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i've been building Banner of Command on jungle Fizz sometimes. i can't tell if it's actually good or not but there have definitely been a couple games where my team started unexpectedly winning mid-game fights that the aura probably contributed to. with the lack of team coordination you get at scrub elos there is probably some real value in the afk lane pushing that the promote active creates as well.
all of the item's strength is tied up in the "hidden power" that riot seems to want to get rid of so it buying it doesn't "feel" good and so nobody does; but just looking at the gold efficiency numbers (boosted even higher from promote gold income) it's pretty clear that it is a strong item if you benefit from the AP. also even if you are lucky enough to have a teammate that is going to build locket, i'm pretty sure that you can finish an Aegis much quicker on jungle income than the support can.
the problem i'm having is figuring out what to build around it. even with the AP it fits terribly in a Runeglaive AP build if you're trying to snowball, but Cinderhulk tank Fizz doesn't contribute much at all without the damage from Triforce which will come way too late if you're buying Banner and maybe even Frozen Heart first.
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On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms.
Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop.
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
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On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought.
It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
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Oh it's much better on Nid than Elise because Elise's base is no longer impressive past early-game which is still too much of a liability to pick over Nid or Gragas. But if you're playing either, tell your probably-should-be-a-tank Top to buy it. If they're getting Visage or Veil, tell them to do basic math.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
I LOVE when Riot drops newspeak like 'Competitive Integrity' and 'Toxic"
I don't know if it works, but it makes my reports look so Riot approved I totally believe everyone I report has been permed.
ps If you aren't building Nashors on Diana, you doing it wrong. It feels SO good. 15% CDR scaling blues, 5% masteries, and Nashors means late game you got a 3.6 Q, which means a 3.6 R. Even if you miss Q, your R is still up SUPER quick. But you get SO many procs off in teamfights. I know people say you don't auto much as Diana, but if you aren't in the mix autoing then Ionno what to tell you.
double ps If you have Nashors and you get 7 seconds with a turret, it's gone.
On August 04 2015 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
I def feel like Competitive Integrity is the new Toxic of 2015.
"Yasuo AFKed after his team started losing and was apparently verbally abusing them. I really hate to see that happen as it truly ruins the competitive integrity of the game to have such a toxic player in ranked."
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United States37500 Posts
I def feel like Competitive Integrity is the new Toxic of 2015.
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lol Valve is reenacting the great clg.eu vs WE game right now
they even have the crazy french stream lol
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Well the content of the lore I'm really not a fan of.
Or rather the way it's written: "here's blood and guts and gory details and grimdark characters and stuff".
Especially how MF now has the dark past and all and everything "jolly" about her is her facade for better getting her revenge from that waking nightmares-inducing dark past.
Meh.
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I'm so glad that I'm going to get "captain" gp for free so that I never have to play with that awful base skin they made. I'm not mad about the abs but all the other changes make him feel like a completely different character who should be doing things other than eating oranges and shooting explosive barrels. The stupid hat is a bad fashion choice but the mechanical arm makes it feel like he should be a piltover/zaun champ who super punches things or has a hidden sword hand or something. The art is not even remotely communicating the character's gameplay here.
On August 04 2015 09:14 NeoIllusions wrote:
I def feel like Competitive Integrity is the new Toxic of 2015.
They probably can't put the "big" in "big, successful company" without buzzword mantras.
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Should I max W second as Udyr?
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On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote.
This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 04 2015 11:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Should I max W second as Udyr?
Yes, if you're playing standard Phoenixdyr. R W E, R > W > E
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I think the main reason that top laners don't buy Aegis in competitive is that it's not ideal to have the teamfight aura item on your teleport champion (along with the fact that players don't like building it, and that there are some toplaners where building for 1v1 power is legitimately important so you can splitpush effectively). However Aegis is so important to have that it's probably still worth building on toplaners sometimes, even if it means you want a second one on someone else later.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On August 04 2015 12:39 crate wrote:
I think the main reason that top laners don't buy Aegis in competitive is that it's not ideal to have the teamfight aura item on your teleport champion (along with the fact that players don't like building it, and that there are some toplaners where building for 1v1 power is legitimately important so you can splitpush effectively). However Aegis is so important to have that it's probably still worth building on toplaners sometimes, even if it means you want a second one on someone else later.
I have seen Dyrus build it a few times on Maokai. But that'a Mao. And Dyrus.
But on a champion like Maokai, maybe Mundo(?) or some super tanks, I could see it being a good idea if you have a jungler or support who don't want/need it.
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So... shot in the dark...
I bet this season's victorious skin will be Sivir. Top tier pick whose availability totally warps the perception of what's good.
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On August 04 2015 13:13 iCanada wrote:
So... shot in the dark...
I bet this season's victorious skin will be Sivir. Top tier pick whose availability totally warps the perception of what's good.
it was confirmed to be an ADC so either sivir or kali for sure
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On August 04 2015 12:03 NeoIllusions wrote:Yes, if you're playing standard Phoenixdyr. R W E, R > W > E
I feel so too. I am not sure why some people say max E second, it doesn't make any sense for me at all.
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On August 04 2015 13:17 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 12:03 NeoIllusions wrote:On August 04 2015 11:49 Sufficiency wrote:
Should I max W second as Udyr? Yes, if you're playing standard Phoenixdyr. R W E, R > W > E I feel so too. I am not sure why some people say max E second, it doesn't make any sense for me at all.
Got to go fast.
I think it's a crutch for players who either can't play without gap closers or picked udyr in / into the wrong comp.
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On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee.
How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket.
I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer:
Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive
Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design
Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation
Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen
Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk
Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing
Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design
Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...?
Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything
Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk
Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal
Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal
Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R
Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design
Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design
Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal
Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal
Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive)
Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin
These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support.
On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map.
Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
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On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield.
Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
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EPT
