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On August 12 2015 01:47 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 01:21 Caiada wrote:
Burst mages aren't played, but Viktor is the most popular non-Azir mid. Alright.
Rylai's/Liandry's/Sorc's is as much damage as Dcap/Void in exchange for 700 health, and he naturally builds a lot of pen. What you're describing is exactly why people see him as bad. His kit does not make a good burst mage.
His usual combo with Ult has 850 + 2.3AP.
Viktor, another unsafe mid range mage with an AoE ult and a lot of burst, has 850 + 2.25AP and an additional 30 + .1AP every half second you keep ult on someone. The difference is he can hold W, E hits multiple people way more easily than Brand's pillar, and his ult does more damage and more reliably. And he gets AP more easily. So why the fuck would I build Brand as a burst mage when he's got a tank-shredding passive and an anti-single diver kit? If you're not building Liandry/Rylai's, you shouldn't be picking Brand, regardless of position.
Ok, Viktor is possibly? good mid based on the discussion over the last few days/pages. Brand isn't good mid though. Your usefulness comes from blowing shit up. Passive damage is great in a war of attrition and adds up over time in lane, but it's not an important component of your mid/late game damage as a support.
I'm not even getting into that argument. If you're not playing Brand for the burn, go play Viktor.
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On August 12 2015 01:47 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 01:21 Caiada wrote:
Burst mages aren't played, but Viktor is the most popular non-Azir mid. Alright.
Rylai's/Liandry's/Sorc's is as much damage as Dcap/Void in exchange for 700 health, and he naturally builds a lot of pen. What you're describing is exactly why people see him as bad. His kit does not make a good burst mage.
His usual combo with Ult has 850 + 2.3AP.
Viktor, another unsafe mid range mage with an AoE ult and a lot of burst, has 850 + 2.25AP and an additional 30 + .1AP every half second you keep ult on someone. The difference is he can hold W, E hits multiple people way more easily than Brand's pillar, and his ult does more damage and more reliably. And he gets AP more easily. So why the fuck would I build Brand as a burst mage when he's got a tank-shredding passive and an anti-single diver kit? If you're not building Liandry/Rylai's, you shouldn't be picking Brand, regardless of position.
Ok, Viktor is possibly? good mid based on the discussion over the last few days/pages. Brand isn't good mid though. Your usefulness comes from blowing shit up. Passive damage is great in a war of attrition and adds up over time in lane, but it's not an important component of your mid/late game damage as a support. Building as a burst mage makes you a credibly third (or fourth or fifth) threat on your team, which is very valuable.
You also talk about brand support like you can get your items very easily which isn't even close to how it actually works.
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It was only briefly part of the discussion, but Lux support is bad. Don't play it.
The only legitimate reason to play Lux support is when you pick Lux mid and then somebody after you trolls champ select and you have to shuffle your lineup around.
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The only person I ever saw do well with Lux support in an actual game was jiji fucking around with Sailor Moon on release when nobody would give him mid >.> Being jiji, he just built Mejai's/Morello and stole all the kills and won handily.
@below: Of course you don't suggest either Rylai's (if I were getting anything on support Brand, this would be it), Guise, or Liandry's.
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Spellthief -> Frostfang -> amp -> decide if Zeke's or stack more ap -> Sorc boots -> Luden's/Dcap/Void
Buy lots of consumables, doesn't matter because you're getting tons of gold from spellthief/frostfang
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On August 12 2015 01:56 ticklishmusic wrote:
Spellthief -> Frostfang -> amp -> decide if Zeke's or stack more ap -> Sorc boots -> Luden's/Dcap/Void
Buy lots of consumables, doesn't matter because you're getting tons of gold from spellthief/frostfang
All I see is "hope enemy is bad and you get kills and if you don't rip".Also yea those items are bad.
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Better not buy the most efficient Brand item in the game
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On August 12 2015 01:56 Caiada wrote:
The only person I ever saw do well with Lux support in an actual game was jiji fucking around with Sailor Moon on release when nobody would give him mid >.> Being jiji, he just built Mejai's/Morello and stole all the kills and won handily.
@below: Of course you don't suggest either Rylai's (if I were getting anything on support Brand, this would be it), Guise, or Liandry's.
Ok, Viktor is possibly? good mid based on the discussion over the last few days/pages. Brand isn't good mid though.
