Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
my ranked 5's team is looking for a new support looking for someone between plat 5-d4 we practice most week days around 8 est we have a few subs that fill in for when ppl cant make it if anyones interested send me a pm we will be trying a couple guys out this week
So when do hextech chests wipe, aren't you supposed to be able to get 1 per year per champ? do you think it will be now for season start or closer to mastery anniversary?
On December 07 2016 11:37 dsyxelic wrote: meh patch
dunno what that kat buff is. red/blue buffs seem pretty weak now
i still think syndra needs a nerf but i guess riot doesnt think so
I read somewhere that they have syndra under the radar for some time, but will wait to see how the rylai change affect her and then consider nerfs. They wanted to avoid the well known scenario nerfing core item(s) and the champ simultaneously, resulting in overnerfing
On December 07 2016 11:37 dsyxelic wrote: meh patch
dunno what that kat buff is. red/blue buffs seem pretty weak now
i still think syndra needs a nerf but i guess riot doesnt think so
I read somewhere that they have syndra under the radar for some time, but will wait to see how the rylai change affect her and then consider nerfs. They wanted to avoid the well known scenario nerfing core item(s) and the champ simultaneously, resulting in overnerfing
I understand the logic there but I think there are other champs who are far more reliant on rylai's and are weaker than syndra
(ex. viktor, malz) rylai's was good on syndra but it was more the item being broken than her being an exceptional user of it. it's built maybe half the time on syndra
if syndra becomes weak enough to avoid the nerfs because of rylais they should definitely buff a bunch of the other champs. or we can have them all out of the meta idc im not a mid main :D just don't want miss all spells but press r to 1 shot syndra
i think syndra is fine on 5s, there are much worse mids to face like velkoz/malz/brand that just shred through everything, syndra doesn't do so well against bruisers.
On December 07 2016 23:46 VayneAuthority wrote: i think syndra is fine on 5s, there are much worse mids to face like velkoz/malz/brand that just shred through everything, syndra doesn't do so well against bruisers.
Syndra is broken in 3s though
velkoz def seems strong right now but haven't seen much malz/brand mid in 5s.
lots of things are broken in 3s :/ malz/brand are stronger on that map than 5s. brand pretty much perm ban.
just look at winrates. All the true damage/bruiser counter mages flood it. Ahri, velkoz, brand, malz, etc.
CoC got a small nerf but not enough to change the current meta. I think one more CoC nerf and some redemption/support nerfs and some plant changes and maybe the game will be playable again
On December 07 2016 11:37 dsyxelic wrote: meh patch
dunno what that kat buff is. red/blue buffs seem pretty weak now
i still think syndra needs a nerf but i guess riot doesnt think so
I read somewhere that they have syndra under the radar for some time, but will wait to see how the rylai change affect her and then consider nerfs. They wanted to avoid the well known scenario nerfing core item(s) and the champ simultaneously, resulting in overnerfing
they just fucked kog pretty hard in this patch doing exactly that though
On December 07 2016 11:37 dsyxelic wrote: meh patch
dunno what that kat buff is. red/blue buffs seem pretty weak now
i still think syndra needs a nerf but i guess riot doesnt think so
I read somewhere that they have syndra under the radar for some time, but will wait to see how the rylai change affect her and then consider nerfs. They wanted to avoid the well known scenario nerfing core item(s) and the champ simultaneously, resulting in overnerfing
they just fucked kog pretty hard in this patch doing exactly that though
For some reason riot really hates ap kog even though they really should forget him as an adc and balence him around going mid
On December 07 2016 11:37 dsyxelic wrote: meh patch
dunno what that kat buff is. red/blue buffs seem pretty weak now
i still think syndra needs a nerf but i guess riot doesnt think so
I read somewhere that they have syndra under the radar for some time, but will wait to see how the rylai change affect her and then consider nerfs. They wanted to avoid the well known scenario nerfing core item(s) and the champ simultaneously, resulting in overnerfing
they just fucked kog pretty hard in this patch doing exactly that though
For some reason riot really hates ap kog even though they really should forget him as an adc and balence him around going mid
I mean, if Ziggs meta was cancer, AP Kog is like quadruple Ebola with Prion disease. Playing against an AP Kog that's ahead with his 1800-unit unblockable Rylai's-proccing poke and waveclear on a 1s cooldown is unbearable. You can't even flank that shit because he's so long-ranged. It's a horrible champion design and if he was actually released as a modern mid AP champion you'd never hear the end of it.
On December 07 2016 17:10 Slusher wrote: So when do hextech chests wipe, aren't you supposed to be able to get 1 per year per champ? do you think it will be now for season start or closer to mastery anniversary?
just got chest for champion i mained last season so its reset now
I was at the point where I would have to play something random if I wanted to keep them on cd, although I am ahead on chests ATM. Shout outs to the lvl 3 gank patch for letting me get an s on heros i suck at.
To people upset by a lack of Syndra nerfs, this just hit the PBE:
Syndra
Transcendent (Passive): Force of Will (W) additional effect at max rank changed to "Deals 20% bonus true damage." from"Grabs 2 additional spheres near the target."
Force of Will (W) AP ratio lowered to 70% from 80% Damage lowered to 70/110/150/190/230 from 80/120/160/200/240
Unleashed Power (R) Cooldown increased to 120/100/80 from 100/90/80
On December 08 2016 06:53 Slusher wrote: I was at the point where I would have to play something random if I wanted to keep them on cd, although I am ahead on chests ATM. Shout outs to the lvl 3 gank patch for letting me get an s on heros i suck at.
Pshh. You just need to never play and stay a league or more below your real elo. Them S's free unless you trying to win on pantheon.
Although if you're in an elo for a full season maybe that is your real elo. How many games till theoretical convergence? I only played 165 games of ranked S6 @ 60% winrate.
On December 08 2016 09:01 Gahlo wrote: To people upset by a lack of Syndra nerfs, this just hit the PBE:
Syndra
Transcendent (Passive): Force of Will (W) additional effect at max rank changed to "Deals 20% bonus true damage." from"Grabs 2 additional spheres near the target."
Force of Will (W) AP ratio lowered to 70% from 80% Damage lowered to 70/110/150/190/230 from 80/120/160/200/240
Unleashed Power (R) Cooldown increased to 120/100/80 from 100/90/80
Did they really just replace the bonus Ultimate magic damage to true damage on the W?
On December 09 2016 00:52 kongoline wrote: just had velkoz do to me 1.9k true dmg with one spell rotation wtf is this
If he has proced his passive on you his ultimate does 100% true damage. A full rotation procs his passive 3 times. If farmed he can basically oneshot anything.
thank god but i feel all this mess is because of new masteries tld and greenfathers gift, same happened with mages and riot is trying to reduce ap on items/ blue buff to reduce the burst everyone gets for free from TLD
thank god but i feel all this mess is because of new masteries tld and greenfathers gift, same happened with mages and riot is trying to reduce ap on items/ blue buff to reduce the burst everyone gets for free from TLD
I'd just prefer they cut the scaling on his ult to reducing base damage. base damage targets tanky team based builds while scaling targets the solo queue lee heroes.
On December 09 2016 11:18 Jek wrote: I dont understand why they dont buff the other junglers up to par with Lee instead of nerfing him, he seems like the perfect baseline jungler.
Because that would only make too much sense and allow jungle to be a strong position. Whenever jungle is strong, every non jungler complains.
On December 09 2016 11:18 Jek wrote: I dont understand why they dont buff the other junglers up to par with Lee instead of nerfing him, he seems like the perfect baseline jungler.
Its because they dont want junglers to be good. Thats why.
Look at all the changes this offseason. They want Jungle to be position #4 in gold priority instead of position 2 or 3. Thats the Riot Approved (TM) way to play the game.
Thats why they nerfed Lee Sin, Kindred, Nidalee, Graves, Elise, Hecarim, Zac, Khazix, Gragas, Udyr... etc real real hard last season. Thats why they took away SotA. Thats why they made it real hard to jungle path nicely to tent in critical lanes without losing all your gold to the other guy. Thats why they took out jungler only smite buffs and added team wide plants.
On December 09 2016 11:18 Jek wrote: I dont understand why they dont buff the other junglers up to par with Lee instead of nerfing him, he seems like the perfect baseline jungler.
Its because they dont want junglers to be good. Thats why.
Look at all the changes this offseason. They want Jungle to be position #4 in gold priority instead of position 2 or 3. Thats the Riot Approved (TM) way to play the game.
Thats why they nerfed Lee Sin, Kindred, Nidalee, Graves, Elise, Hecarim, Zac, Khazix, Gragas, Udyr... etc real real hard last season. Thats why they took away SotA. Thats why they made it real hard to jungle path nicely to tent in critical lanes without losing all your gold to the other guy. Thats why they took out jungler only smite buffs and added team wide plants.
I'm not salty at all.
I would like Jungle to be between 3 and 4 in gold priority, but there to be sacrifices to be made to move them from 2nd support to a farmed position.
Unlike Dota, 3rd position isn't actually any starved for gold typically in league. If it is, it's either a very badly losing lane (like poppy vs Jayce or trundle) or you are bad at the lane. Since every lane is expected to get 130-180 gold per wave. For the jungle to outpace a full lane of farm that would need to make some sort of sacrifice. And they kind of took all that sacrifice away by trying to remove mid/bot's ability to take camps, and having such long timers on the jungle means there is time to gank even for people who full clear.
I know it's just taking from dota, but i'd really like camp respawn to be based on game clock not kill timer.
If small camps respawned at Even:00 and Buffs at Multiples of 5:00
It'd mean maximizing gold in the jungle costs gank time, but power farm routes exist (like Raptor -> Red -> raptor for AOE, or Gromp -> blue -> Gromp for single target). I think respawn timers will always favor one style or another. but by making camps respawn so fast that you can't full clear -> gank would be nice because if it's not possible to avoid missing gold to a gank, then you actually have to plan your ganks.
On December 09 2016 11:18 Jek wrote: I dont understand why they dont buff the other junglers up to par with Lee instead of nerfing him, he seems like the perfect baseline jungler.
Its because they dont want junglers to be good. Thats why.
Look at all the changes this offseason. They want Jungle to be position #4 in gold priority instead of position 2 or 3. Thats the Riot Approved (TM) way to play the game.
Thats why they nerfed Lee Sin, Kindred, Nidalee, Graves, Elise, Hecarim, Zac, Khazix, Gragas, Udyr... etc real real hard last season. Thats why they took away SotA. Thats why they made it real hard to jungle path nicely to tent in critical lanes without losing all your gold to the other guy. Thats why they took out jungler only smite buffs and added team wide plants.
I'm not salty at all.
You sound like one of those ADC mains, complaining every patch that Riot is out to get ADCs. It's especially funny that you complain about all the jungler nerfs last season while ignoring the fact that Season 6 was the most jungle-dominated meta of all time and Worlds featured almost nothing but carry junglers.
On December 09 2016 11:18 Jek wrote: I dont understand why they dont buff the other junglers up to par with Lee instead of nerfing him, he seems like the perfect baseline jungler.
Because that would only make too much sense and allow jungle to be a strong position. Whenever jungle is strong, every non jungler complains.
Because fog of war in LOL is very poorly done.
Outside of very specific scenarios (see Challenger and pro games) its pseudo-educated guessing as to whether you can avoid a gank and its also RNG whether a gank on your lane is punished elsewhere. Much too frustrating for a game like LOL which really is a game where laning has a very high importance. Lots of RNG in an important aspect of your game is bad, even if its not real RNG, just perceived RNG to your players.
On December 09 2016 11:18 Jek wrote: I dont understand why they dont buff the other junglers up to par with Lee instead of nerfing him, he seems like the perfect baseline jungler.
Because that would only make too much sense and allow jungle to be a strong position. Whenever jungle is strong, every non jungler complains.
Because fog of war in LOL is very poorly done.
Outside of very specific scenarios (see Challenger and pro games) its pseudo-educated guessing as to whether you can avoid a gank and its also RNG whether a gank on your lane is punished elsewhere. Much too frustrating for a game like LOL which really is a game where laning has a very high importance. Lots of RNG in an important aspect of your game is bad, even if its not real RNG, just perceived RNG to your players.
I don't think it is an educated guess.
I mean, I guess it sort of becomes so because some junglers do retarded shit that doesn't make sense and only works because it doesn't make sense. But they get punished for it and lose if you are at an ELO where getting camped limits your ability to hard carry.
In general, junglers only gank at certain times, or when someone gets back to lane. I am an atrocious laner, but I almost always now before I get ganked.
I dunno, you hit certain times and you are pushed the jungler is likely there. You come back to lane for some reason at a certain point the jungler is probably there. The latter in particular (when a player just got back to lane) is when players seem to be really aggressive, but all good junglers look for that shit because it is free as hell. You know there is no ward, and you know they want to trade right when they get back. Better players realize how junglers think and don't get caught by it as often. Thats why so frequently in Challenger streams and high ELO people snuff out ganks without any vision at all. Even my bronze friends know to be scared at 3:15 if they pushed; part of being a better player is knowing when you need to be scared of a jungler.
There is a reason a guy like Faker or Impact can absorb so much jungle / mid pressure without losing anything. Because they are smart and can recognize it without complete information.
I understand how it can be perceived as random though, I guess.
Maybe, but I doubt replays will affect anyone who didn't already know those things. Look, even when you know them the fun sometimes gets to you, like I did the other night, I was just going ham on the other top laner and 'knew better' but the obvious gank came and ruined my lead anyways. Totally knew it, but greed gets you. And I played lots of games that day, but really only remember that fuck up.
On December 10 2016 05:42 iCanada wrote: I mean, I do the same thing all the time. But usually in not mad at the jungler, they just collecting free kills, I'm mad at myself.
Yea, but its like cannon rush in SC2. You really don't want to zoom around with a probe or whatever, that's for the pros to worry about, not my gold-league 20 APM ass.
On December 10 2016 05:42 iCanada wrote: I mean, I do the same thing all the time. But usually in not mad at the jungler, they just collecting free kills, I'm mad at myself.
Yea, but its like cannon rush in SC2. You really don't want to zoom around with a probe or whatever, that's for the pros to worry about, not my gold-league 20 APM ass.
Cheesy all-ins was how I could climb in SC2 and playing anti-cheese champions is how I climb in League. It takes a scumbag to know a scumbag I suppose.
Everyone should just be forced to play something like Rammus, Eve and Shaco for a day.
On December 10 2016 05:42 iCanada wrote: I mean, I do the same thing all the time. But usually in not mad at the jungler, they just collecting free kills, I'm mad at myself.
Yea, but its like cannon rush in SC2. You really don't want to zoom around with a probe or whatever, that's for the pros to worry about, not my gold-league 20 APM ass.
I think its more like being a zerg player trying to fast expand when the toss player is cannon rushing you. Your timings tight you can prevent it and shoulda know when / if its coming if you had decent scouting.
Falling for it and getting behind anything more than the time for the pylon to complete / losing to it is nothing but your own fault for executing poorly.
But maybe thats just me.
If anything I'd be mad that most of the junglers you play with aren't punishing me for derping. Makes me angry when I see real bad play and it wins.
