|
On January 05 2017 03:12 Slusher wrote:
I guess we should just all erase ekko from our memories guys since 90% of his pro play was unintended
XD
dev intention is irrelevant
Riot sure is trying to by tinkering with his kit while not outright nuking him into the ground like he deserves.
Developer intention wasn't to make ADc the most boring, restrictive, hamstrung position in the game, yet it is.
|
On January 05 2017 03:43 M2 wrote:
as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play
Its the opposite though. In most games only one (sometimes fewer for certain champs) does the majority of thier work with autos. Rarely is there a melle range auto-attacker in meta (like Olaf), its usually 4 spellcasters and one autoer. It's not the ranged AD's fault that riot doesn't understand autoattack balance.
|
On January 05 2017 03:55 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 03:43 M2 wrote:
as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play Its the opposite though. In most games only one (sometimes fewer for certain champs) does the majority of thier work with autos. Rarely is there a melle range auto-attacker in meta (like Olaf), its usually 4 spellcasters and one autoer. It's not the ranged AD's fault that riot doesn't understand autoattack balance.
Depends how you classify the classes though, if you divide them to autoattackers and casters then you are right we have them 4 to 1 mostly, but if we divide them as bruisers, tanks, assassins, adcs etc. then my point stays
|
On January 05 2017 04:32 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 03:55 cLutZ wrote:On January 05 2017 03:43 M2 wrote:
as I said earlier I think its a design flow if one class of champs must be in every game. There is no other class like that. So, usually the whole class need some kind of adjustments not particular champs like in any other class
We may have tank meta, bruiser meta, mage meta, assassin meta, even adc meta, but there is at least one adc in each and every game in every elo from bronze to pro play Its the opposite though. In most games only one (sometimes fewer for certain champs) does the majority of thier work with autos. Rarely is there a melle range auto-attacker in meta (like Olaf), its usually 4 spellcasters and one autoer. It's not the ranged AD's fault that riot doesn't understand autoattack balance. Depends how you classify the classes though, if you divide them to autoattackers and casters then you are right we have them 4 to 1 mostly, but if we divide them as bruisers, tanks, assassins, adcs etc. then my point stays
But mine is more descriptive because to win you must auto down turrets. Since auto-attacking is both necessary to win, and hugely disfavored as a damage source in most situations, it is shoehorned into teams at the ADC slot. This also has the benefit of diversifying damage types because there are more AP casters than AD ones.
The fact that Ziggs is a primary replacement for ADCs right now (and Morde with dragon has been) is perfectly in line with the paradigm of tower taking as the defining feature of the role.
|
ziggs in adc (pos) is so hard to talk about seriously without someone going derailing into memes. Is it surprising he's legit choice for adc (role)? Sure. Is he straight up superior to Jihn twitch Vayne and cait? No. The most ironic part about the ziggs hype to me is he doesn't even really have different weaknesses than traditional marksmen he just destroys towers faster than they already do.
Qt one of the main ppl to spread the word on shiphtur's meta will even tell you it's mid tier at best when he isn't meming
|
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2017/01/13-pbe-update.html
Show nested quote + Jungle
Non-buff camps now reward about 25% less XP on the First Clear*
Experience Changes
[NOTE: When comparing values, remember big camps all get +50 bonus experience from jungle items]
Blue - XP lowered to 200 from 210
Red - XP lowered to 200 from 210
Gromp - XP lowered to 200 from 210
Little Krugs - XP lowered to 35 from 45
Mini Krugs - XP lowered 7 from 15
Crimson Raptor- XP increased to 20 from 15
Small Raptors - XP increased to 35 from 15.
jungle exp changes everyone who cant do early chickens is royally fucked gl hitting lvl5/6 in reasonable time
|
hmm time to play skarner again
|
Inc reksai first pick ban.
|
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On January 05 2017 02:16 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 23:50 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 04 2017 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote:
name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items. Here we go... Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot. All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners. Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense. You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal. But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked. There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc. Reworked BT is bad. Maw hasn't been for ADC for a long time. Ghostblade/Cleaver/Duskblade was a very limited use thing for items that Riot didn't want them to have anyway, and LW upgrades aren't ADC exclusive. So if we look over the "ADC list", most are either not ADC specific or were never intended for ADC usage anyway.
First, by your definition no role has more than a handful of role-specific items, since Sightstone isn't support-specific either. Second, you don't think LW upgrades are ADC exclusive? Really? What was the last time a non-ADC built Lord Dominik's? Maybe an insanely fed Gangplank or Riven?
