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United States37500 Posts
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There is no new champion this patch.
Patch 8.2: Live on Jan. 24th, 2018
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance.
I feel like this is going to work out badly. For example, how do you lane as Kassadin?
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I feel like all spells should draw aggro...
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Oh god the Nunu changes went through
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On January 24 2018 04:29 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I feel like this is going to work out badly. For example, how do you lane as Kassadin?
You don't. They took him out and put him out of his misery. Dam crazy.
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On January 24 2018 05:32 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 04:29 Ansibled wrote:Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I feel like this is going to work out badly. For example, how do you lane as Kassadin? You don't. They took him out and put him out of his misery. Dam crazy.
RIP Cass too.
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On January 24 2018 05:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 05:32 Numy wrote:On January 24 2018 04:29 Ansibled wrote:Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I feel like this is going to work out badly. For example, how do you lane as Kassadin? You don't. They took him out and put him out of his misery. Dam crazy. RIP Cass too.
The difference being Cassio can E in lane to kill the enemy, while Kassadin has to Q in lane to not die.
How does this work with Lucian Q, will I take aggro if I use it on a minion but hit the enemy?
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On January 24 2018 04:38 cLutZ wrote:
I feel like all spells should draw aggro...
I always thought that too, I mean if you manage to land the spell
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Damn. Swain rework looks dope and Nunu changes equal lol eksdee, time for some delicious Azir/Kayle+Nunu botlane.
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On January 24 2018 06:10 Jek wrote:
Damn. Swain rework looks dope and Nunu changes equal lol eksdee, time for some delicious Azir/Kayle+Nunu botlane.
I think Nunu is a trap, he was only slightly useful in a team with autoattacker carry, otherwise totally obsolete, now he will be slightly useful with more champs, but still only slightly useful, not full garbage, but not strong at all
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Nunu is useful but you have to put some amount of faith in your teammates and there's not much you can do if they suck.
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dam, this will be weird playing support...
really need to try that.
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List of Removed Items
Sightstone
Ruby Sightstone
Frost Queen's Claim
Talisman of Ascension
Face of the Mountain
Riot :smirk:
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Ah yeah Jinx buffs, I love that champ. Prob not enough to make her competitive, but enough to play in yoloQ.
Nunu gets a 40% AP buff on targeted champion? Is this some kind of a joke? It caps, but that's still retarded. Cass is going to be laughing all the way to the bank, now she gets MS and some free AP to make running from her impossible. Not to mention Syndra...
I think Nunu is a trap, he was only slightly useful in a team with autoattacker carry, otherwise totally obsolete, now he will be slightly useful with more champs, but still only slightly useful, not full garbage, but not strong at all
You're wrong about this because Nunu is not a conventional jungler. He's a jungler with strong objective control and neutralising the opposing jungler by running around the map warding, and consuming big jungle creeps when he sees the opponent out of position. His ganks aren't that strong, but he's also a cancerous counter ganker and he shuts down melee champs in a 2vs2 situation incredibly hard. Now his ally in the 2vs2 situation will be dishing out extra damage on top of bonus MS, that's quite a big buff imo.
His teamfight is mediocre, I agree, but there's a reason people like Bengi ran him to great success. Smart junglers can abuse Nunu hard, your normal yoloQ guy will probably fail miserably on him.
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Why does everyone have to be generic badass #47, what’s wrong with Clint Eastwood get off my lawn once out of 130?
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Nunu Azir going to shoot up in priority in pro games lol. It's not like Azir wasn't already high.
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Nunu buffed Zoe would be absolutely terrifying. Anybody remotely squishy will die to a long range Q.
Other stuff like Diana or Kayle and of course azir as well, stuff that double scales off both the attack speed and AP.
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Zoe doesn’t need ap to one shot my dude
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The more I look at this new swain the shittier it looks. I don't mind his abilities, some of them seem pretty interesting. It's just his visual design is just so bad. It's just red/black noise. Vlad works as an edgelord because he feels more like a goofy caricature to me. He makes cheesy punies all the time. This feels like what happened with Kayn just being edgelord anime douche. Not a fan.
Instead they deleted Swain and introduced a Vlad update lol.
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You know they'll remove the puns if they ever remake Vlad, it's just that his voice lines are old.
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Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance.
I never noticed that this wasn't already the case.
What in the actual fuck... Why would damaging spells NOT draw aggro... Ever?!
Rito plz.
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I don’t understand nevermove being a line skillshot why not try something new like a champion with all circular skills idk.
Personally I would have considered his w and ult untouchables. Swain e while kinda interesting did funnel his play pattern and q was always pretty jank although I thought the mini rework version was kinda cool.
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On January 24 2018 08:52 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I never noticed that this wasn't already the case. What in the actual fuck... Why would damaging spells NOT draw aggro... Ever?! Rito plz.
I'm honestly not sure how it's possible to play the game and not notice, lol.
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On January 24 2018 08:52 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I never noticed that this wasn't already the case. What in the actual fuck... Why would damaging spells NOT draw aggro... Ever?! Rito plz.
That's why Pantheon was strong and Ryze completely oppressive in top lane.
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On January 24 2018 09:33 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 08:52 Nemireck wrote:Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I never noticed that this wasn't already the case. What in the actual fuck... Why would damaging spells NOT draw aggro... Ever?! Rito plz. That's why Pantheon was strong and Ryze completely oppressive in top lane.
Oo good point. Maybe now we can get back the ryze I loved
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On January 24 2018 08:53 Slusher wrote:
I don’t understand nevermove being a line skillshot why not try something new like a champion with all circular skills idk.
Personally I would have considered his w and ult untouchables. Swain e while kinda interesting did funnel his play pattern and q was always pretty jank although I thought the mini rework version was kinda cool.
I dunno, I mostly agree with you but I'm more upset about the thematic and visual changes. Generic evil guy with black/red colors, don't we have enough of those? The skins fix the poopy red/black theme, and tyrant swain still has some raven references, but it's not much comfort to people without skins. The angel pose for R is really static and replacing the cane for a demon hand just screams "I want to be cooler". If I hadn't recently gotten lucky with a tyrant skin I'd probably never touch Swain again.
Mechanically speaking though I don't think they actually butchered W and R that hard. W is different but still interesting, R's cooldown is too long but that's salvageable, though I'd rather have the old one back (if it came with a real demon bird).
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I have to agree with the sentiments echoed in the patches comments about Ornn. I think his W being unstoppable was one of the coolest parts about his kit and let good Ornn players make great plays. I would have rather saw a damage reduction or cool down increase than take off unstoppable.
Also that relic shield heal nerf that was intended to kill relic adc is a thresh nerf in disguise. The worst part is for low level players who are bad with getting the relic stacks on him in the first place. So now even if they hit the stack the health received will be nerfed
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IMO all the support gold generation items need to be fixed. There is a significant problem with them generating gold in different ways that appears to, in part, drive the support meta in ways that hinder fun both in pro games and soloQ. Ornn should just be 100% changed. There is no need for the modern Ornn. I think it would be more fun if they made him into a mana using AD Rumble where he can really disrupt midgame teamfights.
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Also that relic shield heal nerf that was intended to kill relic adc is a thresh nerf in disguise
He could use a buff right now, he's very far from his best state. Current itemization doesn't favour him and only decent ability ratios/CDs make him a bit mediocre unless you land godlike hooks non stop. Maybe they should buff Righteous Glory again, or rework it to be more support friendly.
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On January 24 2018 16:26 cLutZ wrote:
IMO all the support gold generation items need to be fixed. There is a significant problem with them generating gold in different ways that appears to, in part, drive the support meta in ways that hinder fun both in pro games and soloQ. Ornn should just be 100% changed. There is no need for the modern Ornn. I think it would be more fun if they made him into a mana using AD Rumble where he can really disrupt midgame teamfights.