Your usefulness comes from blowing shit up. Passive damage is great in a war of attrition and adds up over time in lane (it's one of his biggest draws as a duolaner), but it's not an important component of your mid/late game damage as a support. Building as a burst mage makes you a credibly third (or fourth or fifth) threat on your team, which is very valuable. You can build enough AP to blow someone up, and exhaust evens the odds quite a bit.
Looking at Liandry's+ Sceptre: it adds nice survivability, but I'm not so sure it makes sense on Brand. It's 6K gold, and a good chunk of it goes into survivability. The Liandry's makes sense because mpen is the one thing that strengthens his passive, but I'm not sure the Sceptre to get more burn makes sense. It's kind of saying A is good with B, and B is good with C, so A is good with the combo of B and C.
On August 12 2015 01:59 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 01:56 ticklishmusic wrote:
Spellthief -> Frostfang -> amp -> decide if Zeke's or stack more ap -> Sorc boots -> Luden's/Dcap/Void
Buy lots of consumables, doesn't matter because you're getting tons of gold from spellthief/frostfang All I see is "hope enemy is bad and you get kills and if you don't rip".Also yea those items are bad.
I'm 3-1 in ranked (might be 4-1) and I'll do my D2 promos with it.
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An immobile medium range mage definitely doesn't need survivability or a 6 second 20% slow. Nope. No, sir. Never.
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On August 12 2015 02:11 Caiada wrote:
An immobile medium range mage definitely doesn't need survivability or a 6 second 20% slow. Nope. No, sir. Never.
The scenario where that survivability matters is when you get caught out. You're a ranged support, the enemy shouldn't be focusing you in any other conceivable scenario.
How are you getting 6 seconds for Rylai's slow?
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On August 12 2015 02:08 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 01:56 Caiada wrote:
The only person I ever saw do well with Lux support in an actual game was jiji fucking around with Sailor Moon on release when nobody would give him mid >.> Being jiji, he just built Mejai's/Morello and stole all the kills and won handily.
@below: Of course you don't suggest either Rylai's (if I were getting anything on support Brand, this would be it), Guise, or Liandry's. Show nested quote +Ok, Viktor is possibly? good mid based on the discussion over the last few days/pages. Brand isn't good mid though.
Your usefulness comes from blowing shit up. Passive damage is great in a war of attrition and adds up over time in lane (it's one of his biggest draws as a duolaner), but it's not an important component of your mid/late game damage as a support. Building as a burst mage makes you a credibly third (or fourth or fifth) threat on your team, which is very valuable. You can build enough AP to blow someone up, and exhaust evens the odds quite a bit.
Looking at Liandry's+ Sceptre: it adds nice survivability, but I'm not so sure it makes sense on Brand. It's 6K gold, and a good chunk of it goes into survivability. The Liandry's makes sense because mpen is the one thing that strengthens his passive, but I'm not sure the Sceptre to get more burn makes sense. It's kind of saying A is good with B, and B is good with C, so A is good with the combo of B and C. Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 01:59 nafta wrote:On August 12 2015 01:56 ticklishmusic wrote:
Spellthief -> Frostfang -> amp -> decide if Zeke's or stack more ap -> Sorc boots -> Luden's/Dcap/Void
Buy lots of consumables, doesn't matter because you're getting tons of gold from spellthief/frostfang All I see is "hope enemy is bad and you get kills and if you don't rip".Also yea those items are bad. I'm 3-1 in ranked (might be 4-1) and I'll do my D2 promos with it.
Wow what a big sample size.You sure showed me  .
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I know Raphael Sanzio was hanging out in D1 playing mostly Velkoz and Brand support.
They're cheesy in that they work more by killing the enemy lane and taking gold away from the ADC by taking the kills, but they're definitely playable. It's just not the way people see the support role.
As to which of the two is the best at it I have no idea.
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On August 12 2015 02:15 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 02:11 Caiada wrote:
An immobile medium range mage definitely doesn't need survivability or a 6 second 20% slow. Nope. No, sir. Never. The scenario where that survivability matters is when you get caught out. You're a ranged support, the enemy shouldn't be focusing you in any other conceivable scenario. How are you getting 6 seconds for Rylai's slow?
5 seconds, I forgot how long Rylai's on DoTs was. 4 seconds of burn every second, last tick applies an additional 1 second of Rylai's. Might just be 4 seconds; point stands either way.
