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On August 05 2015 01:42 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 01:05 obesechicken13 wrote:On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 15:04 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 14:42 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:
[quote]
Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats).
edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield. Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone. Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay. Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame. Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user. Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fyaLHF0Y-you-do-realize-how-much-you-have-to-do-to-rebalance-the-game-after-nerfing-armor?comment=00010000+ Show Spoiler + Frozen Heart: 2600g (was 2450g), 90 Armor (was 100 Armor).
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes. Thornmail reflected on hit damage too. This sounds like a very massive change to an item keeping autoattacking champions in a delicate check. So before it would reflect 180 magic dps to someone with 600 dps. Now it'll reflect 90+25*(their attack speed) if Thornmail was your only armor source. Straight nerf. Yeah good luck killing their Yi as fucking Maokai with your Randuins + Frozen Heart, oh wait you don't have enough damage for their health pool. Or if you weren't a tank Thornmail would give you that chance to duel someone who was just slightly out of range because it was the best dueling item in the game. People already pick into 3 ADC team comps at my ELO, does Riot need to make it 4 ADC per team? Frozen Heart's nerf is huge. Even if you remove the mana Frozen heart is cost efficient. But it's also one of the only 20% CDR items which means people will still have to build it. Straight nerf to tanks. Thornmail never reflected on hit damage.
On being hit, Thornmail will reflect 30% of the physical damage dealt by the attacker, including most on-hit effects.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Thornmail
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On August 05 2015 00:58 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid. And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time. Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
The game gets to points where "I don't want to teamfight." isn't valid because with the state of split pushing in the current meta it will come down to team fights. Once again, I'm not saying to rush it first item either. The only time it's significantly behind it's generic item slot for damage is when you're in Abyssal aura range where she's brittle as all fuck. Other than that it's just 10AP. If her one weakness is teamfighting, why not outfit her with the best teamfighting aura in the game when the gamestate requires it and the team won't have it otherwise?
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That Thornmail change. Didn't they just buff vamp on BT and BotRK like two patches ago because they felt Thornmail was oppressive? Gonna be a lot worse with that.
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On August 04 2015 17:17 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote:
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user. 60 ap is still going to hurt on squishies If her values are screaming early game skirmishes where the other jungler is mostly on the receiving end, that's still not a problem. Banner is not a 1st buy item anyway.
If you are not getting aegis right after your jungle item, you are missing its most powerful and important timing. If you do either of the popular build of Runeglaive>Roa or Runeglaive>AA your suppport will likely be able to finish the aegis if they go T2>Sightstone>Aegis at approximately the same time.
On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
On August 05 2015 00:58 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid. And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time. Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
Agree with everything, except I kinda disagree with teamfighting being her only weakness. IMO she has others, but those are tangential to the topic.
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On August 05 2015 01:50 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 00:58 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid. And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time. Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it? The game gets to points where "I don't want to teamfight." isn't valid because with the state of split pushing in the current meta it will come down to team fights. Once again, I'm not saying to rush it first item either. The only time it's significantly behind it's generic item slot for damage is when you're in Abyssal aura range where she's brittle as all fuck. Other than that it's just 10AP. If her one weakness is teamfighting, why not outfit her with the best teamfighting aura in the game when the gamestate requires it and the team won't have it otherwise?
Because that is the wrong way to play lol.When you pick a champ that is good at x you do x you don't try to make him better at y.If you aren't building it first why are you building it at all?That makes it even worse since then the support or in worst case the top can get the aura by that time.Abyssal also gives damage to your teammates which is what you want in small skirmishes and ganks as a squishy.You want to kill someone as fast as possible and leave not an actual fight.
Well don't think she has any other weakness except spears being really hard to land(unless they are invisible...).
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So lately I've been playing a lot of sivir and cait on my road back to dia. After IE I like to build PD, but I was wondering what the consensus is on PD vs Shiv. When you should you go PD over Shiv, and on what champions?
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If you rush Aegis on a jungler, who's often a melee, frontline champion, you make yourself fairly vulnerable, especially during the 1k build-up after ruby and NMM but before the finished item.