Past couple of years of champion releases haven't been kind (think ornn, zoe, azir, kalista)
From a balance perspective, I really liked the kind of champions released in 2016. AO Sol, Camille, Ivern, Jhin, Kled, Taliyah. All very unique champions with interesting playstyles/mechanics that seem to add to the game rather than hinder it.
Then you have 2017 champs where a champion like kayn exists which seems kind of similar to the 2016 style but then you have overloaded kits like Rakan/Zoe/Ornn.
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On January 24 2018 06:24 Ansibled wrote:
Nunu is useful but you have to put some amount of faith in your teammates and there's not much you can do if they suck.
It's like that for jungle in general right now. Your impact on the game is pretty negligible after 15 minutes and it turns into sheep herding. And let me tell you, Nunu is the best sheep herder in the game.
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Past couple of years of champion releases haven't been kind (think ornn, zoe, azir, kalista)
Kalista released in 2014, that's like half the age of the game. Azir is eve older haha. But yeah, the 'newer' half the champions are much more intricately designed, and tend to be stronger than the old lineup. Hence riot pushes those reworks, although I don't feel they're always that good.
All very unique champions with interesting playstyles/mechanics that seem to add to the game rather than hinder it
I like Jhin from a mechanic perspective, but I don't think he's particularly healthy. Pretty much all champions with unconventional scaling have been broken in some form at one point, think Vlad, Akali, Ryze. Luckily Lethality isn't busted anymore, or he'd be an oppressive pick again.
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Pretty big nerfs to magical footwear rune
Magical Footwear (I3)
Free boots arrival time increased from 10 min to 12 min
Takedowns time reduction increased from 30s to 45s
[Removed] No longer costs 50 gold less to upgrade to other boots.
This may just kill the rune for me. Can't really justify it on the island of top lane when could just see 1 kill and no longer getting discount on t2 is pretty big.
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Nerfing Magical Footwear but letting Stopwatch stay as is...... All they really need to do with the watch is delay it so it's not online until level 7. :-/
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On January 24 2018 08:52 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I never noticed that this wasn't already the case. What in the actual fuck... Why would damaging spells NOT draw aggro... Ever?! Rito plz.
they still dont
unless they are targeted and/or they apply on-hit effects
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TIL not everyone was a Ryze abuser in 2012
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TIL noone here understands basic laning.
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Pretty reasonable thoughts to me. I do worry about Klepto in some ways. I've been playing a bunch of Illaoi and without klepto there isn't really an attractive option to go. Hopefully they manage to find a sweet spot in rune management. Also hope this calms down some of the crazy community whining about the position.
It is kind of hilarious reading people rage about TP in top lane. Guess not a lot of the community played back in redpot ignite days. Having TP as the best option is by far the best thing to happen to top lane over the years.
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On January 24 2018 22:40 Jek wrote:
Nerfing Magical Footwear but letting Stopwatch stay as is...... All they really need to do with the watch is delay it so it's not online until level 7. :-/
Unlocking stopwatch at level 7 feels so unfair. It would be a bigger nerf to stopwatch on botlane than on sololanes. I'd rather see stopwatch be sold for free. It wouldn't change anything if you plan on upgrading it but the risk would be quite higher otherwise, but the reward still good enough.
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I think you make stopwatch cost less, not be free. 600 gold is so much.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Is it time again for Face of the MountainRemnant of the Aspect to be the new hidden OP? It looks surprisingly solid on a tanky supportish jungler that would have liked to build Sightstone if it didn't mean throwing away 800 gold. Now you're paying 1900 gold for a sightstone, 500 HP, and 10% CDR (not to mention the gold gen + gold sharing).
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On January 25 2018 04:06 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is it time again for Face of the MountainRemnant of the Aspect to be the new hidden OP? It looks surprisingly solid on a tanky supportish jungler that would have liked to build Sightstone if it didn't mean throwing away 800 gold. Now you're paying 1900 gold for a sightstone, 500 HP, and 10% CDR (not to mention the gold gen + gold sharing).
There's already a thread on r/RivenMains about it being worth trying out.
On January 25 2018 03:54 iCanada wrote:
I think you make stopwatch cost less, not be free. 600 gold is so much.
He said sold for free. You can currently sell the Stopwatch for 180.
On January 24 2018 21:41 Numy wrote:Pretty big nerfs to magical footwear rune Show nested quote +Magical Footwear (I3)
Free boots arrival time increased from 10 min to 12 min
Takedowns time reduction increased from 30s to 45s
[Removed] No longer costs 50 gold less to upgrade to other boots. This may just kill the rune for me. Can't really justify it on the island of top lane when could just see 1 kill and no longer getting discount on t2 is pretty big.
Pushing the arrival time back seems like a poor choice to me. Would make more sense to reduce the takedown time refund to me.
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Yea all it really does it make the rune even more variable. Now the fail case vs win case is so so huge. Don't like that style of balancing.
Hey look there's a new Hashinshin video with a bunch of manchilds whining. How did that guy become the voice of the people. This is more crazy than Trump being the president. Are we just in the period of history where massive jokes become serious business to people?
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It sells for 120, not 180. Still not bad when runes like mirror shell or iron skin mostly give around 100-120 gold worth of stats.
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On January 25 2018 05:16 NpG)Explosive wrote:
It sells for 120, not 180. Still not bad when runes like mirror shell or iron skin mostly give around 100-120 gold worth of stats.
You right.
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On January 25 2018 00:31 AlterKot wrote:
TIL noone here understands basic laning.
Hear hear.
But yeah I agree that I'm surprised about the things being said here. Thought most of these things were pretty common knowledge.
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Now that jungle items and support items are mutually exclusive they need to drop the shoehorned as fuck xp bonus from talisman/machete so you have a choice.
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On January 25 2018 06:23 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 00:31 AlterKot wrote:
TIL noone here understands basic laning. Hear hear. But yeah I agree that I'm surprised about the things being said here. Thought most of these things were pretty common knowledge.
Apparently it's not a big deal so maybe people didn't know because it's not a big deal.
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On January 25 2018 06:51 Slusher wrote:
Now that jungle items and support items are mutually exclusive they need to drop the shoehorned as fuck xp bonus from talisman/machete so you have a choice.
You know they won't because "the jungle items are the jungle items and the support items are the support items."
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I mean weather or not they do it for the love of god bake it into Ivern passive
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On January 25 2018 06:52 AlterKot wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 06:23 Fildun wrote:On January 25 2018 00:31 AlterKot wrote:
TIL noone here understands basic laning. Hear hear. But yeah I agree that I'm surprised about the things being said here. Thought most of these things were pretty common knowledge. https://twitter.com/RiotPhreak/status/956261368709066752Apparently it's not a big deal so maybe people didn't know because it's not a big deal.
For Cassio I’m not surprised as optimal dPS at low levels is to cancel an auto animation with your e. But I’m very surprised by kassadin.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 25 2018 06:51 Slusher wrote:
Now that jungle items and support items are mutually exclusive they need to drop the shoehorned as fuck xp bonus from talisman/machete so you have a choice.
Are they actually? I know that was on PBE but I don't think that made it to live.
On January 25 2018 05:16 Numy wrote:
Yea all it really does it make the rune even more variable. Now the fail case vs win case is so so huge. Don't like that style of balancing.
Hey look there's a new Hashinshin video with a bunch of manchilds whining. How did that guy become the voice of the people. This is more crazy than Trump being the president. Are we just in the period of history where massive jokes become serious business to people?
