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On August 13 2015 16:41 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 11:55 Purge wrote:On August 13 2015 09:25 Sonnington wrote:
Zyra's great! I think a big reason she's not played more is because she's rather boring. Unless you're playing against vegetables, the enemy can almost always avoid your E and can easily flash over it. Most of the time it's not even worth using your E since it's your only form of escape(besides ult.) So in a solo lane she's relegated to last hitting and harassing with Q. Once they get boots your Q harass is much harder to land. Then you just have to wait for FOW catch, gank, counter engage, or you have to blow your flash to land your unreliable snare. In team fights she basically destroys everything though. I wrote a long post earlier that said the same thing, but it it turned out that I lost it when I closed my browser :/ I used to main Zyra when she was Meta and honestly you could lose lane and hard carry afterwards if you didnt lose too hard. I know thats how most of my games went with her at least. Moreover she hasnt been changed in damage or control since then (outside of that brutal MS nerf, like Anivia Speed. Goddamn.), she's still as strong as she has always been. That being said I never play her now because she has the depth of a wading pool in terms of gameplay. All of her unique utility- seeds and plant gameplay - is so watered down and meaningless that just bringing her up in the list of control mages ingame lowers the level of discourse. Seed vision is hardly ever optimal, especially considering that for being free wards they last like 30 seconds and she dies if she goes to put one down and overextends doing so.An active plant is just a win more button. And her ult is so stupidly powerful that noone can fix the plants issue without serious changes to her. Or at least thats what I see. Imo she needs a Xerath Style rework. Xerath still worst rework in game. God no. I think it would be obvious that her ult's interaction with her plants would be changed if plant AI was changed.
Stiff opposition from Zilean. Absolutely terrible rework.
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I hate rework Xerath so much.
Like...
There's three poke mages with 1400 range poke and semi global ults. Xerath, Ziggs and Lux.
Pre rework Xerath each of them had a different identity, more or less.
But post rework Xerath is such a generic blob of blue "mage" goop that not only is he unoriginal, he occupies a space so perfectly between Ziggs and Lux that he makes all three of them seem generic and unoriginal. And because they're all so similar to each other, only one of them ever gets played in competitive at a time (when poke mages are played at all. I guess the best poke mage is Kogmaw now?)
Sometimes I get all annoyed about this and think of writing a pages long blog rant about how bad post rework Xerath is, but then I remember that everybody agrees and nobody would care to read it.
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Your E is super similar to Orianna's W though. His previous E was good because of the super long duration for champs like Olaf, Skarner, or initiators like Annie, etc. but I guess that's also why they changed it, because as a slow 55% for 4+ seconds can feel pretty miserable.
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On August 13 2015 17:46 Ketara wrote:
I hate rework Xerath so much.
Like...
There's three poke mages with 1400 range poke and semi global ults. Xerath, Ziggs and Lux.
Pre rework Xerath each of them had a different identity, more or less.
But post rework Xerath is such a generic blob of blue "mage" goop that not only is he unoriginal, he occupies a space so perfectly between Ziggs and Lux that he makes all three of them seem generic and unoriginal. And because they're all so similar to each other, only one of them ever gets played in competitive at a time (when poke mages are played at all. I guess the best poke mage is Kogmaw now?)
Sometimes I get all annoyed about this and think of writing a pages long blog rant about how bad post rework Xerath is, but then I remember that everybody agrees and nobody would care to read it.
I'd read it, but you'd still be preaching to the choir. To point, I am about to preach to the choir.
The three primary flaws with Xerath pre-rework were pretty simple:- Too much free penetration.
- Too much free armor.
- One-dimensional play pattern without ultimate.
Fixing the first two problems was simple, but left behind the difficult challenge of compensating Xerath for those losses while addressing problem #3.
Riot ultimately felt that they couldn't address problem #3 without replacing Xerath's old W. That wasn't necessarily wrong, but W was the lynchpin of a champion design that featured interconnected abilities. The post-rework design ended up being a mess because none of Xerath's new abilities had much to do with one another. The result is generic, and fundamentally boring (just in a completely opposite way from old Xerath).
