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On August 12 2015 11:03 Caiada wrote:
Vel is less item-dependent than Brand. Sorc/Void/Guise is about all you need for devoted damage items in any Vel build, while Brand's best with the full Liandry's and Rylai's is core despite what anyone here says.
What a misleading comment. Sure Brand is better with Liandries/Rylai's than he is with a couple of components but he's extremely effective with nothing but flat pen, CDR and HP. Sorcs/Liandries/Giant's belt, Sorcs/Guise/Morellos and Sorcs/Rylais/Idol all cost around the same as that Velkoz build and give Brand everything he needs. From there everything is just gravy.
On August 12 2015 11:32 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 10:25 Amarok wrote:
When talking about Support Brand people tunnel too hard on end game builds/damage. While it's true he does AP Carry levels of magic damage late game, it's also not really a very helpful way to evaluate him because Supports need to be impactful with next to no items/while buying sightstone & pinks etc. It's also not helpful to compare him to meta caster supports like Annie/Nami/Janna because he doesn't offer (much) engage/disengage. What he does offer is damage, ridiculous amounts of it at all points in the game and it's not (very) item dependent like Support Lux or Velkoz. What's most surprising about him is his strength in lane albiet with some tough matchups.
He has weaknesses (weak in heavy magic comps, midgame warding is tough due to squishiness) and he might not translate well in competitive but he's an absolute beast in solo q. Brand offers huge peel and CC, his stun is a two second hard stun on a 3.6 second cd. Its really easy to use it to peel people, as you know exactly where they are going. they played Kennen support in LCK, there is no fucking way that is stronger than Brand.
We've discussed this in the Brand thread, but I don't agree with highlighting Brand's peel as a reason to pick him. I agree it's an underrated part of his kit but there are so many supports that can get multiple threats of an AP/ADC. Brand's stun has good uptime (if you itemised CDR and maxed Q) but it will only ever be single target and so many champs can do more than that.
What Brand gives you that Nami/Janna/Thresh etc don't is damage, tons of damage.
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Thresh actually has quite ridiculous damage for someone who doesn't build any, between his E passive, the free AP he gets from souls as the game goes on, and The Box's base damage.
As for Liandry's, it doesn't provide much unless all you do is poke, and Brand isn't really the champion for this. Plus, if you rush it, you get it while his combo still shreds people's health bars pretty hard (or straight-up kills them), so by the time Liandry's really starts ticking it doesn't deal that much damage.
People did math on Lux, very flawed maths that worked in favour of Liandry's, and even then it needed quite disjointed amounts of HP and MR for the burn to be worth it (using Q and E to keep the target cc'd during the burn). You'd need to try to kill someone who rushed Warmog's first without MR runes or something for the burn to be relevant at that point.
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From my experience, support Brand does more damage than Vel'koz, but he's less safe and has much less CC.
I've been playing a bunch of Karthus recently, and he feels really strong right now. It's also pretty funny when people think that he's super weak early and then you land a few Q's in a row and they're at 50% health.
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They are kind of different though.Velkoz is more poke/disengage and he needs some time while brand is the kind of champ that just blows his load and can die.He is more similar to zyra.
The new rylais makes kart really good.
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On August 12 2015 17:43 Alaric wrote:
Thresh actually has quite ridiculous damage for someone who doesn't build any, between his E passive, the free AP he gets from souls as the game goes on, and The Box's base damage.
As for Liandry's, it doesn't provide much unless all you do is poke, and Brand isn't really the champion for this. Plus, if you rush it, you get it while his combo still shreds people's health bars pretty hard (or straight-up kills them), so by the time Liandry's really starts ticking it doesn't deal that much damage.
People did math on Lux, very flawed maths that worked in favour of Liandry's, and even then it needed quite disjointed amounts of HP and MR for the burn to be worth it (using Q and E to keep the target cc'd during the burn). You'd need to try to kill someone who rushed Warmog's first without MR runes or something for the burn to be relevant at that point.
The math we did on Liandrys was before it got buffed from 50 to 80 AP.
It's actually significantly better as an item now, although it's still difficult to put it into a Lux build.
Void staff is the best damage item for Lux regardless of AP. The few times I've had to play support Lux in ranked (and I do have a positive winrate as support Lux, but still think it's a trash pick) I try to go Sightstone > Morello > Void. If you can get there you do okay, but if you can't your damage evaporates real fast.
On Champions that have kits that have real synergy with the burn, Liandrys is a strong item. Brand is one of these champions.
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No, I was talking about the RoG math (hence the "super flawed" mention). Lux was used because they thought of her as a poke mage, and you can easily get the cc'd damage amplification for the duration by Qing, then letting E slow without triggering it again.
