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On July 31 2015 14:37 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote:
Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion. Because he loses games. In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games. Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36% The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that 1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked. 2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup]
I feel like this is an unsolvable mystery:
Why is this champion ridiculous when played by shitty Gold players, and Faker, but not anyone in between?
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On July 31 2015 14:42 Caiada wrote:
Viktor's fantastic because Sivir's fantastic and Kali was fantastic. People think Viktor's great in any old matchup; they lose.
Kalista has a 64% win rate in the summer. In the regular season that is 63% in Korea, 73% in China, 62% in NA and 61% in EU. Viktor has never been good against Kalista (she can jump out of his lasers and out of his W).
Sivir has a 56% win rate in the summer. Though i don't have any specific Viktor vs Sivir numbers(I don't want to search through the 195 games that Viktor was played in Summer S5) i don't think that he is going to do particularly well against her though it does seem like he should in theory (as Viktor is very good against a linear "run at" team, this should depend on the other champions sivir brings with her. More often than not the extra sivir mobility will bring more lockdown and damage which will catch Viktor out)
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On July 31 2015 14:50 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 14:37 Goumindong wrote:On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote:
Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion. Because he loses games. In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games. Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36% The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that 1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked. 2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup] I feel like this is an unsolvable mystery: Why is this champion ridiculous when played by shitty Gold players, and Faker, but not anyone in between?
Shitty gold players don't dodge lasers. Faker doesnt miss lasers.
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On July 31 2015 14:55 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 14:50 cLutZ wrote:On July 31 2015 14:37 Goumindong wrote:On July 31 2015 10:16 cLutZ wrote:
Im still confused why Viktor is not 100% LCS pick/ban. You can basically miss every lazer and be a serviceable champion. Because he loses games. In Season 5 he has a 46% ish win rate. In Season 5 Summer a 43% ish win rate. He has below 50% win rate in every regular season league except for the Spring LPL. In NA Summer LCS he has a 19% win rate in 21 games. In EU Summer LCS he has a 36% ish win rate in 22 games. In Summer LPL he has a 48.5% win rate in 68 played games. In Summer LCK he has a 45% win rate in 77 games. Of all the games including playoff game and international competitions he only has a positive win rate in China at 51%. His global NA LCS win rate is 19.2%. His EU LCS win rate is 36% The real question is probably "why is Vitkor picked if he just keeps losing" and the answer is probably that 1) He actually is decent against Azir. And Azir is another champion which is likely to be first picked. 2) He looks like he is valuable against a number of mids because he can still farm regardless of the matchup. So if you expect to get wrecked in the mid lane you can pick Viktor and hope to win the team fight phase from an opposing error. Unfortunately there are a lot better champions for this, like Kog'Maw, or Varus, or Orianna. [This also has the effect of pulling his win rate down, because worse teams are picking him. But at the same time, its still not a great pickup] I feel like this is an unsolvable mystery: Why is this champion ridiculous when played by shitty Gold players, and Faker, but not anyone in between? Shitty gold players don't dodge lasers. Faker doesnt miss lasers.
So thats why gold players always say they're Faker...Mind blown.
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On July 31 2015 14:51 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 14:42 Caiada wrote:
Viktor's fantastic because Sivir's fantastic and Kali was fantastic. People think Viktor's great in any old matchup; they lose. Kalista has a 64% win rate in the summer. In the regular season that is 63% in Korea, 73% in China, 62% in NA and 61% in EU. Viktor has never been good against Kalista (she can jump out of his lasers and out of his W). Sivir has a 56% win rate in the summer. Though i don't have any specific Viktor vs Sivir numbers(I don't want to search through the 195 games that Viktor was played in Summer S5) i don't think that he is going to do particularly well against her though it does seem like he should in theory (as Viktor is very good against a linear "run at" team, this should depend on the other champions sivir brings with her. More often than not the extra sivir mobility will bring more lockdown and damage which will catch Viktor out)
Oh, sorry, I meant both on the same team. Viktor/Kali has something hilarious like 70%, and Sivir/Viktor's at a respectable 46% given what Viktor's winrate alone is.
For comparison, his other most picked combos are Vayne/Corki/Lucian, who all pair horribly with him and are all basically sub-30%. Vayne/Viktor has won 2 games out of *15*. Corki's the highest of the 3 and is 7/25.