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Well, he's never going to answer no to that question. Of course they will reconsider after a massive outrage, it doesn't mean they will do anything.
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On August 13 2015 23:20 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 17:46 Ketara wrote:
I hate rework Xerath so much.
Like...
There's three poke mages with 1400 range poke and semi global ults. Xerath, Ziggs and Lux.
Pre rework Xerath each of them had a different identity, more or less.
But post rework Xerath is such a generic blob of blue "mage" goop that not only is he unoriginal, he occupies a space so perfectly between Ziggs and Lux that he makes all three of them seem generic and unoriginal. And because they're all so similar to each other, only one of them ever gets played in competitive at a time (when poke mages are played at all. I guess the best poke mage is Kogmaw now?)
Sometimes I get all annoyed about this and think of writing a pages long blog rant about how bad post rework Xerath is, but then I remember that everybody agrees and nobody would care to read it. I'd read it, but you'd still be preaching to the choir. To point, I am about to preach to the choir. The three primary flaws with Xerath pre-rework were pretty simple: - Too much free penetration.
- Too much free armor.
- One-dimensional play pattern without ultimate.
Fixing the first two problems was simple, but left behind the difficult challenge of compensating Xerath for those losses while addressing problem #3. Riot ultimately felt that they couldn't address problem #3 without replacing Xerath's old W. That wasn't necessarily wrong, but W was the lynchpin of a champion design that featured interconnected abilities. The post-rework design ended up being a mess because none of Xerath's new abilities had much to do with one another. The result is generic, and fundamentally boring (just in a completely opposite way from old Xerath).
The readers digest version of the problem with the Xerath rework is that what made Xerath a unique champion was the self root, and the rework removed it. The ghost of the self root is still there on the ult, but by changing the ult charges to what they are, the self root is inconsequential because you only use Xeraths ult when you're so far away that the self root isn't actually impactful.
Without the self root interaction all of his abilities are really generic and unoriginal.
If you remove Xerath altogether Lux is more about assassination, burst, and has the aoe shield for a unique mechanic. Ziggs is more about sieging and pushing and has the satchel for a unique mechanic.
Rework Xerath sits right between the two with regular spells that are great for pushing and sieging and an ult that's great for assassination and burst, with zero unique mechanics to set him apart, and it turns Lux and Ziggs separate identities into a big gray area blob.
If I remade Xerath, I'd make the self root his passive, similar to Teemo passive. If he stands still for a second or two he becomes rooted and each of his abilities get some sort of buff until he moves again. He should be incentivized to stay still for long periods in teamfights/sieges so that he's actually different from other champions, namely Lux and Ziggs.
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On August 13 2015 17:34 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 16:41 JazzVortical wrote:On August 13 2015 11:55 Purge wrote:On August 13 2015 09:25 Sonnington wrote:
Zyra's great! I think a big reason she's not played more is because she's rather boring. Unless you're playing against vegetables, the enemy can almost always avoid your E and can easily flash over it. Most of the time it's not even worth using your E since it's your only form of escape(besides ult.) So in a solo lane she's relegated to last hitting and harassing with Q. Once they get boots your Q harass is much harder to land. Then you just have to wait for FOW catch, gank, counter engage, or you have to blow your flash to land your unreliable snare. In team fights she basically destroys everything though. I wrote a long post earlier that said the same thing, but it it turned out that I lost it when I closed my browser :/ I used to main Zyra when she was Meta and honestly you could lose lane and hard carry afterwards if you didnt lose too hard. I know thats how most of my games went with her at least. Moreover she hasnt been changed in damage or control since then (outside of that brutal MS nerf, like Anivia Speed. Goddamn.), she's still as strong as she has always been. That being said I never play her now because she has the depth of a wading pool in terms of gameplay. All of her unique utility- seeds and plant gameplay - is so watered down and meaningless that just bringing her up in the list of control mages ingame lowers the level of discourse. Seed vision is hardly ever optimal, especially considering that for being free wards they last like 30 seconds and she dies if she goes to put one down and overextends doing so.An active plant is just a win more button. And her ult is so stupidly powerful that noone can fix the plants issue without serious changes to her. Or at least thats what I see. Imo she needs a Xerath Style rework. Xerath still worst rework in game. God no. I think it would be obvious that her ult's interaction with her plants would be changed if plant AI was changed. Stiff opposition from Zilean. Absolutely terrible rework.