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As for Liandry's, it doesn't provide much unless all you do is poke, and Brand isn't really the champion for this.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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I'm actually surprised Karma isn't up there with them. Lovely to see Janna with the highest win ratio. :3
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On August 13 2015 00:01 Jek wrote:I'm actually surprised Karma isn't up there with them. Lovely to see Janna with the highest win ratio. :3
Karmas very often build utility, whereas the top 3 all build damage items.
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The problem is that not all damage is the same, especially when it comes to poke vs all-in burst.
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I do think it's surprising that Zyra does a similar amount to Brand and Velcro, since she vastly overtakes them in CC and Utility.
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I do think it's surprising that Zyra does a similar amount to Brand and Velcro, since she vastly overtakes them in CC and Utility.
I don't think it's surprising at all, Zyra's poke tends to be easier to hit/more likely to hit, those plants are great harassment and her other abilities are just bonus damage. Plus she can harass through the wave easier, Brand has his W but Zyra's kit is just better in that regard.
Does Frostqueen proc off of Zyra plants?
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Zyra puts out amazing damage out of lane regardless of role. If her plants were smarter and her base defense wasn't garbage, she'd be picked mid. And probably OP as fuck.
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The main issues with Zyra are her base defenses are non-existent, is a rather immobile mage, and the plants can be pretty buggy at times. Back in season 3 when C9 ran the Ashe/Zyra lane, they did it because Zyra had some pretty high base damage in the kit, a long AA range, and the plant damage is insane (even with shitty AI targeting). And when combined with Ashe's ult it gave for a pretty solid engage/disengage tool with Zyra's ult and her roots.
Honestly all she needs is the plant AI to be fixed, and she'd probably see play in bot or mid again. Her ult is still insanely large, the root is pretty powerful, and the AA range is still one of the highest in the game for a non-ADC role. It's not a meta pick right now because of how the support needs to either be a tanky beefcake or an engage tool to allow for carry toplaners and turret dives in the early game, but she's not weak in any sense.
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United States37500 Posts
Not sure why Zyra isn't more popular but shit, she def does the most damage out of any Support. Never seen any other Support capable of carrying as hard as her.
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On August 13 2015 03:55 Caiada wrote:
Zyra puts out amazing damage out of lane regardless of role. If her plants were smarter and her base defense wasn't garbage, she'd be picked mid. And probably OP as fuck.
Sort of, but Azir is much more versatile for the role because of mobility and the instant ult. I do think better plant AI on her is a necessary feature for her to be more meta without OP numbers, or make them like Azir soldiers. She probably will be back sometime with OP numbers, but everything is meta if it's got crazy numbers.
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Supports are too utility-focused right now for her or Vel to make much impact in pro scene. She's super good soloq though. Rush Liandry's and melt every bad engage and gank.
On August 13 2015 04:07 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 03:55 Caiada wrote:
Zyra puts out amazing damage out of lane regardless of role. If her plants were smarter and her base defense wasn't garbage, she'd be picked mid. And probably OP as fuck. Sort of, but Azir is much more versatile for the role because of mobility and the instant ult. I do think better plant AI on her is a necessary feature for her to be more meta without OP numbers, or make them like Azir soldiers. She probably will be back sometime with OP numbers, but everything is meta if it's got crazy numbers.
Yeah. All she has over Azir besides the range of ult and some light CC is the burst and that's not nearly enough (in competitive at least; soloq is whatever) to make up for her abysmal defense and unreliable plants.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 13 2015 04:09 Caiada wrote:Supports are too utility-focused right now for her or Vel to make much impact in pro scene. She's super good soloq though. Rush Liandry's and melt every bad engage and gank. Show nested quote +On August 13 2015 04:07 cLutZ wrote:On August 13 2015 03:55 Caiada wrote:
Zyra puts out amazing damage out of lane regardless of role. If her plants were smarter and her base defense wasn't garbage, she'd be picked mid. And probably OP as fuck. Sort of, but Azir is much more versatile for the role because of mobility and the instant ult. I do think better plant AI on her is a necessary feature for her to be more meta without OP numbers, or make them like Azir soldiers. She probably will be back sometime with OP numbers, but everything is meta if it's got crazy numbers. Yeah. All she has over Azir besides the range of ult and some light CC is the burst and that's not nearly enough (in competitive at least; soloq is whatever) to make up for her abysmal defense and unreliable plants.
Well, yeah, I was referring more to solo q than pro play. Hell, I def feel like I play more than my fair share of solo q-esque champs than "tryhard" competitive picks.
That said, I think I see Zyra like 1-3 times a month and they more often than not carry. It's like no one plays her unless you're somehow very proficient/like her. I rarely see anyone trying Zyra out and doing bad. I see plenty of bad Jannas on the other hand.
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EPT