Yes. This is the most frustrating thing and at the same time the best thing about LoL. The teamplay. In the grand scheme of things, you rise and fall with the support of the other people playing with you. And if they have no clue about what to do or how to punish decently, it makes me feel like I'm just wasting time. The most horrible types of game's I've played are the one's where the team just rolls over and dies because no decisive actions are being taken while the opposing team just steamrolls through objective after objective (without even being overly fed/farmed per se). When it gells well, however, boy oh boy is it a treat to play with your team. You got everyone being on the same wavelengths and it's like the team is just air to you. And then you have the best games of all: even games. Both teams are evenly matches and games are exciting and aren't going in any one's favour for a long time (or there's comebacks to even it up). In those games I don't really care if I win or lose and it's those games I yearn for. Sadly, it's only like 10% or less of the games played that are really even. So the question then becomes: is the time invested worth it to play only 1/10 of the time truly enjoying it because it's actually challenging? If we're really generous we can incluse the games where you're all in sync with your team, so that's maximally 30, maybe 40% of the games played? Does it then become worth it? The more I play(ed) the game, the more I've been starting to ask myself that. The game is conceptually so compelling, though, that it keeps drawing me in, blinding me with this allure from the actual shit layered under it. Or, you know, I should just git gud and clap my opponents every single game. Maybe the actual core game concept is the 1v9 and not 5v5. Just treat your team as enemies that can't kill you, but want to sabotage you. Anyway, end of rant.
i wouldn't say he's trash but there are a lot of tanks being played at the moment and redemption/ locket combo. Point blank fish is actual dumpster juice so you either have to use fog or throw it full range and use the size to zone. Late game you you aren't killing anyone w/o getting the dot proc on your w ( where late game = both teams are late game) 2 seconds is a long time in league of legends, if it's a vayne or a Caitlin net crit crit or general vayne bullshit can just kill you. Also if ryze isn't banned I wouldn't recommend blind picking him, although that one isn't fizz exclusive.
In a tryhard sense where only the best possible picks are good he's bad but he's not useless, and right now with mmr not being settled a snowball champ can come in handy. I will say my opinion isn't that valuable ATM because I quit the game (mostly) from legion release till like two weeks ago but in case anyone else that plays him doesn't speak up, that was my impression of him after like 5 games rework week and 5 in the last two.
Personally I like kass ATM in situations where I previously would have picked fizz. (Except maybe zed but nobody is playing him)
I got absolutely dumpstered by fizz as ahri today.
But I don't play mid.
Or ahri.
Holy shit that ult has a pretty nice range. Hitbox seems pretty fucking broken tho. I guess it's supposed to get a bigger hitbox the further it travels, but there's like no indicator showing the hitbox getting bigger so it looks disgusting when it somehow hits you.
On December 10 2016 02:39 cLutZ wrote: Maybe, but I doubt replays will affect anyone who didn't already know those things. Look, even when you know them the fun sometimes gets to you, like I did the other night, I was just going ham on the other top laner and 'knew better' but the obvious gank came and ruined my lead anyways. Totally knew it, but greed gets you. And I played lots of games that day, but really only remember that fuck up.
Pretty sure replays will have absolutely 0 effect on anything lol.
Also surviving ganks in pro play has absolutely nothing in common with solo/flex.
Did they change the Matchmaking Algorithms when preseason ended? because my games have been really...different since the season started. I don't think i've had a game that wasn't completely one sided one way or the other yet. only 20 games in though.
I do t know if they changed the algos, but the MMR reset should lead to more lop sided matches until people restyle into their natural MMRs. So for example if they had compressed the total range in half, then applying the same precisting algos would lead to games where the difference in skill between the median player in the game and the best and worst players was twice as much as usual.
I don't know exactly what the level of MMR compression in the soft reset was, but if it's significant (say 2 or more) that could be leading to lop sided games. I would expect that to be most significant around the middle of the MMR spectrum and probably be less of an issue in bronze. Challenges probably get lopsided games, but they would all be in the same direction.
I don't think its a bad lane. I just dont think its a lane with overly good kill pressure either, although I could be mistaken I guess. They just don't have a lot of CC or burst damage. Sustained damage and ability to win trades through outplays for sure, but its not like its Blitz-Draven or something where you screwed up once and you bursted.
That and I just hate playing my immobile tank champs against em.
On December 12 2016 06:33 iCanada wrote: I don't think its a bad lane. I just dont think its a lane with overly good kill pressure either, although I could be mistaken I guess. They just don't have a lot of CC or burst damage. Sustained damage and ability to win trades through outplays for sure, but its not like its Blitz-Draven or something where you screwed up once and you bursted.
That and I just hate playing my immobile tank champs against em.
Before the tumble revert Vayne Janna was maybe the strongest lane on that patch. in the most disgusting way.
it's less disgusting. but it's still real good. You can avoid dying to it now, but it doesnt result in good times for the team, unless you are cait, or much better than the other player.
On December 12 2016 06:33 iCanada wrote: I don't think its a bad lane. I just dont think its a lane with overly good kill pressure either, although I could be mistaken I guess. They just don't have a lot of CC or burst damage. Sustained damage and ability to win trades through outplays for sure, but its not like its Blitz-Draven or something where you screwed up once and you bursted.
That and I just hate playing my immobile tank champs against em.
The problem here is that unless you are winning vs vayne you are actually behind. So it isn't so weird to imagine that lots of people try to make shit happen and just execute poorly.
Not to mention the 5 most played ad-s excluding vayne are cait/ez/jhin/jinx/lucian and she is really good vs 4 of them lol.
Autofill is on whenever there isn't enough players queued up for all roles (read: not enough supports). Riot decided to shorten queue times by forcing people to support once in a while. Sometimes you can be autofilled to other roles but I'm pretty sure support "popularity" is the main reason why they made autofill like this.
On December 12 2016 06:33 iCanada wrote: I don't think its a bad lane. I just dont think its a lane with overly good kill pressure either, although I could be mistaken I guess. They just don't have a lot of CC or burst damage. Sustained damage and ability to win trades through outplays for sure, but its not like its Blitz-Draven or something where you screwed up once and you bursted.
That and I just hate playing my immobile tank champs against em.
Before the tumble revert Vayne Janna was maybe the strongest lane on that patch. in the most disgusting way.
it's less disgusting. but it's still real good. You can avoid dying to it now, but it doesnt result in good times for the team, unless you are cait, or much better than the other player.
jungler is still the #1 priority role in solo q, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. 90% of games are decided by the junglers, the exp is still way off. Junglers are still getting level 6 before/at the same time as laners and their pressure is even higher then last season.
On December 13 2016 00:02 VayneAuthority wrote: jungler is still the #1 priority role in solo q, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. 90% of games are decided by the junglers, the exp is still way off. Junglers are still getting level 6 before/at the same time as laners and their pressure is even higher then last season.
There is already a cheese for aoe junglers where you get a spell from your mid on the small raptors to gib them with yours then go red > Krug and hit that sweet level 3 gank timing within 10 seconds of last patch.
I'm not 100% Sure how many you need to kill it might be possible for st but I've only seen it done with vi or shy
On December 13 2016 00:02 VayneAuthority wrote: jungler is still the #1 priority role in solo q, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. 90% of games are decided by the junglers, the exp is still way off. Junglers are still getting level 6 before/at the same time as laners and their pressure is even higher then last season.
There is already a cheese for aoe junglers where you get a spell from your mid on the small raptors to gib them with yours then go red > Krug and hit that sweet level 3 gank timing within 10 seconds of last patch.
I'm not 100% Sure how many you need to kill it might be possible for st but I've only seen it done with vi or shy
I'm salty that they nerfed krug xp JUST enough that you are 1 XP shy of level three from red -> Krug if you go 6% XP quints.
you should get the reward for sacrificing your quints.
On December 13 2016 00:02 VayneAuthority wrote: jungler is still the #1 priority role in solo q, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. 90% of games are decided by the junglers, the exp is still way off. Junglers are still getting level 6 before/at the same time as laners and their pressure is even higher then last season.
There is already a cheese for aoe junglers where you get a spell from your mid on the small raptors to gib them with yours then go red > Krug and hit that sweet level 3 gank timing within 10 seconds of last patch.
I'm not 100% Sure how many you need to kill it might be possible for st but I've only seen it done with vi or shy
Hmm I wonder if you could run the same cheese as shaco by prepping boxes at the raptors and then getting a good leash at red. At work now but I'll probably test this once I get home.
On December 13 2016 00:02 VayneAuthority wrote: jungler is still the #1 priority role in solo q, dont let anyone tell you otherwise. 90% of games are decided by the junglers, the exp is still way off. Junglers are still getting level 6 before/at the same time as laners and their pressure is even higher then last season.
There is already a cheese for aoe junglers where you get a spell from your mid on the small raptors to gib them with yours then go red > Krug and hit that sweet level 3 gank timing within 10 seconds of last patch.
I'm not 100% Sure how many you need to kill it might be possible for st but I've only seen it done with vi or shy
I'm salty that they nerfed krug xp JUST enough that you are 1 XP shy of level three from red -> Krug if you go 6% XP quints.
you should get the reward for sacrificing your quints.
Does it matter? Can't you just time the gank to a lane so that you arrive when a minion is about to die?
On the topic of Camille, I've only seen her twice now - Once on my team and once played by myself. I have to say that she is a ton of fun to play, likely going to be my main from now on. There are numerous little tricks you can use, the mobility is insane and she has some nice harrass.
That teammate Camille did seem to do nothing all game and just died horribly in every fight whereas in my game we won with the kills being 25-3 so it didn't really indicate anything. Stil, she's a ton of fun and that's great because after Fiora got changed I hadn't really had a champion I'd considered a lot of fun to play until now. Hopefully if they nerf her they keep the gameplay the same.
On December 13 2016 09:38 M2 wrote: played couple of games against camille today, she looks strong, but like normally strong, not something to over or underestimate
usually if a champ looks decent on the first day of release its probably really damn good. camille looks damn strong
After playing a couple more games with Camille I'm thinking she's actually ridiculously strong. I mean, I was solo top vs a Malphite who had like 25 armor off runes and who built full armor(sunfire first) and I still dunked him for like 30% hp per combo and quickly whittled him down.
However, there also is a clear window of opportunity vs Camille. As I was storing my Q so that it'd proc the true damage, the Malphite ulted just before that moment and by the time I came out of the CC, my Q proc had already gone. So champions who are able to CC Camille during the window before she can do the true damage Q(the window lasts for 1.5 seconds if timed perfectly, but realistically it's less), you shut down a massive portion of Camille's damage. And for this reason, I think that Jayce for instance could do well because he can knock her away at that time and then go on her after the Q proc has faded. Garen is another champion who comes to mind - He can Q Camille just before the second Q. If Camille cannot get those true damage Qs off, she really doesn't do all that special damage. Another thing that the Malphite could have done is just used Q on me at the right time and ran away for the 1.5 second window and then re-engaged. It's possible he'd have won the exchanges if he had done that.
Therefore, there might be some counterplay here that people just haven't figured out how to do yet.
On December 14 2016 00:20 kongoline wrote: if she has a lot of mobility its sure she will end up OP in one way or another
The best part of her kit isn't even that. it's the hop on her ult. It can go over walls and makes her untargetable while she's in the air. You can straight up dodge anything you want with it, and then it also shoves everyone but the target away. So it's fizz E with a better J4 ult, and Xin ult all combine. That and the 100% spell vamp on her W. heh.
On December 14 2016 00:20 kongoline wrote: if she has a lot of mobility its sure she will end up OP in one way or another
Well her mobility is more in her zipline than anything else so I am guessing you can do the things you would do for Quinn's E? I haven't played Camille yet so I don't know her range, power, etc...
The new season in review tool up on the riot website is pretty cool. I liked the season long heat-maps feature. You can get some surprising insights from that. For example in kills vs deaths I see I'm about even in lanes (which is good overall since I'm also getting assists about half the ganks which result in kills), but around the dragon pit I have way more deaths than kills. So I'm probably trying for steals too often ot taking dragons in situations it isn't safe.
Unless i got something wrong it takes your normal games into consideration so it's pretty much useless. It's double useless for people who didn't main one role for the entire season, my heat maps are just red everywhere.
That Teemo bug explains a lot about why i saw him one shotting people like crazy. him being able to auto -> Q for thunerlords was nuts. i just assumed he shot a 2nd time i couldnt see but nope.
imo smite change is big makes champions which were weaker in new jungle even worse and doesnt change much for top tiers like lee,reksai,zac maybe besides using extra 1 flask charge instead of 1/0, riot always kills any jungle diversity with their changes -.-
On December 14 2016 22:05 kongoline wrote: imo smite change is big makes champions which were weaker in new jungle even worse and doesnt change much for top tiers like lee,reksai,zac maybe besides using extra 1 flask charge instead of 1/0, riot always kills any jungle diversity with their changes -.-
Speaking of which, how do people feel about the fervor buff in 6.24? I feel like it still sucks comapred to its old self,but I do tend more towards attack speed / on hit champions.
On December 16 2016 01:59 General_Winter wrote: Speaking of which, how do people feel about the fervor buff in 6.24? I feel like it still sucks comapred to its old self,but I do tend more towards attack speed / on hit champions.
It's good enough to use now but not to compete with warlords or tlords if they are at all beneficial for your hero imo
I can't enter or make games? "an unknown error has occured."
I even re-install.
EDIT: Pantheon absolutely dumpsters Camille, btw. Its prolly one of his best matchups. Can't push, will be squishy, can't follow, will be too poor to properly splitpush while you snowball game. I'd bet stuff like Fiora, Kennen, Jayce, Irelia, and teemo probably do quite well as well.
On December 16 2016 13:58 iCanada wrote: Lol busted for anyone else?
I can't enter or make games? "an unknown error has occured."
I even re-install.
EDIT: Pantheon absolutely dumpsters Camille, btw. Its prolly one of his best matchups. Can't push, will be squishy, can't follow, will be too poor to properly splitpush while you snowball game. I'd bet stuff like Fiora, Kennen, Jayce, Irelia, and teemo probably do quite well as well.
yeah fiora and jax can win simply by outscaling hard later on
On December 15 2016 06:49 kongoline wrote: wont change much cant use CotC and his scaling is garbage he cant powerfarm anymore to build mid game advantage and on even gold hes mediocre
lel
On December 15 2016 15:35 Harem wrote: olaf uses fervor anyways which is great on him
what lel? thats not even my opinion both tarzaned and silas pretty much OTP climbed with him in s6 and now say hes much weaker and success depends on luck he isnt even in top10 most played junglers and his winrate dropped to 48%, he was even barely picked on IEM and pros are usually stubborn with that
Yeah, it was rumored a while back for $250m. Still, a 7 year commitment is pretty big and this kind of a "TV" deal is what fuels major sports leagues and could really open up revenue sharing in the west.
Interesting price point and duration. 7 years puts us at s13 and probably 0 of the current top players still playing. Also would be fun to see their streaming trends that they showed to sell MLB that it's not declining in popularity, which this site's traffic would not be a great testament for.
On December 17 2016 01:44 PrinceXizor wrote: Wonder if there is any revenue sharing with the teams or if riot is just cashing in and not sharing.
I doubt the fact that they increased the prize pools and this deal happened are mutually exclusive events.
Prize pools are really minor, they could already afford to make that increase from their microtransaction and ad sale revenue. Revenue sharing would split an actually significant portion of the deal amongst the teams. Now that they are probably franchising. it's how big time sports do, even College football does it.
