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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
A full build AP-Bruiser (gunblade, void, frozen heart, mercs, mask and any non-AP 10% cdr item) Zoe does 1600+ damage with melee range combo on the dummy with 100 MR. Lich Bane is a bit lower burst but I suppose for a tanky build the sustained damage would outperform Gunblade. edit: This is without Gathering Storm or Eyeball Hunter stacks. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 01 2018 04:53 JimmiC wrote: It does for sure encourage the group think around builds. But I guess their is more opportunity for you to find a secret OP one of your own since no one will really copy it until you get enough success where it registers. No, I'm more concerned about the impact it has on perceived balance, which I think we've established is just as important to Riot as actual balance. The Nunu stuff is a great example. This was a champion that was already quite strong pre-buffs, but had a misleadingly low winrate on websites because of all the trolls. Nunu had a >50% winrate if you built Cinderhulk, and yet everyone memed about how it was a non-viable gutter trash champion. So Riot went way overboard with the buffs, and wow, what do you know, he became way too strong. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9266 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
I don't really mind Nunu being decently strong, he's oppressive, but like 90% of the player base can't play him well. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 01 2018 08:03 GrandInquisitor wrote: No, I'm more concerned about the impact it has on perceived balance, which I think we've established is just as important to Riot as actual balance. The Nunu stuff is a great example. This was a champion that was already quite strong pre-buffs, but had a misleadingly low winrate on websites because of all the trolls. Nunu had a >50% winrate if you built Cinderhulk, and yet everyone memed about how it was a non-viable gutter trash champion. So Riot went way overboard with the buffs, and wow, what do you know, he became way too strong. Perception of balance is way more driven by LCS play and anecdotes than winrates. People just cite winrates when they back up their own anecdotes. This is not an unfounded strategy because winrates are generally useless in describing champion balance, rather they are indicative of what champions are good at executing the easiest effective strategy. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 01 2018 09:09 JimmiC wrote: I think anytime you say they shouldnt use this for this you should give an alternative. What do you think the criteria should be? Well it really depends on what you care about. If you care only about soloQ, obviously champ winrates are very illustrative because they are an amalgamation of the meta + champ strength for that environment. If you are like me and just play champs you like anyways, maybe you complain if a champ you like is in the soloQ doldrums + seeing no pro play, like Olaf was for a while, or Eve. The basic formula I'd use (if we got enough games for a good sample size) would be: Ban % + Pick % x Winrate = Powerscore. Ideally you would also do opponent adjustments that were dynamic over time and have a decaying mechanism that heavily discounted every time a new patch came out. That way the win by KZ over MVP's Zoe would be weighted less than if they had beaten KSV's Zoe, but also that Zoe's power score would have gotten a huge boost had MVP managed to pull out that game. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35165 Posts
On February 01 2018 14:37 cLutZ wrote: Well it really depends on what you care about. If you care only about soloQ, obviously champ winrates are very illustrative because they are an amalgamation of the meta + champ strength for that environment. If you are like me and just play champs you like anyways, maybe you complain if a champ you like is in the soloQ doldrums + seeing no pro play, like Olaf was for a while, or Eve. The basic formula I'd use (if we got enough games for a good sample size) would be: Ban % + Pick % x Winrate = Powerscore. Ideally you would also do opponent adjustments that were dynamic over time and have a decaying mechanism that heavily discounted every time a new patch came out. That way the win by KZ over MVP's Zoe would be weighted less than if they had beaten KSV's Zoe, but also that Zoe's power score would have gotten a huge boost had MVP managed to pull out that game. I assume you mean (B%+W%) * WR = PS or are you giving full weight to the bans? | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 01 2018 08:09 Sent. wrote: How can you be sure Nunu's winrate was significantly affected by trolling? Most of the playerbase doesn't even know the term "Disco Nunu". I can't find it on the Internet Archive, but a few weeks ago Nunu's overall winrate was 40%. But if you take Guardian and go jungle, that raised it to 53%. Even starting machete took it from 40% to 48%. As a practical matter if you're in Plat+ and not rushing Cinderhulk/building tank, then you're basically trolling. So it was a pretty stark example of how people playing a champion badly were artificially depressing the winrate below the champion's "true" power. (Clarity Nunu had a 8% winrate. I want to know how that 8% managed to win despite their Nunu.) | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I feel like you missed the point? People memed about Nunu having a 40% winrate and the narrative was that he was a shitty champion who lost games. When in reality, a cursory analysis of the evidence indicated that he was quite strong so long as you weren't trolling. Based (presumably in part) on this, Riot buffed an already strong champion who then unsurprisingly became way OP. The problem is that if you make information widely accessible, it's not the second-level critical analysis of that information that propagates, it's the first-level gut reaction that sticks with people. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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