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On August 04 2015 04:51 Ansibled wrote:
What reason is there to take Devourer over Runeglaive for Diana? It seems like Runeglaive would be stronger.
Her passive is an on-hit effect so people like that.
If the PBE patch goes through I think that's the last I'll be able to play Nidalee for a while...
http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html
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On August 04 2015 14:42 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield. Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone.
Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
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On August 04 2015 15:04 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 14:42 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield. Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone. Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay.
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
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Credit where it's due, those HUD changes solve pretty much every complaint I had about it. The OOM/CD color change is huge for me.
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On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote:
Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame.
Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
60 ap is still going to hurt on squishies
If her values are screaming early game skirmishes where the other jungler is mostly on the receiving end, that's still not a problem. Banner is not a 1st buy item anyway.
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On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 15:04 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 14:42 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield. Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone. Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay. Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame. Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user.
Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her.
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fyaLHF0Y-you-do-realize-how-much-you-have-to-do-to-rebalance-the-game-after-nerfing-armor?comment=00010000
+ Show Spoiler + Frozen Heart: 2600g (was 2450g), 90 Armor (was 100 Armor).
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes.
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That FH taking a huge hit again, bleh.
I tend not to buy Locket early when playing Maokai top because for MR Cowl is legitimately a good item in a lot of match-ups, and the way I engage fights I go in way ahead of my team pretty often, or try to zone/distract by manfighting 1v3 after I locked the enemy carry down for my team (so I don't die to him while I'm deep). My allies aren't always in range of the aura, and I need the raw stats to survive better.
If I feel like I lack MR (happens often, Maokai's got no MR growth so even with mercs+SV you barely get past 100 before runes) I'll build Locket next rather than Banshee's though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I think people overestimate Spirit Visage's effect. For example, how much is SV really healing a BotRK Fizz for? Is 2% life steal and 15 MR really better than a 50 + (10 × level) shield plus 20 MR on your teammates?
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On August 04 2015 22:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I think people overestimate Spirit Visage's effect. For example, how much is SV really healing a BotRK Fizz for? Is 2% life steal and 15 MR really better than a 50 + (10 × level) shield plus 20 MR on your teammates?
The competitive community sure thinks so since they aren't actually trading away the aura. The jungler or support is picking it up.
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Also remember that now BotRK's lifesteal works on its passive.
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United States11393 Posts
As a Vayne fangirl, I was really hoping FH would be nerfed harder. ;;
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United States37500 Posts
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And instead they buff thornmail vs vayne.
Haw Haw.
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Awww.. FH, my favourite item 
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On August 05 2015 00:04 Ketara wrote:
And instead they buff thornmail vs vayne.
Haw Haw.
I think Thornmail is essentially buffed. Now junglers can buy it as the first item....
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On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game.
Because you are wasting 1900 gold for a teamfighting aura on a champion that doesn't want to teamfight and 3k gold on 60 ap and 10% cdr.The whole point of nidalee is to kill people early and poke.Literally her only weakness is teamfighting so you are using 1900 gold to get nothing to actually help you do what you do best.It is straight up stupid.
And no if you spend your money on shit like this you won't blow people up and will be useless.Especially in pro play where junglers are starved all the time.
Also the biggest thing is nidalee is never in position to give the aura to your entire team anyway so what is the point of getting it?
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On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 15:04 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 14:42 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield. Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone. Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay. Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame. Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user. Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fyaLHF0Y-you-do-realize-how-much-you-have-to-do-to-rebalance-the-game-after-nerfing-armor?comment=00010000+ Show Spoiler + Frozen Heart: 2600g (was 2450g), 90 Armor (was 100 Armor).
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes.
Thornmail reflected on hit damage too. This sounds like a very massive change to an item keeping autoattacking champions in a delicate check. So before it would reflect 180 magic dps to someone with 600 dps. Now it'll reflect 90+25*(their attack speed) if Thornmail was your only armor source. Straight nerf. Yeah good luck killing their Yi as fucking Maokai with your Randuins + Frozen Heart, oh wait you don't have enough damage for their health pool.
Or if you weren't a tank Thornmail would give you that chance to duel someone who was just slightly out of range because it was the best dueling item in the game.
People already pick into 3 ADC team comps at my ELO, does Riot need to make it 4 ADC per team?
Frozen Heart's nerf is huge. Even if you remove the mana Frozen heart is cost efficient. But it's also one of the only 20% CDR items which means people will still have to build it. Straight nerf to tanks.
