EPT[Patch 5.14] Bilgewater General Discussion - Page 35
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On August 01 2015 04:12 Caiada wrote: Probably because "Buy this skin to play this champ!" is a bad look. I interpreted it as "every time you play GP it's always spooky skin, no purchase required" | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 01 2015 02:16 crate wrote: Excluding LPL is bad, and oracleselixir doesn't let me do a lot of things that I want (it seems good if all you want is aggregate data across all leagues, but for a few reasons I would suggest that that is not ideal). This gamesoflegends site seems pretty good, assuming its data is good (which as far as I can tell it is). Viktor's stats seem about what I would expect if you think he's strong in LPL/LCK, for a few reasons. 1) In NA, the bad teams picked Viktor a lot more than the good teams. TL played Viktor twice; CLG, GV, and TiP didn't play Viktor at all; Dig played Viktor once; and TSM three times. So, the non-playoff teams (and NA's non-playoff teams had really bad records this split) played Viktor a lot more. You can argue about whether Viktor caused the losses also, of course (perhaps the bad teams were bad because they played Viktor), but given that he's good in the two best leagues in the world (and also in LMS based on the stats I could find) I would suggest that it's not a problem with the champion being bad per se. It does support Viktor being bad in LCS, though. (The EU picks are less skewed in this fashion; I would suggest that the "true" NA winrate of Viktor is similar to the "true" EU winrate for Viktor, though figuring out how to properly regress LoL winrates is something I do not want to spend time on right now.) 2) This is admittedly not based on data I have at hand (unfortunately it's really obnoxious to try to gather this data, since afaik you'd have to do it manually, and I'm pretty sure no one has tracked this) but anecdotally it seems that LPL and LCK mids roam around the map more often earlier in the game than LCS mids, and that's where a lot of Viktor's power comes from. If you're just trying to suggest that Viktor is bad in the LCS, I'd believe that and agree; I don't think the teams in LCS leverage his strengths very well in general (and the teams agree that he's not great in LCS; he's rarely banned and not highly contested). But I think he's a pretty strong pick if you can do so. The fact that he's at near 50% winrate and highly contested in both LPL and LCK suggests that he's not weak in LCK and LPL. edit: also I should probably explicitly state that I assume that LPL and LCK are overall stronger than either EU or NA LCS. Eh. We're going into "the stats will confirm whatever bias you have" territory here. You can say that Viktor only has a low win rate because bad teams pick him. You can say that Viktor only wins at all because good teams pick him and they would win otherwise. You can say that bad teams pick Viktor and do even worse because he is bad. Because of this its better, in my opinion, to use the overall stats a measure of "strength". And this puts Viktor solidly in the "kinda not very good" category, especially given how many games he has played. He doesn't get reasonably close to a 50% win rate despite being picked quite a bit. And 50% is your borderline "average" champion. Of the 20 champions which have seen over 100 games played in Summer 2015 Viktor has the lowest win%[which includes playoffs and SEA, not including these he would be lower] at 44% tied with Corki and Nautilus. Of these champions there are only 7 who are below 50%. (Corki, Nautilus, Viktor, Evelyn, Azir, Rumble, Hecarim). You can say he is average, maybe. But not strong. Kalista is strong. 107 Picks, 63% win, 447 bans. Kog'Maw is strong 78 picks, 62% win. Twisted Fate is strong 66 picks, 59% win. Sivir is strong, 339 picks 57% win Then again, there aren't a lot of mids which have really big win%s we can be confident in. Which means that either mid is kind of not impactful or that the level of mids is so close its not worth taking one over the other. For instance Jungle has three clear winners in Ekko, RekSai, and Gragas; but all three are within 1% of win to each other(51,50,50) so its not worth worrying about unless you can guarantee one of them and the other two are banned. Mid seems like it should be the same way, but Lulu and Kog, and Ezreal, and TF, and Cassio all have goodish win rates with decent pick numbers. Even if we throw some of those out due to changes during the summer split that is still a lot of power which you leave on the table by picking Viktor, so you better have a damned good reason* *One example might be the most recent LPL games, where Viktor was picked with Graves (twice i think) to abuse the overlapping or chained zone control. With both of them they controlled two chokes at once, or prevented an enemy from realizing he was going to get Viktor'd thus negating a lot of the disadvantages of both champions. Before today Graves was 1/22 in the summer[never played with Vik]. And he got 1 or 2 wins with Viktor tonight so maybe that was a key to both. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
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crate
United States2474 Posts