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Makes sense. I don't like Vik with sivir but do like him with kalista. Because you can just drop your w on top of somoen trying to kill kalista and you win the fight.
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Because you need champions who can take the heat when playing Viktor, he's still super squishy and relies on either killing you first, opening up another "safe" area in the vincinity, or walking away using Ghost or Q augment.
Of course it doesn't work well with Vayne in general since she needs the same thing (or for people to split up so she can keep 1v1ing one after the other), which reduces your options for the other picks.
And Sivir is better when you have the lockdown/burst to go with her. Viktor's E is hard to hit at max range against someone who's running away, his W is delayed, and a bunch of his ult damage is in the periodic AoE effect.
It works better with Kalista because W's zone control helps her, and because you need to commit a bunch of cc on her, you can't chase her. Which means less cc on Viktor, making it easier to skirt the edges of the fight. You also tend to want to burst Kalista first because she becomes that much harder to kill after the initiation stage.
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my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now
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If you want an example of why Viktor has a low winrate and isn't actually that easy to fit in a draft, go watch TSM's games with him.
But with Sivir/Kali/Ashe and a Mao or Shen, and ADCs/Tops that actually apply threat, he's undoubtedly the best mid in the game right now.
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On July 31 2015 23:08 kongoline wrote:
my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now
"Viktor doesn't pair that well with Sivir, actually"
"hurr durr stop trying to say Viktor is shit hurr durr"
I spend less time talking about Viktor than you do whining that x champion is broken or x champion you like was gutted in the past. Go check your doormat and give me a break if you can't read properly.
Also note that because there is little diversity in the various AD tiers, I dunno how significant it'd be to do stats involving "combos" of them and other champions? Sivir's a bit different because of her ult, but Kalista, Corki, etc. are what's picked because they're clear above the rest atm.
Kinda how it'd have been hard to make stats on combos including Gragas and Sejuani when pretty much only these were played, and Rek'Sai when one was banned.
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Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league.
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On July 31 2015 23:39 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 23:08 kongoline wrote:
my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now "Viktor doesn't pair that well with Sivir, actually" "hurr durr stop trying to say Viktor is shit hurr durr" I spend less time talking about Viktor than you do whining that x champion is broken or x champion you like was gutted in the past. Go check your doormat and give me a break if you can't read properly. Also note that because there is little diversity in the various AD tiers, I dunno how significant it'd be to do stats involving "combos" of them and other champions? Sivir's a bit different because of her ult, but Kalista, Corki, etc. are what's picked because they're clear above the rest atm. Kinda how it'd have been hard to make stats on combos including Gragas and Sejuani when pretty much only these were played, and Rek'Sai when one was banned.
LMAO must be nice to be stuck in depth of autism, u have 22k posts and half of them are whinning
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote:
Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league.
He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK. Consistent with oracleselixir stats.
Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so, he's better now, along with aforementioned draft issues. LPL tries him with everything because billions of games, and I don't really hold LCK drafting in high regard anymore unless it's SKT/KT/CJ.
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On August 01 2015 00:02 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote:
Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league. He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK. Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so.
And?The champ is really good right now don't think anyone can deny that.Easily top 3.Lucian used to have 30% win rate yet was the 2nd best adc.Now he is just average and is 1/18 or w/e it was in the west.It really doesn't mean anything.
Would even say that ban+pick rate is more important than winrate.
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On August 01 2015 00:04 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 00:02 Caiada wrote:On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote:
Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league. He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK. Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so. And?The champ is really good right now don't think anyone can deny that.Easily top 3.Lucian used to have 30% win rate yet was the 2nd best adc.Now he is just average and is 1/18 or w/e it was in the west.It really doesn't mean anything. Would even say that ban+pick rate is more important than winrate.
You just said LCS, like they're somehow not statistically relevant, when clearly Viktor is having the same sort of issues in Chinese/Korean LoL too.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to ignore statistics without at least trying to understand the context.