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On August 05 2015 01:05 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2015 17:55 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 15:48 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 15:04 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 14:42 cLutZ wrote:On August 04 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 08:20 nafta wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:On August 04 2015 03:11 geript wrote:On August 03 2015 14:27 Gahlo wrote:
So, I'm curious when people will realize how OP Banner is on AP junglers. Isn't the extra 200 health and shield generally more relevant than to 60AP and minion upgrade? Usually Jungle is treated as a roaming Support in that they're responsible for vision and (unless playing a late game carry ala Nidalee) build selflessly. Even historically, jungles rarely build more damage than Jungle Item, one 3k+ item and Last Whisper/Void Staff. As I recall, quite often on Kha'zix you'd still build 2 defensive items (usually Randuin's and Locket/Banshee's Veil). Plus the EHP the shield gives tends to be more important. I think that's why support (who usually get Aegis #2) tend to build Banner more often. It helps with seiging and the EHP theirs will give will tend to be less effective (as they are less likely to be around players with tanky stats). edit: This isn't even taking into account that there's a decent shot at Jungler and/or Top may be more likely to build Zeke's now in specific comps (e.g. with a burst mage). It doesn't provide health, but the burst damage gain between the two champs is significantly higher than Banner would be be statically. Zeke's on Nidalee is likely a strong build after Runeglaive-RoA-Deathcap. With scaling CDR blues, Sorcery, Runeglaive and Zeke's you're essentially at 40% CDR, have more 15 more Mpen because you don't buy Lucidity boots, lose less health/mana in the jungle due to armor and have higher burst damage especially with the multiple casts from switching forms. Keep in mind that the AP junglers that actually build AP(Nidalee and Elise at a competitive level) can be pretty selfish in their build, though we're yet to see how selfish Elise is. In turn, they should be able to dial back more into the competitive build pattern paradigm the jungle is set in without too dramatic a drop. The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. Is there trade offs? Yeah, but at the very least it should be a relevant option when currently it's only viewed as an afterthought. It isn't patently false since it isn't a good item for an ap focused champion.On elise it might(but more than likely not since her ap scaling isn't THAT good) be a decent buy but it definitely is dogshit on nidalee. How is it dogshit on Nidalee? I went over the stat variance between it and Abyssal in a "MR/AP" niche and what little you lose in offensive power on a champion that blows up squishies I think it pretty evened out by what you gain from one of the best auras in the game. On August 04 2015 11:54 geript wrote:On August 04 2015 07:48 Gahlo wrote:
The primary fact that I'm hounding on is that some pros, Meteos in particular, hate Aegis with a passion because a team has to buy one against a team that has a legitimate magic damage threat. One of Nidalee's "weak points" is that she supposedly can't buy an Aegis, which shifts the burden to the support who may prefer to buy other items like Mikaels or Righteous Glory. However, that assertion is patently false due to Banner of Command. Putting it on an AP jungler in stead of an Abyssal gives up 10AP, 10MR, Abyssal Aura in exchange for 200hp, 10% CDR, Legion aura, and Promote. This I don't get. Aegis is a perfectly fine Top buy as well. Perhaps not as tanky as other option, but it's still pretty good and in regards to answering opposing team comps often makes more sense because Support is usually "taxed" 2K between wards and boots; it's another 500 if they want to upgrade to T2 support item. Another 1.9K is 12-18 minutes worth of gold I think putting a Support Aegis roughly around 30 minutes at the earliest (off the top of my head). Whereas 1.9K is about 8-12 minutes for a laner. But that also means you're playing a tanky top laner that doesn't really want Spirit Visage which pretty severely limits the team comp. Granted, these are just ballpark numbers for me but still, I don't see why top laner's shouldn't ever be responsible for Aegis/Locket. I agree with you, Aegis should have more position mobility, but in the end it just doesn't. Let's look at the top lane picks in the meta for the Summer split according to Oracleselixer: Maokai, 185 games, SV to increase healing from passive Rumble, 126 picks, doesn't fit his design Gnar, 73 picks, SV for increased health gained from transformation Hecarim, 69 picks, SV for W regen Fizz, 34 picks, buys SV for botrk Shen, 29 picks, buys SV for increased passive and Q healing Ryze, 22 picks, doesn't fit his design Nautilus, 12 picks, buys SV for...? Vladimir, 12 picks, buys SV for everything Shyvana, 7 picks, buys SV for increased lifesteal off of botrk Renekton, 6 picks, buys SV for Q and R heal Riven, 6 picks, buys SV for lifesteal Dr. Mundo, buys SV for passive and R Cass, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Lulu, 3 picks, doesn't