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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote:
^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me.
Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work.
Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less?
It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
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DoA and Monte were good casters 2 years ago, but I think the quality of their casting has gone down a lot since then although I guess some of it can be blamed on format changes.
OGN Apex numbers for the English broadcast were pretty bad, but I guess Blizzard will keep trying to push Overwatch this year. https://overwatch.fuzic.nl/streams/ognglobal/
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On January 11 2017 01:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote:
^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me. Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work. Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less? It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
To be fair, the MLB didn't try to get commentators for the World Series and pay them like ass. Nor did those commentators own a team that they were forced to sell for (valid or invalid) reasons. Has Monte's interaction with Riot over the last year been ugly? Yeah, but given comparisons, I believe the situations he's been put in are unprecedented.
I'd rather play the Korean stream on SPOTV days than give an LS stream a viewer, even if it's on mute.
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On January 11 2017 01:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote:
^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me. Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work. Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less? It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
I agree with this for sure, but I think its related to how much money real broadcasters make and their lack of reddit engagement. A lot of the younger ones put people on blast on Twitter (but usually other broadcasters or radio commentators instead of one fan). I think Monte is a bitter man who's time in lol is probably due (also probably not the best reports manager out there), but its sad to see this last stone turn. Also its sad because Korean Lol is now a must-mute for me, along with CN-Lol and like 60% of LCS casts.
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On the plus side, there's a rumor that Deman will be casting OGN on reddit. So there could be that.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 11 2017 01:41 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 01:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote:
^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me. Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work. Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less? It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute. To be fair, the MLB didn't try to get commentators for the World Series and pay them like ass. Nor did those commentators own a team that they were forced to sell for (valid or invalid) reasons. Has Monte's interaction with Riot over the last year been ugly? Yeah, but given comparisons, I believe the situations he's been put in are unprecedented.
It's interesting you say "situations he's been put in" whereas I think of those situations as things he's brought on himself. Nobody made him co-own a team with the shadiest man in LCS history, a guy who straight up lied about being a lawyer. Nobody then made him mislead and/or deceive Riot about his team's ownership situation. Caster salaries is the only thing that you could argue was thrust upon him as opposed to something he started, but even there no one else thought they were underpaid, and no one else apparently demanded more money except for him. And man, let me tell you, it is not a good look to be the only one demanding a raise from your boss while simultaneously trashing them and insinuating that they broke the law.
I'd rather play the Korean stream on SPOTV days than give an LS stream a viewer, even if it's on mute.
Glad that there are things everyone can agree on.
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Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
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On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote:
Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
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On January 11 2017 03:12 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote:
Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet.
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they need to make a modern game similar to Sony's infantry game. Probably the only war/shooting game i've ever enjoyed. Isometric seemed to work really well for a war/shooting game. First person is just meh
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quake was great to spectate its mostly team fps games which are hard to follow
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 11 2017 03:20 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote:
Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective. I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet.
Overwatch cannot be done as a spectator esport. There are innumerable reasons why. These are the first five I thought of off the top of my head but I'm sure smarter people can come up with more:
1. The pace of the game is remarkably fast even for a FPS. It is way twitchier than CS:GO. This is especially true for melee champions. Good luck spectating a first person Genji and comprehending anything - this isn't because of lack of game knowledge, it's that a spectator has absolutely no chance of being able to develop a macro view of where everyone is at the speed at which Overwatch plays, unless you literally lock yourself to a single person for the entire game.
2. There are too many things to track. In TF2, the only big picture game knowledge was each Medic's Uber %age. That number exists for every player in Overwatch in the form of their ult meter. To be sure, it makes playing the game more fun, but it makes spectating the game even harder because now you're essentially tracking 12 Ubercharges instead of 2. Even if you could track them all, it hurts the pacing of the game. In TF2, the rhythm of the game is decided by the relative Uber timings. That rhythm is impossibly more complex in Overwatch.
3. The levels are designed to make third-person spectating even worse. Compare something like cp_badlands and cp_granary, where a third-person view often shows you the entire battlefield, to Nepal and Lijiang Tower, where a third-person view shows you almost nothing beyond the walls.
4. There are too many people and not enough clearly-defined roles. League has five players, each with sharply-defined clear roles, and you get to watch 1v1 and 2v2 duels for the first part of the game to build up to the grand finale teamfights. You have storylines coming into those fights - Blue's mid is ahead but Red's ADC is about to take off. And even then in a chaotic teamfight it's often hard to follow what's going on. Watching Overwatch is like watching only the clusterfuck teamfights of League over and over and over again, without any clearly defined roles for any player like in League.
