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On January 25 2018 07:27 Numy wrote:
Does top suck? Every point I've heard him raise mostly sounds like whining about being unable to play the exact same champ pool in the exact same way every season. Sounds like a man that just wishes it was red pot ignite win lane win game. Completely ignoring laning is a very small section of actually playing a full league of legends game. Very good players don't lose to bad auto-filled top laners. Stalling lane doesn't matter since the good player just uses his presence on the map to enable his team. Just look at the stats. Tanks aren't even good in solo Q yet that's the focus of all the rage?
Essentially his whole premise is flawed. There may be issues in the game right now but it's blown so far out of proportion by certain voices in the community that use there fanbases to stir hysteria. This mimics the whole "adc2017" spam that happened last year. The role was never weak in 2017 but that's the narrative that formed. So while changes do need to happen, there's no real point in being so crazy over the top lane balance or expecting a massive overhaul to come undernight. Meddler posts his thoughts, which people have been asking for, while they evaluate the problem. If they rushed out some changes there would be an even bigger backlash so instead you get some insight in to how they perceive things. How is that a bad thing?
If you look past his whiny tantrums, it's hard, his points are
a) Tanks are way too forgiving to play.
b) The few champs that can actually lane vs a tank incidentally destroy most non-tanks too.
c) Item costs for bruisers/fighters need to be tweaked.
d) Toplane is extremely boring and frustrating to play currently due to it either be a lockdown farmfest or completely one-sided matchup.
e) Way harder to use your lead to snowball the game compared to all other roles.
Riot has over the last couple of years been forcing tanks down our throat in toplane and whenever there's a hard counter to a blind pick tank (Fiora for instance) it gets nerfed before the meta even have a chance to adapt.
Meddler's post might as well just have been a collection of links to toplaners Reddit/Twitter posts. It's issues everyone playing the lane have known for years.
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You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish.
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On January 26 2018 04:38 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 02:51 cLutZ wrote:
Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. He should get a rework that wouldn't change his Q. Stuff like turning E into a skillshot, adding some passive to the ult or replacing W with something that requires more apm wouldn't harm Nunu's identity.
On E, it depends. If they make it like Ryze's Q rework, it will totally ruin his identity. If they gave it real range and the ability to detonate for a stun past a certain range then it would be and OK change, but they have screwed up most of thier Targets>Skillshot reworks, so no fail here. Personally, IMO they don't need to change anything, and certainly not bloodboil. Using BB during laning phase is exactly the kind of actually intelligent choice that jungle should be more about instead of "sick mechanics". We have 4 other positions that are all about mechanics. I'd prefer jungle to be pushed back to a place where SKT could just bring back Benji because he's smart and not worry that he can barely wardhop on Lee Sin.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 05:00 Numy wrote:
You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish.
1. It is a known issue that streamers that are just wrong find a lot of support for their views on Reddit, in large part because of their subscribers.
2. Confusing solo queue meta and pro play meta (as Hash frequently does) to make your point about what's OP is a criminal offense. Doing this deliberately (as Hash sometimes does) should be excommunicable.
3. Winrate statistics are a horribly abused disease, but even the most cursory glance at top lane solo queue winrates shows absolutely no sign of tank dominance. In fact, I see one tank in the top 10, and ~5 tanks in the bottom 10.
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What is a tank?
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now? Mao, Sion, Cho, Ornn and Malphite is what I can come up with. Maybe Mundo if you're being generous about being able to go top.
That's about 10% of all toplane champions and while their play rate might be a bit above average, I still don't see all that many tanks up there.
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On January 26 2018 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 05:00 Numy wrote:
You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish. 1. It is a known issue that streamers that are just wrong find a lot of support for their views on Reddit, in large part because of their subscribers. 2. Confusing solo queue meta and pro play meta (as Hash frequently does) to make your point about what's OP is a criminal offense. Doing this deliberately (as Hash sometimes does) should be excommunicable. 3. Winrate statistics are a horribly abused disease, but even the most cursory glance at top lane solo queue winrates shows absolutely no sign of tank dominance. In fact, I see one tank in the top 10, and ~5 tanks in the bottom 10.
I may have written that weird but I didn't intentionally try confuse the two metas. Instead I looked at solo q meta for the past few weeks and just couldn't figure out where this tank dominance was. Then I went and looked at the pro meta thinking maybe it's there. After finding it no where I got even more confused. Should have posted thoughts in a bit more constructed way, I am sorry for that 
Winrates aren't the be all and end all. Play rates aren't particularly high for tanks in top lane either, outside of Ornn. So it's not like they just in every game. Matchup winrates between people like Fiora and the tanks are pretty dam good. So I'm just trying hard to find out why this sentiment is happening. The way people are talking is as if they are in every game being unbeatable. You'd think some of the data would correspond?
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On January 26 2018 06:08 Fildun wrote:
What is a tank?
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now? Mao, Sion, Cho, Ornn and Malphite is what I can come up with. Maybe Mundo if you're being generous about being able to go top.
That's about 10% of all toplane champions and while their play rate might be a bit above average, I still don't see all that many tanks up there.
I feel like champions like Gnar and Jax might cross into the tank category, but they can also build Phantom Dancer and Bloodthirster so maybe they're not the best fit.