Streamer fanboys brigading threads have an incredible ability to shape reddit perception
*cough* LS
On January 25 2018 04:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 04:06 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is it time again for Face of the MountainRemnant of the Aspect to be the new hidden OP? It looks surprisingly solid on a tanky supportish jungler that would have liked to build Sightstone if it didn't mean throwing away 800 gold. Now you're paying 1900 gold for a sightstone, 500 HP, and 10% CDR (not to mention the gold gen + gold sharing). There's already a thread on r/RivenMains about it being worth trying out.
One, that sounds idiotic, and two, if it's remotely viable on Riven it'll be hella broken on any jungler that actually cares about the sightstone/HP.
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On January 25 2018 05:16 Numy wrote:
Yea all it really does it make the rune even more variable. Now the fail case vs win case is so so huge. Don't like that style of balancing.
Hey look there's a new Hashinshin video with a bunch of manchilds whining. How did that guy become the voice of the people. This is more crazy than Trump being the president. Are we just in the period of history where massive jokes become serious business to people?
He do have a point about why top sucks right now and how Meddler's post is just PR bullshit.
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Does top suck? Every point I've heard him raise mostly sounds like whining about being unable to play the exact same champ pool in the exact same way every season. Sounds like a man that just wishes it was red pot ignite win lane win game. Completely ignoring laning is a very small section of actually playing a full league of legends game. Very good players don't lose to bad auto-filled top laners. Stalling lane doesn't matter since the good player just uses his presence on the map to enable his team. Just look at the stats. Tanks aren't even good in solo Q yet that's the focus of all the rage?
Essentially his whole premise is flawed. There may be issues in the game right now but it's blown so far out of proportion by certain voices in the community that use there fanbases to stir hysteria. This mimics the whole "adc2017" spam that happened last year. The role was never weak in 2017 but that's the narrative that formed. So while changes do need to happen, there's no real point in being so crazy over the top lane balance or expecting a massive overhaul to come undernight. Meddler posts his thoughts, which people have been asking for, while they evaluate the problem. If they rushed out some changes there would be an even bigger backlash so instead you get some insight in to how they perceive things. How is that a bad thing?
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but why would you take the sightstone item as a jungler (which you only getter after completing the quest) when you can just get the warding smite?
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On January 25 2018 07:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 06:51 Slusher wrote:
Now that jungle items and support items are mutually exclusive they need to drop the shoehorned as fuck xp bonus from talisman/machete so you have a choice.
Are they actually? I know that was on PBE but I don't think that made it to live. Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 05:16 Numy wrote:
Yea all it really does it make the rune even more variable. Now the fail case vs win case is so so huge. Don't like that style of balancing.
Hey look there's a new Hashinshin video with a bunch of manchilds whining. How did that guy become the voice of the people. This is more crazy than Trump being the president. Are we just in the period of history where massive jokes become serious business to people? Streamer fanboys brigading threads have an incredible ability to shape reddit perception *cough* LS Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 04:40 Gahlo wrote:On January 25 2018 04:06 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is it time again for Face of the MountainRemnant of the Aspect to be the new hidden OP? It looks surprisingly solid on a tanky supportish jungler that would have liked to build Sightstone if it didn't mean throwing away 800 gold. Now you're paying 1900 gold for a sightstone, 500 HP, and 10% CDR (not to mention the gold gen + gold sharing). There's already a thread on r/RivenMains about it being worth trying out. One, that sounds idiotic, and two, if it's remotely viable on Riven it'll be hella broken on any jungler that actually cares about the sightstone/HP.
The trends they had running was a split between Spellbook and Klepto. With the nerf to Klepto, supposedly, abusing the Bandit passive provides more gold.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 25 2018 07:27 Ansibled wrote:
but why would you take the sightstone item as a jungler (which you only getter after completing the quest) when you can just get the warding smite?
In pro play, having 6 wards per back instead of 2 is certainly going to be helpful. And in solo queue, maybe you just want blue/red smite. The point is that the item isn't a gigantic waste of gold like the Sightstone items used to be.
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On January 24 2018 08:53 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 08:52 Nemireck wrote:Targeted damaging spells draw minion aggro.
Champions with spammable targeted spells, like Pantheon and Cassiopeia, put opposing laners in an awkward position: fight back and draw minion aggro, or just take the punishment they hand out. Changing this mechanic will make those champions a lot more intuitive to play against, as well as easier to balance. I never noticed that this wasn't already the case. What in the actual fuck... Why would damaging spells NOT draw aggro... Ever?! Rito plz. I'm honestly not sure how it's possible to play the game and not notice, lol.
In my case it's because I always, ALWAYS follow up my spells with an auto, or I'm already leaving minion range while the spell animation goes off.
It was always my assumption that it was something to be wary of, I never did any research that highlighted that fact otherwise, and so it was always something I figured I was working around through my lane movements naturally.
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On January 25 2018 07:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 06:51 Slusher wrote:
Now that jungle items and support items are mutually exclusive they need to drop the shoehorned as fuck xp bonus from talisman/machete so you have a choice.
Are they actually? I know that was on PBE but I don't think that made it to live.
Turns out it didn't actually go thru (Please buff ivern in this way anyway)
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Free Ass Boots moved up to row 1 in Inspiration on PBE and all previous changes, minus the 50g upgrade discount, reverted. Biscuits moved to row 2.
Feel like it's messing with the theme for the rows and moving Stopwatch down and pushing Dematerializers up would make more sense.
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What do people think about the echo buffs? Is 10% starting attack speed enouph for him to jungle. My gut says no.
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I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion.
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On January 25 2018 23:41 General_Winter wrote:
What do people think about the echo buffs? Is 10% starting attack speed enouph for him to jungle. My gut says no.
Well he could jungle before, so yes.
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On January 26 2018 00:26 Gahlo wrote:
I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion.
Why? He's not that bad now that he can't build tank
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 25 2018 08:09 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 07:27 Ansibled wrote:
but why would you take the sightstone item as a jungler (which you only getter after completing the quest) when you can just get the warding smite? In pro play, having 6 wards per back instead of 2 is certainly going to be helpful. And in solo queue, maybe you just want blue/red smite. The point is that the item isn't a gigantic waste of gold like the Sightstone items used to be.
So it seems that the green smite / new Sightstone passive is the same, i.e., if you have both you still end up with only 4 wards. Pity.
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On January 26 2018 01:00 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 00:26 Gahlo wrote:
I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion. Why? He's not that bad now that he can't build tank
I think his kit is overloaded to the point that he can never be both in the meta and healthy for gameplay.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 01:18 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 01:00 Sent. wrote:On January 26 2018 00:26 Gahlo wrote:
I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion. Why? He's not that bad now that he can't build tank I think his kit is overloaded to the point that he can never be both in the meta and healthy for gameplay.
are we playing buzzwords bingo? personally i think he's toxic for the game without meaningful choices and his non-interactive mobility creep makes the game both unfun and also antifun. his burden of knowledge contributes to a lack of clarity and endgame fantasy while inhibiting strategic diversity. plus his kit is just so binary and lacks counterplay.
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On January 26 2018 01:42 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 01:18 Gahlo wrote:On January 26 2018 01:00 Sent. wrote:On January 26 2018 00:26 Gahlo wrote:
I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion. Why? He's not that bad now that he can't build tank I think his kit is overloaded to the point that he can never be both in the meta and healthy for gameplay. are we playing buzzwords bingo? personally i think he's toxic for the game without meaningful choices and his non-interactive mobility creep makes the game both unfun and also antifun. his burden of knowledge contributes to a lack of clarity and endgame fantasy while inhibiting strategic diversity. plus his kit is just so binary and lacks counterplay.
I could have been more verbose, but what's the point?