I also wouldnt put it past riot to claim that increasing prize pools is them 'sharing' that broadcast deal.
On December 17 2016 01:50 cLutZ wrote: Interesting price point and duration. 7 years puts us at s13 and probably 0 of the current top players still playing. Also would be fun to see their streaming trends that they showed to sell MLB that it's not declining in popularity, which this site's traffic would not be a great testament for.
I mean They could just be showing global viewership which is probably growing due to asia, even if it does appear to be declining in the west. It'd be a little sneaky but then again.. it's riot. But unlike any other US based broadcast group, MLB cares a lot more about asia since they already have a lot of deals there.
All the bugs came when they went to beta. I been alpha testing the client for like a year or some shit and it's been pretty good. Then they released it to everyone and it exploded.
Now that I have some vacation days towards the end of the year I'm getting to play a lot of games and I really like Nunu this patch.
Attack speed marks ap runes scaling health seals and move speed quints. The ms quints along with his new passive (+10% move speed once stacked) make him really fast. You can push lanes and run away, invade run away, and just move through your own kg to clear. Plus you can get to lanes that need ganking really quick.
For route I like start blue, gromp wolves. If mid is overextend get e as your third skill and gank. Otherwise get a second point in consume. Then red, birds, krugs, scuttle. If bot / top (depending on side) is over extended gank. Otherwise invade and take their gromp which has reapawnwed by this point. Nunu clears really fast. Even shyv can't keep up and you will get her gromp and sometimes even wolves.
For build, I like cinderhulk. Boots based on who is scary (taby or merc or maybe swiftys if everyone on other team is bad). Tiamat. Visage or deadmans. Finish titanic hydra. Knights vow if there is at least one good carry one your team. The other defensive item. With consume and hulk and hydra you clear blazingly fast in the jg. Late game with W and hydra and that much health your wave clear is insane (really, tanks should not have wave clear like this, you clear comparably to some 6 item adcs). This build gets you over 5000 health so titanic does a lot of air damage In Team fights. You don't build any ap so your abilities are mostly just cc and utility. But that's fine. With consume + smite you tear down barons and dragons really fast. You solo dragon faster than people can respond starting at level 7 or so.
Anyway. I think Nunu is really good right now. When they changed his passive his win rate went through the roof. Then people forgot about him in the time of red krug level three gank. But that's been nerfed and Nunu new passive is still here.
On December 20 2016 11:44 General_Winter wrote: Now that I have some vacation days towards the end of the year I'm getting to play a lot of games and I really like Nunu this patch.
Attack speed marks ap runes scaling health seals and move speed quints. The ms quints along with his new passive (+10% move speed once stacked) make him really fast. You can push lanes and run away, invade run away, and just move through your own kg to clear. Plus you can get to lanes that need ganking really quick.
For route I like start blue, gromp wolves. If mid is overextend get e as your third skill and gank. Otherwise get a second point in consume. Then red, birds, krugs, scuttle. If bot / top (depending on side) is over extended gank. Otherwise invade and take their gromp which has reapawnwed by this point. Nunu clears really fast. Even shyv can't keep up and you will get her gromp and sometimes even wolves.
For build, I like cinderhulk. Boots based on who is scary (taby or merc or maybe swiftys if everyone on other team is bad). Tiamat. Visage or deadmans. Finish titanic hydra. Knights vow if there is at least one good carry one your team. The other defensive item. With consume and hulk and hydra you clear blazingly fast in the jg. Late game with W and hydra and that much health your wave clear is insane (really, tanks should not have wave clear like this, you clear comparably to some 6 item adcs). This build gets you over 5000 health so titanic does a lot of air damage In Team fights. You don't build any ap so your abilities are mostly just cc and utility. But that's fine. With consume + smite you tear down barons and dragons really fast. You solo dragon faster than people can respond starting at level 7 or so.
Anyway. I think Nunu is really good right now. When they changed his passive his win rate went through the roof. Then people forgot about him in the time of red krug level three gank. But that's been nerfed and Nunu new passive is still here.
If you aren't getting any AP items, wouldn't it be best to change the AP runes to MR and have full resistance?
I basically dropped nunu because the red side jungle changes shit on consume. It's a champion I've always enjoyed but the haves and have nots for red side are so pronounced I feel so far behind when I don't pick meta
Actually agree that Nunu is severely underrated right now. Great gank setup with iceballs early game and early dragon pressure with consume. Good mid game zoning with ult + iceball on enemy AD carries. Decent utility with blood boil late game and frontline for ally AD carry. What I dont enjoy about Nunu though is his reliance on his team because he is not a carry jungler.
I've just been spamming Rek'Sai all patch. She's a rock in the new jungle. She has godly red side clear and she's one of the only junglers who I don't feel grossly inefficient starting red side on due to tunnels. She has a much better time raotors>red>golems then any other jungler. It's still inefficient but it's only 10s or so and sometimes just going the right path wins games.
That and her ult right now is a free kill with good tunnel network. Everyone thinks it's a farm alarm.. but there no camp's up.
The flexibility, simplicity, and efficiency of reksai just makes her the best jungler right now. Only jungler I can play my s6 battleward style on without being real feast or famine.
I was Top/Jungle roles last season, now I go Top/Mid, I just no longer have the desire to adjust to the new jungles. Maybe if I was jungle main, but it has always been my secondary and I got fed up :-)
I think jungle secondary should not be allowed, at least from plat above. I dont think I ever played in a meta (started mid season 3) where the jungle role was not the most significant and impacting role. I mean if you have skill gap between any laners it can be covered by others (talking about elos where people have basics and don't feed mindlessly), but if you have a skill gap between the junglers, the whole map is gone and you can rarely recover from that, maybe if all 4 other teammates are better then maybe, not sure. And if the better jungler also plays meta champ then you can ff at 10 just by looking at their map movement.
There are a lot more factors than "who has the better jungler" in the vast majority of games. The idea is pretty stupid in general and all it would do is increase q time while fucking with lots of people.
The top 3: 1. Which team has more people who will start inting if game doesnt go as they want it to 2. Which team has easier to execute teamcomp 3. Which team has at least 1 person who isn't completely retarded and can utilize pings
I think jungle skill is also a weird metric. How did you define?
Some players die to awful ganks and some junglers get fed when they should just be poor meanwhile the other jungler has same gold because he farms better and has been punishing other guys stupid ganks.
Is jungler getting kills on ganks thathe shouldn't work skilled? Other guy has same gold but his team is losing. Other guy would get hard winning if his lanes weren't retarded.
On December 22 2016 02:37 Slusher wrote: While I don't disagree that jungle is the most op role ATM I think all players are overly judgmental of their main role when they are stuck offrole.
This is true, but if you're a top laner forced bot, it's not like you can look top and see how badly the top laner is missing CS, getting zoned, taking bad trades, etc. But if you're a jungler forced mid, you can see just from the minimap the dumb pathing your jungler is taking, and how your jungler is never involved in the early game fights.
the #1 rule to every game is who has the better jungler, not even close to being disputable this season. The exception to the rule is a large ADC skill level skill difference, that's the only thing that trumps jungler. Because despite the whining, adcs still take over the game after 3 items and acquiring that quickly is tough for the other team to deal with.
The only close games I ever have is when the junglers are equally terrible, then it actually turns into a real league game.
the tahm kench game in my recent history is a good example, me and twitch had good synergy and basically 2v5'd them even though we were getting dumpstered by lee sin and our elise was completely boosted. Doesnt matter when twitch gets an instant triple kill as soon as he starts attacking
On December 22 2016 02:37 Slusher wrote: While I don't disagree that jungle is the most op role ATM I think all players are overly judgmental of their main role when they are stuck offrole.
This is true, but if you're a top laner forced bot, it's not like you can look top and see how badly the top laner is missing CS, getting zoned, taking bad trades, etc. But if you're a jungler forced mid, you can see just from the minimap the dumb pathing your jungler is taking, and how your jungler is never involved in the early game fights.
wut toplaner missing cs because hes filling bot shouldnt happen unless he sucks in general
On December 22 2016 02:37 Slusher wrote: While I don't disagree that jungle is the most op role ATM I think all players are overly judgmental of their main role when they are stuck offrole.
This is true, but if you're a top laner forced bot, it's not like you can look top and see how badly the top laner is missing CS, getting zoned, taking bad trades, etc. But if you're a jungler forced mid, you can see just from the minimap the dumb pathing your jungler is taking, and how your jungler is never involved in the early game fights.
wut toplaner missing cs because hes filling bot shouldnt happen unless he sucks in general
No I mean that if you're a top main but playing some other role, it's often hard to see how bad your top laner is fucking up unless he is straight int'ing his lane. But if you're a jungle main playing another role, it's very easy to see how terrible your jungler is even without watching him directly.
I'd say the Tahm game VA linked would fall under difference in teamcomps, yours was much easier to teamfight with than theirs, because the enemy team was both very squishy against twitch and didn't have a whole lot of dive that Tahm W couldn't handle.
On December 22 2016 05:34 Fildun wrote: I'd say the Tahm game VA linked would fall under difference in teamcomps, yours was much easier to teamfight with than theirs, because the enemy team was both very squishy against twitch and didn't have a whole lot of dive that Tahm W couldn't handle.
the end screen I guess doesn't really illustrate the point I was trying to make. That lee sin completely dominated the entire game, and our elise couldnt land a single cocoon. pretty sure our mid was legit 0-6-0 at one point. Elise was down 3 levels.
But we had an adc that knew what he was doing and they didnt, so 20 minutes of complete outclass are instantly negated.
I wonder who that lee is anyway, obvious bought account/super smurf
People can have pretty big disparities between mains and secondary roles. And even bigger disparities between secondary and filled roles. If you get bumped from your main and the person who gets it is secondary they could very well be awful.
On December 22 2016 07:12 JimmiC wrote: Yeah but if u got bumped from your main it's not likely they they got bumped from their main into jungle. It is more likely that it is there main. And it would take quite a fluke for them to fill into your main. Why would they not just fill into your secondary?
I don't think that whether you are in your secondary affects the probability of whether anyone else is in their secondary.
The way I think it works was, let's say you are jungle/mid and you found a lobby with a duo bot and a solo top. You get soft-locked into that lobby while the game looks for someone else to slot in. Now if someone queued for [anything other than mid]/jungle comes along in your MMR, they get slotted into your game depending on how long the queue has been.
More generally, I mean, you can't take the efficient MMR hypothesis too far. Sometimes people have bad games. Sometimes you get mismatched games where you have the stronger mid and a weaker jungler to compensate. And although across all games, you are statistically likely to have junglers approximately as strong as you, in any particular game, it's very possible for you to have a jungler considerably worse than what you would have done. Of course, the fundamental attribution error also makes it much easier for you to spot their mistakes than your own mistakes, so you always think people are worse than yourself. But it doesn't change the fact that of all players forced offrole, it's usually the junglers that can most easily spot the mistakes of their replacement, because a jungler's screwups affect the game on a global/macro level rather than just local.
i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond
doing that you hit the wall at around high challenger
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
if i'm not going to have fun playing a game with a different champion or role i'm simply not going to play it at all.
and literally nobody says that the ideal way to improve is to play as many characters as possible. it's a pretty surefire way to get better if you have an extremely small champion pool.
the things you need to learn to climb to a reasonably high elo are all independent of the character you are playing.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
On December 22 2016 23:55 JimmiC wrote: Little did you know but a garen top main got auto filled adc the other team and you just threw away that freelo
Some games have players arguing about picks, roles, whining or whatever else. I can find something more productive or entertaining to do for five minutes or even the 20(?) from a second dodge. Might have won that game either way but I don't feel like playing 15 mins if someone gives up fp and my teammate afks.
I dodge when someone picks disco Nunu, but if that's not the case I feel like on average I'll still gain Elo. So basically I never dodge. When I have flamers/ragers on my team I don't have less fun, since I'll be mostly focusing on my own play or laughing at them. I also don't dislike playing from behind, something that really annoys me is when people say gg next without us being down 30 to 3 in kills or something like that.
I know Sufficiency has ran stats on % likelihood to win based on gold leads at certain times. That seems like something ripe for a graph: x-axis is time, y-axis is gold lead, and color shading indicates likelihood of victory.
On a related note: is there a reason why overall gold lead is present in spectator UI but not in-game?
It's a "fog of war" tradition going back to dota. It's a similar argument to jungle timers making a macro assessment based on items opposed to a gold value number being fed to you.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
I have limited time too. I dodge games I dont expect to have fun in aka when people start flaming hardcore in champ select or when I'm going to support someone with horrible adc stats. I'm not going to waste my time on games I'm almost surely not going to enjoy.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
This is like saying you should never fold in poker if you need to make money fast because "Do you really think people can make money by never playing hands?"
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
This is like saying you should never fold in poker if you need to make money fast because "Do you really think people can make money by never playing hands?"
Great comparison actually.
Time is money, consider the 6-minutes, or 30-minutes time out just a small sacrifice to avoid 45 minutes wasted instead. Sure, there's a chance you suck-out and win the hand/game, but more often than not, you know it's better to sacrifice the smaller amount than go all-in chasing ghosts.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
actually i work full time 70 hours a week + go to night school for 12 hours a week for work related reasons. despite that i spend a couple hours a week when i can to play ranked and i play every game i get. i hate when im in the middle of champ select and some dickhead dodges because his lee sin got banned or he didnt get his top lane. i dont get why you care about climbing so much when youre shit at the game overall. all dodging and playing "mains" does is create some false illusion that youre actually good at the game, when in reality you are bad at 80% of champions and 80% of the roles (4/5). id rather be able to hold my own in diamond for every champion and role, than be a one trick pony in challenger and be labelled as boosted every time i play something else. if holding a high rank despite you being crap at everything other than your main means that much to you, you need to sort out your ego complex. also, for the guys who care about improving at the game rather than simply holding a high rank, take it from a guy who actually played dota professionally. playing every champion and every role is crucial to getting better at the game. you can argue that dota and lol are different games, but tbh fundamentally they are the same shit. learning how to play a champion doesnt teach you how to play the game. and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict, so accept the fact that youre gonna have tilters and feeders and learn to win with them in your team, or go play normals and enjoy yourself.
On December 23 2016 09:42 evilfatsh1t wrote: and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict.
No, I dodge norms for the same reasons I dodge ranked games. The game doesn't suddenly become more/less enjoyable based on the queue you decide to play that day.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
This is like saying you should never fold in poker if you need to make money fast because "Do you really think people can make money by never playing hands?"
No, because expected Elo from skill difference in League varies way more than EV in poker. Even if you're crushing the game you should still fold 60% pre, but if you're crushing LoL there's only a 1% need to dodge.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
learning how to play a champion doesnt teach you how to play the game. and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict
For the first sentence, no, it doesn't, but playing all champs doesn't teach you that either. As for the second part, wtf does that even mean.
On December 23 2016 09:42 evilfatsh1t wrote: and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict.
No, I dodge norms for the same reasons I dodge ranked games. The game doesn't suddenly become more/less enjoyable based on the queue you decide to play that day.
if you dodge norms as well you shouldnt be playing any competitive game that isnt 1v1. i understand lol was meant to be a more "casual" game, but straight up refusing to play games because you dont like the mentality of your teammates or somethings is just childish.