Goumindong wrote: stuff, generally about Viktor For strength of schedule if you missed it I made a blog post about it here; it's important for NA but Viktor still isn't good in LCS (I expected a bigger difference before I did the calculations). He performs almost exactly average-for-actually-selected midlaners in LPL (I didn't do LCK data), and he is the second-most-banned midlaner (behind Azir) in LPL, 4th (behind Azir, Leblanc, Cassio) in LCK. Additionally, Viktor's winrate in LPL/LCK is basically identical to Azir's across the two leagues combined; both are at 47%. Azir has been a bit more successful than Viktor in LCK, Viktor a bit more successful than Azir in LPL*. Because Azir has more bans (something I haven't spent time figuring out how to incorporate, mathematically) and because he's been more successful in other regions I would agree that Azir is stronger than Viktor, but how much stronger pretty heavily depends on how much a ban is worth. *I didn't look at strength-of-schedule considerations for Azir or LCK Viktor yet, so this might not actually be true, since I'm just using unadjusted winrate. Bringing up Kog'Maw is interesting, because he's actually been used primarily as a midlaner in LCS and almost entirely (all but 2 games total) in a duo lane in LPL/LCK. I will suggest that mid Kog and duo-lane Kog are different enough that they should be treated as 2 separate champions (completely separate build paths, for one thing), though you can disagree with me and I won't argue. Duo-lane Kog is 3-3 in NA LCS and 2-4 in EU LCS; he's 21-12 in LCK and 3-5 in LPL. So, pretty much entirely an LCK pick. Midlane Kog is 0-1 in LPL, 1-0 in LCK; he's 9-2 in NA LCS, and 7-3 in EU LCS. Almost entirely an LCS pick. We know that all four regions have players who can play mid Kog just fine, and we know that all four regions have players who can play botlane Kog just fine also. So it's not a case of the pick being good but the players not knowing how to play it. Since midlane Kog isn't used in LPL/LCK, the possible conclusions are either that he's not actually good in LPL/LCK (i.e. the teams are correct in believing that mid Kog is not worth picking), or that somehow every team missed the boat on the pick (every single team is wrong and mid Kog is actually good in LPL/LCK). I find the latter conclusion unlikely. The same applies for botlane Kog outside of Korea. This suggests to me that you can't just blindly use stats from all leagues together, since there are some differences in how teams play that make certain champions actually better or actually worse. It's of course possible that, for instance, LCK just has better bot-lane Kog'Maw players than other regions; I would say this is one of the likely causes of the pick being stronger in Korea than elsewhere (other possibilities being things like jungle gank timings and midlane roams etc.). If your entire region has no good Kog players, then Kog isn't a strong pick within that region, even if as a champion he's just fine. --- My main point was that Caiada's stats from earlier in this topic (post 653 at least) are flat wrong (37% LPL and 33% winrate in LCK for Viktor are not true; he's at 49% in LPL and 46% in LCK; I'm pretty sure Caiada's numbers came from the incorrect lol.esportspedia pages) and out-of-context (while his LPL/LCS winrate combined is not good, it's because he's been so terrible in LCS despite being fine in LCK). I probably shouldn't have said anything about LCS Viktor winrate that wasn't coming from the stats background, but I do things like that a lot. Anyway this is probably enough on this subject in this thread, I'll take further discussion to my blog when I plug in some more numbers. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
"Hey how about a TF vs. Graves event?" "Great, idea, but where?" "How about ARAM. You know, gold on ARAM" | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
I would also agree with you that Mid Kog is very different than bot Kog. I just didn't recall seeing a lot of bot Kog when watching the LPL. But i hadn't payed much attention to it and just figured that he was used mid more than bot. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
hue... | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I know they would give me automatic responses from support section if I wanted to get rid of that ban and nothing would be done unless my thread would blow up on Reddit (that's pathetic, btw) Between that sentence and the Riot response, that's about as wrecked as you can get. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On August 01 2015 10:37 cLutZ wrote: This TF vs. Graves event is like a bad Jim Gaffagin joke. "Hey how about a TF vs. Graves event?" "Great, idea, but where?" "How about ARAM. You know, gold on ARAM" I didn't find it that bad but then again I play aram all the time. the only possibly annoying part was the three wins because I've had like 8-10 game losing streaks before(fortunately didn't happen this time). | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 01 2015 11:59 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: I didn't find it that bad but then again I play aram all the time. the only possibly annoying part was the three wins because I've had like 8-10 game losing streaks before(fortunately didn't happen this time). Its just so random, like they asked a random guy who was hungover for his ideas, then implemented them. | ||
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On August 01 2015 11:37 Sufficiency wrote: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3fbw2a/i_just_got_a_fake_email_about_being_banned_for/ctnfoe6 hue... lol. OP got owned pretty hard, hahah. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
This lane is hilarious | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
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justiceknight
Singapore5741 Posts
On August 01 2015 17:01 JonnyLaw wrote: The third grave/tf quest seems worst. Win two brawler games then play four more after those wins? Six minimum ick. u havent seen TF's quest... | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
year decades) of playing with a shtocssllerr have dconditinsed me to blindly follows any and all calls This is bad fot eosloquee because I go in opn veery call and die ewhyerwever someone onr my team wouldn have died alone wat do My waridngi sl ike 6x as good as optherp laysers at my level thoguh edit 1: this keybaord sucks | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On August 01 2015 18:11 Osmoses wrote: Oh good, for a second there I thought you were having a stroke. You're alright<3 #hastasgs in hearts | ||
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