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On January 26 2018 01:47 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 01:42 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 26 2018 01:18 Gahlo wrote:On January 26 2018 01:00 Sent. wrote:On January 26 2018 00:26 Gahlo wrote:
I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion. Why? He's not that bad now that he can't build tank I think his kit is overloaded to the point that he can never be both in the meta and healthy for gameplay. are we playing buzzwords bingo? personally i think he's toxic for the game without meaningful choices and his non-interactive mobility creep makes the game both unfun and also antifun. his burden of knowledge contributes to a lack of clarity and endgame fantasy while inhibiting strategic diversity. plus his kit is just so binary and lacks counterplay. I could have been more verbose, but what's the point?
Why is Ekko unhealthy?
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I've been mostly on board with the balance team over the last year but they have made mistakes a few times. This Nunu one is just too much for me. What is the point? There's no middle ground with this buff. He's either broken or it does nothing. Why the fuck are you pushing that kind of change when you admitted he needs a big overhaul?
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Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it.
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I'm fine with them taking nunu out into the streets and gunning him down like the degenerate he is.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
It is definitely amusing to see that Reddit thread that's like OMG NUNU CAN NOW TAKE BARON AT 20 MINUTES
Yes, he "now" can do that ...
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I miss old top lane nunu. Thems was the days.
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sucks being a Nunu player, whenever he isn’t garbage people want him nerfed asap. This buff was definitely over the top, but it didn’t need to be and he doesn’t need a rework. The last time he was meta his health got hard nerfed, they could have just reverted that change instead of this very uninteresting change. Making Nunu universally strong as opposed to stronger when the othe picks are good with him / bad against him.
Also Nunu included I hate this whole unhealthy, toxic unfun for the opponent phrases people use about champions. Designing champions around being fun for the opponent ignores the far more important thing of being fun to play.
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On January 26 2018 02:49 Numy wrote:
I've been mostly on board with the balance team over the last year but they have made mistakes a few times. This Nunu one is just too much for me. What is the point? There's no middle ground with this buff. He's either broken or it does nothing. Why the fuck are you pushing that kind of change when you admitted he needs a big overhaul?
I'd have thought Riot be blessed with the foresight of making it adaptive in some manner.
On January 26 2018 02:25 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 01:47 Gahlo wrote:On January 26 2018 01:42 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 26 2018 01:18 Gahlo wrote:On January 26 2018 01:00 Sent. wrote:On January 26 2018 00:26 Gahlo wrote:
I wish Ekko was deleted. I can't put into words how accurately I despise that champion. Why? He's not that bad now that he can't build tank I think his kit is overloaded to the point that he can never be both in the meta and healthy for gameplay. are we playing buzzwords bingo? personally i think he's toxic for the game without meaningful choices and his non-interactive mobility creep makes the game both unfun and also antifun. his burden of knowledge contributes to a lack of clarity and endgame fantasy while inhibiting strategic diversity. plus his kit is just so binary and lacks counterplay. I could have been more verbose, but what's the point? Why is Ekko unhealthy?
Why does he have a speedbost on his passive when his normal abilities all apply a slow, or is a dash/blink? Why are his auto attacks all missing health executes when he learns W?
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The execute was supposed to give him a way to finish his opponent. Getting onto them with his mobility, then using the passive to stay there and evade skillshots and stuff with the MS, and since he didn't have as high a burst as other AP assassins, the additional damage on autos was a reward for sticking onto them and giving him the ability to actually finish the job without relying on E + Lichbane or something.
Obviously they put too much move speed differential and too much damage on the kit anyway.
I'm more annoyed by Riven than Ekko design-wise, personally. 
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United States37500 Posts
On January 26 2018 03:08 iCanada wrote:
I miss old top lane nunu. Thems was the days.
Me too.
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On January 26 2018 02:51 cLutZ wrote:
Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it.
He should get a rework that wouldn't change his Q. Stuff like turning E into a skillshot, adding some passive to the ult or replacing W with something that requires more apm wouldn't harm Nunu's identity.
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On January 25 2018 07:27 Numy wrote:
Does top suck? Every point I've heard him raise mostly sounds like whining about being unable to play the exact same champ pool in the exact same way every season. Sounds like a man that just wishes it was red pot ignite win lane win game. Completely ignoring laning is a very small section of actually playing a full league of legends game. Very good players don't lose to bad auto-filled top laners. Stalling lane doesn't matter since the good player just uses his presence on the map to enable his team. Just look at the stats. Tanks aren't even good in solo Q yet that's the focus of all the rage?
Essentially his whole premise is flawed. There may be issues in the game right now but it's blown so far out of proportion by certain voices in the community that use there fanbases to stir hysteria. This mimics the whole "adc2017" spam that happened last year. The role was never weak in 2017 but that's the narrative that formed. So while changes do need to happen, there's no real point in being so crazy over the top lane balance or expecting a massive overhaul to come undernight. Meddler posts his thoughts, which people have been asking for, while they evaluate the problem. If they rushed out some changes there would be an even bigger backlash so instead you get some insight in to how they perceive things. How is that a bad thing?
If you look past his whiny tantrums, it's hard, his points are
a) Tanks are way too forgiving to play.
b) The few champs that can actually lane vs a tank incidentally destroy most non-tanks too.
c) Item costs for bruisers/fighters need to be tweaked.
d) Toplane is extremely boring and frustrating to play currently due to it either be a lockdown farmfest or completely one-sided matchup.
e) Way harder to use your lead to snowball the game compared to all other roles.
Riot has over the last couple of years been forcing tanks down our throat in toplane and whenever there's a hard counter to a blind pick tank (Fiora for instance) it gets nerfed before the meta even have a chance to adapt.
Meddler's post might as well just have been a collection of links to toplaners Reddit/Twitter posts. It's issues everyone playing the lane have known for years.
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You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish.
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On January 26 2018 04:38 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 02:51 cLutZ wrote:
Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. He should get a rework that wouldn't change his Q. Stuff like turning E into a skillshot, adding some passive to the ult or replacing W with something that requires more apm wouldn't harm Nunu's identity.
On E, it depends. If they make it like Ryze's Q rework, it will totally ruin his identity. If they gave it real range and the ability to detonate for a stun past a certain range then it would be and OK change, but they have screwed up most of thier Targets>Skillshot reworks, so no fail here. Personally, IMO they don't need to change anything, and certainly not bloodboil. Using BB during laning phase is exactly the kind of actually intelligent choice that jungle should be more about instead of "sick mechanics". We have 4 other positions that are all about mechanics. I'd prefer jungle to be pushed back to a place where SKT could just bring back Benji because he's smart and not worry that he can barely wardhop on Lee Sin.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 05:00 Numy wrote:
You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish.
1. It is a known issue that streamers that are just wrong find a lot of support for their views on Reddit, in large part because of their subscribers.
2. Confusing solo queue meta and pro play meta (as Hash frequently does) to make your point about what's OP is a criminal offense. Doing this deliberately (as Hash sometimes does) should be excommunicable.
3. Winrate statistics are a horribly abused disease, but even the most cursory glance at top lane solo queue winrates shows absolutely no sign of tank dominance. In fact, I see one tank in the top 10, and ~5 tanks in the bottom 10.
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What is a tank?
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now? Mao, Sion, Cho, Ornn and Malphite is what I can come up with. Maybe Mundo if you're being generous about being able to go top.
That's about 10% of all toplane champions and while their play rate might be a bit above average, I still don't see all that many tanks up there.
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On January 26 2018 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 05:00 Numy wrote:
You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish. 1. It is a known issue that streamers that are just wrong find a lot of support for their views on Reddit, in large part because of their subscribers. 2. Confusing solo queue meta and pro play meta (as Hash frequently does) to make your point about what's OP is a criminal offense. Doing this deliberately (as Hash sometimes does) should be excommunicable. 3. Winrate statistics are a horribly abused disease, but even the most cursory glance at top lane solo queue winrates shows absolutely no sign of tank dominance. In fact, I see one tank in the top 10, and ~5 tanks in the bottom 10.