It helps against burst if the enemy has an ahead LB or Annie, sure, but you'll still die to physical damage (most comps have it top/jungle/bot) pretty fast once you're in.
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On August 05 2015 01:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion.
http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Match_History
I don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
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shyv as a crutch for waveclear (I like it on vayne....and yea thats it)
PD otherwise especially with how bad minion pathing is lately.
only other time to get shyv is if you are playing an avarice blade based strategy where you feel your lane will be super passive and then you go for a fast 2 item timing of IE/shyv but I dont see how that would be relevant in solo q
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On August 05 2015 02:02 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Match_HistoryI don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil.
Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game).
Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
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On August 05 2015 02:07 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 02:02 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2015 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Match_HistoryI don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil. Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game). Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray.
So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works.
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On August 05 2015 02:13 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 02:07 nafta wrote:On August 05 2015 02:02 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2015 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Match_HistoryI don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil. Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game). Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray. So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works.
Lol.BV is a selfish item that prevents a hard cc(and the enemy in that game has no way to proc it) which in turn makes it easier to disengage and not fight.It is funny that it actually makes sense I know right?
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ironically if youre gonna buy an mr item, banshee is the item to buy on nid since it covers up one of her biggest weaknesses, a strong single targeted CC like ww ult or cocoon that makes engaging on your poke difficult
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On August 05 2015 01:51 zer0das wrote:
That Thornmail change. Didn't they just buff vamp on BT and BotRK like two patches ago because they felt Thornmail was oppressive? Gonna be a lot worse with that.
Yea. It looks like it entirely neuters full physical comps. You buy thornmail with 400 armor and now ever auto attack does .15[unmodified attack damage] + 75 damage. Break even point is 500 damage/attack. [or Bonus armor/.15], so about 200 damage with just thornmail and rune/mastery armor. [more damage/attack means a nerf to thornmail, less means a buff]
On August 05 2015 02:04 VayneAuthority wrote:
shyv as a crutch for waveclear (I like it on vayne....and yea thats it)
PD otherwise especially with how bad minion pathing is lately.
only other time to get shyv is if you are playing an avarice blade based strategy where you feel your lane will be super passive and then you go for a fast 2 item timing of IE/shyv but I dont see how that would be relevant in solo q
Given that Zekes is very strong now, it might make sense to go back to Shiv as your primary crit item. IE/Shiv/Zekes will be 90% crit. IE/PD/Zekes is 100%. PD will do about 6% more damage from crits[and maybe 5% more from AS (max is 7% if you got PD or Shiv at level 1 and had no other source of AS at all). PD still does a bit more damage, but its also a lot more expensive. And with Zekes the bonus magic damage on Shiv might actually overtake the PD damage bonus.[especially if you have more AD as a result]
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You, Gahlo, are also totally ignoring the MR difference between abyssal/bv and Aegis. At least with the first two you can pounce in and not die (while also doing better damage with abyssal). If you are going abyssal, you are opting into a more assassin playstyle. Aegis Nidalee would hit a spear, pounce in, not kill the enemy AD, then die and your team loses the buff. Her more disengage/poke playstyle means most your frontline doesn't get the benefit of the aura. Its inefficient on her in nearly every situation.
Like I said, lategame, after Runeglaive/ManaItem/DC(Void) you might want it as a luxury (much like the Banshees). Even then, however, you would be buying it so you can enhance your siege (preferable a baroned up promoted seige minion) where you get to fish for spears.
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On August 05 2015 02:15 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 02:13 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2015 02:07 nafta wrote:On August 05 2015 02:02 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2015 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Match_HistoryI don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil. Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game). Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray. So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works. Lol.BV is a selfish item that prevents a hard cc(and the enemy in that game has no way to proc it) which in turn makes it easier to disengage and not fight.It is funny that it actually makes sense I know right?
What happened to "lel don't fight"?