Edit: Just tested it. It's 5 seconds.
I actually think Vel'koz is support is legit. He's somebody with an actually terrible lategame and that does actually rely on his ridiculous base damage, so going Frostfang->Guise->Void is not only his best build, it's also pretty cost-efficient as a support. 1100+ base on his full combo is absolutely insane.
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On August 12 2015 01:54 Ketara wrote:
It was only briefly part of the discussion, but Lux support is bad. Don't play it.
The only legitimate reason to play Lux support is when you pick Lux mid and then somebody after you trolls champ select and you have to shuffle your lineup around.
the best reason to play lux is when you want to turn the cheesey positivity up to 11 blast on SClub 7 and reach for the stars. I love it when a plan comes together.
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On August 12 2015 02:21 Ketara wrote:
I know Raphael Sanzio was hanging out in D1 playing mostly Velkoz and Brand support.
They're cheesy in that they work more by killing the enemy lane and taking gold away from the ADC by taking the kills, but they're definitely playable. It's just not the way people see the support role.
As to which of the two is the best at it I have no idea.
You can one trick pony most things to d1 really not a big deal.Doesn't make it good.Just look at gross gore.
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Pretty sure I could have played like 100 games and people would still say hurrdurr sample size. You're simply not going to find a large enough sample for some things, and in those cases you have to use something else. I think it's fair for me to put my promos on the line, though tbh I really don't give a crap these days. I could tryhard Thresh and Ali to D1, but that wouldn't be fun.
I think one of the big problems in LoL is people say "oh it's a cheese" and then write their loss off to it being an unfamiliar strategy. Since it's relatively uncommon, they just take their occasional loss or weird game and don't both doing deeper planning around it. I think the meta could expand and evolve a lot more if people bothered. But anyways, that's just an aside.
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Play whatever in sub-Challenger soloq. It's soloq. You win by being better, not some magical draft. Saint played Grag and Tahm support all the way to Masters. He had a fucking 70% winrate with Garen jungle. When it works in challenger, then there'll be an argument.
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On August 12 2015 02:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
Pretty sure I could have played like 100 games and people would still say hurrdurr sample size. You're simply not going to find a large enough sample for some things, and in those cases you have to use something else. I think it's fair for me to put my promos on the line, though tbh I really don't give a crap these days. I could tryhard Thresh and Ali to D1, but that wouldn't be fun.
I think one of the big problems in LoL is people say "oh it's a cheese" and then write their loss off to it being an unfamiliar strategy. Since it's relatively uncommon, they just take their occasional loss or weird game and don't both doing deeper planning around it. I think the meta could expand and evolve a lot more if people bothered. But anyways, that's just an aside.
Why bring it up if you know the sample size is meaningless then?I couldn't give less of a shit if something is a "cheese".I have played it and against it.And there are weaknesses which you can't do anything about and you are just completely ignoring.Sure you won't get fucked by the support mains who actually play the role that often cuz they are rare in solo and might carry the game but doesn't make something consistently good.
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On August 12 2015 02:29 ticklishmusic wrote:
Pretty sure I could have played like 100 games and people would still say hurrdurr sample size. You're simply not going to find a large enough sample for some things, and in those cases you have to use something else. I think it's fair for me to put my promos on the line, though tbh I really don't give a crap these days.
You needn't be so dismissive of the community. Over the course of LoL's history members of this community have made discoveries long before they made a splash in ranked/competitive, but there's also been a lot of fool's gold as well. Don't mistake skepticism for close-mindedness (though there will always be naysayers).
As it stands a half dozen games is, in fact, too few games to really judge. There are too many factors involved to judge by the record alone, though if we had more data or even the VODs we might be able to analyze Support Brand's role in those victories better.
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On August 12 2015 02:33 Caiada wrote:
Play whatever in sub-Challenger soloq. It's soloq. You win by being better, not some magical draft. Saint played Grag and Tahm support all the way to Masters. He had a fucking 70% winrate with Garen jungle. When it works in challenger, then there'll be an argument.
garen jungle is pretty fucking strong. once you get past the bad early clears at least.
just because you don't realize how strong garen is doesn't mean you can magically carry with anything you want
support velkoz is actually really good and you see velkoz/zyras top damage dealt from the support role
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EPT
