EPT[Patch 5.13] Tahm Kench General Discussion - Page 34
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 19 2015 11:31 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what Thorin said for 2 hours, but Regi is the best legacy owner in the LCS and only TL has an argument to be above him overall in NA (nothing to do with LOL, purely based on esports pedigree), and only Fnatic in EU (certainly the best LCS ownership group by an entire teir). Compared to the Hotshot, the Dig group, original Curse, etc he makes them all look like fools. C9 really failed its first major test as a group, and stuff like Gravity and TiP have never had to make real choices. Id agree with that. The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions. Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should. You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it... Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Its a two damage dealer pick comp and two damage dealers are Corki and Twisted Fate... Annie picked into Mao, Nidalee, and Janna [I.E. no good pick targets because its Mao or people standing behind him] which also forces you into a two damage comp because now Shen is guaranteed top and you've already got Gragas. You've either got to pick a damage jungler here or a damage top laner and its not like rumble wasn't open or shyvanna or kayle in the jungle roles! Then to top it off, they've got a guaranteed two damage magic damage stacked comp and they pick TF. OK, i get it, utilize the double global ultimate, make picks and snowball. But you've got no one to do damage when you make that double global pick! Shen and TF coming in doesn't cut it unless they come in to provide CC for a champion that actually does a lot of damage. And all the enemy team has to do is build one MR item and the rest of your team does nothing! Frankly TSM, besides trying to pick Maokai a lot, played out of their mind on the map to stay in that game. But they never had a chance because they were a pick comp that didn't have a way to kill the targets they picked, they were single damage type with two low damage champions* and no lategame scaling playing into three damage high peel. *Well Corki has great mid game damage, but is mainly good for siege/poke. He relies too much on magic damage to make him powerful to be considered "high damage" in a composition which is all magic damage dealers. Had say, Zed been picked he could have been OK. You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it... Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call. Yea, but LeBron did basically coach the Cavaliers this season.[and did damned well at it too]. The reason LBJ was coaching the Cavs is the same reason why Loco doesn't have authority on TSM. Loco doesn't know what he is doing. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On July 18 2015 17:30 iCanada wrote: nah, the problem with Karthus is that shit like Braum, Mao, Graggy, Reksai, etc exist: Mobile Tank Lines that have hard CC and gap closers. Without TP he will never get in a place where he can die and do damage to high priority targets in a fight. Also, I just did some Irelia testing, Sated Devourer Irelia can Solo baron with a Frozen heart & Ninja Tabis. Might not need the Ninja Tabi, I dunno was a close fight. I Double smited and had a pot ticking. but I think in an actual game, if you could have one meat shield with you it'd be easy to pull off. /shrug I remember trying to make Irelia work in the Jungle years ago, and I remember her just getting torn to shreds in the jungle in like S2. Maybe she was just really slow with her lack of AoE. Not sure, just remember thinking she had PvE limits, and therefore couldn't jungle. Weird to me, cuz now she rips through it at nearly full HP, at a relatively solid speed. With pussy PvE runes, I finished a full clear completely healthy, can probably Run Movespeed Quints. Which is a short list of champions now a days that I like to use movespeed quints on in the jungle. I think she could likely even be a relatively high tier Cinderhulk jungler too (although maybe not, might have a harder time ganking with the slower clear). Clears pretty well, ganks pretty well, has solid control, is flexible as a champion, gets free tenacity. When you Q a minion to gap close and refresh Q, it is real real rough for the laner. Get the slow, and even if they flash you right on their nuts still. I like her. Thank you Sob3k. Yeah you would have had to have tried her sometime in S1 or early S2. I think her sustain has been ok since then if you max W. I think Irelia just didn't have a jungling kit like someone like Nocturne or Rengar who can bypass wards, or Rek'Sai who has the manueverability to move around the map to gank, or the clear speeds of Shyvana or Phoenix Udyr. So since she was a jack of all trades, master of none, she didn't see play in the jungle. She's great in top where she's a great duelist and has the chasing potential to deal with ranged tops. She was balanced for top lane so her winrate was just higher there than in the jungle. Now that Sated exists though, she has better scaling with smite than she did before. So now she's actually worth picking as a jungler. I tried a Sated Jax and felt really strong, and I feel like Irelia and Jax play similarly. I think Volibear gets the most potential dps increase from Sated. But in the past I know I've had difficulty surviving fights to make use of on-hit builds. Like I often felt squishy just building one offensive item because I didn't have an instant gap closer to get to priority targets. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 19 2015 11:50 iCanada wrote: Id agree with that. The biggest thing Thorin is that a coach needs 100% authority. I don't really see how it's fair to Loco that he has doesn't have the final say in pick / bans and macro level strategy and tactic decisions. Basically he said esports clubs souks have the same structure as a pro sports team; how can you gave your players have a higher authority than your coach? To me that's a joke. If the coach doesn't have 100% authority then you have no point in having them imo... you have players then taking more in their plate than they should. You never saw Jordan devising offensive and defensive systems on his own. You never saw Gretzky drawing up power play formations. You don't see Allstar quarterbacks picking whether they should go for broke on the 4th down or just punt it... Why does TSM (and most western esports clubs for that matter) have their players making these decisions? That's not to say they shouldn't have input, but it should be the coaches call. I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent. Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic? | ||