On December 23 2016 11:35 Fildun wrote: For the first sentence, no, it doesn't, but playing all champs doesn't teach you that either. As for the second part, wtf does that even mean.
what i meant was if youre looking to play lol strictly because you want enjoyment, then youre playing the wrong game. the nature of these games are that they are competitive and they involve a lot of players. if you cant deal with that aspect of the game and your only solution is to dodge then my guess is you have a weak mentality and you probably dodge struggles in real life as well. embrace the competitiveness and play ranked, accepting the fact that there are people who will troll/feed/tilt etc and play your way through that difficulty, or let go of any competitive mindset you have and play normals like a true casual. you cant have it both ways, thats just being immature.
believe it or not, dodging isnt something that just affects you. you can justify youre reasons for dodging all you want and in the end it is your choice to make regardless of what people think, but im just annoyed because im sick to death of seeng a dodger every 5 champ selects, leading me to have to wait another 5 mins for a queue. And no matter how much i try and empathise with dodgers, in the end to me the problem just seems to be they just dont have the right mentality to even play these games if they cant handle having toxic teammates once in a while
On December 23 2016 09:42 evilfatsh1t wrote: and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict.
No, I dodge norms for the same reasons I dodge ranked games. The game doesn't suddenly become more/less enjoyable based on the queue you decide to play that day.
if you dodge norms as well you shouldnt be playing any competitive game that isnt 1v1. i understand lol was meant to be a more "casual" game, but straight up refusing to play games because you dont like the mentality of your teammates or somethings is just childish.
On December 23 2016 11:35 Fildun wrote: For the first sentence, no, it doesn't, but playing all champs doesn't teach you that either. As for the second part, wtf does that even mean.
what i meant was if youre looking to play lol strictly because you want enjoyment, then youre playing the wrong game. the nature of these games are that they are competitive and they involve a lot of players. if you cant deal with that aspect of the game and your only solution is to dodge then my guess is you have a weak mentality and you probably dodge struggles in real life as well. embrace the competitiveness and play ranked, accepting the fact that there are people who will troll/feed/tilt etc and play your way through that difficulty, or let go of any competitive mindset you have and play normals like a true casual. you cant have it both ways, thats just being immature.
believe it or not, dodging isnt something that just affects you. you can justify youre reasons for dodging all you want and in the end it is your choice to make regardless of what people think, but im just annoyed because im sick to death of seeng a dodger every 5 champ selects, leading me to have to wait another 5 mins for a queue. And no matter how much i try and empathise with dodgers, in the end to me the problem just seems to be they just dont have the right mentality to even play these games if they cant handle having toxic teammates once in a while
Sounds to me like you like to play a game you don't have the adequate time for and are projecting your frustrations onto other people.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
This is like saying you should never fold in poker if you need to make money fast because "Do you really think people can make money by never playing hands?"
No, because expected Elo from skill difference in League varies way more than EV in poker. Even if you're crushing the game you should still fold 60% pre, but if you're crushing LoL there's only a 1% need to dodge.
Not the point of the analogy. The guy I was responding to claimed that if you are short on time, you don't have time to dodge because you don't gain LP if you are dodging. This is exactly the same as saying, if you are short on time at the poker table, you don't have time to fold because you don't make money by folding. In truth, of course, on balance you will net positive Elo and cash if you consistently dodge and fold at the appropriate times. Of course, no sane human dodges in League as much as you should be folding in poker, but the point is the same. If it is negative EV to stay in the hand, you fold, and if your expected LP in champ select is less than -3, then you should dodge.
The case for dodging is actually stronger in League than in poker because you don't lose MMR when you dodge, so even though you're losing LP you're going to gain that LP back faster. It's as if every blind you fold gets a portion added back as a free bonus to future pots you win.
On December 23 2016 09:42 evilfatsh1t wrote: and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict.
No, I dodge norms for the same reasons I dodge ranked games. The game doesn't suddenly become more/less enjoyable based on the queue you decide to play that day.
if you dodge norms as well you shouldnt be playing any competitive game that isnt 1v1. i understand lol was meant to be a more "casual" game, but straight up refusing to play games because you dont like the mentality of your teammates or somethings is just childish.
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say that the kind of people who say stuff like "it is childish that others prefer to avoid the company of obnoxious people", are not infrequently the people that those others are trying to avoid.
This is kind of buttressed by your subsequent complaint that people keep dodging in your lobbies. People dodging champ select is honestly, like #4715 on the list of problems that the average League player faces, but if it's an extremely above-average problem for you, consider whether it is something that is common to all your lobbies that is causing that problem.
You could not say anything and pick only meta champs and still get tons of dodges. When I am solo most of the time it takes 2/3 tries to get a game going and that just makes the wait times awful.
On December 23 2016 19:35 nafta wrote: You could not say anything and pick only meta champs and still get tons of dodges. When I am solo most of the time it takes 2/3 tries to get a game going and that just makes the wait times awful.
^ this. its bad enough having to wait through multiple matchfinding attempts because someone doesnt accept, but then having the lobby broken because someone dodges halfway through the pick phase is just frustrating.
i dont talk in lobby and hardly in games. most of my communication is done through pings anyways. my biggest annoyance with lol comes from something that is actually controlled by players. theres no point complaining about the state of the game because its beyond my control anyway. players dodging however is a conscious decision they are making that is ruining my experience, and for what? you get to keep your mmr and a marginally better chance of winning in your next lobby at the cost of minor lp loss and a loser's mentality? id rather not be a pussy thanks
On December 23 2016 09:42 evilfatsh1t wrote: and for those who argue that they simply want to enjoy the game and dont want to "waste their time" with feeders/tilters etc, why are you even playing ranked then? what you claim to want and what youre doing are in conflict.
No, I dodge norms for the same reasons I dodge ranked games. The game doesn't suddenly become more/less enjoyable based on the queue you decide to play that day.
if you dodge norms as well you shouldnt be playing any competitive game that isnt 1v1. i understand lol was meant to be a more "casual" game, but straight up refusing to play games because you dont like the mentality of your teammates or somethings is just childish.
On December 23 2016 11:35 Fildun wrote: For the first sentence, no, it doesn't, but playing all champs doesn't teach you that either. As for the second part, wtf does that even mean.
what i meant was if youre looking to play lol strictly because you want enjoyment, then youre playing the wrong game. the nature of these games are that they are competitive and they involve a lot of players. if you cant deal with that aspect of the game and your only solution is to dodge then my guess is you have a weak mentality and you probably dodge struggles in real life as well. embrace the competitiveness and play ranked, accepting the fact that there are people who will troll/feed/tilt etc and play your way through that difficulty, or let go of any competitive mindset you have and play normals like a true casual. you cant have it both ways, thats just being immature.
believe it or not, dodging isnt something that just affects you. you can justify youre reasons for dodging all you want and in the end it is your choice to make regardless of what people think, but im just annoyed because im sick to death of seeng a dodger every 5 champ selects, leading me to have to wait another 5 mins for a queue. And no matter how much i try and empathise with dodgers, in the end to me the problem just seems to be they just dont have the right mentality to even play these games if they cant handle having toxic teammates once in a while
Sounds to me like you like to play a game you don't have the adequate time for and are projecting your frustrations onto other people.
projecting frustrations yes. because im playing a game i dont have time for no. i just hate seeing people with such weak mentality justifying their actions when they could just grow up, take what comes at them like a man and move on.
@GI, I understand the point you're making, all I'm saying is that the occasions where dodging is +EV are so rare that the analogy, while true, doesn't really say that much.
@fizz dude, if I'm playing League for enjoyment I'm doing it wrong? And why is dodging a disco nunu in normals wrong as well?
Wasting ~30 minutes not having fun on a recreational activity is not being grown up or a man, it's being irrational. When you're just playing the game as an amateur forcing youself into something unfun is straight up silly, unlike meeting a deadline at work this isn't something you have to do.
I can understand the frustration for wasting time in queue, but people usually have a good reason for dodging. Having someone who never play role X but got autofilled into it and nobody to trade role with is way more likely to ruin your and everyone else game experience than waiting a few more minutes for another queue pop.
When I dodge I would do anyway even if it meant losing even more IP and MMR than how it currently is. If I for some reason would forget to pick a secondary and get jungle (a role I hate) and nobody to trade it with you can be 100% sure I'm going to bail, I'm not going to put my team through what might as well be a 20 minute 4v5 game likewise if I have to support a shitty ADC I'm not going to have fun and we're going to lose lane hard 90% of the time ruining the game for our teammates too.
Yeah, I might be selfish but honestly I dont care. I play the game to have fun and if I'm not going to have fun or I'm going to be the reason (jungling) nobody else on my team is going to have fun I will dodge.
The arguement that you should play everything to improve is silly when you want to learn something you focus on individual pieces at a time, not everything at once. I'd never force the kids I coach badminton to practice smash, clears, backhands, footwork, netplay, crossplay, around the head and tactics all at once it'd do more harm than good.
I know a lot of you played before the dodge timer penalty existed and it was terrible how long it could take to get a game.
Currently, most games I dodge are not specifically disco Nunu but a "no support champs" into support Garen or "can't jungle" into jungle Janna. Yeah, they're baiting a dodge and they win. If you think it's selfish to dodge that shit, okay but I don't want to play that game.
And for fuck's sake, evilfatshit if your shift button is broken you can hit the caps lock button then hit it again to turn it off. There's also a second shift button if that option is too hard. You also have an enter key to break up your walls of text.
*If Krugs weren't worth so much xp I'd hate them also.
On December 22 2016 11:44 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont get why people think dodging is an answer. there was another thread in this site where someone asked how often everyone dodges and i was amazed to see how proudly so many stated they dodged. stop being pussies and just play the game, even if youre shit at the champ or role you get. how do you expect to improve at the game if youre only playing the same 3-4 champions in the same role for an entire season. yeah you hit diamond, but that doesnt make you a diamond player. it just means you can play at diamond level ONLY when you get the champs you want. every other time youre a gold player.
amazing how lol branched off from dota but the mentality of lol players are so different. no dota player would dodge a game because they didnt get mid lane or their invoker got stolen. play every lane, role, champ etc and learn the game properly. korean pros/challengers are correct when they say "mains" are stupid. you cant be a good player when youre only good at 1 champ/role
I'm guessing you don't work or are still in school or something? No one in their right mind would have this attitude with limited free time.
Dodging is necessary if you're trying to climb on a time budget. I don't have time to waste 30+ minutes with some clown that mains volibear jungle but got autofilled support. Just an example that happens often but there are a plethora of reasons to dodge in this game
I have a kid, a full time job and I don't dodge. I don't understand why someone on limited time would dodge. If I dodge I simply don't have time to play because I am, as you say, on limited time. Do you really think people can climb by never playing the game?
This is like saying you should never fold in poker if you need to make money fast because "Do you really think people can make money by never playing hands?"
I said that if I dodge I don't have the time to play and thus I get no chance to climb (or not climb as well). A much fairer poker comparison would be to claim that you can win at poker while never sitting at a poker table.
On December 24 2016 05:37 JonnyLaw wrote: I know a lot of you played before the dodge timer penalty existed and it was terrible how long it could take to get a game.
Currently, most games I dodge are not specifically disco Nunu but a "no support champs" into support Garen or "can't jungle" into jungle Janna. Yeah, they're baiting a dodge and they win. If you think it's selfish to dodge that shit, okay but I don't want to play that game.
And for fuck's sake, evilfatshit if your shift button is broken you can hit the caps lock button then hit it again to turn it off. There's also a second shift button if that option is too hard. You also have an enter key to break up your walls of text.
*If Krugs weren't worth so much xp I'd hate them also.
You are contributing to the problem though. By dodging every time someone picks janna jungle you are showing people it works. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" as they say. Sometimes I dodge kinda randomly but if someone tries trolling I absolutely never dodge.
On December 24 2016 05:37 JonnyLaw wrote: I know a lot of you played before the dodge timer penalty existed and it was terrible how long it could take to get a game.
Currently, most games I dodge are not specifically disco Nunu but a "no support champs" into support Garen or "can't jungle" into jungle Janna. Yeah, they're baiting a dodge and they win. If you think it's selfish to dodge that shit, okay but I don't want to play that game.
And for fuck's sake, evilfatshit if your shift button is broken you can hit the caps lock button then hit it again to turn it off. There's also a second shift button if that option is too hard. You also have an enter key to break up your walls of text.
*If Krugs weren't worth so much xp I'd hate them also.
You are contributing to the problem though. By dodging every time someone picks janna jungle you are showing people it works. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" as they say. Sometimes I dodge kinda randomly but if someone tries trolling I absolutely never dodge.
I agree. I'm giving them what they want but I don't want to play that game either. So, they win. I likely never play with them again and I'm okay doing other things for a few minutes.
On December 24 2016 05:37 JonnyLaw wrote: I know a lot of you played before the dodge timer penalty existed and it was terrible how long it could take to get a game.
Currently, most games I dodge are not specifically disco Nunu but a "no support champs" into support Garen or "can't jungle" into jungle Janna. Yeah, they're baiting a dodge and they win. If you think it's selfish to dodge that shit, okay but I don't want to play that game.
And for fuck's sake, evilfatshit if your shift button is broken you can hit the caps lock button then hit it again to turn it off. There's also a second shift button if that option is too hard. You also have an enter key to break up your walls of text.
*If Krugs weren't worth so much xp I'd hate them also.
You are contributing to the problem though. By dodging every time someone picks janna jungle you are showing people it works. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" as they say. Sometimes I dodge kinda randomly but if someone tries trolling I absolutely never dodge.
And this brings us back to the real source of "toxins" in LOL that Riot never had fixed: Champ select. I've always said I'd rather be called a [insert any word here] 9v1 every game than have a troll, or a passive-agressive Champ select problem once every ten (10) games.
On December 24 2016 05:37 JonnyLaw wrote: I know a lot of you played before the dodge timer penalty existed and it was terrible how long it could take to get a game.
Currently, most games I dodge are not specifically disco Nunu but a "no support champs" into support Garen or "can't jungle" into jungle Janna. Yeah, they're baiting a dodge and they win. If you think it's selfish to dodge that shit, okay but I don't want to play that game.
And for fuck's sake, evilfatshit if your shift button is broken you can hit the caps lock button then hit it again to turn it off. There's also a second shift button if that option is too hard. You also have an enter key to break up your walls of text.
*If Krugs weren't worth so much xp I'd hate them also.
You are contributing to the problem though. By dodging every time someone picks janna jungle you are showing people it works. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" as they say. Sometimes I dodge kinda randomly but if someone tries trolling I absolutely never dodge.
And this brings us back to the real source of "toxins" in LOL that Riot never had fixed: Champ select. I've always said I'd rather be called a [insert any word here] 9v1 every game than have a troll, or a passive-agressive Champ select problem once every ten (10) games.
Which Riot actually made way way better with roll selection. Some of you just love to shit on riot no matter whqt, which is so odd to me since you clearly enjoy their game.
it was only good with role selection before autofill
currently it's worse than pre-role selection mostly because of the entitlement people have towards their assignment
On December 24 2016 05:37 JonnyLaw wrote: I know a lot of you played before the dodge timer penalty existed and it was terrible how long it could take to get a game.
Currently, most games I dodge are not specifically disco Nunu but a "no support champs" into support Garen or "can't jungle" into jungle Janna. Yeah, they're baiting a dodge and they win. If you think it's selfish to dodge that shit, okay but I don't want to play that game.