5. There is no clear winning/losing team. The cart is pushed to X at 2:00. Is that good or bad?
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Trying to set my bias aside I think the problem with overwatch vs counter strike is all of the noisiest elements on screen in CS are friendly fire. I.e. It doesn't actually matter that much who's smoking. When 2 Zaria mei adults are on screen (which unfortunately at the time of apex group stage was the meta to respond ult for ult) it just becomes a shit show.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 11 2017 04:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 03:20 cLutZ wrote:On January 11 2017 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote:
Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective. I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet. Overwatch cannot be done as a spectator esport. There are innumerable reasons why. These are the first five I thought of off the top of my head but I'm sure smarter people can come up with more: 1. The pace of the game is remarkably fast even for a FPS. It is way twitchier than CS:GO. This is especially true for melee champions. Good luck spectating a first person Genji and comprehending anything - this isn't because of lack of game knowledge, it's that a spectator has absolutely no chance of being able to develop a macro view of where everyone is at the speed at which Overwatch plays, unless you literally lock yourself to a single person for the entire game. 2. There are too many things to track. In TF2, the only big picture game knowledge was each Medic's Uber %age. That number exists for every player in Overwatch in the form of their ult meter. To be sure, it makes playing the game more fun, but it makes spectating the game even harder because now you're essentially tracking 12 Ubercharges instead of 2. Even if you could track them all, it hurts the pacing of the game. In TF2, the rhythm of the game is decided by the relative Uber timings. That rhythm is impossibly more complex in Overwatch. 3. The levels are designed to make third-person spectating even worse. Compare something like cp_badlands and cp_granary, where a third-person view often shows you the entire battlefield, to Nepal and Lijiang Tower, where a third-person view shows you almost nothing beyond the walls. 4. There are too many people and not enough clearly-defined roles. League has five players, each with sharply-defined clear roles, and you get to watch 1v1 and 2v2 duels for the first part of the game to build up to the grand finale teamfights. You have storylines coming into those fights - Blue's mid is ahead but Red's ADC is about to take off. And even then in a chaotic teamfight it's often hard to follow what's going on. Watching Overwatch is like watching only the clusterfuck teamfights of League over and over and over again, without any clearly defined roles for any player like in League. 5. There is no clear winning/losing team. The cart is pushed to X at 2:00. Is that good or bad?
This was a good read for someone with little to no FPS background. Now why is CS good (in terms of viewership) compared to OW? General question out there. I tried asking this on discord earlier today but didn't get much.
I tried to watch an Apex Highlight reel today and it seemed ok for the most part. Very shiny with lots of bright lights but I chalk it off to me not knowing much about the game. People said League looked like fireworks a few years ago and I suppose if you don't know much about League and what each champion does, then yeah, it's just color works.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 11 2017 04:28 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2017 04:13 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 11 2017 03:20 cLutZ wrote:On January 11 2017 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote:
Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective. I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet. Overwatch cannot be done as a spectator esport. There are innumerable reasons why. These are the first five I thought of off the top of my head but I'm sure smarter people can come up with more: 1. The pace of the game is remarkably fast even for a FPS. It is way twitchier than CS:GO. This is especially true for melee champions. Good luck spectating a first person Genji and comprehending anything - this isn't because of lack of game knowledge, it's that a spectator has absolutely no chance of being able to develop a macro view of where everyone is at the speed at which Overwatch plays, unless you literally lock yourself to a single person for the entire game. 2. There are too many things to track. In TF2, the only big picture game knowledge was each Medic's Uber %age. That number exists for every player in Overwatch in the form of their ult meter. To be sure, it makes playing the game more fun, but it makes spectating the game even harder because now you're essentially tracking 12 Ubercharges instead of 2. Even if you could track them all, it hurts the pacing of the game. In TF2, the rhythm of the game is decided by the relative Uber timings. That rhythm is impossibly more complex in Overwatch. 3. The levels are designed to make third-person spectating even worse. Compare something like cp_badlands and cp_granary, where a third-person view often shows you the entire battlefield, to Nepal and Lijiang Tower, where a third-person view shows you almost nothing beyond the walls. 4. There are too many people and not enough clearly-defined roles. League has five players, each with sharply-defined clear roles, and you get to watch 1v1 and 2v2 duels for the first part of the game to build up to the grand finale teamfights. You have storylines coming into those fights - Blue's mid is ahead but Red's ADC is about to take off. And even then in a chaotic teamfight it's often hard to follow what's going on. Watching Overwatch is like watching only the clusterfuck teamfights of League over and over and over again, without any clearly defined roles for any player like in League. 5. There is no clear winning/losing team. The cart is pushed to X at 2:00. Is that good or bad? This was a good read for someone with little to no FPS background. Now why is CS good (in terms of viewership) compared to OW? General question out there. I tried asking this on discord earlier today but didn't get much.
I don't play CS:GO much so I honestly don't know, but I'll hazard some guesses:
1) crate farmers, 2) slower pace, 3) dedicated community with higher conversion % to esports, 4) very tactical so FP view is better, 5) a long history of esports competition, 6) fewer full-on teamfights and more skirmishing, 7) fewer emphasis on "ults" means greater mechanical outplay potential.
I tried to watch an Apex Highlight reel today and it seemed ok for the most part. Very shiny with lots of bright lights but I chalk it off to me not knowing much about the game. People said League looked like fireworks a few years ago and I suppose if you don't know much about League and what each champion does, then yeah, it's just color works.
Difference is that in League you can see the entire teamfight. You can't in OW. I know what every ability in OW is, what it looks like, what it sounds like, but in a big teamfight I have no idea what is going on because you need to construct a mental map of where everyone is positioned. That comes easily when you are playing the game, but not if you just switched to that guy's POV a second ago.
EDIT: One other thing I thought of. Character balance is fucking hard in OW. Think about how hard it is in League to balance Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, and Yasuo for pro play and Bronze IV. Now restrict yourself to only a dozen characters, so any character imbalance is tremendously amplified. You can live with Lee Sin having a 40% winrate in Bronze because those players can play anybody they want. You can't do that with Genji because that's basically eliminating an entire playstyle from the game.
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United States37500 Posts
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EPT