|
On January 05 2017 07:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2017 02:16 Gahlo wrote:On January 04 2017 23:50 GrandInquisitor wrote:On January 04 2017 15:08 Gahlo wrote:On January 04 2017 14:09 Slusher wrote:
name one set of "new toys" that was more elaborate than the switch to pd/shiv/rfc not saying it's mind blowing, or that it didn't go thru phases of 1 just straight up being the best reguardless of champ/matchup, but to say prople have gotten "new toys" more elaborate than that is just forgetting how small of changes riot ever makes to items. Here we go... Jungle items, Support items, Tear transforms, Ardent Censer, the different flavors of Grail, Banner, Deadman's, Death's Dance, Duskblade, Edge of Night, Liandry's, Sightstone and its support item mesh upgrades, GLP-800, Protobelt, Iceborne, Luden's, Crucible, Redemption, the Hydras, Righteous Glory, Sterak's, new Cleaver, less new Ghostblade, Zeke's, Zz'rot. All of that happened and in the span of things, ADC gained 2 Zeal upgrades, BORK, Reaver, and shares Scimitar with top laners. Yeah, so, with respect to any particular role, that seems about equal? Like most supports aren't rushing Death's Dance into Protobelt. Supports got Ardent Censer, Banner, Sightstone, Crucible, Redemption, Zz'rot, and Zeke's. ADC's got PD, RFC, BotRK, ER, reworked BT, Maw, Scimitar, Ghostblade (for a while), Duskblade (for a while), Cleaver (for a while), Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's Regards, a viable Runaan's, etc. So your "number of new toys" argument makes negative sense. You're correct that ADCs don't have a lot of interesting decisionmaking with respect to their items like mids do. Karthus can be built full glass cannon with Rabadon's and Void Staff or he could be built more utility with Rylai's and Zhonya's. You can't really do that with Jinx - she has a mathematically optimal DPS build and that's that. The closest we have is something like Blue Build Ezreal vs Trinity Force Ezreal. But I don't really see how that is going to be fixed. Riot could add fifteen new ADC items and in two weeks the streamers are going to say "this is the optimal build" and everyone will copy it. And that's fine! When you play ADC you're signing up to be the maximum DPS carry for the team. You aren't signing up for a role with a lot of flexibility. Supports went through like three seasons with the exact same build on every single champion. If you design an ADC item that has X damage and then another that has X-2 damage but Utility Function Y, everyone's gonna pick the former unless Y is completely broken. So the solution is then to have a bunch of X-2 + Y items, except that then other roles' itemization gets completely fucked. There's only one true solution to this problem, and that's to have different stores for each role. I can't imagine this happening out of a distaste for "enforcing the meta", but the lane/role meta has been what it is for years now. We already live in a de facto enforced meta. If Riot actually breaks apart the roles, then you could do a lot of interesting things like rebalance summoner spells, improve itemization, have separate ranked ratings, etc. etc. Reworked BT is bad. Maw hasn't been for ADC for a long time. Ghostblade/Cleaver/Duskblade was a very limited use thing for items that Riot didn't want them to have anyway, and LW upgrades aren't ADC exclusive. So if we look over the "ADC list", most are either not ADC specific or were never intended for ADC usage anyway. First, by your definition no role has more than a handful of role-specific items, since Sightstone isn't support-specific either. Second, you don't think LW upgrades are ADC exclusive? Really? What was the last time a non-ADC built Lord Dominik's? Maybe an insanely fed Gangplank or Riven?
Sightstone was designed specifically as a support item. LDR has GP, Riven, and Jayce as 7-9th on champions that buy it, because unlike champions like Fiora, they have to go overboard on offensive itemization to do their job.
|
I'm actually on GI's side when it comes to there being a lot more ADC items, however, I think almost none of them are ones ADC players asked for. The three zeal upgrades strike me as a choice no one wants to make, as does the LW upgrade choice. A Zhonyas clone, itemized Lee Sin kick, BKB, MLB, Clockwork "Power Cogs", spellshield active, etc are examples of what ADCs have asked for in items, not choosing between range, AOE, or movespeed.
|
-- Nuked --
User was banned for this post.
|
Spell shield active is in the game. Not sure what MLB is?? Mkb? I mean that's kinda last whisper for all intents. And if a bkb item is ever added and is ranged only I couldn't disagree more. So this list is pretty weird outside of hurricane pike or ad hourglass.
I do like the idea of an item like pike being added though
|
On January 05 2017 08:55 Slusher wrote:
Spell shield active is in the game. Not sure what MLB is?? Mkb? I mean that's kinda last whisper for all intents. And if a bkb item is ever added and is ranged only I couldn't disagree more. So this list is pretty weird outside of hurricane pike or ad hourglass.
I do like the idea of an item like pike being added though
Yeah, but who builds Edge of Night on ADCs?
|
The item has really good stats unless your going for multiplicative scaling. Aka being good at a point in the game where adc isn't currently struggling.
|
On January 05 2017 08:55 Slusher wrote:
Spell shield active is in the game. Not sure what MLB is?? Mkb? I mean that's kinda last whisper for all intents. And if a bkb item is ever added and is ranged only I couldn't disagree more. So this list is pretty weird outside of hurricane pike or ad hourglass.
I do like the idea of an item like pike being added though
I meant MKB (thanks autocorrect) for the ministun. The spellshield active currently is channeled, and thus mostly useless for an AD who wants to use it to block a Syndra W. Pike would certainly be in their interest (similar to my Lee sin kick item).
|
|
|
|
|
New personal record, 80 (meaningful) wards in one game. 1h11m of pure fiesta.
|
Biggest problem I have when I'm ADC right now is the 2-4 item period (counting boots) where I feel like the tickle-monster against any champion that isn't a lvl 2 Zyra maxing W first.
Like, I can dominate a lane and come out with 3 kills and 125CS at 15 minutes, and along comes some 0/2 Shyvanna and we can't kill her 3v1 because after 10 seconds of autos and spell-casts, she still has 3/4 health and picks up a triple kill after blicking me.
I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think that the situation I described accurately captures the feeling of playing ADC right now. Fucked if I know what the problem actually is, nevermind the solution, but ADC feels terrible to play right now in the 10-30 minute range of any game I play.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