fit design Rek'Sai, 3 picks, buys SV for Fury heal Galio, 2 picks, buys SV for W heal Gragas, 2 picks, doesn't fit design(would buy SV for passive) Jarvan IV, 2 picks, buys Hexdrinker because he needs to go assassin These are all the top champions. The vast majority of them have a heal or health gain in some way that encourages the buy of SV. Only Nautilus doesn't have that incentive, but has only garnered 12 picks because he either a) doesn't fit the meta well at top or b) is far better picked to be a support. On top of that, top laners are trend towards being greedy with their itemization due to a few factors. Primarily, the prevalence of the lane swap strangles their income early game. Secondarily, they don't have a support when lanes level out and the only backup they have when ganked is if the jungler is counterganking in the large majority of situations because the support is usually on the opposite side of the map. Buying auras to buff allies that aren't there to help you doesn't make that purchase worthwhile when it comes at a loss of personal stats. Both Locket and SV have 400 health. SV comes out ahead in MR by 15, and that's a significant margin. Even if we were to assume that the Locket shield was up every fight, the 15 MR would still probably out perform the shield. Your arguments for: Rumble, Ryze, Cass, Lulu, Gragas, and Jarvan all apply to Nidalee, with most of them being much better aegis carriers based on positioning alone. Really? Because most top laners spend a hefty chunk of their time away from teammates where gold spent in auras is wasted while a jungler is almost always around a teammate when fighting starts. But somehow a position that has more selfish itemization standards than the aurabot that is the jungle position makes them better at it because of position. Okay. Nidalee is the least qualified meta jungler to be an aura bot that I can ever remember. If you were to build her as such you would be better off playing virtually any other jungler. Her value is tied up in good earlygame damage if your lane has a snare, and hitting high-impact spears in the midgame. Her teamfights positioning is also such that she will less often be in aura range than those other champions you mentioned. Banner Eve, Nunu, Elise, Gragas are all certainly better, and even Lee Sin is likely a better banner user. Having a situational singular aura does not an aurabot make. Nor did I say this was a rush after Runeglaive situation. In slot it contend with Abysal and have comparable AP. The hefty amount of Nidalee's squishy bursting power comes out of the M Reduction aura range anyway and she'll tend to be with her team in a poking formation while softening targets. Nobody is arguing that those other junglers can't buy an Aegis or that they are better at carrying one. What I'm saying is that Nidalee shouldn't be precluded from being able to pick one up when it builds into an item that's pretty decent on her. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fyaLHF0Y-you-do-realize-how-much-you-have-to-do-to-rebalance-the-game-after-nerfing-armor?comment=00010000+ Show Spoiler + Frozen Heart: 2600g (was 2450g), 90 Armor (was 100 Armor).
Banshee's: 2700g (was 2750g), 60 MR (was 55 MR), now builds from Crystalline Bracer instead of Ruby Crystal (total cost still the same, so combine cost's cheaper).
Thornmail: 2300g (was 2100g), now reflects 15% damage + 25% of your bonus Armor (was 30% damage). Rewards using Thornmail with other armor effects, allows the damage reflect to still be significant against enemies dealing much of their damage through on hit effects instead of raw auto attack damage (e.g. Vayne). Significantly weaker as a sole Armor item however. This is about as big as this set of changes gets by the way, most of the others are just stat adjustments, not functionality changes. Thornmail reflected on hit damage too. This sounds like a very massive change to an item keeping autoattacking champions in a delicate check. So before it would reflect 180 magic dps to someone with 600 dps. Now it'll reflect 90+25*(their attack speed) if Thornmail was your only armor source. Straight nerf. Yeah good luck killing their Yi as fucking Maokai with your Randuins + Frozen Heart, oh wait you don't have enough damage for their health pool. Or if you weren't a tank Thornmail would give you that chance to duel someone who was just slightly out of range because it was the best dueling item in the game. People already pick into 3 ADC team comps at my ELO, does Riot need to make it 4 ADC per team? Frozen Heart's nerf is huge. Even if you remove the mana Frozen heart is cost efficient. But it's also one of the only 20% CDR items which means people will still have to build it. Straight nerf to tanks.
Thornmail never reflected on hit damage.
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rito has successfully destroyed my entire competitive champ pool at this point. gangplank and fiora remakes. Huge FH nerf making nasus a suspect pick against any AD top now and weaker in general. blitzcrank changes make him unfun to play as just like the old one was with the stupid self slow. All i have left is bard, trundle, and my devourer junglers which is more of a gimmick phase then an actual champ pool. RIP
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EPT