I may have written that weird but I didn't intentionally try confuse the two metas. Instead I looked at solo q meta for the past few weeks and just couldn't figure out where this tank dominance was. Then I went and looked at the pro meta thinking maybe it's there. After finding it no where I got even more confused. Should have posted thoughts in a bit more constructed way, I am sorry for that 
Winrates aren't the be all and end all. Play rates aren't particularly high for tanks in top lane either, outside of Ornn. So it's not like they just in every game. Matchup winrates between people like Fiora and the tanks are pretty dam good. So I'm just trying hard to find out why this sentiment is happening. The way people are talking is as if they are in every game being unbeatable. You'd think some of the data would correspond?
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On January 26 2018 06:08 Fildun wrote:
What is a tank?
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now? Mao, Sion, Cho, Ornn and Malphite is what I can come up with. Maybe Mundo if you're being generous about being able to go top.
That's about 10% of all toplane champions and while their play rate might be a bit above average, I still don't see all that many tanks up there.
I feel like champions like Gnar and Jax might cross into the tank category, but they can also build Phantom Dancer and Bloodthirster so maybe they're not the best fit.
You also have more 'pure' tanks from jungle like Sej/Nunu but that's not really relevant.
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On January 26 2018 03:55 Alaric wrote:The execute was supposed to give him a way to finish his opponent. Getting onto them with his mobility, then using the passive to stay there and evade skillshots and stuff with the MS, and since he didn't have as high a burst as other AP assassins, the additional damage on autos was a reward for sticking onto them and giving him the ability to actually finish the job without relying on E + Lichbane or something. Obviously they put too much move speed differential and too much damage on the kit anyway. I'm more annoyed by Riven than Ekko design-wise, personally.
I'd like the hear that, actually. I wish they'd rework her, myself.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 06:11 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 05:58 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 26 2018 05:00 Numy wrote:
You see I don't really understand how this whole "tanks are evil and ruining top lane" is happening right now when the game is in a state that tanks absolutely suck top lane. The only tanks that can hold their own top like are Ornn and Sion. Ornn has received enough nerfs now that he's sub par.
If this whole thing was happening last year when tanks were actually strong I could have maybe stomached it. Right now all the statistics and actual play go directly against the very first bunch of points. Fiora is actually in a very decent spot and beats up the very tanks that are good. Well Sion is a skill matchup mostly.
edit: If we look at pro play then it gets even worse. We don't see tanks top at all outside of two. Ornn(Again overtuned) and Cho counter picking Vlad. So where is this tank scourge killing top lane fun?
Snowballing point is something different I give you that. Question I would ask there is if top lane is snowballing less or if players are not good at snowballing from top lane? It's a hard to answer question. Is the lane worse because it's not win lane win game? Do we want the top lane to be win lane win game? I don't really think any of that is true. The game is better when top lane isn't about who has the Riven player popping off.
edit2: Lol Ornn has a 36% WR in top lane in LCK. If his points were that support tanks are crowding out any other kind of support then yes he would have a point. This whole "top lane tank boo hoo" shit is just rubbish. 1. It is a known issue that streamers that are just wrong find a lot of support for their views on Reddit, in large part because of their subscribers. 2. Confusing solo queue meta and pro play meta (as Hash frequently does) to make your point about what's OP is a criminal offense. Doing this deliberately (as Hash sometimes does) should be excommunicable. 3. Winrate statistics are a horribly abused disease, but even the most cursory glance at top lane solo queue winrates shows absolutely no sign of tank dominance. In fact, I see one tank in the top 10, and ~5 tanks in the bottom 10. I may have written that weird but I didn't intentionally try confuse the two metas. Instead I looked at solo q meta for the past few weeks and just couldn't figure out where this tank dominance was. Then I went and looked at the pro meta thinking maybe it's there. After finding it no where I got even more confused. Should have posted thoughts in a bit more constructed way, I am sorry for that Winrates aren't the be all and end all. Play rates aren't particularly high for tanks in top lane either, outside of Ornn. So it's not like they just in every game. Matchup winrates between people like Fiora and the tanks are pretty dam good. So I'm just trying hard to find out why this sentiment is happening. The way people are talking is as if they are in every game being unbeatable. You'd think some of the data would correspond?
No, I wasn't criticizing you. I was pointing out that you were trying to box with ghosts, because Hash confuses the two deliberately in order to make his point.
Hash isn't incentivized to be truthful. He's incentivized to say things that gets him publicity. Why people want to balance according to what he says is baffling to me.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 26 2018 06:08 Fildun wrote:
What is a tank?
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now? Mao, Sion, Cho, Ornn and Malphite is what I can come up with. Maybe Mundo if you're being generous about being able to go top.
That's about 10% of all toplane champions and while their play rate might be a bit above average, I still don't see all that many tanks up there.
By winrates in Diamond+ top lane:
#8 Sion
#24 Malphite
#29 Maokai
#31 Poppy
#38 Cho'Gath
#46 Shen
#47 Ornn
#48 Gragas
#50 Tahm Kench
#51 Nautilus
#53 Dr. Mundo
#55 Galio
#58 Nunu
#tankmeta
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They should make it still channel but not carry units in stasis
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Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it.
This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard.
As much as I might be memeing with this question, how many tanks can even go top right now?
That has less to do with tanks in general, and more to do with the fact that at any one time, only a few dozen champions are considered competitively viable. Look at ADC, the role rarely has more than 3 or 4 champions that see repeated play. Good news is you can still run most champs with moderate success in soloQ, people just always jump on the pro pick train and play what they see in LCS, instead of sticking with a champion for a few seasons.
You should only talk about soloQ win rates to support your argument, not construct your argument from those stats in itself. Udyr is sporting almost 55% winrate in Diamond, no one's saying he needs a nerf.
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With the changes to support items I think Zoe is a top tier support now. Maybe a little less in competitive where you might need you support to initiate and if you can get Zoe you probably want to get her mid resources, but cost benefit of her not being mid aside she’s really good bot now.
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Why are you guys jumping on a "tank op" meme train when it's not at all what it's about. lol
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Not sure what you meant because of the typo Gahlo, are you asking why I dislike Riven's design?
The bullshit damage is less of an issue (and I don't know how much the runes actually impacted that part) but overall the whole "long cooldowns but with a passive and the way her q works that makes her have little downtime and decent damage even if she mashes abilities or on the contrary whiffs several of them", the fact that her shield could for a long time serve as sustain to outlast a bunch of champions until they nerfed its duration, the fact the she actually has an AD-scaling shield, that she actually moves faster than a champion with boots when she spams her abilities (was more egregious before the changes to base MS obv.), etc.
I dislike how overall her design points to few weaknesses unless you make her very binary (since you can pretty much only tune cooldowns (and you need to make them absurdly long to punish but then it can punish super hard) and damage.
She can also get back pretty easily in the midgame thanks to her base damage +execute to just jump squishies, and big ratios keep her relevant even on low items.
On the other hand she's a lot easier to handle later in the game (assuming you have ranged hard cc) so she loses a lot in usefulness, unless you're good at animation cancelling... because then she can instantly 100-0 people regardless with little counterplay (in the sense that it depends much more on whether her player can execute well than your contingencies and positioning), which is less-than-ideal.
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On January 26 2018 08:22 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard.
Zoe is certainly unique because all the other hard pokers have been reworked, but Ornn is decidedly not unique.
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On January 26 2018 09:01 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 08:22 DarkCore wrote:Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard. Zoe is certainly unique because all the other hard pokers have been reworked, but Ornn is decidedly not unique.