And for fuck's sake, evilfatshit if your shift button is broken you can hit the caps lock button then hit it again to turn it off. There's also a second shift button if that option is too hard. You also have an enter key to break up your walls of text.
*If Krugs weren't worth so much xp I'd hate them also.
You are contributing to the problem though. By dodging every time someone picks janna jungle you are showing people it works. "You don't negotiate with terrorists" as they say. Sometimes I dodge kinda randomly but if someone tries trolling I absolutely never dodge.
And this brings us back to the real source of "toxins" in LOL that Riot never had fixed: Champ select. I've always said I'd rather be called a [insert any word here] 9v1 every game than have a troll, or a passive-agressive Champ select problem once every ten (10) games.
Which Riot actually made way way better with roll selection. Some of you just love to shit on riot no matter whqt, which is so odd to me since you clearly enjoy their game.
They mildly made it better. The solution they made was 95% worse than actually policing champ select, which is easier than policing in-game, and easier than making a functional role selection system. Not only that, but their system proved unworkable in the most toxic places and at the highest Elos.
On December 23 2016 14:20 evilfatsh1t wrote: if you dodge norms as well you shouldnt be playing any competitive game that isnt 1v1. i understand lol was meant to be a more "casual" game, but straight up refusing to play games because you dont like the mentality of your teammates or somethings is just childish.
No, it just means that you and I use different strategies to make the most of our free-time. I will take a 6-minute hit to avoid playing with a toxic person or a Teemo jungle over wasting my time in a 30-40 minute game that was decided midway through champ select. By the time the game I actually play is over, I am more likely to be ahead in LP and MMR than if I had played the game I dodged, and I don't need to play another 30-40 minute game just to break even.
After playing some games with new rylais I stand by my original statement neefing the effect on top of nerfing it as a stat stick was unnecessary and frustrating for some weaker champions who used it. It's not terrible but I just think it's another example of bi weekly patches not being utilized.
does anyone know how accurate is this site ? theres huge amount of useful information but im not sure if its actually correct, some of builds i get seem weird
does anyone know how accurate is this site? theres insane amount of useful information but im not sure if its actually correct, some of builds i get seem weird
So, as camille sits pretty at super high winrate in high elos even after getting nerfed. Can't say I didn't expect it after her kit was shown to have pretty much everything. Just thresh syndrome on a carry, can probably take off some of the stuns/slows/etc. safely without issue, or else nerf mobility, or god forbid add some realistic mana costs.
So this new champ.
% Shield ✔ Autoattack reset ✔✔ mobility ✔✔ % health damage ✔ knockup(on other targets, but she has it) ✔ heal ✔ slow ✔ stun ✔ arena ✔
Am I missing anything? Overloaded kits forever and always!
Overal stat is slightly over 50, but once you look at win rates for item builds or skill orders everything is sky high, meaning that most of her losses are from people trying weird shit and that people sticking to bread and butter builds are winning 60ish% of the time.
Heck inproabbly should try to learn her, but I always feel like it's a waste to invest the effort in learning obviously exceptionally strong champs cause they'll just get nerfed.
Overal stat is slightly over 50, but once you look at win rates for item builds or skill orders everything is sky high, meaning that most of her losses are from people trying weird shit and that people sticking to bread and butter builds are winning 60ish% of the time.
Heck inproabbly should try to learn her, but I always feel like it's a waste to invest the effort in learning obviously exceptionally strong champs cause they'll just get nerfed.
Using winrates by item in a non-joking manner should be an excommunicable offense. There are a lot of statistical reasons why they are so bunk, especially since no site out there to my knowledge normalizes item winrates to gold advantage. No shit that a Camille that completes three damage items first is likely to win the game.
Plus, your argument is that Camille is secret OP because her highest skill order winrate is 67%, proving that her winrate is only low because of "people trying weird shit". Except that Fiddlesticks' highest skill order winrate is 69%. And Xin is 77%. Those aren't even tricky skill orders.
I agree that Camille's gonna get nerfed before she gets buffed. But the real problem is mostly just that people have no fucking idea what to do against Camille. And it's the first champ released in like two years that isn't absolute trash on release.
So Riot is going to issue some meaningless small nerf to her, and then everyone will be happy and content and think that the problem is over, when she's really basically just the same champ.
they don't know what to do because she has no meaningful counterplay. With flash and her insane wall mobility move there is no "safe" range bar jhin ult. and then you are trapped in some point and click death sphere, stupid concept.
Only thing I can think of is like tristana with her ult to blast her out, but she's pretty bad right now.
Maybe the super broken ult would be forgivable if she was super squishy as a trade off but she has pretty good base stats
I think you balance her by nerfing her out of top lane and turning her into a jungler.
If she has a better clear and worse lanew then she won't have gold to I instagib carries like she does nowhat most times and then she becomes strong and obnoxious instead of uncounterplayable. Think Lee / Elise.
I'd allow full heal on W vs jungle and put a longer champion ICD on her passive (Ie can't get shield on an enemy champ more frequently than a minute)
Junglers are sooo hard to get right though. I actually really like the "only enemies can enter" fix. It's kinda like how I wanted enemies to be able to take Thresh lantern.
I'm sure others have talked about this but why is the meta that the support takes Exhaust and the ADC takes Heal? With Windspeaker's and Ardent Censer, isn't it more efficient for a heal-based support to take Heal while the ADC gets Exhaust, since Exhaust is 90% used to protect the ADC late-game anyway?
my reasoning (as a support) is that in terms on positioning, its much, much better.
the adc is often running away from the thing you want to exhaust. if you're in exhaust range, you're often in range to get hit by whatever abilities already. The adc is busy hitting frontliners that don't need to be exhausted. imagine if you're an adc trying to exhuast jhin or cait to get away in lane. Or if you had to walk up to syndra to exhaust. that just doesn't work well.
heal is often used for movement, so adcs tend to like to control thier own mini-speed boost. A second reason, if you're not close enough, or you're an engage-melee type of support, you're not going to be near the adc. The reasoning here is less useful, so heal actually can be taken as support, but exhuast is usually more useful overall.
Its also much easier for an ADC to tell themselves when they need the heal, whereas exhaust is often a more crap shoot kind of spell that is just to be used ASAP. With heal its hard for a support to know if their Ignited ADC can live a few more seconds till it wears off and get the full heal or if they need the gimp heal, or what.
But more than anything I think it is familiarity for most people. And you need Redemption, Red SS, and Locket real fast cuz they OP as fuck right now, so I don't even know how frequently people are getting ACensor.
the only adc that its actually legit to take exhaust on is vayne, that used to be meta before the whole heal craze. its still better but people probably just used to having that heal by now
On December 31 2016 07:17 MooMooMugi wrote: Vayne with exhaust and PD is terror to 1v1 against
Vayne without either of those things is also terror to 1v1 against There's something about infinite Kha ult charges with crazy dmg boost and knockback/stun that makes it difficult
ziggs mid and ziggs adc appearing in everyone elses games. he has been pick 7/8 games for me today 2 as adc 5 as mid. i lost the game where we had him as adc but we completely destroyed bot lane 8 min fb and only really lost because our riven was really bad.
yup, with the massive amounts of damage in this game the meta is now switching to full on burst, sustained damage no longer has a place really. So that leaves tower killing which ziggs also does better.
The only adcs I see sticking around in competitive are jhin and caitlyn right now for obvious reasons. Vayne/twitch are good but dont play well against the usual lcs team comps.
ive been playing annie ap bot for fun even though its not as good.
On January 03 2017 23:45 Yorbon wrote: Sounds like league is still broken.
they would need to completely rehaul masteries to fix the game and that's obviously not happening so yea. Best they could do is number fixes. The amount of damage you get is just comical.
It was fine but they replaced sota with cotc and now bruisers are silly.
They also need to revert the tower changes bot lame so it's less of a gang bang down there. You have to win not to get first tower or you're stupid behind.
No wonder wave clear and tower pushing is a premium. Everyone just 5 man's bot because if you don't other team is retardedly ahead. Ofcourse bot laners feel like they have no impact. They buffed the average tank with CotC and removed other good early mid Game objectives away from bot, and they nerfed early adc itemization.
They just need to revert cotc, rift herald, and the tower changes.
lol what? Mages would become an even bigger problem. The only thing that can stop a katarina or lb or whatever bullshit is a tanky poppy/naut/etc.
They need to revert giving all that free % multiplier damage in addition to greenfathers gift and thunderlords that makes burst comical against anybody that isnt a CoC tank
literally the entire utility tree can be put towards increasing damage, it's just another offensive tree at this point. Nothing "utility" about it
I could bring wrong, but mages aren't that string right now are they? Aside from a few outliers (lb is kind of silly atm)
I think the early level tower buffs could perhaps be removed mid and top. That would make bottom feel less.... gangbangy.
I dunno, I'm not an adc player but my perspective is bot feels bad because of a few standout champs and because bottom is the go to place on the map while not bottom laners are in their weakest phase of play.
Maybe riot should make top the weakest early tower? There is more roaming mid and ganking from jungle and that's why adc players feel like shit right now. More ganks and they are the go to spot to be ganked because the reward not is astronomically higher than top. You feed / deny more champs, you get tower easier, and there is dragon.
they are changing how tld wortks maybe this will help but i also think greenfather is stupid and gave too much uneeded burst to junglers like lee, on a side note reddit is going full retard past couple days
On January 04 2017 09:07 iCanada wrote: I could bring wrong, but mages aren't that string right now are they? Aside from a few outliers (lb is kind of silly atm)
I think the early level tower buffs could perhaps be removed mid and top. That would make bottom feel less.... gangbangy.
I dunno, I'm not an adc player but my perspective is bot feels bad because of a few standout champs and because bottom is the go to place on the map while not bottom laners are in their weakest phase of play.
Maybe riot should make top the weakest early tower? There is more roaming mid and ganking from jungle and that's why adc players feel like shit right now. More ganks and they are the go to spot to be ganked because the reward not is astronomically higher than top. You feed / deny more champs, you get tower easier, and there is dragon.
They can't do that because it just makes pro play into lane swap and objective trading again (which, despite protestations of the super serious commentators and pro players, is not that deep strategically). The key is making "failed" roams and ganks less good, which is an on-off problem we have had (jungle ganks s2-4 were almost always worth even for just a flash, A-Sol ruined pro play by making roams so easy that Huhi could look competent).
On January 04 2017 09:07 iCanada wrote: I could bring wrong, but mages aren't that string right now are they? Aside from a few outliers (lb is kind of silly atm)
I think the early level tower buffs could perhaps be removed mid and top. That would make bottom feel less.... gangbangy.
I dunno, I'm not an adc player but my perspective is bot feels bad because of a few standout champs and because bottom is the go to place on the map while not bottom laners are in their weakest phase of play.
Maybe riot should make top the weakest early tower? There is more roaming mid and ganking from jungle and that's why adc players feel like shit right now. More ganks and they are the go to spot to be ganked because the reward not is astronomically higher than top. You feed / deny more champs, you get tower easier, and there is dragon.
The reason bot feels bad is because there's way too much sustain from Warlords. Meh. Personally I dont mind the gangbangy nature in the current situation having earlier teamfights, chaos and mayhem is way more fun than laning for 50 minutes.
Isn't ADCs complaint more that they die before they can do much of anything? My biggest issue is that tanks honestly do way too much damage for how tanky they are (ahem CotC).
You're a support player, you don't need items to be useful in gangbang fights.
ADC's in 5 mans before the first item feel completely useless though. They are getting in all these fights that stops them from farming and they are useless in these fights that are deciding the games that are starting as early as like 6 minutes.
On January 04 2017 09:13 kongoline wrote: on a side note reddit is going full retard past couple days
To be fair, has there ever been a season since season 2 where ADCs didn't bitch more than every other role combined?
Has there ever been a time when ADC's got actual improvements to their itemization other than "You loved vanilla, here's vanilla bean!" while everybody else gets new toys year after year?
name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote: name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
Here we go...
Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot.
All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
Lets be clear, even with that, we have a clear downgrade in ADC power because Riot still does not correctly value the Burst>Sustained damage paradigm.
S2 ADCs were slightly OP, since then the "OP" problem with specific ADCs has, generally, been caused by things other than autoattacks. Examples are Corki Q/R in S3, EZ Dashes, Blue EZ, Lucian at release, Lucian with infinite dash rework, Kalista stupid dash passive, Sivir Team Buff, Jihn 2000 range damage+cc, Ashe CC, etc.
Standard attack damage (including ranged, but also autos all around) has always been fine or undertuned, the problem is people not realizing that its actually very skillful in Lol (even without turning) to land many autoattacks, and abilities are actually the realm of noobs.
To me, the issues or the awkwardness of the adc role is that this is the only mandatory role, since, the beginning of lol (or almost). Actually, not the role, but the type of champs - ranged ad champs. All other roles/champs can vary a lot: initiating tanks, peeling tanks, stun bots, damage fighters, tanky fighters, mobility fighters, melee assassins, range assassins, utility mages, damage mages, control mages, assassin mages and many more, but the adcs, they all do/build essentially almost the same thing and are the only class that is always in every single game.
So, this should either change or Riot should treat them specially and the game should be balanced around them officially
On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote: name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
Here we go...
Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot.
All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense.
You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal.
But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked.
There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc.
Why couldn't summoner spells be different based on range/melee?
Like, if it's 425 for melee's, make it 400 or less for ranged. Or make it higher for melee and 425 for ranged. Or have it on higher cooldown if you're ranged..
ADCs are kind of fucked right now, I do agree here, but why is that the case? Why are they so weak when they used to not be? Is it all because of CotC? Is it because of subsequent fervor nerfs? Is it because starting items are too weak for ADCs?
Edit: I don't really mind for ADCs being pretty useless though at the start of the game, they've always started to become relevant only after the 1st completed item for some (Corki, with pen boots) up until 4 items for others (Cait). Most need 2 items for a decent powerspike atm (IE + Runaan's for cookiecutter ADCs) while they only get stronger from there on relatively to the other laners. If you aren't able to farm up and get those necessary items as the lead aa carry, you don't really deserve to win, as you're just doing your own team a disservice. Playing ADCs is playing like the bitch for the entire game and when you get big enough you just take over. Unless you just outclass everyone on the playing field ofcourse, then you just take over ASAP.
Honestly I think it's just a symptom of early season mmr shuffle making the average game decided before adc comes online. Late game adc is def still good. If they buff the early game adc s like Draven/ Lucian/mf so adc players have the option to play for the early game it could be a reasonable solution.
Also when LCs starts back up and the random reddit posters who don't actually play the game can watch teams playing around the adc instead of qt and sneaky getting dove 24/7 a lot of the hubbub will die down
On January 05 2017 00:40 Jek wrote: Maybe making their full items have more parts/steps could be a way to help their early game? BF+Cloak could be a pseudo IE and such.
Dota added something like this last year with blight stone an early game (very) mini version of desolater, that eventually is part of the deso recipe. I think most dota players consider it a good change
On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote: name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
Here we go...
Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot.
All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense.
You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal.
But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked.
There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc.
Reworked BT is bad. Maw hasn't been for ADC for a long time. Ghostblade/Cleaver/Duskblade was a very limited use thing for items that Riot didn't want them to have anyway, and LW upgrades aren't ADC exclusive.
So if we look over the "ADC list", most are either not ADC specific or were never intended for ADC usage anyway.