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you. He's got pretty shitty winrates. Just play more games as him or skip playing him until his inevitable buffs. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 19 2015 12:14 cLutZ wrote: I don't know what they pay Locodoco. However, this is one of America's structural Esports disadvantages. To get a competent coach that you would want to elevate above the players you are talking at least $80k. In California, thats actually $120k (why I thought Curse's great move was going to Vegas for cheaper everything, at least as an experiment). That is money that can't go to players, and I don't know what the tradeoff is in the end. Those numbers are huge compared to South Korea and China. In addition, LOL-specifically NA doesn't have the home-grown talent, so you need to dedicate even more money to buying the best domestic, and importing the best foreign talent. Just seems to me that the standards some in NA set are higher than the money and native talent in NA can achieve. Like, could an all-star team of NA players that worked together from December-Worlds even compete with SKT? EDG? Fnatic? If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income. TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well. I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.= I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
On July 19 2015 12:15 AsianEcksDragon wrote: Does anyone know how to play Tahm Kench? I feel so useless in lane and in teamfight. I rarely get to use my three stack mechanics. Missing one Q pretty much means you failed to peel and the teammate you're trying to protect as well as whomever is diving him is gonna runaway from you. I actually hate support Tahm, but as a farming top laner I find that he has an absurdly strong scaling passive. In the category of hyper lategame tanks, he might be the highest damaging one. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
In general, every item you buy should have HP. RG/Randuin's/SV->Sunfire or BV->Frozen Mallet. People are building RoA on him. No wonder his winrate's shit. Same with Warmog's. Mallet's better in every way, and RoA is too stupid for words. If you, for some awful reason, wanted AP, go build a Rylai's. From there, it's mostly who you eat. W is basically his whole kit. There's a lot of little shit you can do. Pick a teammate up to get a speed buff for you both, W any melee jumping on your carries' face. W to chunk someone who was near you too long. Spit out minions/jungle monsters for a fuckton of damage in lane or any lane/jungle fight. W and Q also do not consume the stacks of his passive. I'm torn between Q and W level in bot. W's more damage and 4 seconds off the CD, but the Q slow is nice. Leaning towards W. In top, I'd almost always go W. Fight around the wave. Any trade they take is probably going to suck; if you get two AAs and a Q/W off, congratulations, you win the lane. You'll also single-handedly turn most any countergank situation if they've let you get three stacks. In general, I don't think he's a versatile champ. But what he's good at (extended fights, having a global, saving people), he's pretty good at. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On July 19 2015 12:52 Ketara wrote: Why aren't people playing tahm jungle? Because rito said he is a support. Lol. I also think he's really vulnerable in solo queue. Terrifyingly bad first clear. That being said, I think he's a fabulous jungler. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Scip plz. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 19 2015 12:36 iCanada wrote: If you think TSM can't afford that than I dont know what to tell you. The TSM brand is incredibly popular... they get millions of page views every month, they sell a ton of merchandise... I know TSM likely gets cuts of its players streaming income. TSM has like a metric ton of corporate sponsors as well. I bet Regi could easily poach coaching staff or afford to have an executive structure like pro sports. Obviously it would be smaller than what you see on an NFL team, but like paying 5 to 6 staffers is not unreasonable, especially for how much success it could bring them.= I also think they should be doing more to develop new talent. You don't have to pay major money to recruit the best available, create a farm system.... you know like every pro sport club ever. Here is something: Esports money. That I fully admit I know nothing about. But i think developing new talent might be harder than you do. | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Tried ganking a Tahm top. His tankiness is bs. Either you and your ally need to time your burst simultaneously or he'll activate his E shield and mitigate all your burst. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On July 19 2015 14:02 obesechicken13 wrote: I don't know much about Tahm since I haven't played him, but doesn't the restriction on his trades requiring him get 3 stacks of his passive to swallow an enemy make it hard for him to come ahead of small harass trades? Tried ganking a Tahm top. His tankiness is bs. Either you and your ally need to time your burst simultaneously or he'll activate his E shield and mitigate all your burst. small trade: auto-Q-auto eat | ||
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