I just really want to play Zilean mid again. I absolutely loved his ult before the change but even with all that utility you need the guaranteed damage from old Q to be anywhere even close to the realm of standard mid lane damage. I have even had really good games where I felt effective and hit the vast majority of team fight Qs and the post game screen shows an incredible reliance on allies for raw DPS.
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If the bombs had more base damage Zilean would be a decent support. Being difficult to hit and dealing little damage is just a bad combination.
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On August 13 2015 23:44 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 23:20 Seuss wrote:On August 13 2015 17:46 Ketara wrote:
I hate rework Xerath so much.
Like...
There's three poke mages with 1400 range poke and semi global ults. Xerath, Ziggs and Lux.
Pre rework Xerath each of them had a different identity, more or less.
But post rework Xerath is such a generic blob of blue "mage" goop that not only is he unoriginal, he occupies a space so perfectly between Ziggs and Lux that he makes all three of them seem generic and unoriginal. And because they're all so similar to each other, only one of them ever gets played in competitive at a time (when poke mages are played at all. I guess the best poke mage is Kogmaw now?)
Sometimes I get all annoyed about this and think of writing a pages long blog rant about how bad post rework Xerath is, but then I remember that everybody agrees and nobody would care to read it. I'd read it, but you'd still be preaching to the choir. To point, I am about to preach to the choir. The three primary flaws with Xerath pre-rework were pretty simple: - Too much free penetration.
- Too much free armor.
- One-dimensional play pattern without ultimate.
Fixing the first two problems was simple, but left behind the difficult challenge of compensating Xerath for those losses while addressing problem #3. Riot ultimately felt that they couldn't address problem #3 without replacing Xerath's old W. That wasn't necessarily wrong, but W was the lynchpin of a champion design that featured interconnected abilities. The post-rework design ended up being a mess because none of Xerath's new abilities had much to do with one another. The result is generic, and fundamentally boring (just in a completely opposite way from old Xerath). If I remade Xerath, I'd make the self root his passive, similar to Teemo passive. If he stands still for a second or two he becomes rooted and each of his abilities get some sort of buff until he moves again. He should be incentivized to stay still for long periods in teamfights/sieges so that he's actually different from other champions, namely Lux and Ziggs.
I think that removes too much of the "root" concept. The windup and winddown were a very important part of W (yay siegetank), creating an opportunity to punish Xerath and also forcing thoughtful use. The Teemo-style passive seems too awkward and fluid.
A better alternative would be to make W cancelled by movement, which would allow recasting W to have a different effect (e.g. serve as another damage ability or some form of utility). From there it's just a matter of crafting a suitably thematic passive while tweaking the numbers on his old QER to account for the removal of his penetration.
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zilean mains all have outrageous winrates on him though like 66%+
so they would have to be really careful if they buffed him. His speed boost and revive are still crazy strong mechanics
olaf zilean is still dumb as fuck.
Zilean/riven is another extremely annoying one in solo q. if you thought she was slippery before with the speedbost she can just basically play god
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I agree with what you guys are saying except for the fact that self rooting is a big disadvantage. What I mean to say is, rooting yourself in League of Legends is pretty dangerous*, therefore it needs to be a pretty sick buff. So when you say, I like the root, but a free void staff is too much, I disagree.