I think that adc is by nature a restricted role because it's completely built around auto attacks which are the only damaging "ability" that is basically the same across every champion in the game (except stuff like graves, jhin, and azir). You can only have so much variation when your champion's primary job is to point and click things until they die. I think this is more fundamental than things like the item design.
Half the (viable) champs have gotten more versatile as well, I feel, compared to when i started playing. The 'standard' auto-attacking marksmen suffer under that trend.
as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play
On January 05 2017 03:43 M2 wrote: as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play
Its the opposite though. In most games only one (sometimes fewer for certain champs) does the majority of thier work with autos. Rarely is there a melle range auto-attacker in meta (like Olaf), its usually 4 spellcasters and one autoer. It's not the ranged AD's fault that riot doesn't understand autoattack balance.
On January 05 2017 03:43 M2 wrote: as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play
Its the opposite though. In most games only one (sometimes fewer for certain champs) does the majority of thier work with autos. Rarely is there a melle range auto-attacker in meta (like Olaf), its usually 4 spellcasters and one autoer. It's not the ranged AD's fault that riot doesn't understand autoattack balance.
Depends how you classify the classes though, if you divide them to autoattackers and casters then you are right we have them 4 to 1 mostly, but if we divide them as bruisers, tanks, assassins, adcs etc. then my point stays
On January 05 2017 03:43 M2 wrote: as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play
Its the opposite though. In most games only one (sometimes fewer for certain champs) does the majority of thier work with autos. Rarely is there a melle range auto-attacker in meta (like Olaf), its usually 4 spellcasters and one autoer. It's not the ranged AD's fault that riot doesn't understand autoattack balance.
Depends how you classify the classes though, if you divide them to autoattackers and casters then you are right we have them 4 to 1 mostly, but if we divide them as bruisers, tanks, assassins, adcs etc. then my point stays
But mine is more descriptive because to win you must auto down turrets. Since auto-attacking is both necessary to win, and hugely disfavored as a damage source in most situations, it is shoehorned into teams at the ADC slot. This also has the benefit of diversifying damage types because there are more AP casters than AD ones.
The fact that Ziggs is a primary replacement for ADCs right now (and Morde with dragon has been) is perfectly in line with the paradigm of tower taking as the defining feature of the role.
ziggs in adc (pos) is so hard to talk about seriously without someone going derailing into memes. Is it surprising he's legit choice for adc (role)? Sure. Is he straight up superior to Jihn twitch Vayne and cait? No. The most ironic part about the ziggs hype to me is he doesn't even really have different weaknesses than traditional marksmen he just destroys towers faster than they already do.
Qt one of the main ppl to spread the word on shiphtur's meta will even tell you it's mid tier at best when he isn't meming
Non-buff camps now reward about 25% less XP on the First Clear* Experience Changes
[NOTE: When comparing values, remember big camps all get +50 bonus experience from jungle items]
Blue - XP lowered to 200 from 210 Red - XP lowered to 200 from 210 Gromp - XP lowered to 200 from 210 Little Krugs - XP lowered to 35 from 45 Mini Krugs - XP lowered 7 from 15 Crimson Raptor- XP increased to 20 from 15 Small Raptors - XP increased to 35 from 15.
jungle exp changes everyone who cant do early chickens is royally fucked gl hitting lvl5/6 in reasonable time
On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote: name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
Here we go...
Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot.
All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense.
You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal.
But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked.
There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc.
Reworked BT is bad. Maw hasn't been for ADC for a long time. Ghostblade/Cleaver/Duskblade was a very limited use thing for items that Riot didn't want them to have anyway, and LW upgrades aren't ADC exclusive.
So if we look over the "ADC list", most are either not ADC specific or were never intended for ADC usage anyway.
First, by your definition no role has more than a handful of role-specific items, since Sightstone isn't support-specific either. Second, you don't think LW upgrades are ADC exclusive? Really? What was the last time a non-ADC built Lord Dominik's? Maybe an insanely fed Gangplank or Riven?
On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote: name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items.
Here we go...
Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot.
All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners.
Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense.
You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal.
But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked.
There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc.
Reworked BT is bad. Maw hasn't been for ADC for a long time. Ghostblade/Cleaver/Duskblade was a very limited use thing for items that Riot didn't want them to have anyway, and LW upgrades aren't ADC exclusive.
So if we look over the "ADC list", most are either not ADC specific or were never intended for ADC usage anyway.
First, by your definition no role has more than a handful of role-specific items, since Sightstone isn't support-specific either. Second, you don't think LW upgrades are ADC exclusive? Really? What was the last time a non-ADC built Lord Dominik's? Maybe an insanely fed Gangplank or Riven?
Sightstone was designed specifically as a support item. LDR has GP, Riven, and Jayce as 7-9th on champions that buy it, because unlike champions like Fiora, they have to go overboard on offensive itemization to do their job.
I'm actually on GI's side when it comes to there being a lot more ADC items, however, I think almost none of them are ones ADC players asked for. The three zeal upgrades strike me as a choice no one wants to make, as does the LW upgrade choice. A Zhonyas clone, itemized Lee Sin kick, BKB, MLB, Clockwork "Power Cogs", spellshield active, etc are examples of what ADCs have asked for in items, not choosing between range, AOE, or movespeed.
Spell shield active is in the game. Not sure what MLB is?? Mkb? I mean that's kinda last whisper for all intents. And if a bkb item is ever added and is ranged only I couldn't disagree more. So this list is pretty weird outside of hurricane pike or ad hourglass.
I do like the idea of an item like pike being added though
On January 05 2017 08:55 Slusher wrote: Spell shield active is in the game. Not sure what MLB is?? Mkb? I mean that's kinda last whisper for all intents. And if a bkb item is ever added and is ranged only I couldn't disagree more. So this list is pretty weird outside of hurricane pike or ad hourglass.
I do like the idea of an item like pike being added though
The item has really good stats unless your going for multiplicative scaling. Aka being good at a point in the game where adc isn't currently struggling.
On January 05 2017 08:55 Slusher wrote: Spell shield active is in the game. Not sure what MLB is?? Mkb? I mean that's kinda last whisper for all intents. And if a bkb item is ever added and is ranged only I couldn't disagree more. So this list is pretty weird outside of hurricane pike or ad hourglass.
I do like the idea of an item like pike being added though
I meant MKB (thanks autocorrect) for the ministun. The spellshield active currently is channeled, and thus mostly useless for an AD who wants to use it to block a Syndra W. Pike would certainly be in their interest (similar to my Lee sin kick item).
So they've FINALLY decided they need to put more bans into the game. I know I posted this same ban/pick phase in one thread or another a couple years ago.
Biggest problem I have when I'm ADC right now is the 2-4 item period (counting boots) where I feel like the tickle-monster against any champion that isn't a lvl 2 Zyra maxing W first.
Like, I can dominate a lane and come out with 3 kills and 125CS at 15 minutes, and along comes some 0/2 Shyvanna and we can't kill her 3v1 because after 10 seconds of autos and spell-casts, she still has 3/4 health and picks up a triple kill after blicking me.
I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think that the situation I described accurately captures the feeling of playing ADC right now. Fucked if I know what the problem actually is, nevermind the solution, but ADC feels terrible to play right now in the 10-30 minute range of any game I play.
On January 06 2017 09:44 Nemireck wrote: Biggest problem I have when I'm ADC right now is the 2-4 item period (counting boots) where I feel like the tickle-monster against any champion that isn't a lvl 2 Zyra maxing W first.
Like, I can dominate a lane and come out with 3 kills and 125CS at 15 minutes, and along comes some 0/2 Shyvanna and we can't kill her 3v1 because after 10 seconds of autos and spell-casts, she still has 3/4 health and picks up a triple kill after blicking me.
I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think that the situation I described accurately captures the feeling of playing ADC right now. Fucked if I know what the problem actually is, nevermind the solution, but ADC feels terrible to play right now in the 10-30 minute range of any game I play.
From the outside, it looks like a problem of ADC items aren't designed to be impactful enough on their own like AP items, or the game state demanding an ADC presence before the stat teepee can be built to actually throw some weight around.
On January 06 2017 09:44 Nemireck wrote: Biggest problem I have when I'm ADC right now is the 2-4 item period (counting boots) where I feel like the tickle-monster against any champion that isn't a lvl 2 Zyra maxing W first.
Like, I can dominate a lane and come out with 3 kills and 125CS at 15 minutes, and along comes some 0/2 Shyvanna and we can't kill her 3v1 because after 10 seconds of autos and spell-casts, she still has 3/4 health and picks up a triple kill after blicking me.
I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think that the situation I described accurately captures the feeling of playing ADC right now. Fucked if I know what the problem actually is, nevermind the solution, but ADC feels terrible to play right now in the 10-30 minute range of any game I play.
On January 07 2017 01:00 iCanada wrote: RQ isn't a problem.
Lee has always had RQ.
It's so weird isn't it? Pretty sure I saw a Lee Sin do RQQ the first time I ever watched LCS. Next thing you'll know people will complain that getting hit by Sion ult means you'll also get hit by a Q knockup, or that getting gold carded by TF means you automatically get hit by the Q.
Riot removed Gragas's E + instant R combo, I don't see why they can't do something silimar to Lee's R + Q combo. Not that I think it's needed now, but wouldn't be mad if they chose to do that.
A lot of high level people that I've seen complain about Lee isn't because Lee is Lee and does Lee things, but because the kick collide buff they gave him on top of what he already does is the issue. That he used to be a champion that required a high level of play to do well on, but now he doesn't.
On January 07 2017 02:17 Gahlo wrote: A lot of high level people that I've seen complain about Lee isn't because Lee is Lee and does Lee things, but because the kick collide buff they gave him on top of what he already does is the issue. That he used to be a champion that required a high level of play to do well on, but now he doesn't.
That shit came out August 20, 2015. Two Star Wars movies have come out since Lee got that buff. And all of a sudden now it's a problem?
My most common ganks on LS since S1 been W hopping a wall with ward then RQing enemy lane. On the side lanes you take 1 tower shot and kick the guy into the middle of the lane. Mid you go over wraiths.
It's flashy cuz you dive kids, theb use your offensive spells defensively and put them in a shit spot. Always been good but even still it's never been op.
RQ not the problem. The problem is how much time junglers have to run around with nothing to do. Before junglers had to farm well to not fall behind. Now you get like 2 minute windows of "Well I guess I'm camping mid?"
On January 07 2017 05:20 JimmiC wrote: I don't think you nerf something because it's played too much. You nerf it if its oppressive and wins to many games.
If its played way to much you just make it a skin and laugh all the way to the bank xD
He's the best jungler in the game right now (especially competitive). His playrate has always been high, people are talking about nerfs because he is incredibly strong right now. If you listen to any high elo/pro player talk about current Lee Sin they will tell you that he's overpowered.
League Newbie, long time Dota player Learning League to play casually with some friends. Started researching and watching some videos on basic mechanics but some of the videoes are from early 2016 or late 2015. Is there a detailed and current resource for mechanics or quick way to check if a mechanic still work the same way? Google searches have been fruitless or gave conflicting information.
For example is Input Buffering still a thing? (Afaik Shift-queuing does not exist in League). In the video I saw, the examples that were given were all comboed with Flash. Does IB only work with Flash?
Can attack animation cancelling only be done with certain skills or can be it done with Stop ('s'). Is there spell animation cancelling?
On January 06 2017 23:31 VayneAuthority wrote: the "guaranteed lee sin" is much worse in vi. Tankier, ult is guaranteed to hit the target you want, clears slightly faster. Just weaker early.
15% pickrate and 54% winrate lol.
Vi is easy to play so it is normal for her to have high win rate. The fact that lee even has 49.9% is proof of him being very strong. Realistically lee shouldn't be higher than 45 or so.
On January 07 2017 07:24 Reson wrote: League Newbie, long time Dota player Learning League to play casually with some friends. Started researching and watching some videos on basic mechanics but some of the videoes are from early 2016 or late 2015. Is there a detailed and current resource for mechanics or quick way to check if a mechanic still work the same way? Google searches have been fruitless or gave conflicting information.
For example is Input Buffering still a thing? (Afaik Shift-queuing does not exist in League). In the video I saw, the examples that were given were all comboed with Flash. Does IB only work with Flash?
Can attack animation cancelling only be done with certain skills or can be it done with Stop ('s'). Is there spell animation cancelling?
You cannot animation cancel basic attacks with just the stop key alone. The closest to animation cancelling for basic attacks are autoresets, most skills that empower your next basic attack does this. There's too many interactions to list, but Riven is the most prominent example of basic attack and spell animation cancelling + autoresets.
In regards to basic mechanics there really isn't much changed. For wave manipulation check out SoloRenektonOnly's tutorials on YouTube.
While the champion has been completely reworked here's an extreme example of (ab)using autoresets + Show Spoiler +
On January 07 2017 07:24 Reson wrote: League Newbie, long time Dota player Learning League to play casually with some friends. Started researching and watching some videos on basic mechanics but some of the videoes are from early 2016 or late 2015. Is there a detailed and current resource for mechanics or quick way to check if a mechanic still work the same way? Google searches have been fruitless or gave conflicting information.
For example is Input Buffering still a thing? (Afaik Shift-queuing does not exist in League). In the video I saw, the examples that were given were all comboed with Flash. Does IB only work with Flash?
Can attack animation cancelling only be done with certain skills or can be it done with Stop ('s'). Is there spell animation cancelling?
Animation cancelling is pretty inconsistent along characters almost every character has some varying from impractical and useless to changing the tier of the character like riven and Yasuo cancels. The most universal cancel is to issue a move command as close to you feet as possible but again, this is very inconsistent by character.
I don't disagree with the above post I guess maybe the question was too broad.
Also flash buffering if I understand the reference was patched out of the game. You can buffer movement spells with a cast time to cast during cc but I think all other buffering was removed unless I don't get the question
Yes but I don't remember the e being required so that might be a work around. Not a thresh player but q flash was removed unless the e part is an adjustment to overcome the nerf (or I didn't know about it)
If by flash buffering the question was augmented skills with flash, then there are several still in the game. When I hear flash buffer I think of the old anti chain cc mechanic in which you could not be chain CC'd if your flash was available
Is Flash buffering the mechanic where, you issue a command on a target out of range, and then as your character paths to the target, you flash into range and the command instantly fires?
On January 07 2017 02:17 Gahlo wrote: A lot of high level people that I've seen complain about Lee isn't because Lee is Lee and does Lee things, but because the kick collide buff they gave him on top of what he already does is the issue. That he used to be a champion that required a high level of play to do well on, but now he doesn't.
That shit came out August 20, 2015. Two Star Wars movies have come out since Lee got that buff. And all of a sudden now it's a problem?
There's also the fact that the Jungle has gotten a facelift, the champion pool of the jungle has gotten cycled heavily, and masteries got a redo which puts Lee in a better spot from the get go.
So from what I can gather, there are two ways of animation cancelling/autoreset - using certain spells/abilities on specific champions - moving while autoattack animation (pre and post attack) Is this correct? It seems to me that we are mostly referring to cancelling the recovery time. Is it possible to Cancel an ability during its cast animation to fake a cast or is it going to happen once you start it?
The Fiora clip was really good.
For input buffering, the video I saw was only talking about flashing after casting a spell outside of its range which was suppose to be faster as opposed to the flashing then casting the same spell. I will look up the other forms of buffering mentioned.
