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If you've played around on the new patch and have some secret TL-op builds we should try out, post about them here! http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-strategy/498168-patch-522-what-is-marksman-gameplay-discussion | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On November 20 2015 14:55 Ketara wrote: Pretty much all the top winrate champs are top lane tanks right? Idk bout winrates, but from my anecdotal evidence AD melee champs like Jax, Irelia, Trynd, Xin, and Yasuo, (along with brand, who is op as fuck) just get fed no matter what and shit on everyone. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 20 2015 14:49 IMoperator wrote: Vayne and Lucian feel exactly the same to me, Cait feels a little better but still has a terrible midgame because of awkward item builds. ?!? Vayne gets to go shiv -> firecannon as her first two items. That's completely insane burst on the first auto. Plus her w got a huge buff. Lucian can go essence reaver into zeal and have 30% cdr, and a bunch of crit off two items, then go ie and golden. As for why tanks have a higher winrate, that's just because not everyone are playing the op tops yet, but everyone is playing the op adc's. If cait/vayne/mf/lucian/graves are always laning against each other, they'll almost never get above 52-53% winrate, purely because for one to win the other has to lose. Meanwhile things like mundo/malphite/jax/shen get to lane against people still playing shit like darius/vlad/aatrox/riven/whatever, so they don't have that limiter. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:10 killerdog wrote: ?!? Vayne gets to go shiv -> firecannon as her first two items. That's completely insane burst on the first auto. Plus her w got a huge buff. Lucian can go essence reaver into zeal and have 30% cdr, and a bunch of crit off two items, then go ie and golden. As for why tanks have a higher winrate, that's just because not everyone are playing the op tops yet, but everyone is playing the op adc's. If cait/vayne/mf/lucian/graves are always laning against each other, they'll almost never get above 52-53% winrate, purely because for one to win the other has to lose. Meanwhile things like mundo/malphite/jax/shen get to lane against people still playing shit like darius/vlad/aatrox/riven/whatever, so they don't have that limiter. Vayne's autos do shit for damage though, so unless you get super fed you're going to be critting for no damage after that first proc. Lucian feels about the same to me, haven't noticed anything that special yet. You're kinda forced to sell essence reaver later but it's pretty good for the early/mid game i guess. actually I want to add that in general it feels like adc's do less damage because of lack of ad, not just vayne | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:21 krndandaman wrote: whats sad is that riot tried to make triforce as good as possible for lucian but he still doesn't get it who the hell gets triforce anymore i've seen even jax,irelia skip at times. hell today I saw a corki skip it and go straight for the double zeal items i feel like they should just revert the triforce changes It wouldn't matter much for jax, the other options are so good right now. And cheap. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:27 IMoperator wrote: Vayne's autos do shit for damage though, so unless you get super fed you're going to be critting for no damage after that first proc. Lucian feels about the same to me, haven't noticed anything that special yet. You're kinda forced to sell essence reaver later but it's pretty good for the early/mid game i guess. actually I want to add that in general it feels like adc's do less damage because of lack of ad, not just vayne If vayne just ults her autos hit like a truck, and she gets way more autos then she used to. Comparing her damage with a typical build pre patch to now and she just does straight up more in autos, + more shiv procs + more crit + more attack speed + her w's are stronger. The only thing she's lost from her old build path is the life steal, but i'd trade that any day for the ability to initiate any trade/all in with a 600+ damage AA from 700 range. Like, once she has her two item core, she either chunks you for half your hp in one auto from 800 range, or she q auto auto e's you for 80% of your hp (or half a full tanks hp) or she just ults, and 3 shots you. And why would lucian sell essence reaver later, he's getting 30% cdr from one item that does a ton of damage, has crit AND restores all his mana. Besides 95%+ of games are decided within 20-25 minutes right now anyway. I've had probably one game in the last 30 that was still close when adc's were finishing their 4th item, let alone full build. Like the play patterns of adc's have changed a little, and people are still working out when to buy last whisper and whatnot, but vaynes/lucians/whatever are definitely just straight up way stronger then they were pre patch. The only adc's who suffered are the ones like jinx (who really needs 2-3 items to get going) or the ones they gutted like kog'maw. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:21 krndandaman wrote: whats sad is that riot tried to make triforce as good as possible for lucian but he still doesn't get it who the hell gets triforce anymore i've seen even jax,irelia skip at times. hell today I saw a corki skip it and go straight for the double zeal items i feel like they should just revert the triforce changes Triforce is that item you get after maxing 6 items and selling your boots for something better. Thats like...less than 1% of the games? TF isnt a bad item, its just that when competing with ER as a first item ER is so broken strong, and compared to other zeal items its too expensive. I never liked TF as first item for lucian. Damage from BF sword allowed you to choose to simply poke with Q through minions or trade damage with passive, while phage damage is lackluster, and phage+sheen forces you to trade for damage with passive that felt a lot less efficient than a BF sword. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 20 2015 19:14 padfoota wrote: Triforce is that item you get after maxing 6 items and selling your boots for something better. Thats like...less than 1% of the games? TF isnt a bad item, its just that when competing with ER as a first item ER is so broken strong, and compared to other zeal items its too expensive. I've seen quite a few people go ER -> Triforce, 40% cdr off two items, with a sheen too. Feels like with the strength of tanks right now even people like lucian really need to go ER -> zeal item -> IE to have relevancy in the midgame though :s | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On November 20 2015 19:22 killerdog wrote: I've seen quite a few people go ER -> Triforce, 40% cdr off two items, with a sheen too. Feels like with the strength of tanks right now even people like lucian really need to go ER -> zeal item -> IE to have relevancy in the midgame though :s I definitely prefer ER -> TF. But it feels like if you cannot get this by 23 minutes there are basically better choices. On November 20 2015 19:22 Ketara wrote: Since I've spent the last two weeks tunnel visioning on Lux math, somebody should explain the new ADC items to me. Kinda hard. Starting with the first item IE vs ER vs BotRK - IE got nerfed a bit, dropping to 65 AD, ER got a massive buff, gaining crit, 10% cdr and up to 20% extra cdr from other sources of crit, so total of 30% from this item (1:1 crit cdr ratio,) BotRK got nerfed a bit Zeal based items - Zeal by itself gives 20% crit now, so ER + zeal = 30% Statik Shiv - 30% crit now, same passive, buy this for burst damage/pushing power Phantom Dancer - Gained a new passive UNIQUE – LAMENT: The last champion hit deals 12% less damage to you (ends after 10 seconds of not hitting). Useful for split pushing + dueling power. TF - gained another 10% crit and 10% CDR, but I think the AD was dropped to 25 (was it 30 before?), and AP removed Rapid Fire Cannon - similar to Shiv, but you gain a increased range charged shot - great for poking towers and long range poking champions. Basically a Shiv gives percentage increased range that does extra damage on the lightning but doesnt bounce once you charge it up. Since the range increase is percentage based, it is unnoticeable on melee champs Runaan's Hurricane - Joins this list as now it builds off Zeal, gives 30% crit, the split projectiles also crit now. Decreased attack speed (40 now) than before. Last Whisper based - Last whisper was nerfed and split into two final upgrades Nerf as in now it only penetrates EXTRA ARMOR, while before it penetrated TOTAL ARMOR. Last whisper is now a 1300 gold item, that upgrades into two versions - one decreasing heal on the target, and the other increasing damage based on Max HP differential between the user and the target.UNIQUE – GIANT SLAYER: Grants up to +15% physical damage against enemy champions with greater maximum Health than you (+1.5% damage per 50 Health difference, maxing at 500 Health difference). Other items worth noting Ghostblade - Lost the crit, now gives a whopping 65 AD Rageblade - Is a broken item on any autoattack based championg, although I haven;t seen ADCs use it much since ER is so strong. Gains extra physical and magical damage per attack, and once charged up gains aoe damage per attack Death's Dance - new item 65ad 10% cdr with two passives - one is basically lifesteal that works on all AD damage sources - spells/skills including - Ive seen rivens go this item and responded very well to it It also serves as an interesting "tanky" UNIQUE: Stores 12% of all physical and magical damage received, and is taken as a damage over time instead, dealing one-third of the stored damage every second. Basically it helps users to not be bursted down immediately. Maw of Malmortius - Basically had the old "increased AD" passive removed and changed to the