He was before they nerfed him by removing being unstoppable when using W. :^)
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On January 26 2018 09:09 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 09:01 cLutZ wrote:On January 26 2018 08:22 DarkCore wrote:Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard. Zoe is certainly unique because all the other hard pokers have been reworked, but Ornn is decidedly not unique. He was before they nerfed him by removing being unstoppable when using W. :^)
Ehh. Maokai is untargetable during his W, Sion is unstoppable in his ult, Olaf's ult ignores CC, Sej becomes immune to slows, Alistar breaks CC, etc. Removing it removed some of his skill ceiling in certain matchups (like vs Irelia & Jax) but it didn't change the pokemon all that much. Either way he's a Bellsprout vs. Oddish.
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On January 26 2018 11:16 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2018 09:09 Jek wrote:On January 26 2018 09:01 cLutZ wrote:On January 26 2018 08:22 DarkCore wrote:Reworking Nunu is admitting the game is broken and cannot tolerate any kind of uniqueness. I sincerely hope they dont do it. This is exactly why Riot won't do anything about Zoe or Orrn for the next few years. They'll have their OP time for a few months, then get nerfed into oblivion. Or they'll become part of the long term meta, like Lee Sin and Orianna. Which would suck real hard. Zoe is certainly unique because all the other hard pokers have been reworked, but Ornn is decidedly not unique. He was before they nerfed him by removing being unstoppable when using W. :^) Ehh. Maokai is untargetable during his W, Sion is unstoppable in his ult, Olaf's ult ignores CC, Sej becomes immune to slows, Alistar breaks CC, etc. Removing it removed some of his skill ceiling in certain matchups (like vs Irelia & Jax) but it didn't change the pokemon all that much. Either way he's a Bellsprout vs. Oddish.
I agree, he's not exactly unique. But he does exhibit the exact properties that people choose tanks for, namely damage sponge, difficult to escape from, good initiation/follow up CC, and good base damage. Also decent laning phase against pretty much everyone top lane. Most tanks aren't particularly exciting champions and don't have much mechanical/putplay potential, they get picked because they are annoying to deal with. Maokai got nerfed quite hard for doing all of the above, so either Orrn is going to replace him or get hit hard by the nerf bat.
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Maybe we are not matching wavelengths but I don't see why Ornn was brought up in response to Nunu, who I think is very unique.
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I wish Nautilus wasn't complete ass.
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I've had his champ shard chilling. Want to give him a go but I know he's just too bad now to play. Do you guys think Swain will be a mid laner now instead of top?
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Oh they already nerfed Nunu
1/25/2018 Balance Update
We wanted Nunu something to do with his hands, but it turns out we gave him too much. Dialing that back so he can settle in a good place.
Q - Consume
ON-HIT DAMAGE 3/5/7/9/11 (+5 per 100 ability power) ⇒ 1/2/3/4/5 (+5 per 100 ability power)
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Damn, that's one fast nerf. Maybe Riot went with the 'Make his numbers high and then adjust accordingly' approach. That's always a good way to go about it, maybe I was too critical.
They haven't touched his W yet though, which is probably the bigger problem people have with him.
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On January 27 2018 00:59 DarkCore wrote:
Damn, that's one fast nerf. Maybe Riot went with the 'Make his numbers high and then adjust accordingly' approach. That's always a good way to go about it, maybe I was too critical.
They haven't touched his W yet though, which is probably the bigger problem people have with him.
The Q is what made him immediately good, and what still makes him a lot better. I'm not sure if W is broken exactly (unless you have like Azir/Kayle/etc) but in general being able to use it on mid and get value feels pretty good. I'm not always entirely sure on who I should use it in teamfights, but I guess the flexibility for it is good.
Nunu was already really good at running around wherever and punching people though, the Q change made it even more hilarious. I've been taking green smite because I was doing placements and didn't want to troll too hard, but playing with red smite would be fun.
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I played a game with a Kayle mid who wasn't doing very well and so just built ardent censer and helped our Jinx, thought it was pretty funny.
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen people running things other than Guardian on Nunu but I feel like the keystone is completely unskippable.
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On January 29 2018 23:53 Ansibled wrote:I played a game with a Kayle mid who wasn't doing very well and so just built ardent censer and helped our Jinx, thought it was pretty funny. + Show Spoiler +I've seen people running things other than Guardian on Nunu but I feel like the keystone is completely unskippable.
Aery makes blood boil apply ardent and athenes.
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On January 30 2018 03:32 DiracMonopole wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2018 23:53 Ansibled wrote:I played a game with a Kayle mid who wasn't doing very well and so just built ardent censer and helped our Jinx, thought it was pretty funny. + Show Spoiler +I've seen people running things other than Guardian on Nunu but I feel like the keystone is completely unskippable. Aery makes blood boil apply ardent and athenes.
That sounds utterly disgusting.
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The only consolation is that Nunu doesn't exactly buy Athene's in the jungle.
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On January 29 2018 23:53 Ansibled wrote:I played a game with a Kayle mid who wasn't doing very well and so just built ardent censer and helped our Jinx, thought it was pretty funny. + Show Spoiler +I've seen people running things other than Guardian on Nunu but I feel like the keystone is completely unskippable.
I think you mean Lethal Tempo is unskippable on Nunu.
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On January 30 2018 06:23 DarkCore wrote:
The only consolation is that Nunu doesn't exactly buy Athene's in the jungle.
Dat support nunu comeback doe.
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On January 30 2018 06:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2018 03:32 DiracMonopole wrote:On January 29 2018 23:53 Ansibled wrote:I played a game with a Kayle mid who wasn't doing very well and so just built ardent censer and helped our Jinx, thought it was pretty funny. + Show Spoiler +I've seen people running things other than Guardian on Nunu but I feel like the keystone is completely unskippable. Aery makes blood boil apply ardent and athenes. That sounds utterly disgusting.
It sounds terrible, lol.
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I prefer spellbook on nunu🤷🏼♂️
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On January 30 2018 08:48 Slusher wrote:
I prefer spellbook on nunu🤷🏼♂️
Spellbook all the things.
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That was my first thought too. Spellbook nunu sounds legit. Is guardian really worth it?
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On January 30 2018 08:48 Slusher wrote:
I prefer spellbook on nunu🤷🏼♂️
This is the only other keystone that sounds like it might be worth taking, but I've found that I run into a lot of situations where the shield is relevant in keeping people alive. I think it depends if you value being able to counterjungle more than his ability to play for team utility, and to me the latter part of his kit is stronger.
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Since I love to test silly stuff and I'm a dirty toplane tank Veigar player. Tank Zoe time it is!
A full build AP-Bruiser (gunblade, void, frozen heart, mercs, mask and any non-AP 10% cdr item) Zoe does 1600+ damage with melee range combo on the dummy with 100 MR. Lich Bane is a bit lower burst but I suppose for a tanky build the sustained damage would outperform Gunblade.
edit: This is without Gathering Storm or Eyeball Hunter stacks.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I miss the days when people didn't know about win rate websites.
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I don't really find much difference in most of the builds when it comes to success. However, comet and spellbook are the most fun, so imo all the other masteries should be removed.
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I think the domination tree needs work in general.
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The last runes in Domination are pretty lackluster, you either get mediocre sustain, out of combat MS (quite niche imo, also Cloud Drake covers that) and item CD, which is pretty useless. Also find the second row quite niche, either you get some extra poke for laning which falls off extremely quickly, quite poor sustain, or a really strong Lethality/MPen which not all champions can use. There are not a lot of champions that are able to fully exploit the entire tree.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 01 2018 04:53 JimmiC wrote:
It does for sure encourage the group think around builds. But I guess their is more opportunity for you to find a secret OP one of your own since no one will really copy it until you get enough success where it registers.