I expected there to be a lot of Champion specific mechanics cause of how Riot designed the game but I will get into those later once I play them.
I posted the Thresh video because it's supposed to be a bug/workaround that lets you buffer your flash. Normally you can't start your Q animation before flashing. If you flash Q you will have to wait for the Q animation to start and finish after your flash which takes a lot of time. If you Q flash you will finish your Q first and then flash. Ooops. If you E Q flash you should be able to start the Q animation before flashing but I'm not sure if it's still possible on this patch.
Unlike Thresh, Ahri doesn't need to do weird shit to buffer her E + Show Spoiler +
Two more general mechanics question. 1) What disjoints attacks? What disjoint spells? For example I assume Flash will disjoint projectiles. Do all of a certain type of abilities disjoint or only certain specific ones? Are there any activable items (that disjoint or at all)?
In case disjoint isnt a common League term, I am referring dodging an attack, spell, projectile that is homing on you. Of course you can just side step skill shots.
2) What does fog of war affect? Is Bush just treated the same as fog? For example if I attack target someone and I am walking towards them then they go into fog of war, does my champion just stop? Can fog disjoint cast animations? For example enemy cast target spell on me and during cast animation I go into fog, do they still cast that spell?
On January 06 2017 23:31 VayneAuthority wrote: the "guaranteed lee sin" is much worse in vi. Tankier, ult is guaranteed to hit the target you want, clears slightly faster. Just weaker early.
15% pickrate and 54% winrate lol.
Vi is easy to play so it is normal for her to have high win rate. The fact that lee even has 49.9% is proof of him being very strong. Realistically lee shouldn't be higher than 45 or so.
Are you saying to balance for pro play or for solo q? If solo q why should Lee be 45%?
I think what they're trying to get at is that Lee should be a high skill floor and ceiling champion. As a result, in higher ranks he'll have a favorable winrate because players can get the most out of his kit. But when you open up the metric to the larger, less skilled ranks, they shouldn't be able to do the same and his rank will drop as a result.
According to what I've seen pros say, nerfing Lee needs to happen for both soloq and competitive. Not sure why they picked 45%.
pretty sure high pressure junglers are getting fucked by xp changes in next patch(which is fine). Elise,lee(on top of kick nerf). kha have big problem with raptors and dont want to waste time/hp on that camp but without it u will never get lvl5/6 unless enemy team literally feeds u kills, next patch vi,zac,hec and reksai will be relative stronger wonder how adc mains will feel about that xD
Two more general mechanics question. 1) What disjoints attacks? What disjoint spells? For example I assume Flash will disjoint projectiles. Do all of a certain type of abilities disjoint or only certain specific ones? Are there any activable items (that disjoint or at all)?
In case disjoint isnt a common League term, I am referring dodging an attack, spell, projectile that is homing on you. Of course you can just side step skill shots.
2) What does fog of war affect? Is Bush just treated the same as fog? For example if I attack target someone and I am walking towards them then they go into fog of war, does my champion just stop? Can fog disjoint cast animations? For example enemy cast target spell on me and during cast animation I go into fog, do they still cast that spell?
*target spell as opposed to skill shot spell
1) nothing disjoints except invul effects (zhonya hourglass (item)/lissandra ult/bard ult) or if the ability specifically says it makes you untargettable (fizz pole/some others). league moved away from disjoints and just made everything they want you to dodge into a skillshot, or the ability makes you untargetabble)
2) bush is effentially the same as fog. bush juking to avoid return fire is a thing, but usually rare as cast animatoins are generally fast in league
Two more general mechanics question. 1) What disjoints attacks? What disjoint spells? For example I assume Flash will disjoint projectiles. Do all of a certain type of abilities disjoint or only certain specific ones? Are there any activable items (that disjoint or at all)?
In case disjoint isnt a common League term, I am referring dodging an attack, spell, projectile that is homing on you. Of course you can just side step skill shots.
2) What does fog of war affect? Is Bush just treated the same as fog? For example if I attack target someone and I am walking towards them then they go into fog of war, does my champion just stop? Can fog disjoint cast animations? For example enemy cast target spell on me and during cast animation I go into fog, do they still cast that spell?
*target spell as opposed to skill shot spell
Only things that fizzle flying spells / autos are death for either party. Flash did in S1, but is gone.
Fog will break channels. That's about it.
There are several champions with immunities and untargetable effects though.
I know for a while if a turret shot at you but died before you get hit, it wouldn't do anything. Don't know if that's still in the game, but it's pretty niche regardless.
On January 07 2017 11:31 Gahlo wrote: I know for a while if a turret shot at you but died before you get hit, it wouldn't do anything. Don't know if that's still in the game, but it's pretty niche regardless.
I believe so, unless it has been changed since the end of last worlds.
it's possible to cancel AAs too early on some champions and have it look like the AA went off but it didn't. you still see the projectile but it wont do dmg. if that happens just chill out on the micro, it's pretty rare regardless tho
brushes are where you most often see a special case of fog mechanics, namely that autoing (not casting spells) out of it while the area would without the brush be in vision range soft reveals the brush for a couple of seconds. this also happens arcross ledges in the jungle and things like graves' smokescreen, but those are usually more fringe and it'll apply most with brushes but yes it is the same as normal fog of war.
basically AAing next to a brush and then going in will mean their ability to shoot back is somewhat limited (but wards are a thing) if you have an AA command queued up from out of range and the opp goes into a brush (or just out of vision range, aka any kind of FoW) the command is canceled and your champ gets an automatic stop command from the server
On January 07 2017 09:04 Reson wrote: So from what I can gather, there are two ways of animation cancelling/autoreset - using certain spells/abilities on specific champions - moving while autoattack animation (pre and post attack)
This is correct though slightly imprecise. To be more precise on the latter, every autoattack animation has three parts:
windup execute the autoattack winddown
If you issue an autoattack command on something moving away, your character will
1. move into range 2. windup 3. execute autoattack 4. winddown 5. move into range
So instead, you "stutter step" or "kite" or "orb walk" or "animation cancel" (these terms are all confusingly used):
1. move into range 2. windup 3. execute autoattack 4. issue move command, skipping the winddown animation, to move into range
It is important to note that doing this does NOT change your actual attack speed. If you are gated to 1 attack per second, this does not reset the inherent autoattack timer. You still can only attack once per second. The key, then, is that doing this allows you to spend less time standing still attacking and more time moving, thus preventing your target from running away.
However, there are some abilities that will reset your autoattack timer. Most of these are abilities that empower your next autoattack. For example Jax W adds damage to your next autoattack and also resets your autoattack timer. So in practice Jax tries to chain his W on the back end of an AA whenever possible to increase DPS, allowing him to get in two attacks in slightly over the amount of time he'd normally be able to attack once. You do this in exactly the same way as above, except instead of issuing a move command you just cast the spell.
Even if an ability does not reset your autoattack timer, you often want to cast abilities during the downtime in between your autoattack timer. This isn't really animation cancelling, it's just putting the time you're locked out of your autoattack to good use.
On January 07 2017 11:31 Gahlo wrote: I know for a while if a turret shot at you but died before you get hit, it wouldn't do anything. Don't know if that's still in the game, but it's pretty niche regardless.
Yes death for either party fizzles flying targeted abilities auto's.
The number of kills I've lost dying while that last spear fizzles against the champion with 5% hp is too damn high.
On January 07 2017 11:31 Gahlo wrote: I know for a while if a turret shot at you but died before you get hit, it wouldn't do anything. Don't know if that's still in the game, but it's pretty niche regardless.
Yes death for either party fizzles flying targeted abilities auto's.
The number of kills I've lost dying while that last spear fizzles against the champion with 5% hp is too damn high.
This can't be true 100% of the time... I am absolutely certain I've watched certain spell-casts land after death and deal the damage/finish the kill. I'm thinking of things like Annie Q, Miss Fortune Q, Brand R, Fiddlesticks E, among others.
Its pretty clear now. Someone in an earlier post said you can Flash while CC-ed if you time it right. What exactly does that mean? From what I heard, in League you cant queue up actions while you are CC-ed (unlike Dota) which means you have to click Flash after the CC is over. Or is that person talking about dodging Chain CC?
Think thats all for basic micro, have to play bit and learn items before asking about macro stuff such teammate expectations and tendency at different levels of play, how long it takes to travel across lanes, and resource allocation.
Can't really find a video of flashing while stunned; two ways to do it; start animation before the stun, and second is if you buffer flash during one CC, you will flash before a chained CC is applied.
This is a video of ez E dodging hooks, its a skill not Flash but works same with tighter timing.
Still can't find a video of flashing chain CC's after like 20 minutes. But it is essentially due to the way LoL buffers inputs. You just start your flash ASAP when you stunned and you see they going to overlap a CC.
And watch this video aboive any other it is amazing:
Can't really find a video of flashing while stunned; two ways to do it; start animation before the stun, and second is if you buffer flash during one CC, you will flash before a chained CC is applied.
Does that mean that League has queuing while CCed? Can I input move commands or abilities commands or is this a Flash specific thing? I was led to believe that this wasnt a thing in League.
Starting flash animation before stun will result in shorten animation flash occuring right after CC duration?
At some point, to avoid cc chains, if you queued an order it'd go off at the end of the first cc, even if its duration overlapped with a second one. They reverted it because it lead to dumb shit and people hated it (can't even pin down a mobile character, and if your comp relies on blowing up an enemy carry who's got Zhonya's or protective teammates you couldn't even kill them if you caught them out of position 'cause they'd buy enough time for their team to come and there'd be nothing you could do about it).
Normally it shouldn't be possible now. Plus Flash doesn't have an animation so that's not it either; Also there's stuff coded weirdly (like how you can cc Vi out of her cc immune ult with good timing and a displacement ability, because her ult is 2 motions and apparently the immunity can be overridden at the point between them).
There's also the whole "displacement takes priority" thing. Any ability that makes you move will cancel the current movement, for example a knock-back while you're dashing. Ezreal's E is the easiest/most obvious application: it has a slight animation delay between the cast and the actual blink, so if you start the animation before you get hooked/knocked-up (typically), when the animation completes the blink displacement will override the one you're suffering. If there's another cc attached (like Vi's ult's suppression), you'll still suffer from it for the normal duration.
Technically, displacement don't make you lose control of your character, it's only a forced movement; there's usually another cc applied under it to prevent you from acting (Alistar's knock-up and knock-back have a slightly longer-duration stun attached). People started using QSS to cleanse the stun, thus making them able to flash during the displacement, and Flash's blink overrides the displacement (works with Lee Sin's kick and Alistar's knock-up, I assume it's the same with Blitz's hook and stuff like that).
There are also some other specific cases, for example when you cast Lee Sin's ult, the very first thing the ability does is root your opponent, so you can't respond to the animation with a delayed movement like Ezreal's blink or Caitlyn's net, because the root means you can't cast them to begin with. When people jump at you from the wrong side, then go ult-flash to send you in the desired direction, it's fool-proof because the root means they won't be able to flash in anticipation of yours to mess up your kick (they can still qss-flash during the knock-back tho).
Does League look different or have different FOV at different aspect ratios? Main reason I am asking is cause I will be sometimes be playing on a Macbook Air (16:10) and slmetimes on my desktop monitor (16). I dont mind playing windowed mode to keep it consistent but is there actually a difference?
Google results are mostly from a few years ago so they could be outdated.
I assumed that League has a standard FOV but my first impression that I got once I started a custom game to test settings was that my champion was huge compared to the videos I was watching.
On January 08 2017 16:28 Reson wrote: Does League look different or have different FOV at different aspect ratios? Main reason I am asking is cause I will be sometimes be playing on a Macbook Air (16:10) and slmetimes on my desktop monitor (16). I dont mind playing windowed mode to keep it consistent but is there actually a difference?
Google results are mostly from a few years ago so they could be outdated.
I assumed that League has a standard FOV but my first impression that I got once I started a custom game to test settings was that my champion was huge compared to the videos I was watching.
Higher resolution = higher FOV iirc. Not sure, always played League on max settings.
On January 08 2017 05:56 Slusher wrote: The reason you are confused is because there is a hole in vi's ult where you aren't CC'd between the charge and when you get picked up.
That and Vi isn't CC immune for the entire duration, it's in the skill description that the immunity only holds during the charge so there's a window to Condemn/Trist ult and such. It was mentioned in some AMA about Vi around her release as a way enable counterplay.
On January 08 2017 16:28 Reson wrote: Does League look different or have different FOV at different aspect ratios? Main reason I am asking is cause I will be sometimes be playing on a Macbook Air (16:10) and slmetimes on my desktop monitor (16). I dont mind playing windowed mode to keep it consistent but is there actually a difference?
Google results are mostly from a few years ago so they could be outdated.
I assumed that League has a standard FOV but my first impression that I got once I started a custom game to test settings was that my champion was huge compared to the videos I was watching.
The wider the format, the more you can see of the map. There's actually some pretty funny videos out there where people mess with their ini file to have crazy wide resolutions and see tons of the map.
On January 07 2017 08:57 GrandInquisitor wrote: Is Flash buffering the mechanic where, you issue a command on a target out of range, and then as your character paths to the target, you flash into range and the command instantly fires?
Two more general mechanics question. 1) What disjoints attacks? What disjoint spells? For example I assume Flash will disjoint projectiles. Do all of a certain type of abilities disjoint or only certain specific ones? Are there any activable items (that disjoint or at all)?
In case disjoint isnt a common League term, I am referring dodging an attack, spell, projectile that is homing on you. Of course you can just side step skill shots.
2) What does fog of war affect? Is Bush just treated the same as fog? For example if I attack target someone and I am walking towards them then they go into fog of war, does my champion just stop? Can fog disjoint cast animations? For example enemy cast target spell on me and during cast animation I go into fog, do they still cast that spell?
*target spell as opposed to skill shot spell
only spells that make you untargettable disjoint these days. vlad pool, fizz playful trickster and shaco ulty are the ones i know of that still exist.
flash used to disjoint everything but that was removed like 5 years ago
for the second question, if someone runs outside of line of sight after you targeted them you just stop moving. some projectiles from spells do disjoint themselves but every instance i can think of was considered a bugged interaction and fixed
On January 08 2017 04:29 Reson wrote: Wait so
Can't really find a video of flashing while stunned; two ways to do it; start animation before the stun, and second is if you buffer flash during one CC, you will flash before a chained CC is applied.
Does that mean that League has queuing while CCed? Can I input move commands or abilities commands or is this a Flash specific thing? I was led to believe that this wasnt a thing in League.
Starting flash animation before stun will result in shorten animation flash occuring right after CC duration?
Edit: The last video is really good.
you can't flash CCs anymore but some other movement spells will still go off even in the CC'd state if timed right. hecarim ult, shyv ult, trist W, ez E, 2nd part of vi ult
What do you max second on Vi, W or E? It seems like most people max E second. But I always thought it was W, since I would have guessed that the increased max % HP damage is better for her burst. 1.5% max hp vs 20 damage means the breakeven is at around ~1300 health.
W was always stronger number-wise, especially because her build path would include CDR so that you wouldn't lose much from E staying at level 1. I don't know how she's built now nor if it includes CDR tho, but if you're still trying to blow people up in one go W > E.