On July 31 2015 23:39 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2015 23:08 kongoline wrote:
my god u are really trying hard to convince everybody how weak is viktor when hes in fact top3 mid right now "Viktor doesn't pair that well with Sivir, actually" "hurr durr stop trying to say Viktor is shit hurr durr" I spend less time talking about Viktor than you do whining that x champion is broken or x champion you like was gutted in the past. Go check your doormat and give me a break if you can't read properly. Also note that because there is little diversity in the various AD tiers, I dunno how significant it'd be to do stats involving "combos" of them and other champions? Sivir's a bit different because of her ult, but Kalista, Corki, etc. are what's picked because they're clear above the rest atm. Kinda how it'd have been hard to make stats on combos including Gragas and Sejuani when pretty much only these were played, and Rek'Sai when one was banned.
I thought about that, but the Viktor/Kali stat was significant enough to notice, and especially lately, people have picked a lot of Vayne/Corki/Kog, and I think all 4 are about as good as each other at the moment. As much as I hate admitting Vayne is good.
They also pick a lot of Lucian, which I don't like with anyone. I think ADC is probably the most stubborn role for picks.
Of course you've gotta take all these with some skepticism, but that's most stats. Drafting outside of like 5 teams in the world is in a shit state right now.
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I don't see a point in looking at statics when I don't even know how often the team that was supposed to win/lose picks him.Watching the games in which he is played helps a lot more than looking at his stats.Just because a champ has 33% win rate doesn't mean it is because the champs is bad or w/e there are wayyyy too many variables for this to be relevant.
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On August 01 2015 00:30 nafta wrote:
I don't see a point in looking at statics when I don't even know how often the team that was supposed to win/lose picks him.Watching the games in which he is played helps a lot more than looking at his stats.Just because a champ has 33% win rate doesn't mean it is because the champs is bad or w/e there are wayyyy too many variables for this to be relevant.
True. But that's more of an individual draft thing, and just about every top tier mid right now has a decent chunk of Viktor games. There's ~220 picks of Viktor in Summer.
It's obviously subjective, and I'm not arguing he's weak. But it's complicated and all statistics are relevant. It's a question of how much, which smarter drafters than me should be working through instead of (as completely unbiased example) letting Bjergsen pick him all the time, Locodoco.
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Viktor stats in LCK suggest he's fine to good. SKT and KOO pick Viktor a ton, and are 14-1 (compared to 52-17 overall). The other four good teams pick Viktor quite a bit and are 16-15 (compared to 86-62 overall). The bottom four teams pick Viktor quite a bit, and are a combined 5-25 with Viktor (compared to 42-100 overall). So for the top 6 teams Viktor is fine (even if you exclude SKT and KOO he's not bad), for the bottom 4 he's actually worse than their performance with other mids.
Note that I'm going by the statistics displayed on the individual player pages on lol.esportspedia; these numbers seem to disagree with the Viktor stats on the Statistics page for the LCK summer split as a whole (which is partly why Viktor looks so bad if you look there). I'm too lazy to check for sure which is correct (I'm not looking through 175 total games), but I think the player pages are right and the overall statistics page is wrong. The player pages have Viktor at 35-41, not 25-48.
Also it doesn't seem to include last night's games at least, but that should be ok; arbitrary endpoints are arbitrary anyway.
edit: Also Viktor has only lost one more game than he's won in LPL, by the same method. 31-32 overall.
edit2: This site http://www.gamesoflegends.com/tournament/stats.php?id=LPL Summer 2015 agrees with the player page numbers from lol.esportspedia, so I think the overall statistics pages are just wrong for Viktor, somehow. ~50% winrate in both LPL and LCK, not the silly 30% numbers that lol.esportspedia tries to claim. Faulty data!
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Wickd is saying GP is enabled for CS but he is currently disabled for Live, lol.
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On August 01 2015 00:04 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 00:02 Caiada wrote:On July 31 2015 23:44 nafta wrote:
Why look at stats in lcs when it has been proven so many times they don't mean shit?Now even less because there are more teams in the league. He's 37% in LPL; 33.3% in LCK. Of course, that's all pre-5.14, where his big counter got nerfed, so. And?The champ is really good right now don't think anyone can deny that.Easily top 3.Lucian used to have 30% win rate yet was the 2nd best adc.Now he is just average and is 1/18 or w/e it was in the west.It really doesn't mean anything.
Would even say that ban+pick rate is more important than winrate.
I agree with this completely. Teams practice a ton and understand the game in general better than any of us. If they decide to pick or ban a champ they believe it to be strong and are probably right.
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EPT