No, I'm more concerned about the impact it has on perceived balance, which I think we've established is just as important to Riot as actual balance. The Nunu stuff is a great example. This was a champion that was already quite strong pre-buffs, but had a misleadingly low winrate on websites because of all the trolls. Nunu had a >50% winrate if you built Cinderhulk, and yet everyone memed about how it was a non-viable gutter trash champion. So Riot went way overboard with the buffs, and wow, what do you know, he became way too strong.
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How can you be sure Nunu's winrate was significantly affected by trolling? Most of the playerbase doesn't even know the term "Disco Nunu".
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In the end, balancing is quite arbitrary. Riot does make sure stuff isn't absolutely Kassawin busted, but everything else is free reign. Maybe Riot will let Nunu be top dog for a few months, maybe they'll break his legs. Riot balances stuff for soloQ, makes life easier for high/low MMR, and pro play, all which need different balancing.
I don't really mind Nunu being decently strong, he's oppressive, but like 90% of the player base can't play him well.
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On February 01 2018 08:03 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2018 04:53 JimmiC wrote:
It does for sure encourage the group think around builds. But I guess their is more opportunity for you to find a secret OP one of your own since no one will really copy it until you get enough success where it registers. No, I'm more concerned about the impact it has on perceived balance, which I think we've established is just as important to Riot as actual balance. The Nunu stuff is a great example. This was a champion that was already quite strong pre-buffs, but had a misleadingly low winrate on websites because of all the trolls. Nunu had a >50% winrate if you built Cinderhulk, and yet everyone memed about how it was a non-viable gutter trash champion. So Riot went way overboard with the buffs, and wow, what do you know, he became way too strong.
Perception of balance is way more driven by LCS play and anecdotes than winrates. People just cite winrates when they back up their own anecdotes. This is not an unfounded strategy because winrates are generally useless in describing champion balance, rather they are indicative of what champions are good at executing the easiest effective strategy.
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On February 01 2018 09:09 JimmiC wrote:
I think anytime you say they shouldnt use this for this you should give an alternative. What do you think the criteria should be?
Well it really depends on what you care about. If you care only about soloQ, obviously champ winrates are very illustrative because they are an amalgamation of the meta + champ strength for that environment. If you are like me and just play champs you like anyways, maybe you complain if a champ you like is in the soloQ doldrums + seeing no pro play, like Olaf was for a while, or Eve.
The basic formula I'd use (if we got enough games for a good sample size) would be:
Ban % + Pick % x Winrate = Powerscore.
Ideally you would also do opponent adjustments that were dynamic over time and have a decaying mechanism that heavily discounted every time a new patch came out. That way the win by KZ over MVP's Zoe would be weighted less than if they had beaten KSV's Zoe, but also that Zoe's power score would have gotten a huge boost had MVP managed to pull out that game.
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On February 01 2018 14:37 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2018 09:09 JimmiC wrote:
I think anytime you say they shouldnt use this for this you should give an alternative. What do you think the criteria should be? Well it really depends on what you care about. If you care only about soloQ, obviously champ winrates are very illustrative because they are an amalgamation of the meta + champ strength for that environment. If you are like me and just play champs you like anyways, maybe you complain if a champ you like is in the soloQ doldrums + seeing no pro play, like Olaf was for a while, or Eve. The basic formula I'd use (if we got enough games for a good sample size) would be: Ban % + Pick % x Winrate = Powerscore. Ideally you would also do opponent adjustments that were dynamic over time and have a decaying mechanism that heavily discounted every time a new patch came out. That way the win by KZ over MVP's Zoe would be weighted less than if they had beaten KSV's Zoe, but also that Zoe's power score would have gotten a huge boost had MVP managed to pull out that game.
I assume you mean (B%+W%) * WR = PS or are you giving full weight to the bans?
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But what about winrate across MMR divisions, and pro play. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Riot used a powerscore somewhat similar to what you suggested, but different levels of play have quite different champion stats, if you take the average of those stats you'll get a pretty useless number. Even if you weight individual division stats, you'll end neglecting one group of players over others. In that regard, relatively arbitrary balancing seems like a good idea.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 01 2018 08:09 Sent. wrote:
How can you be sure Nunu's winrate was significantly affected by trolling? Most of the playerbase doesn't even know the term "Disco Nunu".
I can't find it on the Internet Archive, but a few weeks ago Nunu's overall winrate was 40%. But if you take Guardian and go jungle, that raised it to 53%. Even starting machete took it from 40% to 48%. As a practical matter if you're in Plat+ and not rushing Cinderhulk/building tank, then you're basically trolling. So it was a pretty stark example of how people playing a champion badly were artificially depressing the winrate below the champion's "true" power.
(Clarity Nunu had a 8% winrate. I want to know how that 8% managed to win despite their Nunu.)
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 02 2018 00:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2018 23:37 GrandInquisitor wrote:On February 01 2018 08:09 Sent. wrote:
How can you be sure Nunu's winrate was significantly affected by trolling? Most of the playerbase doesn't even know the term "Disco Nunu". I can't find it on the Internet Archive, but a few weeks ago Nunu's overall winrate was 40%. But if you take Guardian and go jungle, that raised it to 53%. Even starting machete took it from 40% to 48%. As a practical matter if you're in Plat+ and not rushing Cinderhulk/building tank, then you're basically trolling. So it was a pretty stark example of how people playing a champion badly were artificially depressing the winrate below the champion's "true" power. (Clarity Nunu had a 8% winrate. I want to know how that 8% managed to win despite their Nunu.) Show nested quote +On February 01 2018 04:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I miss the days when people didn't know about win rate websites.
I feel like you missed the point? People memed about Nunu having a 40% winrate and the narrative was that he was a shitty champion who lost games. When in reality, a cursory analysis of the evidence indicated that he was quite strong so long as you weren't trolling. Based (presumably in part) on this, Riot buffed an already strong champion who then unsurprisingly became way OP.
The problem is that if you make information widely accessible, it's not the second-level critical analysis of that information that propagates, it's the first-level gut reaction that sticks with people.
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Haven't Nunu ended up getting mid-patch nerfs whenever Riot have buffed him?
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On February 01 2018 17:16 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2018 14:37 cLutZ wrote:On February 01 2018 09:09 JimmiC wrote:
I think anytime you say they shouldnt use this for this you should give an alternative. What do you think the criteria should be? Well it really depends on what you care about. If you care only about soloQ, obviously champ winrates are very illustrative because they are an amalgamation of the meta + champ strength for that environment. If you are like me and just play champs you like anyways, maybe you complain if a champ you like is in the soloQ doldrums + seeing no pro play, like Olaf was for a while, or Eve. The basic formula I'd use (if we got enough games for a good sample size) would be: Ban % + Pick % x Winrate = Powerscore. Ideally you would also do opponent adjustments that were dynamic over time and have a decaying mechanism that heavily discounted every time a new patch came out. That way the win by KZ over MVP's Zoe would be weighted less than if they had beaten KSV's Zoe, but also that Zoe's power score would have gotten a huge boost had MVP managed to pull out that game. I assume you mean (B%+W%) * WR = PS or are you giving full weight to the bans?
No that wouldn't make sense to multiply bans by win %. There probably is an ideal way to discount bans but I can't think of it.
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nerf unsealed spellbook pls.
getting rid of the cd reduction on summs is probably enough. its stupid as fuck having like 8 unsealed spellbooks and 10 stopwatches in the game
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On February 02 2018 09:59 evilfatsh1t wrote:
nerf unsealed spellbook pls.
getting rid of the cd reduction on summs is probably enough. its stupid as fuck having like 8 unsealed spellbooks and 10 stopwatches in the game
PBE dropped spellbook CDR from 25% to 15%
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On February 02 2018 09:59 evilfatsh1t wrote:
nerf unsealed spellbook pls.
getting rid of the cd reduction on summs is probably enough. its stupid as fuck having like 8 unsealed spellbooks and 10 stopwatches in the game
I sort of like the games with a million spellbooks, it leads to so many fiestas when the teleports start raining in left right and center.
