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On January 04 2017 09:07 iCanada wrote:
I could bring wrong, but mages aren't that string right now are they? Aside from a few outliers (lb is kind of silly atm)
I think the early level tower buffs could perhaps be removed mid and top. That would make bottom feel less.... gangbangy.
I dunno, I'm not an adc player but my perspective is bot feels bad because of a few standout champs and because bottom is the go to place on the map while not bottom laners are in their weakest phase of play.
Maybe riot should make top the weakest early tower? There is more roaming mid and ganking from jungle and that's why adc players feel like shit right now. More ganks and they are the go to spot to be ganked because the reward not is astronomically higher than top. You feed / deny more champs, you get tower easier, and there is dragon.
The reason bot feels bad is because there's way too much sustain from Warlords. Meh. Personally I dont mind the gangbangy nature in the current situation having earlier teamfights, chaos and mayhem is way more fun than laning for 50 minutes.
Isn't ADCs complaint more that they die before they can do much of anything? My biggest issue is that tanks honestly do way too much damage for how tanky they are (ahem CotC).
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You're a support player, you don't need items to be useful in gangbang fights.
ADC's in 5 mans before the first item feel completely useless though. They are getting in all these fights that stops them from farming and they are useless in these fights that are deciding the games that are starting as early as like 6 minutes.
And yeah, CotC is dumb.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 04 2017 09:13 kongoline wrote:
on a side note reddit is going full retard past couple days
To be fair, has there ever been a season since season 2 where ADCs didn't bitch more than every other role combined?
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On January 04 2017 13:31 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 09:13 kongoline wrote:
on a side note reddit is going full retard past couple days To be fair, has there ever been a season since season 2 where ADCs didn't bitch more than every other role combined?
Has there ever been a time when ADC's got actual improvements to their itemization other than "You loved vanilla, here's vanilla bean!" while everybody else gets new toys year after year?
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name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
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On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote:
name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
Here we go...
Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot.
All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
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Lets be clear, even with that, we have a clear downgrade in ADC power because Riot still does not correctly value the Burst>Sustained damage paradigm.
S2 ADCs were slightly OP, since then the "OP" problem with specific ADCs has, generally, been caused by things other than autoattacks. Examples are Corki Q/R in S3, EZ Dashes, Blue EZ, Lucian at release, Lucian with infinite dash rework, Kalista stupid dash passive, Sivir Team Buff, Jihn 2000 range damage+cc, Ashe CC, etc.
Standard attack damage (including ranged, but also autos all around) has always been fine or undertuned, the problem is people not realizing that its actually very skillful in Lol (even without turning) to land many autoattacks, and abilities are actually the realm of noobs.
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To me, the issues or the awkwardness of the adc role is that this is the only mandatory role, since, the beginning of lol (or almost). Actually, not the role, but the type of champs - ranged ad champs. All other roles/champs can vary a lot: initiating tanks, peeling tanks, stun bots, damage fighters, tanky fighters, mobility fighters, melee assassins, range assassins, utility mages, damage mages, control mages, assassin mages and many more, but the adcs, they all do/build essentially almost the same thing and are the only class that is always in every single game.
So, this should either change or Riot should treat them specially and the game should be balanced around them officially
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there was also s6 unkillable steraks,maw adc's meta
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I'd love to see an "ADC Hourglass", the active locked behind you having to be ranged like Deadmans damage part is locked behind being melee.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 04 2017 15:08 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote:
name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items. Here we go... Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot. All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense.
You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal.
But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked.
There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc.
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Why couldn't summoner spells be different based on range/melee?
Like, if it's 425 for melee's, make it 400 or less for ranged. Or make it higher for melee and 425 for ranged. Or have it on higher cooldown if you're ranged..
ADCs are kind of fucked right now, I do agree here, but why is that the case? Why are they so weak when they used to not be? Is it all because of CotC? Is it because of subsequent fervor nerfs? Is it because starting items are too weak for ADCs?
Edit: I don't really mind for ADCs being pretty useless though at the start of the game, they've always started to become relevant only after the 1st completed item for some (Corki, with pen boots) up until 4 items for others (Cait).
Most need 2 items for a decent powerspike atm (IE + Runaan's for cookiecutter ADCs) while they only get stronger from there on relatively to the other laners. If you aren't able to farm up and get those necessary items as the lead aa carry, you don't really deserve to win, as you're just doing your own team a disservice. Playing ADCs is playing like the bitch for the entire game and when you get big enough you just take over. Unless you just outclass everyone on the playing field ofcourse, then you just take over ASAP.
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Maybe making their full items have more parts/steps could be a way to help their early game? BF+Cloak could be a pseudo IE and such.
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Honestly I think it's just a symptom of early season mmr shuffle making the average game decided before adc comes online. Late game adc is def still good. If they buff the early game adc s like Draven/ Lucian/mf so adc players have the option to play for the early game it could be a reasonable solution.
Also when LCs starts back up and the random reddit posters who don't actually play the game can watch teams playing around the adc instead of qt and sneaky getting dove 24/7 a lot of the hubbub will die down
But hopefully we get both
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On January 05 2017 00:40 Jek wrote:
Maybe making their full items have more parts/steps could be a way to help their early game? BF+Cloak could be a pseudo IE and such.
Dota added something like this last year with blight stone an early game (very) mini version of desolater, that eventually is part of the deso recipe. I think most dota players consider it a good change
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On January 04 2017 23:50 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote:
name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items. Here we go... Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot. All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners. Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense. You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal. But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked. There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc.
Reworked BT is bad. Maw hasn't been for ADC for a long time. Ghostblade/Cleaver/Duskblade was a very limited use thing for items that Riot didn't want them to have anyway, and LW upgrades aren't ADC exclusive.
So if we look over the "ADC list", most are either not ADC specific or were never intended for ADC usage anyway.
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I guess we should just all erase ekko from our memories guys since 90% of his pro play was unintended
XD
dev intention is irrelevant
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I think that adc is by nature a restricted role because it's completely built around auto attacks which are the only damaging "ability" that is basically the same across every champion in the game (except stuff like graves, jhin, and azir). You can only have so much variation when your champion's primary job is to point and click things until they die. I think this is more fundamental than things like the item design.
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Half the (viable) champs have gotten more versatile as well, I feel, compared to when i started playing. The 'standard' auto-attacking marksmen suffer under that trend.
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as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play
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EPT