On January 09 2017 12:37 Alaric wrote: W was always stronger number-wise, especially because her build path would include CDR so that you wouldn't lose much from E staying at level 1. I don't know how she's built now nor if it includes CDR tho, but if you're still trying to blow people up in one go W > E.
Triforce alone is 20% cdr which is as core as it gets. Warrior enchant is another 10% cdr. You can get last 10% from ghostblade or maw.
I think the biggest reason is you clear slightly faster with E 2nd and are more likely to have stacks when you fight. The %-damage increase is nearly insignificant early anyway. From a mini/max perspective you should at some point probably start putting points into W before maxing E completely.
DOA and Monte just tweeted they are no longer casting LCK. This means both of Lol's iconic casting duos will not be casting the game. Hopefully some new talent crops up because casters really do improve the game exp, and Achilles+Papa or LS+Rapid is not a product I can have a whole season of.
On January 10 2017 16:48 GolemMadness wrote: People really hate playing ADC these days. I usually play fill, and in my last 10 games, I've gotten ADC in 5 of them.
Well, last night I played sivir, was decently farmed and had to kill a 500 HP(sub 1/4 health) poppy midgame. Now, granted I was sitting on 2k gold, but it took me 5 autos and a full skill rotation to kill her. Sure, once you hit 4-5 items as an ADC you still do oodles and oodles of damage, but most other champs can do the same thing, while doing WAAAAY more in the early and midgame.
On January 10 2017 16:48 GolemMadness wrote: People really hate playing ADC these days. I usually play fill, and in my last 10 games, I've gotten ADC in 5 of them.
yeah, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't fear that when autofill kicks in, I'll get support, but ADC. Most of the time is ADC, however, the good part is that people don;t get mad when I play bruisers, mages bot, they understand :-)
only good ap bot is ziggs imo people who pick bruisers or other champions are griefers, pretty much anything can work in soloQ so i usually dont say a word but its rage inducing when i see my botlane pick something stupid when enemy team has poppy/mao and we clerarly will lack sustained dmg
On January 10 2017 16:48 GolemMadness wrote: People really hate playing ADC these days. I usually play fill, and in my last 10 games, I've gotten ADC in 5 of them.
If that's not a statement on the community's feeling on the issue, I don't know what is.
On January 10 2017 15:58 cLutZ wrote: DOA and Monte just tweeted they are no longer casting LCK. This means both of Lol's iconic casting duos will not be casting the game. Hopefully some new talent crops up because casters really do improve the game exp, and Achilles+Papa or LS+Rapid is not a product I can have a whole season of.
Well ... at least Achilles + PapaSmithy is good.
I think DOA/Monte are good casters but Monte brought so much drama around himself that it was kind of distracting. Can you think of any traditional sports announcer that is so attention-seeking? Sure, there are famous announcers, but Marv Albert, Howard Cosell, Al Michaels, Ray Hudson, Martin Tyler, etc. etc. are famous because of great games they casted, not because any of them sought the spotlight for themselves.
At the end of the day, the caster isn't supposed to be the main attraction - the players are. And I don't think Monte really understood that.
^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me.
On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote: ^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me.
Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work.
Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less?
It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
DoA and Monte were good casters 2 years ago, but I think the quality of their casting has gone down a lot since then although I guess some of it can be blamed on format changes.
On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote: ^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me.
Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work.
Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less?
It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
To be fair, the MLB didn't try to get commentators for the World Series and pay them like ass. Nor did those commentators own a team that they were forced to sell for (valid or invalid) reasons. Has Monte's interaction with Riot over the last year been ugly? Yeah, but given comparisons, I believe the situations he's been put in are unprecedented.
I'd rather play the Korean stream on SPOTV days than give an LS stream a viewer, even if it's on mute.
On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote: ^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me.
Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work.
Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less?
It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
I agree with this for sure, but I think its related to how much money real broadcasters make and their lack of reddit engagement. A lot of the younger ones put people on blast on Twitter (but usually other broadcasters or radio commentators instead of one fan). I think Monte is a bitter man who's time in lol is probably due (also probably not the best reports manager out there), but its sad to see this last stone turn. Also its sad because Korean Lol is now a must-mute for me, along with CN-Lol and like 60% of LCS casts.
On January 11 2017 00:59 cLutZ wrote: ^ Im fairly certain a lot of those are the PBP guys, while you get goofs like Madden, Gruden, etc in the Monte role quite often. Also, I don't really watch baseball, but those broadcasts are often very much about Harey Carey or Vin Scully and LOL is a bit like baseball where nothing happens for 10 minutes, then something happens for 10 seconds, and you end up having to fill the 9:50 with your own personality...which is why Achilles and Papasmithy are so boring to me.
Let me put it this way. Pick any color commentator from a traditional sport and search that sport's reddit for their name. You get a bunch of results related to their commentating. Like, what do you think of Cris Collinsworth's casting? Man this was a funny thing Gruden said. In other words, even color commentators tend to avoid the spotlight and instead focus on their work, and so when people talk about them it's usually in the context of their commentating work.
Now search Monte on the League subreddit. You get a lot of Monte drama. Will he be at Worlds? Will he move to Overwatch? What did he say about the League system being a total joke? What savage twitter burn did he unleash on Riot this week? What's his spicy take on the hottest memes? Does he deserve more respect from the community or less?
It's just so unbecoming. He makes some good points, but at the end of the day I'm not watching LCK for Monte, I'm watching LCK for Faker. LCK is the only reason anyone knows who Monte is, and he seems to have forgotten that. And despite all the posturing proclamations on Reddit, I seriously doubt more than 10% of his audience is going to shift with him to Overwatch, because not even Monte+DoA can make watching that clusterfuck of a esport tolerable, and even if god forbid Riot makes LS the sole caster for every League game for the rest of eternity I'll still watch it, just on mute.
To be fair, the MLB didn't try to get commentators for the World Series and pay them like ass. Nor did those commentators own a team that they were forced to sell for (valid or invalid) reasons. Has Monte's interaction with Riot over the last year been ugly? Yeah, but given comparisons, I believe the situations he's been put in are unprecedented.
It's interesting you say "situations he's been put in" whereas I think of those situations as things he's brought on himself. Nobody made him co-own a team with the shadiest man in LCS history, a guy who straight up lied about being a lawyer. Nobody then made him mislead and/or deceive Riot about his team's ownership situation. Caster salaries is the only thing that you could argue was thrust upon him as opposed to something he started, but even there no one else thought they were underpaid, and no one else apparently demanded more money except for him. And man, let me tell you, it is not a good look to be the only one demanding a raise from your boss while simultaneously trashing them and insinuating that they broke the law.
I'd rather play the Korean stream on SPOTV days than give an LS stream a viewer, even if it's on mute.
Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote: Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote: Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet.
they need to make a modern game similar to Sony's infantry game. Probably the only war/shooting game i've ever enjoyed. Isometric seemed to work really well for a war/shooting game. First person is just meh
On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote: Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet.
Overwatch cannot be done as a spectator esport. There are innumerable reasons why. These are the first five I thought of off the top of my head but I'm sure smarter people can come up with more:
1. The pace of the game is remarkably fast even for a FPS. It is way twitchier than CS:GO. This is especially true for melee champions. Good luck spectating a first person Genji and comprehending anything - this isn't because of lack of game knowledge, it's that a spectator has absolutely no chance of being able to develop a macro view of where everyone is at the speed at which Overwatch plays, unless you literally lock yourself to a single person for the entire game.
2. There are too many things to track. In TF2, the only big picture game knowledge was each Medic's Uber %age. That number exists for every player in Overwatch in the form of their ult meter. To be sure, it makes playing the game more fun, but it makes spectating the game even harder because now you're essentially tracking 12 Ubercharges instead of 2. Even if you could track them all, it hurts the pacing of the game. In TF2, the rhythm of the game is decided by the relative Uber timings. That rhythm is impossibly more complex in Overwatch.
3. The levels are designed to make third-person spectating even worse. Compare something like cp_badlands and cp_granary, where a third-person view often shows you the entire battlefield, to Nepal and Lijiang Tower, where a third-person view shows you almost nothing beyond the walls.
4. There are too many people and not enough clearly-defined roles. League has five players, each with sharply-defined clear roles, and you get to watch 1v1 and 2v2 duels for the first part of the game to build up to the grand finale teamfights. You have storylines coming into those fights - Blue's mid is ahead but Red's ADC is about to take off. And even then in a chaotic teamfight it's often hard to follow what's going on. Watching Overwatch is like watching only the clusterfuck teamfights of League over and over and over again, without any clearly defined roles for any player like in League.
5. There is no clear winning/losing team. The cart is pushed to X at 2:00. Is that good or bad?
Trying to set my bias aside I think the problem with overwatch vs counter strike is all of the noisiest elements on screen in CS are friendly fire. I.e. It doesn't actually matter that much who's smoking. When 2 Zaria mei adults are on screen (which unfortunately at the time of apex group stage was the meta to respond ult for ult) it just becomes a shit show.
On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote: Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet.
Overwatch cannot be done as a spectator esport. There are innumerable reasons why. These are the first five I thought of off the top of my head but I'm sure smarter people can come up with more:
1. The pace of the game is remarkably fast even for a FPS. It is way twitchier than CS:GO. This is especially true for melee champions. Good luck spectating a first person Genji and comprehending anything - this isn't because of lack of game knowledge, it's that a spectator has absolutely no chance of being able to develop a macro view of where everyone is at the speed at which Overwatch plays, unless you literally lock yourself to a single person for the entire game.
2. There are too many things to track. In TF2, the only big picture game knowledge was each Medic's Uber %age. That number exists for every player in Overwatch in the form of their ult meter. To be sure, it makes playing the game more fun, but it makes spectating the game even harder because now you're essentially tracking 12 Ubercharges instead of 2. Even if you could track them all, it hurts the pacing of the game. In TF2, the rhythm of the game is decided by the relative Uber timings. That rhythm is impossibly more complex in Overwatch.
3. The levels are designed to make third-person spectating even worse. Compare something like cp_badlands and cp_granary, where a third-person view often shows you the entire battlefield, to Nepal and Lijiang Tower, where a third-person view shows you almost nothing beyond the walls.
4. There are too many people and not enough clearly-defined roles. League has five players, each with sharply-defined clear roles, and you get to watch 1v1 and 2v2 duels for the first part of the game to build up to the grand finale teamfights. You have storylines coming into those fights - Blue's mid is ahead but Red's ADC is about to take off. And even then in a chaotic teamfight it's often hard to follow what's going on. Watching Overwatch is like watching only the clusterfuck teamfights of League over and over and over again, without any clearly defined roles for any player like in League.
5. There is no clear winning/losing team. The cart is pushed to X at 2:00. Is that good or bad?
This was a good read for someone with little to no FPS background. Now why is CS good (in terms of viewership) compared to OW? General question out there. I tried asking this on discord earlier today but didn't get much.
I tried to watch an Apex Highlight reel today and it seemed ok for the most part. Very shiny with lots of bright lights but I chalk it off to me not knowing much about the game. People said League looked like fireworks a few years ago and I suppose if you don't know much about League and what each champion does, then yeah, it's just color works.
On January 11 2017 02:59 Slusher wrote: Personally I really like monte and Doa tandem, I had thought enough to watch them cast any game but apex season 1 was pretty awful for me. Now I personally have always had a disconnect with fps like I don't like counter strike, which is clearly popular. So maybe it's not overwatch being terrible to watch and just a personal problem but I am disappointed to not be able to watch monte/dps combo anymore.
Hopefully Doa continues to do hearthstone on the side
I constantly hear that OW is absolutely terrible to spectate from an esports perspective.
I think it is, but I also find all FPS to be terrible. IMO all these games should, in the future, if they want to be esports, use "eye in the sky" tactical views just like an NFL game. In some ways OW is easier for me to follow than CSGO because peeking, arbitrary jumping, etc, isn't present but CSGO has the advantage of comfort with the maps and a more realistic color pallet.
Overwatch cannot be done as a spectator esport. There are innumerable reasons why. These are the first five I thought of off the top of my head but I'm sure smarter people can come up with more:
1. The pace of the game is remarkably fast even for a FPS. It is way twitchier than CS:GO. This is especially true for melee champions. Good luck spectating a first person Genji and comprehending anything - this isn't because of lack of game knowledge, it's that a spectator has absolutely no chance of being able to develop a macro view of where everyone is at the speed at which Overwatch plays, unless you literally lock yourself to a single person for the entire game.
2. There are too many things to track. In TF2, the only big picture game knowledge was each Medic's Uber %age. That number exists for every player in Overwatch in the form of their ult meter. To be sure, it makes playing the game more fun, but it makes spectating the game even harder because now you're essentially tracking 12 Ubercharges instead of 2. Even if you could track them all, it hurts the pacing of the game. In TF2, the rhythm of the game is decided by the relative Uber timings. That rhythm is impossibly more complex in Overwatch.
3. The levels are designed to make third-person spectating even worse. Compare something like cp_badlands and cp_granary, where a third-person view often shows you the entire battlefield, to Nepal and Lijiang Tower, where a third-person view shows you almost nothing beyond the walls.
4. There are too many people and not enough clearly-defined roles. League has five players, each with sharply-defined clear roles, and you get to watch 1v1 and 2v2 duels for the first part of the game to build up to the grand finale teamfights. You have storylines coming into those fights - Blue's mid is ahead but Red's ADC is about to take off. And even then in a chaotic teamfight it's often hard to follow what's going on. Watching Overwatch is like watching only the clusterfuck teamfights of League over and over and over again, without any clearly defined roles for any player like in League.
5. There is no clear winning/losing team. The cart is pushed to X at 2:00. Is that good or bad?
This was a good read for someone with little to no FPS background. Now why is CS good (in terms of viewership) compared to OW? General question out there. I tried asking this on discord earlier today but didn't get much.
I don't play CS:GO much so I honestly don't know, but I'll hazard some guesses:
1) crate farmers, 2) slower pace, 3) dedicated community with higher conversion % to esports, 4) very tactical so FP view is better, 5) a long history of esports competition, 6) fewer full-on teamfights and more skirmishing, 7) fewer emphasis on "ults" means greater mechanical outplay potential.
I tried to watch an Apex Highlight reel today and it seemed ok for the most part. Very shiny with lots of bright lights but I chalk it off to me not knowing much about the game. People said League looked like fireworks a few years ago and I suppose if you don't know much about League and what each champion does, then yeah, it's just color works.
Difference is that in League you can see the entire teamfight. You can't in OW. I know what every ability in OW is, what it looks like, what it sounds like, but in a big teamfight I have no idea what is going on because you need to construct a mental map of where everyone is positioned. That comes easily when you are playing the game, but not if you just switched to that guy's POV a second ago.
EDIT: One other thing I thought of. Character balance is fucking hard in OW. Think about how hard it is in League to balance Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, and Yasuo for pro play and Bronze IV. Now restrict yourself to only a dozen characters, so any character imbalance is tremendously amplified. You can live with Lee Sin having a 40% winrate in Bronze because those players can play anybody they want. You can't do that with Genji because that's basically eliminating an entire playstyle from the game.
E - Tempest THE BLIND MONK No longer reveals invisible targets. ONLY YOU Now only reveals targets damaged by Tempest (no longer reveals nearby allies of damaged targets)
guess true invisibility has no counterplay anymore ...
EPT
). I dont mind playing windowed mode to keep it consistent but is there actually a difference? 