*One of the most hilarious interactions was back when old Xerath existed, old Kass existed and if he silenced you, you couldn't unroot, lets just say the matchup was not Xerath favored.
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On August 14 2015 00:51 VayneAuthority wrote:
zilean mains all have outrageous winrates on him though like 66%+
so they would have to be really careful if they buffed him. His speed boost and revive are still crazy strong mechanics
olaf zilean is still dumb as fuck.
Zilean/riven is another extremely annoying one in solo q. if you thought she was slippery before with the speedbost she can just basically play god
http://champion.gg/champion/Zilean
I think it's closer to 51% because the Zilean sample size is so small and there's barely any increase from games 5-125.
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Free void staff was too much though because it meant it was pretty much impossible to itemize against old xerath. Sure, there's also %HP true damage for that, but at least with Fiora it's pretty conditional and Vayne is supposed to do seven billion damage anyway. There must be something else that W could give, like zed-style additional AP % (that would stack only additively with rabadon's of course).
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On August 14 2015 01:01 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 00:51 VayneAuthority wrote:
zilean mains all have outrageous winrates on him though like 66%+
so they would have to be really careful if they buffed him. His speed boost and revive are still crazy strong mechanics
olaf zilean is still dumb as fuck.
Zilean/riven is another extremely annoying one in solo q. if you thought she was slippery before with the speedbost she can just basically play god http://champion.gg/champion/ZileanI think it's closer to 51% because the Zilean sample size is so small and there's barely any increase from games 5-125.
i cant click that at work so i dont know what its taking into account but ive only seen like 5 zilean mains at D1-ish so take my statement with a grain of salt, its a very small sample size. but they all do quite well with him obv to get there.
and while we are taking about self roots what is that new parry thematically and gameplay wise? why would a deft duelist be rooted by trying to parry and it feels really shitty to use.
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It needs to be OP, you are rooting yourself, which is one of the most dangerous mechanics in the game. It's commonly accepted that ADC without dashes should theoretically do more damage than say Ezreal, this is just taking that to an extreme, if you don't make the buff ridiculous the whole concept falls apart.
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You block damage, and if people try to hard cc you you cc them instead (if you target right). It seems to lack a casting animation so you can use it reactively to absorb a cc or big skillshot, you root yourself because the point thematically is to intercept the attack then counter it rather than dodge it I guess?
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On August 14 2015 01:20 Alaric wrote:
You block damage, and if people try to hard cc you you cc them instead (if you target right). It seems to lack a casting animation so you can use it reactively to absorb a cc or big skillshot, you root yourself because the point thematically is to intercept the attack then counter it rather than dodge it I guess?
I cant speak for how fun it feels to play against, but using it feels really clunky. If she ever gets cleaned up azir style she will be pretty OP. as it is now though she is just a strong overloaded kit with shit tier usability and low numbers.
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On August 14 2015 01:16 Slusher wrote:
It needs to be OP, you are rooting yourself, which is one of the most dangerous mechanics in the game. It's commonly accepted that ADC without dashes should theoretically do more damage than say Ezreal, this is just taking that to an extreme, if you don't make the buff ridiculous the whole concept falls apart.
I agree that rooting is dangerous and requires appropriate compensation for the danger, but I think you're overstating how much compensation is needed in Xerath's case. The penetration W provided Xerath was fundamentally broken. It's simply not healthy for the game for a champion to effectively ignore 84-144 MR off roughly 4,5k in items.
I think adjusting Xerath's base damage/ratios on his other abilities (which were much lower than normal due to his excessive penetration) and giving him effectively another ability on W would be more than enough compensation.
It's important to note that while Xerath's root provided an opportunity to punish him, it was a very brief one. The animations for rooting and unrooting were 0.5 seconds each, meaning even if you moved to punish Xerath the instant he rooted you only had 1 second to reach him, otherwise he'd zoom off with his W speed boost. Some types of flash engages were good at this (e.g. Sejuani, Malphite), but that's something a good Xerath could play around.
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EPT