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Something will always be the best and spellbook is not oppressive
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I'd argue spellbook is how the game should just be with regards to summoners, and is one of the only new runes that is fun. Most of the old ones have the same problem as the old runes/masteries where they are just boosts that don't do things, so its not really a choice, its a standard selection. Only Spellbook, Comet, and arguably Fleet Footwork do interesting things, so why not eliminate all the other keystones and slot 1-3? Then just make up other keystones. You have the summoner, the speed, the goofy poke, then add one that gives you a shield based on something, or make stopwatch get a 2nd refresh from a mastery, etc.
Just eliminate all things that aren't really choices if you want choices. Otherwise you will never get Vaynes taking Grasp of the Undying, even if they want that skill, because the rest of the resolve tree is trash for vayne.
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Idk, TP supports seem fun and all, and make for interesting games, but it also creates an environment where something that should be an easy dive suddenly becomes quite risky if it's been telegraphed, despite said enemy support not being anywhere close to the dive.
Also when entire teams are spamming spellbook and stopwatch, something is wrong with that entire tree. Instead of nerfing both, they could try and weaken the other tiers of the tree to compensate.
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On February 02 2018 16:42 DarkCore wrote:
Idk, TP supports seem fun and all, and make for interesting games, but it also creates an environment where something that should be an easy dive suddenly becomes quite risky if it's been telegraphed, despite said enemy support not being anywhere close to the dive.
Also when entire teams are spamming spellbook and stopwatch, something is wrong with that entire tree. Instead of nerfing both, they could try and weaken the other tiers of the tree to compensate.
So you mean exactly like dota?
I'm not slamming you or anything. Just find it assuming how a dive being turned by people tping in is such a big thing in league yet I'm used to it just being the way you play in dota. Always wondered how League would change if they implemented TP scrolls. Maybe this is the experimental phase. I'm not sure if it's a bad thing that people have to be weary of tping in. Then again not sure if it'll add anything.
Do wonder how much the negative reaction is just due to people hating adapting to new things.
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Things change, people don't like change.
It's so sad watching people complain over and over about the stopwatch fiestas where there's a big teamfight and literally everyone gets into stasis one after the other. It adds an extra dimension to the game, you need to factor it in. I understand that you're not used to it, so you don't calculate for the last second 10 hp zhonyas, which would otherwise be a certain kill, but complaining about it is just juvenile. I love league of stopwatch.
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I’m ok with stopwatch. But I don’t love how it disadvantages champs who don’t want to build items that build out of stop watch. I feel like it should stay, but there should be stuff of equivalent power in other places for champs who want to do other things.
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It doesn't give you the shop built stopwatch, so reducing/removing the gold from selling it would be a way to do that.
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I hope they react to the JG ez skin by tuning him to be able to jungle again. They moved all the champs power into the klepto interaction and now he is lackluster without it and so very weak in jungle.
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On February 02 2018 22:05 General_Winter wrote:
I hope they react to the JG ez skin by tuning him to be able to jungle again. They moved all the champs power into the klepto interaction and now he is lackluster without it and so very weak in jungle.
No, if they make him into a viable jungler they'll kill him as ADC 
I hope kelpto gets killed enough that we end up with glacial augment Ezreal's every game because it's really fun.
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As I think about it, I actually like the idea of giving everyone spellbooks forever. The old summoner spell system is really stale IMO, and spellbook gives people more decisions to manage and react with, in the game itself, rather than just leaving you 2 non-decisions that you make under no pressure before the game starts.
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I honestly think the only way spellbook will be in a good place as a rune is if teleport is removed from the game.
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On February 02 2018 22:08 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 22:05 General_Winter wrote:
I hope they react to the JG ez skin by tuning him to be able to jungle again. They moved all the champs power into the klepto interaction and now he is lackluster without it and so very weak in jungle. No, if they make him into a viable jungler they'll kill him as ADC I hope kelpto gets killed enough that we end up with glacial augment Ezreal's every game because it's really fun.
I don’t think it has to be that way. There were several patches at the end of last season where he was viable as JG and ADC.
And at the start of this season before people converged on the Kleptomancy rune page he was viable in both roles. It was only after klepto where in order to weaken klepto ez without touching the real problem they took away his attack speed and q damage that jg ez was gutted.
I think they could co exist without klepto though.
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The changes to Ez and Aftershock changed the level one trade for shen/ez in an extreme way, lvl 1 taunt on the adc went from death to like 50% hp
Learned that one the hard way day1 of the patch lol
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Are they going to be Samsung [Ezreal] or KSV [Ezreal]? I assume Samsung but I'm curious. Not that it matters though
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https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/Zuwx8vlW-quick-gameplay-thoughts-february-2
LeBlanc
After Rengar ships in 8.4 we'll be looking at LeBlanc. Current plan is for a similar level of change to Rengar's, likely including some degree of moving back to things about old LeBlanc that worked well (both for LeBlanc players and for game health). Not certain on timing of when that work would ship, goal would be to get it onto PBE fairly quickly and, as with Rengar, work on it for multiple patches while getting feedback on it.
Revert Leblanc this current abomination should never have hit live.
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My op.gg for some reason isn't showing a season 8 tab. Any other sites that are good for personal stats? Just wanted to see how many games with what champs etc. in this season specifically.
edit: I pressed the big green update button and it worked. I'm a moron. Move on.
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while we're reverting can we take a look at Fizz ult 👀
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On February 02 2018 19:48 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2018 16:42 DarkCore wrote:
Idk, TP supports seem fun and all, and make for interesting games, but it also creates an environment where something that should be an easy dive suddenly becomes quite risky if it's been telegraphed, despite said enemy support not being anywhere close to the dive.
Also when entire teams are spamming spellbook and stopwatch, something is wrong with that entire tree. Instead of nerfing both, they could try and weaken the other tiers of the tree to compensate. So you mean exactly like dota? I'm not slamming you or anything. Just find it assuming how a dive being turned by people tping in is such a big thing in league yet I'm used to it just being the way you play in dota. Always wondered how League would change if they implemented TP scrolls. Maybe this is the experimental phase. I'm not sure if it's a bad thing that people have to be weary of tping in. Then again not sure if it'll add anything. Do wonder how much the negative reaction is just due to people hating adapting to new things.
On February 02 2018 23:18 Ansibled wrote:
I honestly think the only way spellbook will be in a good place as a rune is if teleport is removed from the game.
Really interesting to see the different takes on TP, haha. I myself don't know much about Dota, I tried it out a few times (think I have 16 hours with bots logged), and it just doesn't fill my cravings of being a brain dead mechanical ADC orb walking everything coming at me. It's a game oriented towards brain more than brawn, at least the impression I got.
I just feel like TP on everyone doesn't suit the game because we've been moving more from individual play making to team coordination every season. Some of it was inevitable as the scene matured and teams got proper coaching staff, but Riot has been heavily enforcing it as well, nerfing high snowball champions, removing items like DFG, normalizing jungle exp, no more solo barons and some other things I can't remember. TP scrolls probably work out nicely in Dota, but in League they tend to make for more boring games, because either it means you can safely back without losing out on cs, or you can pressure another part of the map despite farming another lane. TP scrolls cost gold, no? Maybe they should change TP to a consumable, with a long CD between each usage, and expensive enough to not be able to spam it.
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United States37500 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/966f81eea034595ae669482998dd98f1.png)
