds without role assignments would make for overall fairer matchmaking. keep in mind in some cases a player may not even play at his peak level for every champion in his role. if hes a riven one trick and he sucks ass at every other typical top laner then you cant even argue hes a diamond player when he gets his top role. hes just a diamond player when he plays riven So then they should shit on golds because in the 1/10 games he plays on not riven he's gold level? i don't get how you balance a queue around that unless you force people to play every role once every 5 games lol. Isn't that just the old system, just without the randomness of pick order?
So we go backwards in the effective balance of games? People like playing their main roles for as much as possible? Does autofill suck? Sure. But beats having 3 support mains on your team trying to CS as you smash your head into the keyboard because you got fucked by rng. This method is way better.
As far as position ranks, it's way more difficult to implement. I'll wait to see how they go.
Anyways, my entire point was that a diamond player IS better than a gold player even not on their one trick. They'll learn faster and know the game in general at a higher level than the average gold player.
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On January 18 2019 13:37 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2019 13:03 Frolossus wrote:On January 18 2019 11:58 evilfatsh1t wrote:
yeah getting rid of positions in matchmaking seems best for ranked overall.
i dont agree with the idea that you can call yourself a diamond player because youre good at your one trick but be gold for every other lane/champion.
what that should actually mean is youre a gold player who happens to be particularly good at one champion. disagree. no player is that bad at their off roles. if you hit diamond on any character you're already demonstrating game sense skills that will cause you to outperform anyone in gold/plat even on off roles and champs. even weird playstyle champs like singed and a.sol translate lots of macro skills to other champions that low elo simply lacks. even if you play a different role, you don't suddenly forget how to roam, how to abuse a power spike, how to position, when to engage, where to ward, etc. But you literally do, that's why people don't just snap their fingers and swap roles at the pro level. How do you know how to roam when you don't know the ins and outs of wave manipulation in your lane? How do you know how to abuse a power spike if you don't know the common powerspikes of the champions played in that role relative to your own? Positioning/engaing I'll give you to a degree, but the positional needs of a tank top laner and a hypercarry vary greatly. And how do you know where to ward in a lane that you're unfamiliar with? Take for example the safe ward you see players place slightly outside of tribrush in river on bot side if the enemy jungler has a good level 2 gank, so you can see it before it comes, that's something I know about from playing 1000s of games as support, however I know next to nothing about warding times/locations for top lane. And that's all just differences from lane and says nothing about a jungler to a laner or a laner to a jungler.
no, you do in fact pick up all of that as you play. you can't play against it effectively if you don't learn it yourself.
every time you have a teammate that does something that irritates you, you know immediately not to do that if you get filled.
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This may just be my old man views talking, but I don’t think being ok at many things makes you better than someone who is very good at one thing. Like in star craft everyone agreed that someone with only three builds (one for each race) who played all of those to a diamond and level was better than someone who knew 9 builds (three for each race) but could only play any of them to a gold level. And I think that’s true even for the people with one build who 6 pooled, or cannon rushed, or 4 gated in every match up. You are as good as the best thing you can reliably do.
Edit: man, I bet kids these days don’t even know what a six pool is, what with starting with 12 workers and all that nonsense
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Can we go back to nobody posting anything? I liked that time a lot more.
Have you guys collectively hit your head?
The ranked system can only ever account for things you actually play, how is it even relevant what the riven one trick would do if he had to play support 10 games in a row. Do you want to force people to play offrole? Nobody fucking cares what happens if you are forced to play another role regularly, it's a stupid theoretical scenario and almost all people would quit if that happens.
Your rank now automatically shows your ranking of getting your main 9 out of 10 times and being autofilled 1 of 10.
Just because in your stupid opinion you should be judged by something that is never relevant doesn't mean the system is flawed, it's your brain that is flawed.
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Yes, pregame griefing is a thing of the past, I might get a PB troll maybe once in 50 games, it's pretty rare. Never been held hostage since the new PB was brought out. People demanding roles, then feeding was also one of the biggest tilters in the game.
I like the new PB, just not this idea. This is basically a reward for people who are good at one or two roles. I also don't see how they can effectively accommodate for all the scenarios. Like the blog points out that a high elo player might ask to switch to his main, effectively putting his team at a massive advantage. Even if the system is able to 'detect' this, it basically makes this whole concept of position ranks moot, you're already in champ select. It would also need a fairly large sample size to figure out the behavior of a player: totally open to exploitation if you figure out how things work under the hood until the system catches on.
Also, I finally own every champion in this god damn game. Totally forgot I could use champion shards for blue essence, I had over 40k stacked up.
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On January 19 2019 00:15 General_Winter wrote:
This may just be my old man views talking, but I don’t think being ok at many things makes you better than someone who is very good at one thing. Like in star craft everyone agreed that someone with only three builds (one for each race) who played all of those to a diamond and level was better than someone who knew 9 builds (three for each race) but could only play any of them to a gold level. And I think that’s true even for the people with one build who 6 pooled or cannon rushed, or 4 gated in every match up. You are as good as the best thing you can reliably do.
I think it's different in LoL because it's a team game with distinct roles, which means there are a lot things that might seem meaningless to one role, but are very important to others. I'm not saying you can't learn those things without playing other roles, but you'll learn them much faster like that. I mean stuff like:
- non-junlgers with jungler experience being better at warding due to knowing how jungle camps work
- junglers with laner experience having easier time understanding why their laners might choose not to help them when they're getting invaded.
- junglers with no idea about lane management sometimes doing more harm than good when visiting the lane.
I must add that your example was one of the worst aspects of starcraft (or at least its ladder system) in my opinion. Diamond cannon rusher isn't better than platinum player if he can beat him only in the first game of a bo9.
What I like about LoL is that it's not possible to cannon rush yourself to diamond league in this game.
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On January 19 2019 01:31 Sent. wrote:
What I like about LoL is that it's not possible to cannon rush yourself to diamond league in this game.
Tell that to the random boosting strat Riot has to nerf in the following patch. 
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On January 19 2019 02:59 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2019 01:31 Sent. wrote:
What I like about LoL is that it's not possible to cannon rush yourself to diamond league in this game. Tell that to the random boosting strat Riot has to nerf in the following patch.
or to the skill shots scripts with which you can be in bronze in game knowledge but if you are able to hit skillshots and not getting hit you can reach master, maybe even challenger
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On January 19 2019 03:14 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2019 02:59 Jek wrote:On January 19 2019 01:31 Sent. wrote:
What I like about LoL is that it's not possible to cannon rush yourself to diamond league in this game. Tell that to the random boosting strat Riot has to nerf in the following patch. or to the skill shots scripts with which you can be in bronze in game knowledge but if you are able to hit skillshots and not getting hit you can reach master, maybe even challenger
That's exaggerated, I don't think there's anyone that bad in masters. But there are some people who are pretty close to what you're thinking, like rat Irl.
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EPT
