EPTHe doesn't have the best of Annie then.
[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 27
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
He doesn't have the best of Annie then. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I think it's a decent idea because he really only needs Rylai/Liandry/Sorc's to be at basically maximum gold potential for damage and utility as a non-carry, but the unreliable stun, lack of safety, and lackluster roaming leave me wondering why I'd pick him over one of the other AP ranged supports. Nami does less damage, but has more room to build Zeke's and Q, while not the most reliable thing, doesn't rely on being close range or hitting two skillshots. If Brand fits anywhere right now, it's probably top lane. RoA->Rylai's->Liandry's is a boatload of health at all stages of the game and I think anybody who uses Liandry's/Rylai's right now is strong enough to get play in the right scenario. Edit: Watching Froggen in soloq never build Hydra on mid Lee/Talon and rush Dcap before Void or Guise on Vel'koz is tilting the fuck out of me. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
The Annie point is true, though the thing I like about Brand is that his stun is on an effectively lower cooldown, and is a flat 2 seconds. I wouldn't necessarily say it's unreliable either, the EQ setup is super easy if it's absolutely necessary and you can easily set things on fire with W or R and follow with a Q to the face. I haven't been picking up cooldown, but if you can get 40%, his stun is potentially on a 3.6 second CD (and 2 seconds long!), though in reality you'll be stunning every 4-5 seconds. Also, you get that Anivia-y effect with his E, which gives him a level 6 single target burst of ~1000. R ignite, Q to stun, W because they can't follow up, E for the kaboom. He excels in two scenarios: one, enemy team dives you (with Sivir or w/e) and you RQ the biggest dive threat to the face (E if squishy), then just dance around blowing stuff up. Or as mentioned before, you get the jump on a carry and blow him or her up. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On August 11 2015 23:37 ticklishmusic wrote: Lux isn't a cheese pick at all in my opinion, she just doesn't fill the traditional/ meta idea of of support. Oh, and she's pretty weak. Brand gets the damage of Lux, but a big chunk of his damage is free from his passive unlike Lux who is dependent on landing an auto afterwards. I've found that as a consequence Brand doesn't run into mana issues as much when poking. Nami is a pretty crap support right now honestly, she's more Soraka-y than Soraka. I'd pick Lulu over her 9/10 times, unless Lulu is already mid or top. The Annie point is true, though the thing I like about Brand is that his stun is on an effectively lower cooldown, and is a flat 2 seconds. I wouldn't necessarily say it's unreliable either, the EQ setup is super easy if it's absolutely necessary and you can easily set things on fire with W or R and follow with a Q to the face. I haven't been picking up cooldown, but if you can get 40%, his stun is potentially on a 3.6 second CD (and 2 seconds long!), though in reality you'll be stunning every 4-5 seconds. He excels in two scenarios: one, enemy team dives you (with Sivir or w/e) and you RQ the biggest dive threat to the face (E if squishy), then just dance around blowing stuff up. Or as mentioned before, you get the jump on a carry and blow him or her up. More Soraka-y than Soraka, despite being better at roaming and better at counterengage and having actual CC and not being dependent on the tiny healing niche. Alright. Annie is kind of niche atm, when her stun is AoE, larger range, and point-and-click. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
I guess because of its "unreliability" Riot gave it a 2 second duration to make up for it. That's totally worth it. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Brand, support or no, requires an entirely different climate to work competitively. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I still think mid could be a lot more diverse right now if it weren't for draft being so lane-centric and item builds being so stubborn. Karthus is fucking amazing right now if you skip RoA. If your team gets Janna/Grag, Kog's the best mid in the game if you go Tear/Liandry/Rylai. Anivia is probably playable. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The point is that his combos shred pretty much anyone who doesn't have absurd base stats like Gnar or Shyvana (even a non-fed Maokai eats a fair share because his ult should only make up for the lack of natural MR at that point), or defensive measures like shields or hexdrinker, during the midgame. He doesn't want to go late: midgame is when he shines and when he doesn't necessarily care about stunning a frontliner because the guy'll die anyway and the AoE and bounces will wreck the backline too if he plays his hand right. But burst mages aren't seen often (or, like Kennen, they're sent top and selected for their utility) because the games rarely close out before late (and they haven't for awhile) so it's like picking Yorick and hoping to win before he falls off. You're taking a gamble in an environment where the odds are against you. And if you build him tanky with stuff like RoA/Rylai/Liandry's, he's got a bunch of HP and %damage but by the time he buys all that you missed his spike in terms of burst, and you're looking at using his utility (without CDR in your build) for... what, peeling and kiting tanks? Who're going to have 100+ MR and would take more dps from constant aa-ing by Gnar ('cause Hyper is pretty dumb to make up for being disabled in melee)? 2% max HP per second isn't that great compared to burst, and he doesn't have enough cc by himself to let the burn kick in, that's why he's better off biding his time to catch a squishy. Combining Rylai's (and eventually Liandry's) with his passive is a way to stay relevant late if he hasn't won by then, not a boon to build upon. | ||
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
