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On July 23 2015 04:01 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote:
The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche. They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD. She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
I don't think she will be overtuned, I just think that in order for her to preform that weird niche people are imagining, she necessarily would be overtuned.
Just to clarify, the people who said Olaf would do this role said it was because of his AS Steroids, not Reckless Swing.
On July 23 2015 04:01 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 03:27 cLutZ wrote:On July 23 2015 03:01 Alaric wrote:
Because they're too silly to realise that 300 true damage every 5 seconds is nothing to a dude with 3k+ HP. Your point? If she could perform that function in teamfights, I don't see how they could make her laning damage to Maokai, etc less. And then she is just an overtuned champion. Her base % are low, and her ratios scale with levels, so it doesn't actually look that strong in laning (in a burst situation; as far as sustained damage goes, the whole "random direction to hit from for the bonus" makes it way too volatile to evaluate like that; it looks like its uptime is permanent though, unless Vitals disappear when they're far from Fiora). You also neglect the %max HP nature of the damage. Olaf's is negligible if people stack HP, Fiora's always relevant. Her ult also brings higher burst potential since Olaf's gated by a cooldown (although depending on RNG it looks like even without her ult she could spam it if a Vital doesn't take too long to activate). Monte, it depends: the thing is that tank-busting tools are usually made to deal quickly with higher HP pools, such as %current health damage, or to bypass resistances stacking, such as true damage. The former reduces the EHP gap quickly (relatively speaking), but once it's done the squishy still dies way faster to your "sustained damage" than the tank. The latter needs a decent base value so as not to feel too pointless if people stack HP, meaning a squishy who didn't still lose a good chunk of his HP. You'd need to mix and match mechanics to account for the differences a single one doesn't cover, and you'd end up with stuff like %current health true damage, bonus armour/MR penetration (like Yasuo, but without the silly crit scaling to 2-shot low HP pools), or a combination of "bonus pen" and %health damage so that you can use low enough values to only deal moderate damage to squishies (relative to their EHP) while still taking a large chunk of tanks. But then you end up with a kit that's really hard to itemise against.
Also hard to itemize against in lane. I do think you have a decent idea with making her need several offensive items to really be a tankbuster. Also under that balancing pathway you would give her really bad base/scaling MR so she is weak to poke comps, which would be coming online during her power trough. I could see that working, but it is a powercurve that Riot traditionally doesn't support.
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On July 23 2015 04:01 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote:
The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche. They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD. She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there.
They can't work around that with the % Health True Damage, it's mathematically impossible.
+ Show Spoiler [Math] +Imagine a champion who has no damage whatsoever outside of % Health True Damage. The equation for how long it will take them to kill a given enemy is simple:
Time to Kill = 100% / % of Health True Damage per Attack * Rate of Atttack
Notice that Health and Resists are completely absent. The only thing that matters is how many attacks it will take to add up to 100% Health True Damage and how fast you can attack. % Health True Damage makes no distinction between tanks and non-tanks because the stats that separate those categories simply aren't a factor.
Once you start bringing back Physical or Magic damage the calculations instantly swing back toward killing non-tanks faster because Health and Resists matter again. A champion with % Health True Damage will have less differential between how fast they kill tanks and non-tanks, but they will always kill the non-tanks faster.
The reason champions like release Malzahar or Vayne were considered anti-tank champions was primarily because they didn't have the range to attack anything else until the tank was dead (at which point super-broken-release Vayne murdered everyone).
If you want an anti-tank champion you need damage that scales ridiculously off of an opponent's Bonus Health and/or resistances. % Health True Damage won't do the job.
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On July 23 2015 04:30 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 04:01 Caiada wrote:On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote:
The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche. They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD. She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there. They can't work around that with the % Health True Damage, it's mathematically impossible. + Show Spoiler [Math] +Imagine a champion who has no damage whatsoever outside of % Health True Damage. The equation for how long it will take them to kill a given enemy is simple:
Time to Kill = 100% / % of Health True Damage per Attack * Rate of Atttack
Notice that Health and Resists are completely absent. The only thing that matters is how many attacks it will take to add up to 100% Health True Damage and how fast you can attack. % Health True Damage makes no distinction between tanks and non-tanks because the stats that separate those categories simply aren't a factor.