You also have more 'pure' tanks from jungle like Sej/Nunu but that's not really relevant.
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On January 26 2018 03:55 Alaric wrote:The execute was supposed to give him a way to finish his opponent. Getting onto them with his mobility, then using the passive to stay there and evade skillshots and stuff with the MS, and since he didn't have as high a burst as other AP assassins, the additional damage on autos was a reward for sticking onto them and giving him the ability to actually finish the job without relying on E + Lichbane or something. Obviously they put too much move speed differential and too much damage on the kit anyway. I'm more annoyed by Riven than Ekko design-wise, personally. 
I'd like the hear that, actually. I wish they'd rework her, myself.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 06:11 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 26 2018 05:00 Numy wrote:
You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish. 1. It is a known issue that streamers that are just wrong find a lot of support for their views on Reddit, in large part because of their subscribers. 2. Confusing solo queue meta and pro play meta (as Hash frequently does) to make your point about what's OP is a criminal offense. Doing this deliberately (as Hash sometimes does) should be excommunicable. 3. Winrate statistics are a horribly abused disease, but even the most cursory glance at top lane solo queue winrates shows absolutely no sign of tank dominance. In fact, I see one tank in the top 10, and ~5 tanks in the bottom 10. I may have written that weird but I didn't intentionally try confuse the two metas. Instead I looked at solo q meta for the past few weeks and just couldn't figure out where this tank dominance was. Then I went and looked at the pro meta thinking maybe it's there. After finding it no where I got even more confused. Should have posted thoughts in a bit more constructed way, I am sorry for that Winrates aren't the be all and end all. Play rates aren't particularly high for tanks in top lane either, outside of Ornn. So it's not like they just in every game. Matchup winrates between people like Fiora and the tanks are pretty dam good. So I'm just trying hard to find out why this sentiment is happening. The way people are talking is as if they are in every game being unbeatable. You'd think some of the data would correspond?
No, I wasn't criticizing you. I was pointing out that you were trying to box with ghosts, because Hash confuses the two deliberately in order to make his point.
Hash isn't incentivized to be truthful. He's incentivized to say things that gets him publicity. Why people want to balance according to what he says is baffling to me.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 06:08 Fildun wrote:
What is a tank?
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now? Mao, Sion, Cho, Ornn and Malphite is what I can come up with. Maybe Mundo if you're being generous about being able to go top.
That's about 10% of all toplane champions and while their play rate might be a bit above average, I still don't see all that many tanks up there.
By winrates in Diamond+ top lane:
#8 Sion
#24 Malphite
#29 Maokai
#31 Poppy
#38 Cho'Gath
#46 Shen
#47 Ornn
#48 Gragas
#50 Tahm Kench
#51 Nautilus
#53 Dr. Mundo
#55 Galio
#58 Nunu
#tankmeta
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They should make it still channel but not carry units in stasis
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Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it.
This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard.
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now?
That has less to do with tanks in general, and more to do with the fact that at any one time, only a few dozen champions are considered competitively viable. Look at ADC, the role rarely has more than 3 or 4 champions that see repeated play. Good news is you can still run most champs with moderate success in soloQ, people just always jump on the pro pick train and play what they see in LCS, instead of sticking with a champion for a few seasons.
You should only talk about soloQ win rates to support your argument, not construct your argument from those stats in itself. Udyr is sporting almost 55% winrate in Diamond, no one's saying he needs a nerf.
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With the changes to support items I think Zoe is a top tier support now. Maybe a little less in competitive where you might need you support to initiate and if you can get Zoe you probably want to get her mid resources, but cost benefit of her not being mid aside she’s really good bot now.
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Why are you guys jumping on a "tank op" meme train when it's not at all what it's about. lol
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Not sure what you meant because of the typo Gahlo, are you asking why I dislike Riven's design?
The bullshit damage is less of an issue (and I don't know how much the runes actually impacted that part) but overall the whole "long cooldowns but with a passive and the way her q works that makes her have little downtime and decent damage even if she mashes abilities or on the contrary whiffs several of them", the fact that her shield could for a long time serve as sustain to outlast a bunch of champions until they nerfed its duration, the fact the she actually has an AD-scaling shield, that she actually moves faster than a champion with boots when she spams her abilities (was more egregious before the changes to base MS obv.), etc.
I dislike how overall her design points to few weaknesses unless you make her very binary (since you can pretty much only tune cooldowns (and you need to make them absurdly long to punish but then it can punish super hard) and damage.
She can also get back pretty easily in the midgame thanks to her base damage +execute to just jump squishies, and big ratios keep her relevant even on low items.
On the other hand she's a lot easier to handle later in the game (assuming you have ranged hard cc) so she loses a lot in usefulness, unless you're good at animation cancelling... because then she can instantly 100-0 people regardless with little counterplay (in the sense that it depends much more on whether her player can execute well than your contingencies and positioning), which is less-than-ideal.
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On January 26 2018 08:22 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard.
Zoe is certainly unique because all the other hard pokers have been reworked, but Ornn is decidedly not unique.
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On January 26 2018 09:01 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 08:22 DarkCore wrote:Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard. Zoe is certainly unique because all the other hard pokers have been reworked, but Ornn is decidedly not unique.
He was before they nerfed him by removing being unstoppable when using W. :^)
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EPT