original rageblade passive - UNIQUE – LIFEGRIP: When Lifeline triggers, gain +25% Attack Speed, +10% Spell Vamp, and +10% Life Steal until out of combat. Mercurial Scimitar - gained 10% lifesteal, Comments - Some believe ADCs were buffed due to the massive variety of items to choose from, with many ADCs basically stacking CDR as ER gives a total of 30% of CDR already. Others believe ADC's are actually awkward now since IE was nerfed, forcing original hypercarries to be shoved aside in favor of caster ADC's, and the massive nerf to last whisper is actually pretty painful when playing against armor stacking champs (Rammus, Malph, top Taric (actually a fucking thing now) All in all an interesting patch for ADs What else did I miss? Oh I should probably mention that a lot of ADCs were buffed/reworked, but you should probably know this -_- Just from the top of my head - Quinn, Cait, MF, Lucian, Corki, Graves, Kog, Caster ADCs are also enjoying a nice run in mid. Varus MF Lucian etc | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On another note - I remember Azir's ulti can still push away a ragnarok'd Olaf no? Is it supposed to just pass through him -_-? | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On November 20 2015 19:25 padfoota wrote: I definitely prefer ER -> TF. But it feels like if you cannot get this by 23 minutes there are basically better choices. Kinda hard. Starting with the first item IE vs ER vs BotRK - IE got nerfed a bit, dropping to 65 AD, ER got a massive buff, gaining crit, 10% cdr and up to 20% extra cdr from other sources of crit, so total of 30% from this item (1:1 crit cdr ratio,) BotRK got nerfed a bit Nobody gets botrk first at all, and IE first is pretty bad. The starting item choices seem to be ER: on casters Shiv/Firecannon: on auto attackers, vayne goes both into ie, i've seen people like trist go shiv into ie Partial IE -> zeal -> IE: Like, bf sword + maybe pickaxe -> zeal -> ie -> shiv. Seems most common, you don't really get anything from actually finishing IE early, so it seems way more cost efficient to grab at least a zeal (I've seen bf+pickaxe -> shiv -> ie too) before finishing IE. Also hurricane is suddenly viable on pretty much everyone. It seems core on everyone from jinx to kalista 0.0 On November 20 2015 20:11 padfoota wrote: Yeah jesus christ I have to say pathing is super weird this game On another note - I remember Azir's ulti can still push away a ragnarok'd Olaf no? Is it supposed to just pass through him -_-? Don't believe it's changed. Isn't it just, Olaf can run through the first bit of the ult (where the wall is travelling and deals damage) but bounces off it after it's finished moving? | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On November 20 2015 20:14 killerdog wrote: Nobody gets botrk first at all, and IE first is pretty bad. The starting item choices seem to be ER: on casters Shiv/Firecannon: on auto attackers, vayne goes both into ie, i've seen people like trist go shiv into ie Partial IE -> zeal -> IE: Like, bf sword + maybe pickaxe -> zeal -> ie -> shiv. Seems most common, you don't really get anything from actually finishing IE early, so it seems way more cost efficient to grab at least a zeal (I've seen bf+pickaxe -> shiv -> ie too) before finishing IE. Hey botrk used to be a thing a couple weeks ago lol. I know no one gets it but Im updating the guy on items - and the massive nerf to BotRK is worth mentioning (Ok I realize I wrote "nerfed a bit"..probably should write "huge nerf"). I want to say IE first is bad, but people still argue over BF>pickaxe>zeal vs IE>zeal on cait. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/Caitlyn Actually nvm its IE rush then zeal now. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:27 IMoperator wrote: Vayne's autos do shit for damage though, so unless you get super fed you're going to be critting for no damage after that first proc. Lucian feels about the same to me, haven't noticed anything that special yet. You're kinda forced to sell essence reaver later but it's pretty good for the early/mid game i guess. actually I want to add that in general it feels like adc's do less damage because of lack of ad, not just vayne except vayne is much stronger than before like every other ad. Dont go fkn tri on lucian its garbage as any # item. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On November 20 2015 15:21 krndandaman wrote: whats sad is that riot tried to make triforce as good as possible for lucian but he still doesn't get it who the hell gets triforce anymore i've seen even jax,irelia skip at times. hell today I saw a corki skip it and go straight for the double zeal items i feel like they should just revert the triforce changes It's still better than it was before zzzz The problem is 1) people love shiny new toys on a week-old preseason patch and 2) Guinsoo's and Firecannon/Shiv are stupid. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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