Once you start bringing back Physical or Magic damage the calculations instantly swing back toward killing non-tanks faster because Health and Resists matter again. A champion with % Health True Damage will have less differential between how fast they kill tanks and non-tanks, but they will always kill the non-tanks faster. The reason champions like release Malzahar or Vayne were considered anti-tank champions was primarily because they didn't have the range to attack anything else until the tank was dead (at which point super-broken-release Vayne murdered everyone). If you want an anti-tank champion you need damage that scales ridiculously off of an opponent's Bonus Health and/or resistances. % Health True Damage won't do the job.
I'm thinking of it more as a scale. A traditional AD kills squishies *much* faster than tanks, while Fiora would kill tanks much quicker than a standard AD while still killing squishies at relatively the same speed/a little faster. Particularly since crit's a little worse for her.
So she would ideally kill squishies at about the same speed and tanks a lot quicker, in exchange for being melee and squishy herself. Conveniently makes her a fantastic duelist as well. You don't need to counter a tank completely, just make it so that it's much more efficient for her to kill tanks in a teamfight.
It sounds like it'll be overtuned to me, so. That's my hangup.
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On July 23 2015 04:23 nafta wrote:
The new zeke is so fucking good.Makes twitch legit insane right now if you can get through lane.
It's pretty stupid, pretty much forces supports to build it first
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You're basically describing melee Vayne, which is a recipe for "hard to balance" if ever there was one.
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Is there a reason I keep on getting emails for surveys? Maybe it's my habit to fill them out. But like I don't get it. Is it because I've been buying champs when they're on sale?
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On July 23 2015 04:42 Seuss wrote:
You're basically describing melee Vayne, which is a recipe for "hard to balance" if ever there was one.
She'll be a soloq nightmare fed, almost certainly. But Vayne sucks right now (competitively, no matter what people say) because of her range and Fiora's is even shittier, without invisibility, and very minimal CC.
I think they have their work cut out for them with this kit.
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Vayne has same range as most AD's, she just doesn't have a ranged poke.
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On July 23 2015 04:40 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 04:30 Seuss wrote:On July 23 2015 04:01 Caiada wrote:On July 23 2015 03:31 Seuss wrote:
The truth of the matter is that anything which kills a tank fast kills non-tanks as fast if not faster. That's why there's no anti-tank niche. They can work around that with the %health true damage, and make her not solely a tank killer by making it require a ton of AD. She'll probably be overtuned, but the theory's there. They can't work around that with the % Health True Damage, it's mathematically impossible. + Show Spoiler [Math] +Imagine a champion who has no damage whatsoever outside of % Health True Damage. The equation for how long it will take them to kill a given enemy is simple:
Time to Kill = 100% / % of Health True Damage per Attack * Rate of Atttack
Notice that Health and Resists are completely absent. The only thing that matters is how many attacks it will take to add up to 100% Health True Damage and how fast you can attack. % Health True Damage makes no distinction between tanks and non-tanks because the stats that separate those categories simply aren't a factor.
Once you start bringing back Physical or Magic damage the calculations instantly swing back toward killing non-tanks faster because Health and Resists matter again. A champion with % Health True Damage will have less differential between how fast they kill tanks and non-tanks, but they will always kill the non-tanks faster. The reason champions like release Malzahar or Vayne were considered anti-tank champions was primarily because they didn't have the range to attack anything else until the tank was dead (at which point super-broken-release Vayne murdered everyone). If you want an anti-tank champion you need damage that scales ridiculously off of an opponent's Bonus Health and/or resistances. % Health True Damage won't do the job. I'm thinking of it more as a scale. A traditional AD kills squishies *much* faster than tanks, while Fiora would kill tanks much quicker than a standard AD while still killing squishies at relatively the same speed/a little faster. Particularly since crit's a little worse for her. So she would ideally kill squishies at about the same speed and tanks a lot quicker, in exchange for being melee and squishy herself. Conveniently makes her a fantastic duelist as well. You don't need to counter a tank completely, just make it so that it's much more efficient for her to kill tanks in a teamfight. It sounds like it'll be overtuned to me, so. That's my hangup.
