EPTWhat struck me the most from loco was him saying that vi scales well when you are comparing her to gragas lol
[Patch 5.13] Tahm Kench General Discussion - Page 31
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
What struck me the most from loco was him saying that vi scales well when you are comparing her to gragas lol | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
In anything Bjergsen came off a somewhat overly selfconfident and Locodoco being too nice a guy. Think Reginald and Locodoco will make a great coaching pair, at first glance their personalities seem to balance each other extremely well. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
Bjergsen picked Ezreal despite Locodoco (and his team, or well at least Santorin) wanted him to pick Orianna, made him come off a bit too selfish about forcing the Ezreal pick through You make it sound like they had a big discussion during the draft phase which there is no indication of. Loco even phrased it like this "before the game I asked him about the Azir vs Ez matchup". That clearly implies that Bjergsen convinced Loco Ez was the better pick, and Loco was too easily convinced I really can't believe how many people lack critical skills when listening to the perspective of a guy who clearly has an interest putting blaim away from himself. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
Loco v Bjerg: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3jp0 Loco's place on TSM: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn3jq6 | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On July 18 2015 06:45 Hider wrote: You make it sound like they had a big discussion during the draft phase which there is no indication of. I really can't believe how many people lack critical skills when listening to the perspective of a guy who clearly has an interest putting blaim away from himself. They both have an interest in putting the blaim away from themselves. Bjergsen should have enough respect for his coach to follow his call, and Locodoco should demand this respect. It is really pretty basic in high level competitive sports that you respect what ever your coach calls you, that being solo or team sports. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
- Loco's authority is not above the players. In one sentence, why TSM is bad. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On July 18 2015 07:23 Jek wrote: They both have an interest in putting the blaim away from themselves. Why are you bringing this up when Bjergsen wasn't even commenting on it (this should also ring bells - if Bjergsen had been a primadonna during the pick/ban-phase, then the postgame discussion would have been very different). We only hear Loco's discussion with Regi. When Bjergsen just convinces Loco that he should pick Ez into Azir (through arguments) that's not Bjergsen being a primadonna. That's just Bjergsen informing Loco about matchup strenghts/having a discussions, and Loco made a bad decision based on the available information. Loco is responsible for the teamcomp unless the players picks against the will of Loco which clearly wasn't what happened here (and unless the head coach is really just an analyst, which is the case in some teams but not for TSM). Careful studying of the video clearly indicates that. Also remember all the times Loco has told the team after a game "I said you should have done XX, but you didn't". This didn't even occur after this game, thus nothing indicates that Loco had told Bjergsen during draft phase to pick Orianna (or even priorly). Instead it seemed that Loco just brought it up as a suggestion prior to the game and Bjergsen convinced him not to do it. Im not really a fan of what Regi has done in the past, but it's clear that he is a much more analytical guy than Loco. If you can argue throughouly why you should do XX instead of YY, then you can convince most people. Nothing in this video indicates that Loco explained to Bjergsen the consequences of him picking Ez. Bjergsen should have enough respect for his coach to follow his call THERE WAS NO CALL!!! A call would be if Loco during the pick/ban phase (or directly prior to that) - after having gathered and assesed the available information - ordered Bjergsen to pick Orianna. Instead, it's clear that they just had a discussion about it prior to the game, and Bjergsen convinced him (through arguments) to not do it. Otherwise Loco wouldn't say the following: Just before the game I asked him about the Azir vs Ez matchup. No a call would be him saying the following: Prior to the game I told him to pick Ori, but he didn't I don't blame Bjergsen for not being an expert on teamcompositions because that's not really his job. His job is to play well and inform the coach about specific matchups. The coach's job is then to collect and analyze all that information and make the best possible decisions. Loco clearly hasn't been capable of that and as a consequence he has - effectively - been demoted to assitant coach. | ||
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Well, their coaches are Loco and Reginald. You mean in one sentence why TSM even manage to be in the upper half of NA LCS? :D | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
On July 18 2015 07:31 Scip wrote: Well, their coaches are Loco and Reginald. You mean in one sentence why TSM even manage to be in the upper half of NA LCS? :D On one hand, it's amazing that players as bad as WildTurtle and Santorin managed to win IEM. On the other hand, it's amazing anybody coached primarily by Locodoco won any game, ever. | ||
Poopi
France13023 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On July 18 2015 07:38 Poopi wrote: Why is Loco considered so bad at coaching? A lot of people that don't know dick about coaching think the only way to effectively coach is to be a hardass. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
The whole point of a coach, especially in a game as mechanics- and synergy-centric as league, is so that your players do not have to focus on shit outside of mechanics and synergy. You give them a general strategy, especially a pick-ban strategy, and they focus on executing it and having the mechanics to play at a high enough level for what you picked to be relevant. It's not just a sixth voice to bounce shit off of. Underselling coaching is the quickest way to make sure your team sucks vs any relevant team. He should be researching heavily, he should know Warmog's is terrifically inefficient, he should know that an Olaf ban over Azir is a poor strategy. He should know that Ez has lost every lane he's ever been in, no matter what Bjerg says. It'd be foolish to blame everything on hierarchy, but as Regi says (I've got a lot of respect for Regi; he was always a terrifically smart guy outside of his play), Loco was clearly having issues with it, among, apparently, a host of other things. Regi's stepping in for a reason. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On July 18 2015 07:46 Caiada wrote: If I could be serious for a moment.... The whole point of a coach, especially in a game as mechanics- and synergy-centric as league, is so that your players do not have to focus on shit outside of mechanics and synergy. You give them a general strategy, especially a pick-ban strategy, and they focus on executing it and having the mechanics to play at a high enough level for what you picked to be relevant. It's not just a sixth voice to bounce shit off of. Underselling coaching is the quickest way to make sure your team sucks vs any relevant team. He should be researching heavily, he should know Warmog's is terrifically inefficient, he should know that an Olaf ban over Azir is a poor strategy. He should know that Ez has lost every lane he's ever been in, no matter what Bjerg says. It'd be foolish to blame everything on hierarchy, but as Regi says (I've got a lot of respect for Regi; he was always a terrifically smart guy outside of his play), Loco was clearly having issues with it, among, apparently, a host of other things. Regi's stepping in for a reason. Well guess what, the entire competitive scene seems to be in the dark about Warmogs sucking. Although while I don't watch a ton of China, I watch the majority of NA, EU, and Korea. I can remember only a singular occasion where a non-support built Face, and that was Dandy when he was playing Nunu. That's more an issue of the competitive scene than it is of Loco in particular. I know we as LL have come to this conclusion almost unanimously, but we also don't have the prevailing outlook on the state of the game. As for Olaf, there might have been a solid reasoning for banning it. Without access to scrim footage, saying otherwise. The problem was not banning Azir and then to not follow it up by a first pick, opting for a Gragas that Santorin did dick with anyway. Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
To be honest, it's also not really rocket science to read that Warmog's isn't efficient unless you're making a lot of use of HP5, that selling your ridiculously efficient gold item for a lategame Randuin's (and Ruby Sightstone, Jesus, Lustboy) is a poor choice, or that your top should probably build some MR before he finishes half the armor items in the game vs 2 and a half APs. So, I wonder, what was their job beforehand? I didn't see the results of them doing anything. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out. That's arguably, but regardless, his job is to make sure he has the required information. And that could be to do tell his analyst to study item builds/makre sure his players are aware of the optimal ways to play specific champions. Stuff like this almost always goes back to the head coach/boss (and yes you could argue it also goes back to Reginald for hiring Loco in the first place or stepping up too late). | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On July 18 2015 08:44 Caiada wrote: I'm not in the business of pointing out who specifically was fucking up in their analyst team, but I would like for the guy calling himself head coach to be at least mostly accountable for a game-losing draft and some truly baffling item choices To be honest, it's also not really rocket science to read that Warmog's isn't efficient unless you're making a lot of use of HP5, that selling your ridiculously efficient gold item for a lategame Randuin's (and Ruby Sightstone, Jesus, Lustboy) is a poor choice, or that your top should probably build some MR before he finishes half the armor items in the game vs 2 and a half APs. So, I wonder, what was their job beforehand? I didn't see the results of them doing anything. He has pinned a lot of their issues on the draft in last week's episode and accepted that the p/b were bad in this weeks. Item choices rely solely on the player unless he specifically mentions something. That is something a coach has 0 control of and can't act on outside of trying to figure out why it was built, and if the reasoning is garbage, to tell him to not do something like that. They both temporarily went from satellite analysts to inhouse for IEM Kato, which was the first world encompassing international tournament NA, or even the West, has won in a long time. On July 18 2015 08:57 Hider wrote: That's arguably, but regardless, his job is to make sure he has the required information. And that could be to do tell his analyst to study item builds/makre sure his players are aware of the optimal ways to play specific champions. Stuff like this almost always goes back to the head coach/boss (and yes you could argue it also goes back to Reginald for hiring Loco in the first place or stepping up too late). There's this lovely phrase that goes "You don't know what you don't know." He might not know that he should have the analysts look into whether or not Warmogs is garbage against an Magic centric comp after building MR. But he sure as hell can look around and see something that fits the same niche of "butt ton of health" isn't being built by people all over the competitive scene. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 18 2015 08:21 Gahlo wrote: Well guess what, the entire competitive scene seems to be in the dark about Warmogs sucking. Although while I don't watch a ton of China, I watch the majority of NA, EU, and Korea. I can remember only a singular occasion where a non-support built Face, and that was Dandy when he was playing Nunu. That's more an issue of the competitive scene than it is of Loco in particular. I know we as LL have come to this conclusion almost unanimously, but we also don't have the prevailing outlook on the state of the game. As for Olaf, there might have been a solid reasoning for banning it. Without access to scrim footage, saying otherwise. The problem was not banning Azir and then to not follow it up by a first pick, opting for a Gragas that Santorin did dick with anyway. Loco's job isn't to do research, that is for Parth and Dylan to figure out. If you can't Gragas firstpick for your jungler, thats not a coaching problem. If you can't give away Azir, thats not a coaching problem. Just looking at the T8 and TL games. The coaching problems were: T8- Giving up Kalista, First Rotation 2 tanks not named Maokai and Gragas, and maybe they should have gone for Azir instead of one of Vi/Jinx in Rotation 2; TL- I prefer annie over shen for their comp, or Janna. That was an execution loss though. The Corki rocket baron, ffs. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On July 18 2015 09:00 cLutZ wrote: If you can't Gragas firstpick for your jungler, thats not a coaching problem. If you can't give away Azir, thats not a coaching problem. Just looking at the T8 and TL games. The coaching problems were: T8- Giving up Kalista, First Rotation 2 tanks not named Maokai and Gragas, and maybe they should have gone for Azir instead of one of Vi/Jinx in Rotation 2; TL- I prefer annie over shen for their comp, or Janna. That was an execution loss though. The Corki rocket baron, ffs. It is when the coach is involved in pick/bans and is supposed to have an influence on it. Gragas isn't worth first picking on TSM because Santorin barely does anything during lane phase. Why put priority on that when you could easily set up the star mid laner on the team with clearly a top 3 mid pick, that he's good on, and the opposing mid specializes on? TSM's pickban has been lackluster at best for a while now. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
Maybe it is impossible for a guy like Locodoco to be a real coach for gamers in his peer group and they need Regi because he is feared. | ||
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