[Patch 5.15] Fiora Remake General Discussion - Page 31

On August 13 2015 04:42 Seuss wrote:
Don't underestimate the power of novelty. The people who stick with a novelty champion generally know what they're doing, and the people who play against them don't. Power of the unknown.

On August 13 2015 04:50 Caiada wrote:
Mundo's winrate at 50-125 games is lower than his base winrate. If you put a 2nd point into cleaver at 3, winrate goes up by 5%.

I'm always skeptical of those sorts of stats. Data needs context. Not everything is perfectly objective in a game filled with hundreds of variables. It's support, not an answer.

On August 13 2015 04:09 Caiada wrote:
Supports are too utility-focused right now for her or Vel to make much impact in pro scene. She's super good soloq though. Rush Liandry's and melt every bad engage and gank.



Yeah. All she has over Azir besides the range of ult and some light CC is the burst and that's not nearly enough (in competitive at least; soloq is whatever) to make up for her abysmal defense and unreliable plants.

On August 13 2015 05:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:

Yes, there are limitations to champion.gg data. And we should be aware of all the biases and problems in that data.

But remember that the alternative is anecdotal evidence. Let's not make isolated demands for rigor. Because in essence, our personal experience is basically champion.gg except with an incredibly smaller sample size, plus additional cognitive sources of error (e.g., confirmation bias). That's obviously not perfectly objective either.

On August 13 2015 04:47 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Again! There is data for this! You don't have to pull things out of your butt.

http://champion.gg/champion/Zyra/Support

She has a remarkable rise in win rate for games played compared to most other supports.

On August 13 2015 05:07 Caiada wrote:


I'm not gonna argue with somebody who pretends this game is science. Do some analysis.

On August 13 2015 07:43 GrandInquisitor wrote:

???

Man, I didn't even know we were arguing.

Unless you're just conflating "science" with "logical reasoning", I don't see what science has to do with this at all. Some people were speculating about how much damage Brand/Vel'Koz do, and others were speculating about how the win rate of Zyra is affected by Zyra mains vs Zyra noobs, and I added some data to the discussion for some context on the issues.

You (legitimately) pointed out some issues with the data based on certain statistical principles. Which I totally agreed with, except just to point out that it doesn't mean we forsake the data entirely and run back into the Dark Ages where we just shout anecdotes at each other, since anecdotes are subject to those same (legitimate) objections you raised and more.

On August 13 2015 09:25 Sonnington wrote:
Zyra's great! I think a big reason she's not played more is because she's rather boring. Unless you're playing against vegetables, the enemy can almost always avoid your E and can easily flash over it. Most of the time it's not even worth using your E since it's your only form of escape(besides ult.) So in a solo lane she's relegated to last hitting and harassing with Q. Once they get boots your Q harass is much harder to land. Then you just have to wait for FOW catch, gank, counter engage, or you have to blow your flash to land your unreliable snare. In team fights she basically destroys everything though.

On August 13 2015 13:05 Ketara wrote:
Yeah and Zyra Q and E are pretty generic and boring abilities.

Her plants aren't very different from each other either.

On August 13 2015 11:55 Purge wrote:


I wrote a long post earlier that said the same thing, but it it turned out that I lost it when I closed my browser :/

I used to main Zyra when she was Meta and honestly you could lose lane and hard carry afterwards if you didnt lose too hard. I know thats how most of my games went with her at least. Moreover she hasnt been changed in damage or control since then (outside of that brutal MS nerf, like Anivia Speed. Goddamn.), she's still as strong as she has always been.

That being said I never play her now because she has the depth of a wading pool in terms of gameplay. All of her unique utility- seeds and plant gameplay - is so watered down and meaningless that just bringing her up in the list of control mages ingame lowers the level of discourse. Seed vision is hardly ever optimal, especially considering that for being free wards they last like 30 seconds and she dies if she goes to put one down and overextends doing so.An active plant is just a win more button. And her ult is so stupidly powerful that noone can fix the plants issue without serious changes to her. Or at least thats what I see.

Imo she needs a Xerath Style rework.