You're describing (to an extent) a traditional DoTA-style hypercarry. So it really just depends on when she "comes online", and if they don't make her powercurve non-linear, they are just going to have to Poppy her.
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first game on new patch, captain bans 2 of the most nerfed champions in the patch.
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If Fiora's laning is good, she'll be broken as hell in any nonswap scenario, basically. Q level scaling and passive level scaling give me some hope that they recognized that.
I wonder wtf they'll do with Poppy. The whole kit is dead, obviously, aside from maybe the wall-stun, but beyond that, what're they gonna retain? The assassin nature, the weird automatic tankiness of her passive? The path for Sion was pretty clear. No way he wasn't going to be a tank. It was just a matter of what he'd actually do. But Poppy, they could do any damn thing with. I'm pretty curious how that's gonna go.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 23 2015 04:47 cLutZ wrote:
You're describing (to an extent) a traditional DoTA-style hypercarry. So it really just depends on when she "comes online", and if they don't make her powercurve non-linear, they are just going to have to Poppy her.
Not really?
Most "hypercarry" melee lategame carries in DotA do so with literally unpeelable ability to kill backline heroes (e.g. 5s CD Blink, Void Ult, Spectre Ult, potentially in combination with BKB). Differential ability to kill frontliners vs. backliners is not in any way a defining characteristic of lategame melee carries in DotA.
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I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/
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On July 23 2015 05:55 VayneAuthority wrote:
I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/
Just because its binary doesn't mean it didn't fix the snowball counterplay issue. Now there is a lot of play and counterplay to prevent or assist her in getting a good ult off.
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On July 23 2015 05:57 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 05:55 VayneAuthority wrote:
I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/ Just because its binary doesn't mean it didn't fix the snowball counterplay issue. Now there is a lot of play and counterplay to prevent or assist her in getting a good ult off.
unfortunately that isnt good design. just look at katarina. "cc" her ok she either destroys your entire team or does absolutely nothing, little to no competitive play. it's not a good kind of ult to have
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On July 23 2015 06:01 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2015 05:57 sob3k wrote:On July 23 2015 05:55 VayneAuthority wrote:
I just dont get how they "solved" fiora? they said she was too snowbally and no counterplay, well her new ult seems just as bad. Either you are successful in your ult and create a massive heal zone that basically autowins a fight or you fail and it is a joke of an ult.
o0?
and yea, OP items are much bigger problem then op champion because cant be banned. zekes is a huge problem and needs to be hotfixed. makes you even more reliant on your bot lane then before :/ Just because its binary doesn't mean it didn't fix the snowball counterplay issue. Now there is a lot of play and counterplay to prevent or assist her in getting a good ult off. unfortunately that isnt good design. just look at katarina. "cc" her ok she either destroys your entire team or does absolutely nothing, little to no competitive play. it's not a good kind of ult to have
I agree, just depends how strong the heal is, it looks strong but maybe not that broken. It's still better than old ult which had the binary issue as well as no interaction.
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good thing about the rework is i almost played non bruisers with old fiora but rito is fixing this
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if the new HUD isn't in ranked yet, that means that the files should still be on our computer somewhere right?
can't we just overwrite something so it applies to normal games in the game folder?
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someone tell me why i have to readjust my volume settings every single time theres a patch this fucking game in the year 2015 holy shit
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Damn, things I dislike:
New Gangplank
New UI
GP announcer
boooooooooooooooooooooooo riot
edit: Things I do like:
The GP music on login screen. Riot music team so on point.
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EPT