On August 05 2015 02:27 cLutZ wrote:
You, Gahlo, are also totally ignoring the MR difference between abyssal/bv and Aegis. At least with the first two you can pounce in and not die (while also doing better damage with abyssal). If you are going abyssal, you are opting into a more assassin playstyle. Aegis Nidalee would hit a spear, pounce in, not kill the enemy AD, then die and your team loses the buff. Her more disengage/poke playstyle means most your frontline doesn't get the benefit of the aura. Its inefficient on her in nearly every situation.
Like I said, lategame, after Runeglaive/ManaItem/DC(Void) you might want it as a luxury (much like the Banshees). Even then, however, you would be buying it so you can enhance your siege (preferable a baroned up promoted seige minion) where you get to fish for spears.
No, I clearly went over Banner having 10 less MR earlier and I'm well aware it's 15 behind BV.
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The bonus lane pressure from Banner of Command can easily be worth the weaker personal stats. This is especially true on champions which have high poke/siege potential like nidalee; especially if there isnt another AP champion on your team who can make use of the Banner.
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I don't understand this argument at all.
If you want MR aura don't play Nidalee, she's like the most selfish jungler.
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That's a simple/good answer. If I needed a jungler with aura I'd go with one of the tankier jungles, rather than Nid who is extremely reliant on spear damage
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On August 05 2015 02:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 02:15 nafta wrote:On August 05 2015 02:13 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2015 02:07 nafta wrote:On August 05 2015 02:02 Gahlo wrote:On August 05 2015 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
Abyssal is not an item Nidaleee builds so it cant compete with that. It competes with ROA/AA as a 2nd item or DC/Void as a 3rd item. In one situation she is mana starved and needs to have ridiculous spear accuracy, in the other her damage drops off too much for her to remain a relevant threat mid-late. Its probably not terrible as a 4th -6th item, but that timing is basically for the promoted minion. http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Nidalee/Match_HistoryI don't know man, looks like Nidalee's are building Abyssal pretty often in her competitive games. Oh, and we need o tell Chaser he's bad at the game for buying an entirely defensive item in Banshee's Veil. Well considering it is the only defensive item in that match history and it is a loss vs samsung that doesn't really help your point(even though the banshee isn't a bad buy that game). Always go pd unless you are a luckerdog or losing real bad and need to go avarice and pray. So BV isn't a bad buy when the situation deems it, but Banner is bad in all situations ever when the situation deems it. Funny how that works. Lol.BV is a selfish item that prevents a hard cc(and the enemy in that game has no way to proc it) which in turn makes it easier to disengage and not fight.It is funny that it actually makes sense I know right? What happened to "lel don't fight"? Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 02:27 cLutZ wrote:
You, Gahlo, are also totally ignoring the MR difference between abyssal/bv and Aegis. At least with the first two you can pounce in and not die (while also doing better damage with abyssal). If you are going abyssal, you are opting into a more assassin playstyle. Aegis Nidalee would hit a spear, pounce in, not kill the enemy AD, then die and your team loses the buff. Her more disengage/poke playstyle means most your frontline doesn't get the benefit of the aura. Its inefficient on her in nearly every situation.
Like I said, lategame, after Runeglaive/ManaItem/DC(Void) you might want it as a luxury (much like the Banshees). Even then, however, you would be buying it so you can enhance your siege (preferable a baroned up promoted seige minion) where you get to fish for spears. No, I clearly went over Banner having 10 less MR earlier and I'm well aware it's 15 behind BV.
You don't fight. You poke and sometimes try to flank and assassinate. If you find yourself in the middle of both your own team and the enemy team, either you have already essentially won the fight via a spear>pounce>execute, or you are almost surely losing the fight. The style of fighting you are talking about is one where you shouldnt be picking Nidalee as your jungler. If you want the earlygame damage and were going to fight like that, you should have just picked Lee Sin or Elise.
Now, obviously you can't be perfect, and can't always predict that in champ select, and if you want to say, "look my team sucks, they don't wait for me to land poke, I need to be a brawling Nidalee" go for it. Plus as a bonus, its not a terrible item for sieging because of the sweet minion.
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EPT