1. Divers and big initiates-- fuck you Sivir 2. DPS/ zone control mids: until late game (or you're pretty behind) his burst is enough to force them out of a fight Combined, I think that's a compelling enough reason to pick him. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Rylai's/Liandry's/Sorc's is as much damage as Dcap/Void in exchange for 700 health, and he naturally builds a lot of pen. What you're describing is exactly why people see him as bad. His kit does not make a good burst mage. His usual combo with Ult has 850 + 2.3AP. Viktor, another unsafe mid range mage with an AoE ult and a lot of burst, has 850 + 2.25AP and an additional 30 + .1AP every half second you keep ult on someone. The difference is he can hold W, E hits multiple people way more easily than Brand's pillar, and his ult does more damage and more reliably. And he gets AP more easily. So why the fuck would I build Brand as a burst mage when he's got a tank-shredding passive and an anti-single diver kit? If you're not building Liandry/Rylai's, you shouldn't be picking Brand, regardless of position. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On August 12 2015 01:21 Caiada wrote: Burst mages aren't played, but Viktor is the most popular non-Azir mid. Alright. Rylai's/Liandry's/Sorc's is as much damage as Dcap/Void in exchange for 700 health, and he naturally builds a lot of pen. What you're describing is exactly why people see him as bad. His kit does not make a good burst mage. His usual combo with Ult has 850 + 2.3AP. Viktor, another unsafe mid range mage with an AoE ult and a lot of burst, has 850 + 2.25AP and an additional 30 + .1AP every half second you keep ult on someone. The difference is he can hold W, E hits multiple people way more easily than Brand's pillar, and his ult does more damage and more reliably. And he gets AP more easily. So why the fuck would I build Brand as a burst mage when he's got a tank-shredding passive and an anti-single diver kit? If you're not building Liandry/Rylai's, you shouldn't be picking Brand, regardless of position. cough need more bans cough | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I'm ready to bet that whenever Brand is buffed or reworked, the changes will improve his lategame over making his midgame spike stronger to cement his role. You didn't even read my post since I mentioned at the beginning that burst/AoE/teamfight mages naturally spike in the midgame because they rely on their base damage. You don't look at a 6-items build on Brand because he'll have 2-3 (depending on if he chooses Morellonomicon, Guise, or more expensive stuff) when he's the strongest, eg. when he can actually walk up and combo to 100-0 squishies and trounce the frontline just as easily if he focuses it instead. I'd build Brand as a burst mage any day if the games didn't routinely go to 40 minutes for the past year and a half. But they do, and it sucks for champions like him. You just go and play him like you said and realise that if they focus you, you won't have the damage to kill the bruiser who's on your ass anyway, and either you wait to get dived (and cast W on yourself to easily chain with Q, or try to cast E and get bopped because short range + long animation), doing no damage in the meantime so not contributing, or you try casting stuff and risk taking a bunch of damage (depending on the cc available to the diver) before you stun them, then again some more damage once the Tenacity wears it off. | ||
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JJMC
Portugal83 Posts
On August 12 2015 01:36 Alaric wrote:I'd build Brand as a burst mage any day if the games didn't routinely go to 40 minutes for the past year and a half. But they do, and it sucks for champions like him. I have 1 game on my match history that goes past 41 minutes. It lasted 44. How do your games last so long with 5 dragons and barons all over the place? | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
You didn't even read my post since I mentioned at the beginning that burst/AoE/teamfight mages naturally spike in the midgame because they rely on their base damage. Painfully simplistic. Ori's a popular teamfight mage that is at her strongest lategame because of high scaling. You don't look at a 6-items build on Brand because he'll have 2-3 I didn't? when he's the strongest, eg. when he can actually walk up and combo to 100-0 squishies If you play him as a pointlessly unsafe burst mage and get 0 health, sure. You just go and play him like you said and realise that if they focus you, you won't have the damage to kill the bruiser who's on your ass anyway, and either you wait to get dived (and cast W on yourself to easily chain with Q, or try to cast E and get bopped because short range + long animation), doing no damage in the meantime so not contributing, or you try casting stuff and risk taking a bunch of damage (depending on the cc available to the diver) before you stun them, then again some more damage once the Tenacity wears it off. The great thing about his passive and ult is if you use it properly and build not-nonsensical items, you're contributing a large slowing burn for about 4 seconds even while you're doing nothing. And you can reapply it in an aoe 1050 range away every 7ish seconds. No, you can't play him into a team where you're always the primary target, just like.... Viktor. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On August 12 2015 01:21 Caiada wrote: Burst mages aren't played, but Viktor is the most popular non-Azir mid. Alright. Rylai's/Liandry's/Sorc's is as much damage as Dcap/Void in exchange for 700 health, and he naturally builds a lot of pen. What you're describing is exactly why people see him as bad. His kit does not make a good burst mage. His usual combo with Ult has 850 + 2.3AP. Viktor, another unsafe mid range mage with an AoE ult and a lot of burst, has 850 + 2.25AP and an additional 30 + .1AP every half second you keep ult on someone. The difference is he can hold W, E hits multiple people way more easily than Brand's pillar, and his ult does more damage and more reliably. And he gets AP more easily. So why the fuck would I build Brand as a burst mage when he's got a tank-shredding passive and an anti-single diver kit? If you're not building Liandry/Rylai's, you shouldn't be picking Brand, regardless of position. Ok, Viktor is possibly? good mid based on the discussion over the last few days/pages. Brand isn't good mid though. Your usefulness comes from blowing shit up. Passive damage is great in a war of attrition and adds up over time in lane, but it's not an important component of your mid/late game damage as a support. Building as a burst mage makes you a credibly third (or fourth or fifth) threat on your team, which is very valuable. You can build enough AP to blow someone up, and exhaust evens the odds quite a bit. Looking at Liandry's+ Sceptre: it adds nice survivability, but I'm not so sure it makes sense on Brand. It's 6K gold, and a good chunk of it goes into survivability. The Liandry's makes sense because mpen is the one thing that strengthens his passive, but I'm not sure the Sceptre to get more burn makes sense. It's kind of saying A is good with B, and B is good with C, so A is good with the combo of B and C. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It isn't verbatim, but only because you misread what I wrote. Again. Well, I guess I'll just stop here. | ||
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